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WesternDC1010
Topic Author
Posts: 309
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 9:29 am

Southwest BUR-ONT Flights Tonight 11/14/04

Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:39 pm

I've noticed that there were at least 2 WN flights earlier this evening within 45 to 1 hours of each other both departing from BUR with flights to ONT. Could this be a repositioning of equipment or diversions of the Santa Ana winds blowing here in the Los Angeles area?

- Ron
Western DC-10-10
Western Airlines - The Only Way To Fly
 
Big777jet
Posts: 2682
Joined: Mon May 01, 2000 10:52 am

RE: Southwest BUR-ONT Flights Tonight 11/14/04

Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:09 pm

Oh jeez!! I see about 10 of them BUR-ONT!!! Maybe it could be low fuel in BUR or problem fuel system at BUR? It looks like SWA get some more fuel in ONT before heading to OAK or other cities..

Here I took one copy from flight tracking:

Airline Southwest
Flight Number 2338
Departure City (Airport) Burbank, CA (BUR)
Departure Time 11/15/2004 11:31 AM
Arrival City (Airport) Oakland, CA (OAK)
Arrival Time 11/15/2004 12:29 PM
Remaining Flight Time 00:58 (scheduled)
Aircraft Type
Current Altitude 0 feet
Current Groundspeed 0 mph
Flight Status Scheduled

Airline Southwest
Flight Number 2338
Departure City (Airport) Ontario, CA (ONT)
Departure Time 11/14/2004 12:30 PM
Arrival City (Airport) Oakland, CA (OAK)
Arrival Time 11/14/2004 01:30 PM
Remaining Flight Time 00:00
Aircraft Type Boeing 737-300
Current Altitude 0 feet
Current Groundspeed 0 mph
Flight Status Arrived

Airline Southwest
Flight Number 2338
Departure City (Airport) Burbank, CA (BUR)
Departure Time 11/14/2004 11:52 AM
Arrival City (Airport) Ontario, CA (ONT)
Arrival Time 11/14/2004 12:01 PM
Remaining Flight Time 00:00
Aircraft Type Boeing 737-300
Current Altitude 0 feet
Current Groundspeed 0 mph
Flight Status Arrived


It's very strange occured that day. Is anyone can tell us what was happen in BUR airport?

Stuart





[Edited 2004-11-15 07:15:01]
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Southwest BUR-ONT Flights Tonight 11/14/04

Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:22 pm

I wasn't at work today, but if I had to venture a guess based on the weather there at the time (see below), I'd suspect some possible severe turbulence or bad low-level windshear that precluded arrivals for awhile. Winds were gusting up to 25 knots, with crosswinds to either 08 or 33. With terrain NE of the airport, and the winds from the NE, the airport would been in the lee of it all...


KBUR 142353Z 04012KT 10SM CLR 24/01 A2999 RMK AO2 SLP145 T02390006 10250 20206 55006
KBUR 142253Z 04017G24KT 10SM CLR 24/01 A2999 RMK AO2 PK WND 03030/2159 SLP146 T02390006
KBUR 142153Z 04014G25KT 10SM CLR 24/01 A3000 RMK AO2 PK WND 02026/2135 SLP147 T02440006
KBUR 142053Z 02012G25KT 10SM CLR 24/01 A3001 RMK AO2 PK WND 03026/2031 SLP151 T02440006 56018
KBUR 141953Z 02014G21KT 10SM CLR 24/01 A3002 RMK AO2 SLP155 T02390011
KBUR 141853Z 02014G19KT 10SM CLR 23/01 A3004 RMK AO2 SLP163 T02330011
KBUR 141753Z 14005KT 10SM CLR 22/03 A3006 RMK AO2 SLP169 T02170033 10217 20106 50013
KBUR 141653Z 06004KT 10SM CLR 19/04 A3006 RMK AO2 SLP171 T01940039
KBUR 141553Z 35012KT 10SM CLR 17/03 A3005 RMK AO2 SLP165 T01720028
KBUR 141453Z 35014KT 10SM CLR 16/02 A3002 RMK AO2 SLP157 T01610022 53004
KBUR 141353Z 33012KT 10SM CLR 15/03 A3001 RMK AO2 SLP153 T01500028
KBUR 141253Z 35011KT 10SM CLR 15/03 A3000 RMK AO2 SLP151 T01500028
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Big777jet
Posts: 2682
Joined: Mon May 01, 2000 10:52 am

RE: Southwest BUR-ONT Flights Tonight 11/14/04

Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:40 pm

I don't understand why Southwest's planes stopping at ONT 10 of them today. It's not likely others airlines doesn't have any problem. I see Southwest flew to ONT within a few minutes later next flight Alaska #515 BUR-SEA is a B737-400 straight non stop. American MD80 nonstop to DFW, too. It must be problem SWA's low fuel supply. Maybe airlines pick different fuel company. I don't know how it happened and I don't know what SWA problem is. I hope someone will tell us to post if someone works at BUR or a friend at BUR.

