Boo,

Thanks my friend. It seems that the only ones that understand crew members are crew members! My airline is not included on this list, but might as well be. I have to say, it´s very different when you get hired under a set of bad rules to having your rules changed (for the worse I must add) after you are used to doing things a certain way. And for everybody out there, I have to say this is not only a money issue. It´s an issue about regulations that govern everything from not having a meal to us provided on a 13 hour day with minimum connecting time and having to deal with customs, security, etc..... every time you go from one plane to the other; or getting to Bs Aires after a 4 hour delay, to have to drive 40 minutes to get to the hotel at noon, to sleep (right at midday) for 6 hours to get on the airplane completely alert and ready for any emergency that same night and fly all night back to the states.....

I think we need to sit and think. Everytime I see a negative comment towards F/A´s I can do nothing but wonder what was going on that day to that person. So think about this, and please dont tell me to then get out and quit my job, because I do love it, and I enjoy it!!!!!!!!!! But remember we are safety experts, and humans as well!

Gnomon:
Correct, NW's F/A's removed the Teamsters last year and formed their own, independent union, the PFAA.

I think we need to sit and think. Everytime I see a negative comment towards F/A´s I can do nothing but wonder what was going on that day to that person. So think about this, and please dont tell me to then get out and quit my job, because I do love it, and I enjoy it!!!!!!!!!! But remember we are safety experts, and humans as well!

Hmm, what happened to me lately? Well, both of my parents work for United. I'm going to college next year. They found out a week ago that UA wants another 11% from them, plus they want us to pay more for benefits. I'm sure you can put two and two together. F/As aren't alone, and they need to consider what they are doing to the lives of other "humans." We're all in the same boat. My parents have nowhere else to go. They have worked for United for 30 and 27 years, and now have to ride it out. If you love your job so much, take the pay cut. Striking will just hurt more people, and that won't win you any sympathy points. If anything, it will just lead more people to hate the F/As. If you want to help, take the cuts and get on with your lives. If you don't like the cuts, go work for another airline. Making your employer bleed sure as hell isn't going to get you a better salary, but rather, it will further destroy any remnants of good airline-union relations.

FriendlySkies,
You need to chill dude. And if Im asked for a paycut, something that hasnt happenned yet, but if it happens, I need to sit down, put the cards on the table and figure out what next step to take...... Im very sorry about your parents. At home it was 3 of us working for Eastern at the same time, while the management/union struggle was going on. And to all of my co-workers at AFA I wish them luck, whatever road they decide to take.

With the lousy attitudes and crappy service on US these days, I'm not sure anyone will miss them! The first thing most pepole will say is "Well, geez, the FAs are consistently getting short sheeted by management", etc. I will be the first to agree, and can understand the attitude - but present that attitude to your management not your passengers. If you want MEA Middle East Airlines (Lebanon)">ME to keep flying your airline, then I want good service (especially since I fly first not coach), I expect nothing out of the ordinary (notice I didn't say spectacular service), I despise being ignored. When this occurs, I am the first person to send management a letter attesting to the great service and the great flight, etc. I've sent hundreds. At least be personable - you don't ahve to hold a conversation with me, but when I say hello, I expect to recieve a response! Service throughout the US airline industry has gone into the toilet for the most part over the last 10-15 years. Why? Haven't a clue - I ride on the plaes I don't fly them and I don't work for their owners. I'm a VVFF, plenty of miles to prove it, I'm treated a bit better than the standard fly once a year tourist. I pity those folks in today's flying world.

ANCFlyer,

Generalizing is not good. As a F/A having received the highest passenger service award available at my company, I realize that attitude is not the same as it used to. But I must say, I dont appreciate it when I greet my passengers with a smile, and I dont even get an acknowledgement back from them. It happens every day.... Its definetely a give and take here.

Well said FriendlySkies!!!! Well said.

You FA's have to realise that there is only one way this could possibly be effective. that is, to have 100% of commercial jet aircraft with registrations starting with "N" to be grounded. You need ALL airlines onboard.

But dont forget, that all these massive debts..well, they're still going to have to be paid, plus new ones are going to pop up.. like accomodating stranded passengers (since you can't buy them a ticket home on another carrier), and then finally any such movement like that would ultimately require government intervention. (we;re hinting at re-regulation perhaps? I doubt the public would support any such move)

As we are talking about a democratic society with any possible service providers (as opposed to a country like France), that isn't going to happen anytime soon.

You know, if they go under, a lot of pilots for example, to get another job, would have to leave their country. Sure some would be hired through expansion of existing airlines, but, nowhere near as many as would be fired. They'd have to go somewhere like Emirates. They'd be lucky to come back to the US and see their families a few times a year.

