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trijetfan1
Topic Author
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Flights With Fuel Stops

Sun Nov 14, 2004 12:12 pm

Simple question: What long range flights have to stop for fuel?
Earned PPL June 26, 2007
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
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RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Sun Nov 14, 2004 12:32 pm

I believe SA210/SA212 have fuel stops in SID enroute to CPT and JNB. At least they are referred to as "technical" stops on the SA flight plans. Personally, I don't know why the 744 had no problem making the crossing over the Atlantic without a stop, but the "new" A346 does. That little banter aside, does anyone know exactly how the planes cross the Pond? The crossing from lower Florida straight across or even from Brazil straight across to Africa are very large and don't seem to leave much room for alternate airports if something happens midway through. At least when crossig the N. Atlantic, you have Canda, Greenland, Iceland, etc, etc. With the exceptions of the Azores and the Canary Islands, I do not believe the ocean is dotted with islands like the Pacific is.

Any info is appreciated.

Otto
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Sun Nov 14, 2004 12:32 pm

With the long range 747s, 777s and A340s, fuel stops are no longer necessary for the most part. The most notable flights that have fuel stops are SA's flights between South Africa and the USA. They stop in the Cape Verde islands or other African destinations.

Other flights are South Asia and Southeast Asian flights to the USA. With the exception of YYZ-DEL, EWR-SIN and LAX-SIN, all the flights have to stop somewhere for fuel. Singapore Airlines and Thai Airways stop in HKG, TPE, SEL, NRT and elsewhere on their way to the US and USA-India/Pakistan flights go through Europe like CDG, AMS, LHR, MAN etc. These flights don't technically have technical fuel stops, but do stop for fuel and to pick up remaining passengers.

There are few flights that need these stop overs. And with the coming of the 772LR and A345, almost every single one of these flights can be operated nonstop even though they would push 16 hours and more. Many charter flights involve tech stops for fuel because many of them use equipment that is not ideal for the specific routes. You will often see 757s, and smaller planes doing intercontinental flights for charters, so they usually stopover in order to make the flights because charters don't invest in many brand new planes that have the extra long range flight capabilities.

[Edited 2004-11-14 04:35:38]
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
aa777jr
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RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Sun Nov 14, 2004 12:36 pm

My brother flys on business for Bestbuy Inc. and had a trip a few months ago up to MSP. On his way back from the west coast, he had to land at DLH because they were running out of fuel and couldn't quite make it to MSP. First time I've ever heard of that happening.

AA777jr
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:25 pm

NZ 001
LHR-LAX-AKL
Boeing 747-400

LAX is the fuel stop in this case.
 
N1120A
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RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:33 pm

>My brother flys on business for Bestbuy Inc. and had a trip a few months ago up to MSP. On his way back from the west coast, he had to land at DLH because they were running out of fuel and couldn't quite make it to MSP. First time I've ever heard of that happening.<

There was actually a post on this a few months ago, though I am not a search nazi and will just tell what I learned. The airline flying the flight miscalculated the load vs. weather vs. winds and did not put enough fuel on board when they started the flight. This happened with a KL 777 that had to stop on SNN on the way from SFO to AMS.


>Personally, I don't know why the 744 had no problem making the crossing over the Atlantic without a stop, but the "new" A346 does<

Ask Neil Big grin. Actually, the reason the A346 (and 744) have to stop on the way up to the US is because JNB is a hot, high airport. Even though there is plenty of runway there, they still burn too much fuel in the thin air and have to stop. On the way back down (at least with the 744) does not stop
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
vtdl
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RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:54 pm


This was many years ago flying from SFO to HKG. It was a stormy winter night. The pilot came on said the head wing was really strong and we might have to stop in TPE for fuel. Luckily, we didn't.

The second one was told to me by a friend. Before AA flies 777 from SJC to NRT, it used to fly MD11, but SJC's runway was too short for a fully loaded MD11 to take off. So, it would fly to OAK (like 5 minutes away), land, and fuel before continuing to NRT. Can anyone else confirm this?
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Sun Nov 14, 2004 8:38 pm

Before AA flies 777 from SJC to NRT, it used to fly MD11, but SJC's runway was too short for a fully loaded MD11 to take off. So, it would fly to OAK (like 5 minutes away), land, and fuel before continuing to NRT. Can anyone else confirm this?

Why didn't they fly from OAK, then? Instead of wasting fuel on two take-offs?
 
PJS800
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RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:21 am

My grandparents were flying on CO EWR-HNL a few years back and had to make a stop in SFO for more fuel. They told me the pilots had said the head winds were very strong and if they didn't get more they may not make HNL. Always better to be safe than sorry.

