I realize the reason most commercial pilots are ex-military is because of the required flight hours and how it was easy to get that experience from being in the military.

Is it even possible (and/or financially feasible) for a joe-blow like myself with no military background to get enough training and hours to be eligible to be a commercial pilot? What about being a pilot for FedEx/UPS? I assume the hour requirements are similar whether you're carrying PAX or Cargo  

Thanks for any comments...

AJ
aj@nitzer.com

Yes, absolutely. You can become a commercial pilot without military training. I'd say most of the commercial pilots I know or have worked with are NON military. The days of 'only' military pilots are a thing of the past. The one thing you will need to have is a college education. This has become the new baseline for hiring.

[Edited 2004-11-28 22:35:02]

Actually the majority of new-hires now are civilians with no military service. As EMBQA said, the days of 'only' military pilots are LONG gone and probably not coming back.

You will usually either have an air-force civilian or a "tail hooker" otherwise known as a navy pilot. Sorry I just had to add that little joke. I remember as a kid always trying to figure out what kind of pilot they were and asking them to see if i was right. But most pilots these days are civilian I would have to say.

So guys, if the days of 'only' military kids are long gone, why is that? What's changed in the last however many years to cause that?

Steve

The coninuous cuts the military has been experiencing over the past couple of decades come to mind.


LY744.

I have heard that it is currently about a 50/50 mix. About half of current airline pilots are ex military, and about half are not.

Yes, but I must warn you that non military would be harder and more expensive IMO. First you have to clock up some hours (usually do this by being an instructor) to get into a regional airline. You fly for them for a while before you can get considered for a major carrier. I have heard that getting into a major carrier in the USA requires several thousand flight hours with other requirements such as night flying etc...
Another thing to consider is the economy and global issues. Especially if you are a less experienced pilot, an incident like 9/11 or SARS will basically send you to the cleaners for a year or so.
Also as mentioned before, get a diploma or degree in something so that you at least have something. Even if the degree is in aviation it will at least set you up quite nicely.

Best of luck, and I hope all goes well for you.

SUJ

Best way to go the civilian route is to do the following:

1. Go to a top level university with an aviation program (University of North Dakota, Embry Riddle, Western Michigan, Purdue, or Auburn)

2. Complete an internship with a regional airline (ASA, Comair, ExpressJet, Skywest, Independance Air). All of these will give you a guaranteed interview. Some of them will reduce hiring minimums. (ASA 350 TT 50 multi, ExpressJet 500 TT 100 multi, Independance Air 600 TT 100 Multi).

3. Get hired as a flight instructor your junior or senior year at your university.

4. After graduation or shortly afterwards get hired with the regional you had the internship or a regional that the school has a partnership with (example: UND: Piedmont 500tt, american eagle 500tt, and horizon)

5. And from there, build time and move up to the majors while they are hiring.

This is not the only way to make it to the airlines but is one of the best options.

[Edited 2004-11-28 23:53:09]

It is definitely possible for someone such as yourself to obtain the proper ratings without going through the military route. In fact, since you are already out in the working world, going the civilian route would be your best bet (maybe your only bet, I'm not sure what the age cutoff to be accepted to a military flying program is but I know its competitive).
Assuming you have finances available, and depending on how much free time you have for lessons, you could move through the ratings fairly quickly by training through an FBO or flight academy.

G550 just illustrated something- there are many ways so skin a cat. Personally, I'm very against going to an aviation university. I went to a normal, large, 4-year university and got a regular degree (Florida State- started out as a Physics major, that was going to take 5 years so I changed my major to philosophy).

I did my flying out of an FBO in Tallahassee and also one in the Atlanta area where i grew up. Got my instructor licenses by the start of my junior year and instructed my junior and senior years. The company also had a part 91 managed charter operation, so I got to fly Saratogas once I got the time in for insurance..as well as right seat in King Airs.

I graduated may of 2003 into a crappy summer for hiring... had about 1400 hours and 250 multi. Myself and Flyf15 from here rented a seminole and flew around the country.... I got myself up to 1500 and 300....got an interview with Pinnacle in Sept 03....started CRJ class Nov 3 and here I am.

The civilian way is very expensive...but the military way is basically a 10 year commitment with pilot training and everything. By doing this, I'll be qualified for a major by the time I'm 25. Things have certainly gone well, I won't deny that....and not going to an aviation university takes a bit more dedication to stay focused on getting your flying done.