AACUN: I sincerely appreciate your position. I think a passenger that doesn't use "please" and "Thank-you" ought to have a lesson in manners. I have enough miles on my ass to know that F/As have to deal with all sorts of folk - good and bad - I do not envy them at all. Perhaps I could ahve been more clear in my post. I am afraid the F/As are taking out on passengers what they are unwilling to take out on management. In plain terms, if your management sucks, don't take it out on me. That's the trend these days in my humble opinion.

Friendly Skies... when you speak of how pilots have sometimes 450 souls in their hands dont forget to add how the United Pilots Union negotioated to have the company downgrade paying passengers from first so those "soul holders" can fly first class when dead heading.

It amazes me how committed so many people are on this forum to ensuring that so many people in the U.S. work for so much less money. The most appalling are all the younger people who want to work in the airline industry, but who antagonize airline workers and condemn their union activism. Don't you get it that if airline workers sell out and agree to work for nothing today that it will be all of you that work for nothing tomorrow? United's 747-400s may be beautiful but I promise you'll hate them after a lot of 16 hour days and $19,000 a year.

And how dare so many of you call flight attendants and AFA stupid. The obvious thing they're doing is building a concrete strategy to defend their jobs. The United flight attendants have a lot less power alone than they do with everyone in the industry on their side. And I can tell you that there are all night conversations with both the affiliated and independent unions tonight for an industry-wide solidarity plan. For all of you who sing the praises of the free market, this is it in action. When workers are scape goated and treated poorly, we will organize and demand our fair share.

So for all of you who work outside the industry and demand that all of us work for nothing, have fun. I hope those airport benches are comfy over Christmas when you're sleeping overnight during the strike. You can ask Santa for a better contract for the flight crew so you can go home!

Ryan

So who could say that the Unions are "member" friendly? Unions are a big part of the workforce problem as illustrated by this announcements. Will the union leaders share in the lost pay during this stirke? I think not!!!!!!!!!

This is really intelligent - dah!

Just a clarification-

Every single union leader at the airlines in question is a flight attendant for that airline. AFA is a rank and file union. That means you get your airline paycheck and the union reimburses the airline for a union leader's lost time. Only the AFA officers in Washington and a handful of staff work for AFA itself. So for example at United there are roughly 50 elected AFA officials. All of them have taken the concessions that every other flight attendant has taken. If an unsuccessful strike were to take place, they would be unemployed along with everyone else.

Union leaders actually usually make less money than non-elected coworkers, as they are not paid the non-taxed perdiem pay that boosts flight attendant paychecks. So for all of you with Jimmy Hoffa misconceptions, realize that flight attendants in 2004 are a lot different than the mob in 1963.

The obvious thing they're doing is building a concrete strategy to defend their jobs.

That should read: destroy their jobs.

Airlines produce a commodity product and he who has the lowest costs wins. If the carriers can survive a strike, they will be better off when they replace these bitter top-of-the-pay-scale types with low-cost new entrants.

RyanAFAMSP

We called them stupid, because we'd all like there to still be a United Airlines Inc. this time next year.

Think about it. Lets say you all do go on strike. You get all the other airline unions in on it too. Now DL is still gonna be flying. Jetblue are still gonna be flying. Indy is still gonna be flying. If the strike starts to last any length of time, they're going to expand. If that happens, there is gonna be less room for everybody when/if you all decided to return to work.

Figure out the rest.

LH

They actually pay these unions leaders who make such good business plan statements ? WOW!

RodgerAFSMSP: interesting response. But remember we in this post are not all young people looking for jobs in aviation. Many such as myself are business travelers who happen to be aviation enthusiast. As for your comment on antagonisms toward airline employees. Its because those airline employees who hide behind union curtain basically want to do the least amount of work for the most amount of pay. Your former employer United, employees', are the biggest offenders. There's nothing worse as a business traveler than sitting during those often delays listening to how some grandmother f/a has been wronged buy the company. Maybe the f/a's should have joined in the ESOP then they could have straighten it all out and none of this would have happened. Its time for the old guard union aviation workers to step aside.
As for sleeping on benches during Christmas... think again as many of those potential strikers have Christmas bills too... they will cross. Then again travelers can always drive.. its less hassle than dealing with the current disgruntled airline workers.

Lufthansa,

We get that you still wants there to be a United Airlines. Believe me no one wants that more than the people who actually work there.

But United has to be more than an object of desire for those on airliners.net. The airplanes are beautiful. We think so too. But there are 200,000 families who depend on these airplanes to make their livelihoods. If these concessions pass, people will be working in unsafe, unhealthy, undignified conditions. We refuse to passively sit by while that happens. This is why we are planning an industry-wide general strike in the unfortunate event that management choses to procede with its plan.

