MD-11-was It Failure Or Success

daddad525 · Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:44 am

Looking at sites, it appears that many are put out to grass or converted to freighters.

For a relatively new plane it seems odd.

What has lead to its demise and also MD/Douglas?

KDTWflyer · Fri Oct 29, 2004 5:05 am

From what I remember, the MD-11 failed to fulfill its projected capabilities of range vs payload and accordingly was not a cost effective aircraft. I think it has done quite well in the air cargo role because of its increased payload over the DC-10 and also because of its two-man cockpit. Im not sure but maybe this led to the development of the MD-10.

BR715-A1-30 · Fri Oct 29, 2004 5:05 am

The MD-11 was an economic failure. Fuel Burn was greater than predicted, and it was also coming out in the age of twin-jets and ETOPS. Nobody wanted the MD-11 when the 767 and A330 was already flying.

erikwilliam · Fri Oct 29, 2004 5:08 am

But U still have some airlines flying them. Maybe for pax traffic wasn´t good, but seems a great one for cargo.

Clipper002 · Fri Oct 29, 2004 5:49 am

We have 8 in pax configuration and 3 freighters. If we could get our hands on some more freighters, they'd be sold tomorrow. Unfortunately, there's about a 9 month backlog in conversions from pax to cargo. For most of the long haul flying that they do, you need at least a 3 man crew. As a pax a/c they absolutely stink. They require a high degree of maintenance upkeep and as has been said earlier, their fuel burn is quite high for the payload that can be carried. Of course we do some pretty unique flying that only something like an MD-11ER can accomplish. The 777ER could beat the stage lengths now but the cost is far greater than what we leased the MD-11's for. AMC loves the planes because we can haul far greater payloads over longer distances than virtually anything else they can get their hands on. Even the UA 744's and Co 777's can't duplicate the payload, primarily because they're already in dual or triple configurations and have limited seating.

Ed

SATL382G · Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:00 am

Clipper002,

How is the termination of the AMC Patriot Express flights going to impact Worlds MD11 fleet?

SATL382G

Clipper002 · Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:09 am

SATL382G
It sure won't help any, but we expect an increase in what is called fixed expansion flying. Hopefully that will offset the loss of Patriot Express. It sure was nice while it lasted.

Ed

ATA L1011 · Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:05 am

BR715,

The MD-11 was ineed in service and flying before the A330, Late 1990 the M11 entered service, Late 1993 for the A330.

daddad525 · Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:27 am

The MD11 was not going well but when the SWR went down off Nova Scotia, it was the end of it.

Strangely I went on a DC10 after the ORD crash in 1979. Somehow the DC10 still seems to have a longer life.

boo25 · Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:44 am

I think the MD-11 was a remarkable aircraft, its a real shame it didn't see longer than 10 (mainly) years in passenger service.

Unfortunately for the programme, just after its launch, the 767-300ER came along , then the A330 and probably the A340 and 777 played apart too.

Newer,more efficient airliners - and of course the MD-11 was really a DC-10 ,with a fuselage plug,winglets and an EFIS flightdeck.

A lovely machine, a good idea (at the time) - nothing else was in its class briefly, but sadly quickly left behind Sad

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LMP737 · Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:53 am

The MD-11 was the victim of McDonnell Douglas disease. That is spending little money as possible on the commercial line thinking that you by doing so you would have a higher profit margin. As history has shown by doing so MD doomed the MD-11 to commercial failure. If they had spent the money on a new wing, other aerodynamic improvements and possibly ever fly-by-wire the MD-11 might have been a sucses. Or at least they would have broke even.

MD11LuxuryLinr · Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:27 pm

Well said, LMP737.. and oh so correct. If MDD spent the money, even on just a new wing to give it the promised range, sales would have been a lot better..

BTW, I don't think SR111 was the end of the MD11. The T7 as well as other more efficient/longer range (A330/340) jets pretty much sealed it's fate in the years before the accident.

MD11Engineer · Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:45 pm

The fly-by-cable system on the MD-11 rarely gives problems ( in almost two years working on this plane every day I never had one).
Problem areas are sloppily routed wiring and piping, e.g. causing hydraulic leaks through cracked pipes.
On point is e.g. the fuel quantity system, where there are often problems with the wiring inside the tanks (no danger of an explosion, these are only digital data lines with about 3 volts on them), causing delays for dipsticking.
The wiring/plumbing issues are adressed by various EOs, as I said most of them derive from sloppy work at the factory.
Another thing (but I´ve seen this problem on many modern "electronic" planes) is that the computers occasionaly get hung up (just like your PC at home). The typical fix is rebooting the computer by cycling power or the respective C/B.
Then the remote controlled circuit breakers for the fuel pumps are a PITA. They are essentially big relays in the AC bus cabinets in the center accessory compartment, which control the power to the boost and transfer pumps, so that the power wiring doesn´t have to be routed up to the cockpit. They occasionally tend to get stuck in the open position. I understand that this problem derives from the unit being the old DC-10 analog relays having been converted by adding some logic (flip flop etc) into a digital relay. They are just not very reliable, but on the other hand, the plane has a lot of redundacy.