Anyhoo.thats my way of doing things. Currently, FedEx is pretty much the most lucrative flying position out there today...everybody and their mom wants to get hired with them (me being one). Good luck...it costs alot, I can tell you that.... but doing it through an FBO is considerably cheaper than the likes of Embry Riddle...though UND is pretty cheap from what I hear.

XFSUgimpLB41X: Love the way you go to the airlines! When did you start you PPL training? Also are you saying the company you where a CFI for had a charter airline too so after you got some hours you became a Sartoga Pilot for them? Did you get paid to do it? Would love to become a pilot that way!

G550: What kind of Internship would this be? How would it lower minimums for a pilot job? So If I trained at UND American eagle or Horizon airlines minimums for me would be 500TT? That is great! How much twin? 100?
Thanks.

My girlfriends roommate at her crashpad is an FO on the 9. She was never in the military. Her parents are loaded though and pretty much didn't have to pay a dime for her lessons and ratings. And she's miserable. Ingrade

>So guys, if the days of 'only' military kids are long gone, why is that? What's changed in the last however many years to cause that?<

Well, since no one has answered that, I will take a stab Steve. I think that as amount of flying has gone up in the US, that has combined with fewer and fewer people wanting to go into the military (and the amount of flying in the military stagnating) to see more people coming the GA route. Also, GA flying has gone up in the past several years and the increase in biz jet flying through biz jet charter companies and fractional ownership has been a way for pilots to make money (usually much more than at a regional) while building hours.

It's a hard journey regarless of the routes you may take. There are many very qualified pilots on the street right now which makes the pools for us young low time fliers very small. Many of the furloughed airline guys are trying to get on with anybody they can. I see a ton of them flying corporate. Many Flight Options pilots are ex-airline.

FYI, the big cargo carriers are part 121 operations so they adhere to many of the same rules as the pax lines. In fact, because of pay and stability, the cargo carriers are some of the most difficult to get on with when they are hiring.

You can absolutely do it the civilian way. True, in decades past, the major airline newhires were predominantly military. The military offered a steady supply of well trained pilots. Many major carriers were considered a 'boys club' and former military pilots recommended their squadron buddies for jobs. However, in recent years the tables have turned and civilian trained pilots have accounted for well over 50% of new hires. As more and more Vietnam era pilots near retirement, the ratio of military pilots in the existing seniority ranks will shrink as the military new hires are not at the level they used to be.
More and more regional pilots, many with higher total time and jet experience than the military guys, are being hired by the majors. With the advent of the regional jet, many regional pilots are flying faster equipment that flies higher then mainline 737s or MD-80s. These airlines are also several times the size they were in decades past, some even being larger than 'major' carriers flying Boeings/Airbus and qualifying to be majors themselves. The regionals aren't what they used to be! This in addition to fewer military appointments and the governments attempt to make career military flying as attractive as the airlines because they are losing valuable assets (that cost them whole lot to train) are why this trend is continuing.

The average new hire at a major airline in 2003 was a civilian pilot, 34.6 years old, with 5,419 total hours, an airline transport pilot certificate, and a four-year college degree and represented 68 percent of those hired. (According to a database of statistics compiled by AIR, Inc- http://www.jet-jobs.com.

The 'best' route to a pilot career is determined by each person. Some aspire to the military lifestyle and want to serve their country (including being sent to war if need be) in addtion to the gov't picking up the tab for flight training. These days this route is about a decades worth of commitment after flight school, while the civilian route will take half as long to an airline job. Others have no interest in the military or the commitment required to get free training. While military pilots do receive some of the best training out there, they are not trained to be airline pilots, even though that's the reason many wanted to join in the first place. No doubt they are top notch flyers, but someone who has come up the civilian ranks and flown at the regionals is every bit the aviator the military pilot is at the controls of an airliner, especially having flown their careers in the Part 121 world already. In addition, the regional training is on par with the major airline level at most carriers. Sometimes, they even take place in the same facility. A few carriers, like American, are train to profiency yet not so at their regional affiliates, like Eagle. (In fact, many of the military pilots who were furloughed AA F/Os don't even have the qualifications to come back and fly at Eagle as a Captain because they didn't log enough time in the military- 3,000TT per the 'flowback agreement between the companies.) As far as Fed Ex or UPS, yes, their requirements are on par with any major airline. Recently UPS opened their resume submission period and got over 30,000 resumes! Getting on with them, or any carrier hiring these days is extremely competative.