Oh and just a quick correction. Indy is in AFA. The only non-union airlines of size are Skywest, Frontier, jetBlue, and of course mama Delta.

The only non-union airlines of size are Skywest, Frontier, jetBlue, and of course mama Delta.

Funny.. I've changed from United to Delta and the folks over there seem very safe, dignified and healthy.

Chgoflyer - You Said . . .
"There's nothing worse as a business traveler than sitting during those often delays listening to how some grandmother f/a has been wronged buy the company" and "Then again travelers can always drive.. its less hassle than dealing with the current disgruntled airline workers."

Exactly . . . nothing worse than listening to a couple old battleaxes in the front galley sniveling and bitch and whine from ORD-SFO about how the company or this person or that person or all of the above has screwed them over. I'll often drive rather than fly (when I'm in the lower 48 states) rather than deal with that chit.

Ryan - there may be 200,000 families of flight attendants, but they are tens to hundreds of millions who will be affected if you shut down UAL for good and irreversably harm the other airlines, resulting in more bankruptcies.

Why doesn't your union use their expertise to show the managers how to fix their negative balance sheet without bringing your salaries down to those of their competitors and without changing work rules. I'm sure all would be interested in hearing any options they have not discovered on their own. Or use your union finances as collateral to help these bankrupt airlines exit bankruptcy.

Pensions are over in all major US industries, all successful companies are going to 401K plans. They aren't financial viable in any industry, you are not being singled out in any of this!

Your right ANC... driving is not as bad as once thought. I took my travel budget and leased a nice car and im on the road. Just around the mid west. I still fly to Denver and Ca but hell I just drove from Chicago to Pittsburgh and its not bad.

RyanAFAMSP you are correct when you say that F/A of 2004 are not the same as 1963, but we will NOT go there!!!! Strike if you want, but don't be shocked when there is not an airline to go back to. Strike, and it all ends.

I do not disagree with you that management has been unfair in the cutbacks. I would love to see management at UA get the less real income that F/A's now receive. Then they can ask for the F/A's to cut, but they won't take it themselves.

The typical Union approach will be the death knell. Unions had their purpose at one time, but they who fought the oppressive management of yester year have now become the oppresive and destructive monster they were founded to combat.

I do not blame the poor pay of F/A's for the troubles at the airlines, I totaly blame management. But the Union approach is wrong!

Sad part is I haven't heard anything about Tilton and his boys taking pay cuts. Now I am NOT for the F/A's, for their duties since air travel began have slowly decreased to the point you get nasty people serving you drinks at 30k feet.

Most if not all airlines are top heavy, the cuts NEED to start from the top!!! If they (CEO's,VP's) have taken cuts? Then I apologize for my rant, I haven't heard crap about the big people at the top. Pretty much live and/or lead by example.


UAL 777 CONTRAIL

And driving's often quicker too - what with the delays - expecially at ORD - and the TSA joke.

When I lived in DC and had business in NYC or PHL I never flew. Ever. Amtrak was the hot ticket (didn't drive then because of the I-95 death-trap interstate). Even US Air Shuttle, every hour on the hour - more or less - took twice as long as the train.

Well RyanAFAMSP

These airlines are enough. Think about it. A quick call to Condor, Mytravel (who could well do with some cash paying business) Air Atlanta Icelandic, even Air Canada (some of those A/C in storage) and within a week or two i could have a fleet of 747s, A330s, 757s and 767s wet-leased and flying about the place. If i were to upgrade all JFK/LAX etc services to 747s we'd soon fit everybody in. Also there is a whole stack of 737-200s in the desert which wouldn't take that long to return to flight-status. But just the excess capacity in the charter business over the pond alone would be enough to get by. DL would be in a position to charge a premium because a lot of people would now be desperate to fly, it would book a lot of international PAX on KLM and Air France etc, and switch as many widebodies to domestic service as possible.

Also, given that this is likely to be a time of national crisis, What is to stop say, NW leasing DC-10s to Delta, and the USAF crewing them? KC-10 pilots should be able to fly the DC-10. Federal Express may want to also get in on the act, since it has flight crews that probably have low enough hrs to help out and could soon fly 727s, A300s A310s, DC-10s, and MD-11s.

Obviously flights wouldn't be operating at full capacity, but, the point is that it wouldn't be impossible to get a sizeable volume of people moving again. If the country comes to a stand still for a bit because people can't travel, things will soon be done. Oh, and don't forget, because this is the USA, and if its economy goes down, so does a lot of other countries, I wouldn't be surprised to see other countries offering to help. Congress could allow Cabotage rights to International Airlines for example. They did once already in the 1960s...QF carried pax between HNL and SFO.