Stuart

 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Southwest BUR-ONT Flights Tonight 11/14/04

Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:57 pm

Didn't realize there were -10- of them...

OK, just checked in at the office and here's the deal...

The problem was that the surface wind speed/direction at BUR resulted in runway 15 being out of tailwind limits. Runway 8 can't be used for departures (if the aircraft weighs more than 12,500, as the 737 obviously does), so that leaves runway 26 (also out of tailwind limits), and runway 33, and 33 was in use. The max takeoff weights off runway 33 are significantly lower than those provided by runway 15, and it came down to a choice between severely weight-restricting each flight and going non-stop, or taking everyone and making a fuel-stop at a close-by airport, i.e. ONT. Once the winds at BUR subsided, they went back to a normal operation...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
airplaneboy
Posts: 719
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 11:59 am

RE: Southwest BUR-ONT Flights Tonight 11/14/04

Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:42 pm

It's funny this topic came up because I was just at Fry's Electronics right next door to BUR and saw WN's planes taking off from RWY 33, which I've hardly seen. They sure climbed steep and banked away from the mountains to the north. Awesome site!!! Big grin
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4705
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: Southwest BUR-ONT Flights Tonight 11/14/04

Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:29 pm

Argh, the only bad thing about working the PM shift, is by the time I get home, someone has already posted exactly what I was going to post!! Haha..

This directly effected us at SJC tonight. Had a few delays because of it. Not too bad though. This could happen a lot in the coming weeks I suppose due to the holiday loads.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
WesternDC1010
Topic Author
Posts: 309
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 9:29 am

RE: Southwest BUR-ONT Flights Tonight 11/14/04

Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:07 pm

Thanks to all who replied to this. It was so strange to see:

1) a WN 737-300 flying in from the west over West Covina (where my parents live) inbound to ONT. I haven't seen traffic such as this since AS used to fly from BUR to ONT (and vice versa) back in the 80's using 727-200's and MD-80's.

2) When driving home on the westbound 134, to see a WN 737-300 take off to the south and make a left turn to the east and fly over Glendale and Pasadena on their way to ONT.

I guess I didn't know that there were quite so many today. I wonder what tomorrow holds.

- Ron
Western DC-10-10
Western Airlines - The Only Way To Fly
 
Big777jet
Posts: 2682
Joined: Mon May 01, 2000 10:52 am

RE: Southwest BUR-ONT Flights Tonight 11/14/04

Tue Nov 16, 2004 6:57 am

The problem was that the surface wind speed/direction at BUR resulted in runway 15 being out of tailwind limits. Runway 8 can't be used for departures (if the aircraft weighs more than 12,500, as the 737 obviously does), so that leaves runway 26 (also out of tailwind limits), and runway 33, and 33 was in use. The max takeoff weights off runway 33 are significantly lower than those provided by runway 15, and it came down to a choice between severely weight-restricting each flight and going non-stop, or taking everyone and making a fuel-stop at a close-by airport, i.e. ONT. Once the winds at BUR subsided, they went back to a normal operation...

I mentioned that I see Southwest flew to ONT within a few minutes later next flight Alaska #515 BUR-SEA is a B737-400 straight non stop. American MD80 nonstop to DFW, too.

Why are two of B737-400 and MD-80 have heavy fuel loads? They able to take off from BUR. The B737-300 is lighter load than B737-400. BUR-SEA is longer than Oakland route. What is the so specific problem with Southwest?

Stuart



 
Tom in NO
Posts: 6725
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 1999 10:10 am

RE: Southwest BUR-ONT Flights Tonight 11/14/04

Tue Nov 16, 2004 7:49 am

Living in Claremont and Azusa for many years, I recall many a time seeing AS flying their MD-80's from BUR to ONT. They'd skirt the south side of the San Gabriel Mountains, and do a downwind leg on the north side of ONT to land on the 26's.