Having a bit of experience on the MD-11, I´ve got to say that by now I can fix most problems on a turnaround without too much trouble and usually get the plane out on time.

I would like to have some input from other MD-11 maintenance/engineering people.

Jan

daddad525 · Fri Oct 29, 2004 2:44 pm

Clipper 002

If you have 8 pax MD11s, do you make any money from them and how?

bill142 · Fri Oct 29, 2004 2:55 pm

I don't think it was helped much by SQ cancelling an order when it failed to achieve what MDD claimed it could.

daddad525 · Fri Oct 29, 2004 5:20 pm

It would seem from the forum it is either freighter or a relaxing life in the desert for the MD11.

Vikingair · Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:23 pm

MD11engineer,

I agree with you about the RCCB's and the poorly made/designed hydraulic system on the MD-11. It makes for sure the need of a Hyd Swedging tool at your station a must. The rebooting is very common and by either down powering the a/c or resetting cb's cures many a "fault" displayed due to hung up computers.

MD11Engineer · Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:36 pm

We just rynglock swaged a new piece of pipe into a #2 hydraulic line on the rear spar of the horizontal stabilizer, right behind the elevator feel mechanism, in the aft accessory compartment last week. The reason was an improperly made permaswage swage, which was leaking whenever the 3-2 NRMP was powered.

Concerning the problem with hung computers, I´ve seen the same on B767s and 757s as well as A300s. The more computerised a plane becomes, the more often you´ve got these glitches.

Jan

Carpethead · Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:52 pm

MD-11 has had five hull losses for just 200 production aircraft. That's abnormally high considering recent trends in safety. One loss is attrubuted to the most unsafe airline in the world (Mandarin - China Airlines) which has destroyed at least one aircraft for every aircraft it has operated. (That said they have yet to crash a A333, A343 or 738.)

The 777 has zero hull losses and production airframes approaching 500.
That said I wouldn't go out of my way to avoid a MD-11 flight.
As for appearance, it's still my favorite airliner.

I tend to believe it's a successful airliner because 20 years down the line, the majority will still be hauling cargo while the early model A340 will be scrapped.

NIKV69 · Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:45 pm

The MD-11 did cost too much to operate but I love fyling them! I fly VARIG JFK-GRU and I think that plane is awesome!

Clipper002 · Fri Oct 29, 2004 9:57 pm

Daddad525
Yes, we do make money from them. AMC pays very, very well as does Sonair. The leases on 803 and 804 are virtually power by the hour so they're profitable too. We're one of a handfull of airlines that has shown a profit over the past 2 years and this year looks to be a record for us.

Ed

tjcab · Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:13 am

Daddad525, the DC-10 didn't have as much competition. From the mid 80's, twins had become increasingly popular. Airlines had a lot more to choose from

daddad525 · Sat Oct 30, 2004 5:24 am

Yes, I agree that the Md11 was a plane in the wrong time. If MD could have re-modelled the DC10 after its' early history and made it profitable there may have been a chance. But we seem to say on this forum is...the future is freighters?

Ed whats with Clipper 002? That was a flight that went the wrong way round the world

Jerry

Boeing Nut · Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:21 am

I personally think that the 777 killed the MD-11.

LMP737 · Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:33 am

MD11engineer:

When I mentioned fly-by-wire for the MD-11 I had weight savings more in mind than reliability. As far as systems go the flight control cables are the pretty the most reliable part of the aircraft. Just like you I have never really run into a problem with them.

Carpethead:

In the case of Swiss Air 111 the cause of the accident was traced to an in-flight entertainment system that was installed after the plane was delivered. In addition it was wired into 115VAC Bus 2 so when the pilots selected CABIN BUS off guess what, the system was still powered. Then there's the insulation that caught fire, the same type of insulation found in other types off aircraft at the time. The Manadarin Airlines MD-11 crashed after the crew decided to try and land in a tropical storm. Then there's the Fed Ex MD-11 at the bottom of Subic Bay because the crew landed a bit long.

daddad525 · Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:25 am

I agree with the forum; the MD11 came between the DC10/L1011 period and the maybe more refinded 767/777. Therefore it lost out. So the future must be, as Ed has said, a cost effective freighter, bearing in mind that airlines do not want to operate in pax configuration and therefore a cheaper capital/lease cost to put them into cargo a/c despite the long wait for conversion.