So in that case, every LH, KL BA, QF, CX, SQ, JL etc etc widebody is another potential source of seats. For example, lets say KLM continue their AMS-houston service to DFW. There is a 747 return each day to DFW.

Cathay already did this inside the Philipinnes when PAL shutdown for a while back in the late 90s. After your sentors are stuck at airports, I'm sure they'd pass the legislation to allow this as a temporary measure.

Think about everything else and not just your wages. This industry must and will go on, with or without your help.

RYANAFA,
Please enlighten me, how are you going to be working unsafe, unhealthy, undignified conditions? Explain this to me. Here is something I really find funny. Your job group has been sitting on their thumbs for a decade. Passed up pay and stock in the ESOP, threatened chaos, and UAL won, now all of a sudden your intelligent job group " refuses to passively sit by while that happens. This is why we are planning an industry-wide general strike in the unfortunate event that management chooses to proceed with its plan." The pensions are gone little buddy, so get use to it, and even if you try to shut the airline down, and you wont, you WILL take a pay cut.


And who's brain is your job group using now? You guys, and I use that loosely, have never used your brains, agreed to a **10** year contract, and bitch once everyone else's is up and receive hefty raises. Explain this to me, you sound like a big liberal, pissed that Bush is here for another 4 years so lets use a reason to finally piss down Tiltons back. Explain Ryan, if you need time to have a few of your fellow co-workers help you with a reply then I can wait.

UAL 777 CONTRAIL

ENOUGH.

I am T I R E D of reading posts by individuals who have no idea whatsoever of what working in the airline industry entails. Most everyone here loves aviation, and it is my sincerest hope that those who share that passion convey it, no matter what their background. However, A word of advice to those "aviation enthusiats" who feel they are qualified to intelligibly comment on airline labor relations and management matters: Unless you are/have been in the airline industry (as in EMPLOYED in), do not believe, even for a second, that you can provide knowledgeable insight. Just because you fly on an airline with some degree of frequency qualifies you to do one thing and one thing only... comment on the service you received as a passenger during that time. And my friends, THAT IS IT!!!

No one outside this industry can comment on what it is like to have a
C A R E E R in this business only to see it come to a bare-bones gutting. And that's not exclusive to any one group or airline- Nearly every employee of an established legacy carrier finding themself in the industry at this time is literally fighting for their livelyhood. Should the efforts they take to keep their jobs (or their dignity, in some cases) be falted because the rules of the game have changed in the eleventh hour? How would you like to have your pension effectively erased? I feel thankful that I at least have my youth. Many employees don't.

The stark reality of the current climate of this industry presents challenges that are without question daunting, but those management teams that partner with their employees have proven far superior to those who have chosen the "us against them" mentality. A basic of mgmt 101- If you fail to recognize the importance of the employee in maintaining and growing your enterprise, it won't be around for long. And this goes for anyone, including LCCs. Couple this with another pompous fallacy of poor management teams- believing that employees in general do not have the organizational understanding or education to effectively understand the direction of a company or provide meaningful input- will diminish any capability of management very quickly (A subtle HINT about working in the airline business- MISmanagement is FAR more common than effective guidance). Given this framework, while salary reductions are without question inevitable, would you wish to see your once proud C A R E E R brought to a nearly pathetic end because of a horde of missteps that could have been averted by sound decision making practices in the first place? This is the reality of these employees, regardless of workgroup. "Aviation enthusiasts" who wished to pursue their passion into their career, and one that had at least some degree of stability until not so long ago.

As far as this instance is concerned, what would you do if you were in their shoes? Do I support the idea? No. Its wishful thinking on their part in an unforgiving business environment that will replace them, not to mention a huge problem with the bankruptcy laws. Do I blame them? No. Their options have nearly eroded to sadly watch what little they have fade away. Do I believe that many individuals on this site need to revisit what they are qualified to comment on? Absolutely!!! I wish all of you well in your personal endeavors, and pray that you never have to entertain what emotions these employees feel every day.


Regards,

Wingspan

Thanks Wingspan....


Cheers


Peter

Glad NWA F/A arent represented by AFA.

 .. this crap is crazy..  

Ual777contrail....to answer your question all managers and executives at UAL will take the same pay and benefits cut that is being PROPOSED for the labor groups.

I hope in the negotiation process that IS REQUIRED before UAL can ask the bankruptcy judge for permission to impose the cuts, that the unions offer independently verifiable alternatives to the cuts. What would the unions do differently? Simply saying get rid of existing management won't eliminate the overcapacity in the industry and demand by passengers for lower and lower airfares. Can unions do something about the price of oil? Can they eliminate competition from LCCs?

So instead of saying, "NO", let's hear some suggestions from union leaders. I'm open to good suggestions.