Looking at your profile you list your self in the 25-35 age group. Sure you are still young enough to get your ratings, but will the return be worth it? There a a lot of experienced pilots in your age group looking for jobs. Many of my old college buddies are in this group. Many of them have given up on flying and are now persuing other careers. There just isn't work out there that they can live off of. Even if the field was wide open it could take you ten years from the begining of training until you land a job with a major airline. Living off 3 for a dollar Mac and Cheese when your 23 is't great but doing it at 43 is different.

One of the major reasons that airlines prefer civilians over military is because of CRM (Cockpit/Crew/Cabin/Company Resource Management). The military has been the last to adopt the method. The airlines need team players, not egos. There is a history of military pilots being too commanding over their civilian FO and/or FE. If you an airline has to decide between a civilian pilot v. a military pilot, they will choose the civilian pilot. That is the primary reason, as I understand it coming from military pilots that have flown commercial.

As for the university v. FBO debate, I'll throw in my two cents. First off, I'm a non-pilot at ERAU-Prescott. I went through a private FBO (actually 2) to get my private (which I didn't complete, $$$). Embry-Riddle is far, far more expensive, but it is the way to go if you want to fly for an airline. Not that any other college has a lesser program, but ERAU is a completely aviation focused culture and their pilot program trains you to be an airline pilot from day one. Continental Express has had a program to hire ERAU graduates with a 0hr min. requirement. I think this program still exists, but the market is quite a bit more competitive than it was 5 years ago.

There is also the option of programs like ERAU's CAPT. This is an extremely intense flight program, something like 12 months with 0 hrs at the start. From what I've read it is to use the Diamond DA-40 (maybe eventually the new TwinStar) and Seminole and graduates will be awarded a Captain's type-rating in an MD-90. Requirements include a 4-year degree. I'm sure there are many programs like this, but I hear about Riddle's stuff the most, I wonder why. www.erau.edu/capt If I were still interested in flying, this is where I would go.

"If you an airline has to decide between a civilian pilot v. a military pilot, they will choose the civilian pilot."

What kind of non-sense is this? First off, my guess is an airline would take someone who speaks English properly.   You cannot clump all military pilots into a single group. There is a world of difference between an F-18 pilot and a C-5 bubba, a B-1 driver and a KC-10 pilot. A lot of military folks do jobs that are very similar to civilian commercial or cargo pilots. Navy C-40 drivers only haul passengers and cargo. KC-10s, C-5, and C-17 (and other planes) haul a ton of cargo and people.

Also, the military is huge on CRM today, even more so than the airlines. CRM is taught beginning in college and it continues as long as you fly, at least in the Navy and Air Force. Military aircraft commanders know when they need to take charge in an emergency, and all military aviators get far more training on dealing with emergency situations than civilians do. If a commercial plane I am on has a former military pilot in charge, I definitely feel safer.

The biggest reason the proportion of military to civilian trained pilots in commercial aviation is 50/50 today is because the military has been cutting back on the number of new pilots for years, reducing the overall number of military aviators in the ranks leading to less folks getting out of the military to go commercial. Additionally, the Navy has been training fewer and fewer fixed wing pilots because the fleet structure has moved to about 60% helicopters, so that takes even more people out of the picture. Finally, due to the longer commitments, more people are electing to stay in after their initial flight contracts are up, taking big (up to $25K/year) bonuses, promotions, benefits (ie medical, dental, paid leave), and a guarantee of a 20 years of service and the retirement pension that goes with it over the airline jobs. If you were 34, married, a kid and one on the way, would you turn down $80K/year, all the benefits, and 5 years of an additional $25K/year bonus to go to a job that pays $30K initially with little job security in the near term? It's a tough call.

Good catch, Jaxs170. Airlines doo pre-fur peepulls tht kin reede and rite reel gud.  

Anyway, just to clarify the statement you quoted, I meant if they have identical qualifications. Right now, it doesn't matter a whole lot, airlines are going to pick up forloughed airline pilots before new hires anyway.

In addition to CRM, airlines operate a completely different culture than the military. I think most would agree with that statement. Airlines prefer to have a civilian pilot with experience in that culture, such as ERAU or other similar school. I'm just a student with no real world experience to go on besides how I interpret what has been written. Take it for what it is worth.

Basically, a future pilot has to decide what he/she wants to do. I don't think there have ever been more options and they are all good. If you have the next decade free and not the capital to pay your own way, go military. If you have way too much money burning a hole in your pocket (or don't mind 6 figure student loans) an Aeronautical College/University is the way to go. Like I said before, programs like CAPT, in my opinion, are the way to go for someone serious about wanting to fly for the airlines. Start now, get your MD-90 rating by Christmas '05. You can't beat that.