I flew the reverse leg (ONT-BUR) while on a flight that ran ONT-BUR-PDX-SEA back in 1986 on an MD-80. Took off on ONT's 26R, then downwinded BUR to runway 8.

Tom at MSY
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Southwest BUR-ONT Flights Tonight 11/14/04

Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:30 am

>>>Why are two of B737-400 and MD-80 have heavy fuel loads? They able to take off from BUR. The B737-300 is lighter load than B737-400. BUR-SEA is longer than Oakland route. What is the so specific problem with Southwest?

What you're seeing is the concept of "variables" in action...

-Were their aircraft as "full" as SWA's flights? If they only had a fraction of the payload they may well have been able make it non-stop to a longer destination.

-Did they (the airlines or the aircraft themselves) have the same wind limitations? Was the max allowable 10 kts, or 15 kts?

-Did they have the same engine variants? A 737-300 with 26K or 27K engines performs differently (better) than one with 22K or 24K engines.

-With the windspeeds gusting, did the actual winds at a flight's departure time allow some takeoffs, and disallow others? RVR values flucuate above/below minimums (some make it in, some don't) and the same thing can happened with wind values.

Any one of these items (or others) either whole or in part could possibly explain things. There's a great misconception out there that an airliner is an airliner is an airliner, and that they're all identically interchangeable as far as performance capabilities are concerned. Not so...

Hope this helps...




[Edited 2004-11-16 00:42:17]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26574
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RE: Southwest BUR-ONT Flights Tonight 11/14/04

Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:16 pm

>A 737-300 with 26K or 27K engines performs differently (better) than one with 22K or 24K engines.<

OPNLguy, I don't usually doubt you, but isn't the highest power setting on the CFM-56 24,500 on a 733 or 73G?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Southwest BUR-ONT Flights Tonight 11/14/04

Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:27 pm

OPNLguy, I don't usually doubt you, but isn't the highest power setting on the CFM-56 24,500 on a 733 or 73G?


The highest engine option for the 733 is the CFM56-3C1 at a maximum thrust of 23,500 lbf.

The highest engine option for the 73G is the CFM56-7B26 at a maximum thrust of 26,300 lbf. I'm fairly sure this is available for the commercial 73G, as CFM shows the BBJ and 73G as two different aircraft.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Southwest BUR-ONT Flights Tonight 11/14/04

Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:22 pm

Sorry, I inadvertantly intermixed the engines from the Classics and NG variants with each other...

The essential point remains that different operators may have different engine types on otherwise "identical" aircraft that results in performance differences...

>>>The highest engine option for the 73G is the CFM56-7B26 at a maximum thrust of 26,300 lbf.

Unless I'm mistaken, the CFM56-7B27 is at 27,300 lbs. It's probably somewhere on CFM56.com. The ATA 737-800s that supposedly may be on the market have these...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5022
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: Southwest BUR-ONT Flights Tonight 11/14/04

Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:01 pm

It's also stated in their OpSpecs as to what they are allowed to do/not do.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 9065
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: Southwest BUR-ONT Flights Tonight 11/14/04

Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:38 pm

A pilot friend who flies for a major carrier once described being in DEN in some fierce conditions, including wind-related conditions in which his airline's rules would not permit the aircraft to take off. He and his airline's a/c were lined up waiting to take off when conditions improved, and he sat in the cockpit and watched another airline's aircraft (the one with Marge Simpson on the tail) taxi around them all and take off. He watched as that aircraft got hit with a (IIRC) 30-50 mph tailwind gust at rotation and the pilots struggled with and almost lost the aircraft. His point to me: not all airlines follow the same policies. They are all FAA-approved, but some airlines are more restrictive than others. Can't vouch for this, but makes sense, and may expalin what you saw today.

All the best,

Bill
 
wilax
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2002 2:39 pm

RE: Southwest BUR-ONT Flights Tonight 11/14/04

Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:44 pm

OK, why the weight restriction on 33? I know the mtns are there but you can make a left after takeoff like the hard right after taking off on 15. What's the diff?
 
airplaneboy
Posts: 719
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 11:59 am

RE: Southwest BUR-ONT Flights Tonight 11/14/04

Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:22 am

Wilax~

All of the WN aircraft I saw taking off on 33 that evening made hard lefts just after a STEEP initial climb.

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