Wingspan

You've forgotten one thing. We are the customer. And ultimately, it is us who get to decide who wins, and who looses.

You see, what you all keep on forgetting is that there are too many planes in service in the USA. Which means somebody has to go. All of that strain you guys are talking about, is a result of resisting going.

Yes is sad if you once had things wonderful and now they're shit. Times change. Once there were lots of good jobs as bank tellers, who we could only see during business hours five days a week. Now we've got Automatic Teller Machines.

Yes its sad. Very. Yes its not fair. The strange thing about all of this is, however, you don't here people at Jetblue complaining. Why? Expectations.

If i start off paying somebody, say $25, 000 per year, and i give them bonuses due to could performance etc (thats a 'conditional element of their pay) they're probably going to be really happy if they take home $32 000. However, if i give them $35 000, when they were previously paid $50, 000, to do the same job, sure they're gonna be pissed. Its simple basic pyscology really.

The thing is, the Jetblue's of the world have realised this and taken advantage of it. Part of their business plan is that you do feel the frustration that you feel now, because, they're hoping that your service levels will decline when compared to theirs, making them look all the better.

[Edited 2004-11-17 14:03:03]

JetBlue's time is coming. Trust me it is coming. Everyone has to pay the piper.

>Is there a legal way to get rid of these Unions?<

No, and there should not be.

>Glad NWA F/A arent represented by AFA.

.. this crap is crazy.. <

NWfltattendant, you should know better than that. They have to have the membership authorize a strike action in order for an arm (a group that works at 1 airline) can strike. They are not talking about striking against CO, FL, HP, AQ, AS, etc. They are talking about authorizing a strike against airlines that are trying to not just cut their pay, but cut everything.

This kills me. I'm not anti-union, but I am anti-stupid union.

Unions are a business. They collect their dues from their members and the people that run them reap the benefits.

This insane act is to shut down all commercial flights in the US. Shall we reflect on the last time the entire US airline industry was shut down and what effect that had on not only the airlines, but also the economy?

Not a smart move. This union, which to me cannot see beyond its membership dues, is asking for airlines to shut down, and their customers to look for permanent, alternate forms of transportation.

While I understand times are rough, especially at US and UA, throwing a temer tantrum and not working is not going to fix your respective companies or the industry as a whole.

What is going to fix the problems that exist is stepping back, looking at the big picture and making changes to the way you do business. The "that's the way we've always done it" mentality is not going to work anymore.

I do wish all airline employees the best. You front-liners have a thankless job most of the time. Most of you love what you do, and I know it hurts to see the industry like this, but you have the choice to either make it work, or suck the last life out of your companies. It's in your hands now.

Hello all, time for my venom-filled posting on this god-awful topic.

First of all,

No Airline, No jobs, simple as that. The flying public controls you're lives, not your pathetic unions. Now a bunch of you losers (especially F/A's) are going to flame me and hide behind your "you've never been in the industry" crap. Wrong. I have been a flight attendant, ramp worker, gate agent, management, etc. All I can say is that Im not pro-company or pro-union. It depends on the circumstances. I do not fly ANY AFA-represented airlines, nor do I fly DL because of their greedy pilots, who FINALLY took a cut. I am still in the industry, but I do not support either side when it comes to airlines such as UA or US. For all that it's worth, these are two airlines that DESERVE to go under.

Now, I am a member of a 38,000-member strong travel group and we just signed a petition among all members to not fly AFA-represented airlines because of Patricia Friend's little announcement. This is not some ordinary travel group that pays the tourist fares, mind you. We always pay top dollar-first class fare for all our 450+ trips a year. Now think about this, how much money does one first class fare bring in? Multiply that by our 38,000 strong membership, and any airline that doesn't get a piece of this is going to be hurting. Like I said before, we (as the flying public) control how your jobs will end up, not your unions.

Like I also stated above, I do work in the industry, and I will gladly support any airline that is using its employees to the best advantage to get through this god-forsaken crisis, and I also applaud employees who step up to WORK WITH management. Remember, these are your lives, your not in Communist Russia, if you don't like what's being dealt, get another job and stop bitching about not sending your kids off to Harvard anymore.

Again, my apologies if I offended any user on this forum...

To NWADC9,

Please get your facts straight, NWA is not hiring flight attendants, nor is Continental, Independance air may or may not be because they have not passed their proving runs on the Airbus and have lost their loan guarantee for the aircrafts, jet blue maybe. I know you won't like this, but it's the truth, it only takes minute to look up their websites to find out.