PJ
 
EZYAirbus
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RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:26 am

QF?? SYD-SIN-LHR???

Glenn
http://www.glenneldridgeaviation.com
 
dogfighter2111
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RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:48 am

Yeah, Singapore Airlines, Perth to Singapore to Heathrow.

Malaysian Airlines, Perth to Airport in Malasyia  Nuts to Heathrow.
 
dl757md
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RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:00 am

Actually, the reason the A346 (and 744) have to stop on the way up to the US is because JNB is a hot, high airport. Even though there is plenty of runway there, they still burn too much fuel in the thin air and have to stop.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the higher and hotter the less fuel you can burn.
Fuel flow rate is affected by density altitude. The less air you have the less fuel you can burn. You have less thrust which is part of why you need a longer runway along with higher rotation speeds. The difference based on temp alone would be negligible as the amount of work remains the same to get a plane to a given cruise altitude. A higher starting altitude would actually decrease the work needed to get the same plane to the same altitude. The reason it takes more fuel JNB-US than US-JNB is because of the prevailing westerly winds.

Dl757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
SA7700
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RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:10 am

OttoPylit

All SAA flights headed to ATL stop over in SID for both fuel-replenishment and crew swaps. Likewise all the JFK bound flights (SA203) stop in DKR.

SA202 goes non-stop JFK-JNB 4x weekly, while SA204 goes from JFK-JNB via DKR 3 times weekly.

As far as my knowledge goes, both the 744 and A346 has payload restrictions going non-stop ATL-JNB/CPT during the Northern hemisphere summer. At this stage it's not the case and flights from ATL can go non-stop to South Africa. The airline opting for a "technical stop" ATL-JNB/CPT during the Northern Hemisphere summer, in order to carry maximum cargo and pax.

As far as I remember (from the inflight display anyway); flights go over as the crow fly. E.g. Directly from CPT-SID-ATL.

Rgds

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:51 am

>>>My brother flys on business for Bestbuy Inc. and had a trip a few months ago up to MSP. On his way back from the west coast, he had to land at DLH because they were running out of fuel and couldn't quite make it to MSP. First time I've ever heard of that happening.

With all due respect to both the original poster and 1120a (for his comments), I think the conclusions are inaccurate. I have to note that Duluth is 135 miles -NORTHEAST- of MSP, and if one is coming into MSP from the west coast (especially California), that means that one has to pretty much overfly MSP to get to Duluth. Accordingly, the statement that they "couldn't quite make it to MSP" doesn't make sense operationally. In other words, if they had fuel to get to Duluth, they had enough fuel for MSP.

What "probably" happened (in that it makes more operational sense) was thay they received holding instructions someplace W or SW of MSP. If they only had fuel for :30 of holding and they actually were issued :45 of holding, they're going to divert somewhere after that :30 is up, and Duluth sounds like it was the alternate.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
afay1
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RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:08 am

Russian transcon flights regularly involve fuel stops depending on equipment, load, and prevailing winds.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:13 am

Simple question: What long range flights have to stop for fuel?

We don't see it much any more with the advent of the NG 737's, but in years past, with CLE's shorter runways, and using 733's and even MD-80's to LAX and SFO, those flight were often weight-restricted to the point that they had to make fuel stops in places like IND, MCI, OMA, etc, to carry a full load of passengers, fuel, bags, cargo, etc.

Back in the early 90's, in fact, 6R 24L was completely torn out and redone. We were running MD-80's to LAX, SFO back then. They hold 141 customers, and, often that summer, we couldn't carry more than 70 pax even WITH a fuel stop, because of the limitations of runway/aircraft.

Also, fuel stops can still occur occasionally on very hot, dry, wind-free days, even with the NG's and longer runways.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
aa777jr
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RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:14 am

N1120a,

I don't know about that post you read about but I'm thinking my brother said they had to fly around MSP for longer than expected cause they couldn't land for weather and wind reasons so they diverted to DLH to get fuel. They then took off and landed at MSP where he had another long freaking delay. I picked him up from AUS at like 330a. Still would be unerving to hear the pilot come on the pa and tell you they are running out of fuel and need to divert to get more.

AA777jr
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
SQno1
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RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:12 am

Well last summer my charter flight from SOU to TFS on JK was scheduled to have a fuel stop in Nantes, but because the flight was tow hours late it was changed to SCQ.
 
MADtoCAE
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RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:30 am

Iberia has a stop on the flight from Quito-Madrid,I think the stop was BOG but I might be wrong,I don't know.I read it has a stop because they can't fly out of Quito with a full fuel tank due to the shortness of the RWY.
Operator!!! Give me the number for 911!!
 
RogerThat
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RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:23 am

Why didn't they fly from OAK, then? Instead of wasting fuel on two take-offs?