Any thoughts of who will keep operating them; either pax or cargo?

Jerry

Sorry for 2 therefores in one sentance.

b741 · Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:51 am

Did they raise the one at the bottom of the bay? Also, there was an Alitalia MD-11 written off at JFK last year.

daddad525 · Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:16 pm

Guess that a couple of hulls mean nothing.

Ed on these pages has got the world at his feet.

But Ed don't buy any that have that have ended up in the sea. You cannot put a MD11 in the tumble-dryer.

Good luck to you all Jerry

SLUAviator · Sun Oct 31, 2004 4:16 am

There are lots of things that led to the end of the MD-11, but the biggest was the nice big engine in the tail. It was designed in the era of the two engine long haul jet which in and of itself was going to be the end of the MD-11. Why would you want a jet that costs more to operate and would not even perform up to what management claimed it would? Had it cost more to operate but blown away everything else in performance you would have seen people buying it.

Its a shame though, they really look awesome when they fly.

I heard a rumor at work at ORD the other day.... I heard tomorrow (10/31) Swiss' last revenue MD-11 flight is into O'Hare. Anybody know if that is true?

b741 · Sun Oct 31, 2004 5:09 am

Yes, tomorrow is the last Swiss MD-11 flight. I think there was a post about it last month.

dl757md · Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:55 am

MD11Engineer

Do the MD-11s you work on have the upper and lower aux tanks and the aux tanks in the aft cargo bin like the longer range DL MD-11s? The Wiggens fittings on the fuel lines to and from them were always leaking and filling the shrouds up with fuel. We had the same problem on the lines for the tail tank. Sometimes the shrouds would leak and you'd get complaints of fuel smell in the cabin. It was always a real pain to TS these problems due to the location of the lines and sometimes they set the plane down for days. I really liked CMDU with all the sysytem synoptics pages. Made TSing those systems easier. Also I felt like it was the easiest plane to push into the taildock because you just line the center gear and the nose gear on the line and push it back.

Dl757Md

MD11LuxuryLinr · Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:07 am

Finnair and KLM both will have then for some time. IIRC, KLM plans to keep them until either 2008 or 2012(?).. Sorry, I can't remember. Big grin

cicadajet · Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:38 am

I remember a sarcastic comment from AA Management that they ought to paint their MD-11s blue (to match their ground equipment) as they had so much trouble with them.

I imagine we'll see Finnair flying them in pax service for some time, as they have later models.

daddad525 · Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:19 am

So Ed. with only 3 airlines operating them through the decade, you shoukd get a good deal on any acquisitions.

Jerry

Dakota · Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:36 am

A KLM MD-11-pilot told me a few weeks ago that they will have the type until 2012. KLM will replace the MD-11 gradually by the Boeing 777 and the A330-200. I don't think they have plans to retire the first MD-11 very soon.

6thfreedom · Mon Nov 01, 2004 10:48 am

TG also has 4 MD11's.
I understand that they plan to phase them out over the next 18 months, as they take delivery of B777 and A340's.

TG has made some noise recently about increasing their focus on cargo.
I wonder if they will convert them and keep them for their own cargo ops.
wise move in my opinion...

apollo13 · Mon Nov 01, 2004 2:03 pm

It was a very spacious aircraft. I was lucky to fly one of Deltas MD-11's when i was a freshman flying to france with my Marching Band. I will cry the day the last PAX MD-11 leaves service.

Clipper002 · Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:23 pm

Daddad525
Clipper 002 did indeed travel around the world to the East. Clipper 001 had the reverse pattern. The a/c assigned to 002 always came out of a maintenance check and operated 132/133 JFK/BDA/JFK. It got back into JFK with a 21/2 hour turn to 002. The reasoning was that the BDA trip would be a shakedown flight before the a/c headed off for its' 56 hour trip around the world.

As for WO looking for add'l MD-11's, we are only looking for freighters. The pax market for such a large a/c has dropped off severly over the past 2 years. It's very hard to sell a 400 seat a/c these days. As stated earlier, there is a big backlog for conversions to cargo.

Ed

daddad525 · Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:43 am

Ed- with the ideas put up, buy some freighters, buy soms pax and convert for 9-12 mths at a good price.

In a year you will be winning.

Jerry (Clippper 1 Heavy) LHR 1970

Clipper002 · Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:05 pm

Jerry,
I agree completely. We have a BOD meeting today and tomrrow here in good old Peachtree City. Let you knpw what comes out of it.

Ed

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