The reason Unions are always under attack here, is that this board is a haven for spoiled twenty something kids and teenagers who were born with silver spoons in their mouths, and have never had to work to earn money to pay rent, or a house payment, or a car payment, in their lives. That is why they spend their time claiming various labor groups are overpaid. Their parents are the gluttons of society, and quite frankly, they make me sick. I was "born with a silver spoon" in my mouth. My grandparents came to this country around 100 years ago, to escape the Pogroms of Tsarist Russia. They came with nothing, and they worked hard, and made good. But they never forgot where they came from. Unfortunately, it may take another Great Depression to wake these slugs up.

If the F/A's at US and UA go out on strike if their CBA's are declared void by the Bankruptcy Judge, they may be committing occupational suicide, but what other choice do they have? To work for poverty level wages? To surrender their retirement? To give up their medical insurance?


So many here think a flight attendant is nothing but an airborne waitress. Well guess what, they were never hired to be waitresses. Most have college educations. The first stewardesses for United were R.N.'s. Those men and women are there to make sure that you passengers are safe. They work 80-90 hours a month, but that is block time. Often, they work 14 hour days and get paid for six hours. And the travel, its wonderful. Layovers in exotic Toledo, or Cedar Rapids, or Mobile.

Before you start counting someone else's paycheck, go earn your own!

I have two questions:


1) What date is the earliest that F/A's can strike?

2) What happens to those of us who are holding tickets and are affected by the strike (if it happens)?

I love the brainiac that, in order to combat the potential AFA strike, is now engaging in a boycott of the AFA carriers! Way to go! That sure will smooth things out at UA and US! We need more heros like you WesternA318.

To willbdsp:

Flight Attendants are legally allowed to strike as soon as the bankruptcy courts abrogate the contract of any carrier in question. Everyone else may legally honor the strike, as secondary boycotts are legal under the Railway Labor Act of 1926.

So when is "the day" supposed to be? Or is this just more hot air? Geez.

Let’s see, where do I start…

You've forgotten one thing. We are the customer. And ultimately, it is us who get to decide who wins, and who looses.

What kind of moronic response is this to my original post? Where in my post did I remotely question the traveling public’s choice in choosing an air travel option? Enlighten me, please, because right now it sounds like you have no logical arguments whatsoever to present in the topic at hand- airline labor.

You see, what you all keep on forgetting is that there are too many planes in service in the USA. Which means somebody has to go. All of that strain you guys are talking about, is a result of resisting going…If i start off paying somebody, say $25, 000 per year, and i give them bonuses due to could performance etc (thats a 'conditional element of their pay) they're probably going to be really happy if they take home $32 000. However, if i give them $35 000, when they were previously paid $50, 000, to do the same job, sure they're gonna be pissed. Its simple basic pyscology really.

The thing is, the Jetblue's of the world have realised this and taken advantage of it. Part of their business plan is that you do feel the frustration that you feel now, because, they're hoping that your service levels will decline when compared to theirs, making them look all the better.

Thank you for your valuable insight, oh wise armchair quarterback from a foreign land. As I said in my original post, If aren’t (or haven't been) employed in this industry, you cannot intelligibly comment on matters. However for pure entertainment- using your ethereal logic- let me guess how an airline of your endorsement succeeds (At the macro level): Pay spartan wages, acquire the financing for new aircraft, create the basics of a viable network, and develop a few gimmicks, such as new IFE toys. Wow, what a great idea- but wait! We already have such a darling- Jetblue. Just a few minor issues though to the long term viability of this great idea. Those sparkling new aircraft- they won’t stay new forever, and will require a higher level of care, and greatly increased costs as time progresses. And the labor you employ- will get more expensive (do you actually believe that those CASMs will stay low forever?)- NO workforce, regardless of company, will continue to work at the same pay rate for any length of time in a profitable company- this is the REAL world, not the one in the classroom, Amigo. And by the way, while they do have a good customer base, it cannot touch that of more established LCCs, like Southwest. The industry can match this darling’s capacity wherever its truly challenged, and eventually manipulate the supply to eliminate their impact in any market (want proof?- ask why your darling no longer serves Atlanta). What looks great on paper has a long way to go before successful implementation. When you actually have worked in such an environment from either a managerial or operational perspective, having the experience with you as a result, reflect on the thoughts you have presented here and see if they are even close to what reality dictates.

WesternA318,

I won’t take offense to your statement, but I would like to point out several things, because your post is screaming for me to do so. 1- I am not an F/A, and 2- I am not rich. I can’t speak for you, but I never hoped to become rich in this business, just have a decent existence in the pursuit a passion. I feel terrible for those of the same mind frame who must deal with literal hell at a much later time in their life. Their recent actions, both in this instance and with other unions from other workgroups, speak to a sadness and desperation in a time that no one thought would occur. Fair? No. Just reality, and a prayer that this mess stops soon.