Hey Flymia.... I started on my private just before my senior year of high school at LZU airport in atlanta. Do a search for N48329...that was the plane that I soloed in.  
The company I flew for in TLH had a charter operation..it was part 91 though, not 135. People owned airplanes, and hired Flightline to fly them and maintain them. I got paid on a per day basis on the Saratoga and King Air. Was really good experience... putting the Saratoga into Hartsfield was a blast.

XFSUgimpLB41X: Wow sounds great. I would like to start my PPL training my Junior year of high School. Hope to go to a good college get the rest of my ratings while in college and than be a CFI gain multi hours and single. Than maybe a few turbo. I am going to try to get to know some people in the Regionals once I am a CFI. I already know one First Officer from Chicago Express and a ATA L1011 Captain. Guess I should try to keep in touch with them.
THe Chicago Express FO just got hired with only 850TT and not to much twin. He got the job since a Captain for Chicago Express gave him a great reccomendation.

[Edited 2004-12-01 02:35:20]

I got another question to throw at you guys. What are the chances of someone getting a job at say 30 to 35 yrs of age.

My flight instrutor, is a very good pilot for AA and he had no military experience. So it is very possible.

Getting a job period is hard nowadays.
Coming from a civilian route IMHO is even harder. As has been said, unless you have money burning in your pocket, you'd better hope everything falls right into place. I know people who went the civilian route, and still can't land a job, even with small carriers.

The benefit with the military is that you've got a fall back plan, and you're not worried about paying thousands of dollars in loans back.

With the civilian route, unless you get hired right away and like I said everything falls into place, you're going to be pulling one or two jobs all the while trying to gain more hours and trying to get a job. Expect bad times.

The thing with the military, is that the need for pilots isn't as great as it was back 20+ years ago, back when the majority of pilots were flying in wars, and the civilian sector pushes out more pilots annually than the military does (civilians looking to make aviation a career).
Also, the military offers some nice bonuses for pilots trying to get them to stay in military cockpits.

That being said, the military really gives you that edge that you won't get in the civilian sector. Seriously, what makes you more suitable for the job if you put up against a similarly qualified pilot from the civilian sector?

Being from the military, having served a 10 year commitment, you've probably got more flying hours than most civilian guys, and more importantly you have leadership abilities and can react very quickly under pressure.

No where else do you get stood up on a regular basis where you have to stand at attention, are given a situation with your airplane (i.e. engine loss on takeoff with certain weather conditions) and are required to fully answer in order to even be able to step into the cockpit, except in the military.
No where else are you directly responsible for your people's lives, and are you leading in a way the military does it. No where else will you get the type of flying you get in the military.

I guarantee you, most carriers hiring new pilots, if a military guy goes against a civilian guy, the military guy will probably get the job. This is coming from people I've talked to in the industry who have sat on new hire boards and been responsible for picking new hiries. I don't know where people are hearing that civilians have an edge over military guys, except for maybe at the colleges that want them as students.

Basically it boils down to two different ways to go. If you think you would be able to handle the military and the lifestyle and don't mind sacrificing ten years, to have a guaranteed job, no debt, getting a good steady paycheck and having a distinct edge over many other people, look into the military. It's pretty selective just to get a pilot slot though, you just can't join and decide to fly.

If you don't want to put up with the military, have a lot of money or don't really care about debts, don't really care about having a hectic life after you get out of school in order to pay the loans back and want to work you way up from the absolute bottom to hopefully getting an interview one day, then go the civilian route.

I'd personally be interested in seeing many of the students at civilian universities right now, who posted replies here, in 5-10 years after graduation. I think many have a distorted perception of how things will be after they graduate and they're one of many with nothing really different to offer than the next guy. I'm sure some will get on the right track and have everything just go right for them and will be flying for the majors at an early age, but I would probably be willing to put money on it that most will be working other jobs than flying trying to pay their education loans back and will be pretty poor hoping to get whatever job possible. Some of them (if the airline industry remains as it is today which it probably won't) won't ever see the cockpit of a mailine major carrier.

This is just the reality of things, especially with the industry the way it is today.


[Edited 2004-12-01 03:54:06]

"I'd personally be interested in seeing many of the students at civilian universities right now, who posted replies here, in 5-10 years after graduation."