AA's route authority was from SJC to NRT, so they didn't have the option to choose the departure airport.
 
planenutz
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RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:31 am

Interflug's Berlin to Hanoi service. In 1980, flight 910 departed Berlin SXF at 8:55am and stopped enroute at Moscow-Tashkent-Karachi-Dacca and arrived at Hanoi at 3:00pm the next day. Tashkent and Karachi were tech stops only. The flight was operated with a 100 seat IL-18!  Big thumbs up

Even though IF had IL-62s in its fleet a the time it opted for the IL-18 turboprop. Interestingly, the flight didn't take as long as it otherwise could have because IF was allowed to traverse USSR airspace.
Not all who wander are lost....
 
KBGRbillT
Posts: 138
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RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:05 am

Hot, high airports = less air density, which in turn means less lift is generated by the wing. Therefore, lower MTOW's are req'd and more takeoff speed is req'd to take off and get airborne. That takes additional fuel. Hope this straightens things out.
 
JET1977
Posts: 62
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 5:17 am

RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:13 am

PAL 105 & PAL 115. Both flights operate SFO-MNL. I know there is a scheduled stop in HNL for fuel or other reasons whick I am not sure of. There have been times when ATC had issued clearances to PAL MNL-bound flights without the stopover in HNL.
My $.02
 
ETStar
Posts: 1850
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RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:25 am

Ethiopian Airlines' flight from ADD-IAD has a regular fuel stop at Rome FCO. No pax are transported between FCO-IAD and FCO-ADD on those flights. This is in part due to the fact that ET's largest aircraft is the 763, and I am not sure whether or not it would be economically feasible to opereate a 777 nonstop considering ADD's location and the demand. According to great circle mapper, this tech stop adds only 92 miles to the total trip... I guess it also eliminates the added cost of having two sets of crew, their added weight + rest area, and having to lodge them all at IAD when it can be cheaper to do so at FCO and schedule them to work along ET's ADD-FCO-LHR/AMS/ARN flights...

ADD (08°58'38"N 38°48'00"E) IAD (38°56'40"N 77°27'21"W) 7193 mi
2 segment path: 7285 mi
ADD (08°58'38"N 38°48'00"E) FCO (41°48'16"N 12°15'03"E) 2779 mi
FCO (41°48'16"N 12°15'03"E) IAD (38°56'40"N 77°27'21"W) 4505 mi



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JoKeR
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RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:40 am

JAT used to stop in Dubai and Singapore on its way to Sydney and Melbourne.

These days, Beirut serves as both a technical and a "commercial" stop on Jat's services to Dubai. I believe that this is also one of the longest flights operated today with a Boeing 737-300, being over 7 hours long in total. Mighty "long-range" for a 733!
 
luisde8cd
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RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:50 am

Iberia has a stop on the flight from Quito-Madrid,I think the stop was BOG but I might be wrong,I don't know.I read it has a stop because they can't fly out of Quito with a full fuel tank due to the shortness of the RWY.

If Im not mistaken that flight goes Madrid-Guayaquil-Quito-Guayaquil-Madrid. Since Guayaquil is at sea level and has a long runway, it works great as a stop for the flights between Quito and Madrid. Equipment: A343
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:52 am

all flights ex Oz to Europe with BA, QF and NG all stop enroute for juice.
 
iluv747400
Posts: 298
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2000 8:12 am

RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:55 am

A number of Asian carriers make stops on Westbound (and some Eastbound) flights to the Eastern seaboard of North America.

- Asiana's JFK-ICN stops in ANC (Westbound only).
- One of Korean Air's JFK-ICN flights stops in ANC in both directions (the other is non-stop), but KE does sell tickets for the ICN-ANC portion.
- China Airlines' JFK-TPE flights stop in ANC in both directions and it also sells tickets in and out of ANC.
- Cathay Pacific's HKG-YYZ flights stop in ANC in both directions but only as technical stop.
- Philippines Airlines' LAX-MNL and SFO-MNL flights make a technical stop in HNL.
 
miguel0881
Posts: 123
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:12 pm

I'm booked on China Airlines next month LAX-TPE, and was surprised to hear it has a fuel stop in ANC (only on the westbound portion). The agent told me it was b/c of the headwinds this time of year. This was surprising b/c other airlines (Malaysian, etc.) do the same flight at the same time of the year without stopping...any reason why China Airlines makes this stop?
 
miguel0881
Posts: 123
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Flights With Fuel Stops

Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:16 pm

Regarding the question of SA's route from the US to South Africa...when I flew ATL-CPT in July, we departed the United States over South Carolina, overflew Bermuda, and then headed straight for SID, down the African coast, and into CPT.

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