It goes without saying that the public ultimately dictates the success of a carrier. But labor problems are something that, while in the public eye, are an internal matter. It is not “crap” to say that an outsider viewpoint is irrelevant because quite frankly, if you aren’t dealing with the situation, you can’t say what you’ll do. And judging from your age profile, you haven’t been around for all that long, even compared to me. You should however, be applauded for understanding the role of a proactive management team coexisting with its employees.

Now to the other thing I am curious about from your post…

I am a member of a 38,000-member strong travel group and we just signed a petition among all members to not fly AFA-represented airlines because of Patricia Friend's little announcement. This is not some ordinary travel group that pays the tourist fares, mind you. We always pay top dollar-first class fare for all our 450+ trips a year. Now think about this, how much money does one first class fare bring in? Multiply that by our 38,000 strong membership, and any airline that doesn't get a piece of this is going to be hurting. Like I said before, we (as the flying public) control how your jobs will end up, not your unions.

Either this is a truly pathetic way of trying to impose some sense of legitimacy to your viewpoint, or this supposed “group” is comprised of a legion of fools. So, all 38,000 have signed a petition to be inconvenienced en masse in the short time since this has transpired? Interesting. So, your group ALWAYS pays top dollar for 450 trips a year- gee, sounds like you worked out a great deal with the carriers you travel on. Funny- I know of several groups of AROUND 50 that can bargain for better. Here’s a thought- if you cannot present a logical argument, don’t present a blatant falsehood. And by the way, show a news release of this “group”, and I’ll be happy to revisit that opinion.

Milesrich,

To your entire post, amen. =)


Wingspan

Enough posturing. If the A.F.A. Union really wants to strike, then by all means DO IT ALREADY! Just make sure that you're prepared for the consequences...a.k.a. the unemployment line. You do of course understand that it's very unlikely that you're going to "strike" your airline back into good financial health wherein they're able to offer you some of the goodies of years gone by. Get with the program or get a new job. I work in the industry and I've been through layoffs and the rehiring process, lost seniority, etc. I pay through the nose for insurance and I've taken pay cuts even though I've never made a lot of money to begin with! It's just that I have this affliction...I love this crazy airline business and I'm willing to make the sacrifices necessary to keep those proud birds soaring. Are you?

Respectfully,
AAgent

It's just that I have this affliction...I love this crazy airline business and I'm willing to make the sacrifices necessary to keep those proud birds soaring. Are you?

Loving this business is not a bad thing at all =-). Regardless of whether you're a pilot, F/A, CSA, MX, ramper, etc., the love of the business is strong. And most anyone would make sacrifices for any company they work for- no one is saying that they wouldn't. The only question (not necessarily weighted toward union or management) is what is your personal limit- when do you officially reach your breaking point, and its a question only you can answer. This is a roller coaster which will hopefully have a happy ending for all involved, but most realists probably know better. Best wishes to everyone, and a hope for blue skies with great visibility tomorrow.

Regards,

Wingspan.

Good replies Milesrich and Wingspan. Frequentflyer or not,we do not know what it is like work behind the scenes.

Wingman

a few things. Firstly, Unless you are from Scandinavia, you're foreign on this board. This site is Swedish!

Concerning your comments about jetblue... They're cost per availible seat mile won't really be much affected. Why? Well, for a start, those staff aren't going to get all that senior. Pilots may, but FA's etc will simply be replaced. Most of their staff only have the intention of doing it for a few years. They don't expect to be with Jetblue for 40 years.

As for the aircraft, well, Ryanair operated a very successful LCC operation with old 732s for years, that required much maintenance yet still succeeded. I wouldnt be surprised to see jetblue start phasing older A320s out after their first D check. By that stage Airbus will probably have a NG A320 on offer.
The customer has the final say because if you guys are unrealible, have a bad attitude or simply charge more and we can't see the value in it, we simply go and pay somebody else to do the job. That's why the customer has the final say. You may not realise it but your labour is central to that.

Lastly... UNION people, tell us all exactly how you plan to achieve all those old conditions. Instead of screaming for them... tell us HOW a strike would succeed. How would it enable the company to pay , and stay competitive? How would you ensure long-term sustainability of your conditions? Part of that is that your companies can actually afford to pay those conditions. So tell us all, exactly how this action would achieve that!



[Edited 2004-11-18 07:54:40]

OK everyone....let's take a deep breath.

First, this strike is not going to happen. The millisecond anyone starts to do anything akin to a strike action, there will be so many TROs in place, the attorneys will make millions.

The President will step in ultimately, because a strike of that scope could potentially derail whatever economic recovery may be going on and he will simply issue an executive order and there will be an immediate 30 day cooling off period imposed, during which time they will pull both sides together and give them both a serious head bashing, which will hopefully put this issue to bed.