This is interesting, I'd like to see it too...I am one of those students you mentioned, sophomore at a non-aviation university majoring in something not related to aviation, aspiring to a professional pilot career...so December of 2009, we reincarnate this thread and see how everyone fared, eh?

Greg

I too am a civilian college puke....but not a puke with a degree in aviation. I went with business so I'd have another forte in case the flying world pancakes on us one day.

Military flying was always a dream of mine, but lately the pipeline has become super competitive. I applied to the Naval Academy for the class of '06, that year there were over 15,000 applicants..I missed an appointment by about 100-200 people probably. I was doing Navy ROTC for a year and a half in civilian college, but as slots were tightening up, I realized I'd never get a scholarship, AND the fact that the previous years were taking 10-18 people a year for Naval Aviator slots, classes around my timeframe were only taking one guy for Naval Aviator...ridiculous. So, military flying has dried up pretty bad lately, as not many guys are leaving the service these days, since the airlines aren't hiring, and the mil. offers alot more job security.

I am more than likely going to go the Air National Guard route though, which offers the best of both worlds..check it out if you haven't!

DeltaGuy

Going to a non-aviation related school is actually a very good idea because this gives you something to fall back on when the industry is in a downswing. I went to riddle for a year and realized how disadvantaged I would be trying to find a job if I lost my medical or lost my flying job. For instance if I wanted to work in a lower managerial position after the airlines .... You cant compete with people who have legitimate business degrees from schools with great reputations. I am one of the many people who believe colleges are stealing peoples money by offering "professional pilot" degrees because they don't give you anything you cant get from a good local FBO. If your in a professional pilot program I would advise you sat down with an advisor and tried to switch majors to at the very least an aviation management degree or some other degree that offers something to fall on when the hard times come. Just my own opinion but definitely talk to other people other then the administration at those major aviation colleges... They WANT your money and will tell you anything!!!

As far as the civilian to the left seat at a major route... You are looking at paying your dues for a long time before reaching the left seat but you wont get there any faster by going military. They might higher a military pilot with 1000 TT over a civilian with 1000TT because of the discipline it takes to be in the military but the civilian will get to 1000 a lot quicker then the military pilot would. Once you become a civilian instructor you should be accumulating anywhere from 40 - 100 hrs a month. The military pilots are required to spend SO many years in the service followed by reserve duty while the civilian is racking up valuable hours of experience. I was able to rack up 400 PIC in a king air and 1500 TT before many of my military friends with as few as 500 TT got out of the military. In the military you wont fly as much as you may think. Navy pilots fly the least I believe with as few as 2 or 3 sorties a month being the norm. So I would do some homework before deciding to go military or civilian. Find which works for you and what you want to do for a career and go with it.

As far as older pilots go... It doesn't matter about your age but it does require quite a bit of dedication and usually a hefty pay cut. I know a pilot that was a physics teacher and then left teaching for aviation. He began instructing in his late 40's and then got hired flying a G4 and a Falcon out of Islip, NY and loved every minute of it. it took him 3 1/2 yrs to make the transition but he did it and now he is teaching at Dowling College on Long Island. This was in the mid 90's but it is just as possible today.

Good luck ... I dunno if any of this was useful but i hope it was.

The military pilots are required to spend SO many years in the service followed by reserve duty while the civilian is racking up valuable hours of experience. I was able to rack up 400 PIC in a king air and 1500 TT before many of my military friends with as few as 500 TT got out of the military. In the military you wont fly as much as you may think.


Yes 10 years active after Pilot Training... But, it's a guaranteed flying job for FREE.

Hours all depend on what airframe you fly. If you want to rack up hours, getting an AWACS slot is pretty easy, and you'll probably double or triple what you're civilian counterparts are flying each month, and it'll be in a real large jet aircraft (compared to the small props your civilian counterparts will be flying).
It all depends what you're looking for. If you go fighter, you won't get as many hours, but many of those guys usually aren't looking to go 10 and out. Getting a fighter slot is pretty hard to begin with, so if you want the hours and don't want fighters, it's not like you'll be put in a fighter..

Cargo, Refuelers and AWACS get the most hours per month, probably more hours than you'd get paying for yourself in the civilian world, and it's all free, and you're flying as close as commercial as you'll get anywhere (anything from 737's to 747's, KC-135's, KC-10's or similar i.e. C-130).

Also, more and more, ex-military pilots are going executive jets. The companies like hiring military guys, and the schedules are usually very flexible and convenient, and you don't have to put up with the airlines.