So this whole discussion is a little bit moot from the perspective of any potential impact to the transportation system.

This does NOT mean that are not issues that need to be resolved with the flight attendants. For that matter, there are issues that affect all airline employees right now. However, this said, this is not the time for the flight attendant union to do something so incredibly stupid, principally from an emotional response to what is happening to them (as well as other airline employees). As I have said before, this is a time for everyone to come together to get through this crisis, not polarize the parties involved further and force airlines out of business...which will put more than just flight attendants out of a job.

Firstly, Unless you are from Scandinavia, you're a foreign on this board. This site is Swedish!

The gods honest truth is that I'm a American of Scandanavian heritage, 4th generation, relatives from both Sweden and Denmark. And as hilarious as it is, that's the truth! =-))

Now, without question, if there is a superior product (deemed superior by comparison to other offerings in the marketplace), the public will certainly let us know who has it. To most individuals, price is the major driving force, followed closely by quality of service, and on-time performance. (This is a major simplification for the sake of discussion, because certain segments of the traveling public will value one above all else). Just because a carrier has labor issues doesn't mean their product is shot to hell, but it certainly doesn't help with intangibles such as morale. This is where a quality management team with a true sense of diplomacy is needed to help mend the ties. I believe trust to be of paramount importance in these matters.

I never said at any time that a strike would be a good thing. My original post reflected that. And I'm not the guy with the pro-union t-shirt on, either. What I am saying is that this is a no-win situation, period. The mess that we are in has no easy answers, and can certainly not be eliminated overnight, regardless of how many cutbacks are implemented. Keep in mind, however, It is not the job of any unionized (or non-unionized) workgroup to come up with the strategic focus for the leadership of the enterprise- that responsibility rests with the management of the entity. In this instance, these people literally have no choice (to all who say no airline- no job- give it a rest, they know this, and for most it amounts to practically a symbolic vote and will ultimately mean nothing) other than to stand dizzied against a tidal wave which will erase the career they have known. I would like you to consider this before you move to the next thought of the mind before reverting to pure-economist default mindset.

Now, to a new, fresh LCC mindset that I presume you embrace. No one expects to be there 40 years. Fine. But do you think you can shuffle the deck lickety split every two to five years with top notch folks in all workgroups (pilots excluded)? Keep in mind that if this mindset is employed, a corporate culture starts to develop, a culture that can very easily infer that there is no chance of promotion, no tangible raises, no anknowledgement for a job well done, just a paycheck and a few fringe benefits until you get a "real job". As much as some would salivate at the idea, there aren't enough college students around to fill these jobs in that manner. Right now, that culture is slowly beginning to root itself at select carriers, and once it gets in, it will be nearly impossible to get out without increasing employee rewards. Want something to adversely influence your product- how about someone who doesn't care? Frankly, over anything else, this will be the first undoing of any upstart LCC without forward vision.

As for the leather seats and TVs, as of today they are superior to other offerings from most carriers, but I predict they will become commonplace as most carriers in the industry continue to modernize their interiors over the next decade.

As far as A/C are concerned, I don't think they'll make it to the next round of big A/C purchases twenty years from now. They are in danger of growing far too quickly, and overcapacity will hit hard when things start to level off. Throw in the continuing growth of competitors and the eventual remergence of those legacy carriers left, I don't think they'll be a dominant player.

No matter how charismatic the CEO may be, remember that it will be a team collaboration which will ultimately ensure the fate of the carrier. Hopefully the future will be shaped by carriers with simplistic fleets, encompassing route networks, effective alliance partnerships, competent management, and fair wages. The last two factors negate the need for any union presence, period.


Regards,

Wingspan

...do you think you can shuffle the deck lickety split every two to five years with top notch folks in all workgroups (pilots excluded)?

Yes I do, because its been done here in the US of A before and is done in other parts of the world.

The Stewardess Position was not always considered a do-it-until-retirement job. Back in the 1960s and 1970s, the girls did it for a few years until they found some guy to marry. If they didn't, the carrier fired them before they turned 30. Didn't have to worry about topping out the pay scales.

Airlines require highly skilled positions such as pilots and mechanics who cannot be easily replaced. That's why the make the well deserved big bucks.

The days of union cartels holding the carriers hostage are over, as this lame industry wide strike proves.

God speed new entrants .... keep those fares lows and people flying.


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Photo © Art Brett

Roger that,
Don't be that naive, Pilots, and yes, Mechanics can be replaced. Because if their unions they are not. To compare F/A's to the other two would be foolish, but just to bring you down to earth, the first two are as expendable as toilet paper, to throw any comment into the ring, the pilot is the only one who is hardest to replace. A strong union, and money make it difficult.

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