Had a minor incident today here at DFW, but I figure it might be worth mentioning.

Flt 722 (ATL-DFW, 767-300) was pushed back from the gate, unhooked from the jet tug, and cleared to depart the ramp. It gave a lot more thrust than usual in departing the ramp, and the result was it blew a string of 4 luggage carts from one gate rolling towards another one.

Before anyone could stop them, 4 carts strung together (each being about 30 years old, solid steel, and probably weighing a few hundred pounds each) rolled in to the side of a fully loaded 737-800 at the adjacent gate. The 738 was full of pax and was about to push back when the carts ran into the plane. I heard from my colleagues that the whole plane swayed when it was hit and everyone heard the crash. The resulting damage was a rather large dent along with a small hole in the left side of the cowling on engine #1.

So the question here is, who is to blame? The person in charge of setting up the gate had all the carts in the right place, and the brake was set. I feel it was the pilot of the 763 who used too much thrust in departing the ramp. You could have all of those carts chalked and everything, and with enough jetblast from a widebody, those carts would be flying.

Funny thing is, when the plane got to Atlanta, he apparently went right to the Chief Pilot and told his story because the Chief Pilot in ATL called management here in DFW trying to cover the pilot's ass. What an interesting story... and when I left, I saw the guy in charge of the gate writing his side of the story down in an incident report. Fun times here at DFW............

I would say the ramp workers are at fault. I don't believe the pilot's job is to keep ramp clear and secure! Who knows if the pilot was even aware of the loose carts?

But I guess he cleared it alright!!

would say the ramp workers are at fault. I don't believe the pilot's job is to keep ramp clear and secure! Who knows if the pilot was even aware of the loose carts?

But I guess he cleared it alright!!

The poster noted that the brakes on the carts were set and they were in the right place. How would this be the ramp workers' fault?

It sounds like the capt of the 767 used too much trust on the taxi out... I used to hear/see it all the time as a ramper and I still hear/see it all the time as a pilot. Captains using way too much power in a crowded/congested area.

I still remember the day when a 737-300 capt. decided to add too much power in the alley in CLT and blew the windshield out of my tug... there was glass everywhere... I was not amused.

Unless the brakes were faulty on the first cart... and the carts were connected... there is only one set of brakes holding those carts in place... and that is the lead cart. That being said... those brakes usually work really well. Will be interesting to see what comes out of this.

It begs the question of how much is too much thrust. Breakaway thrust on heavily loaded aircraft is usually high. This is no secret. If the a/c was heavy, a large amount of thrust may have been needed, particularly if the CA was attempting to start into a turn. Odds are, the crew had no idea of what was located behind the a/c, and were relying on the ground crew to point the tail in a safe direction. I don't know that any single person is to blame, but the orignial poster seems to have already firmly fixed it on the captain. I would disagree. I too, trust the ramp workers to point the a/c in a safe direction before disconnecting. Rear view mirrors are not standard equipment.

I would also have to say that it was the ramp workers fault as the pilot has no idea what is behind the plane. Wish I was there to see that one.

As a ramp rat, I'm going to go out on a proverbial limb and say the ramp rats are at fault. obviously they weren't in the "right place" as they were in a position to be pushed by 'errant' jet-blast into a 737. The right place is near the building, there is no way this would be an incident had they put the baggage carts near the building until the 767 departed the area. Even with good brakes on baggage carts, they can be moved quite easily with a 767 providing direct thrust on the cart.

The pilot is at fault. What an ass, those 767s can be quite powerful. Maybe he's a little peturbed about his 33% paycut. I never understood why Delta flew so many widebodies domestically. This must happen alot with all those excess 767s. Is there really that much of a demand from DFW-ATL?

Well first, the reason Delta flies so many widebodies domestically is because most of the time they fill them up. Secondly, the flights between DFW and ATL are usually full, if not oversold. Non-revers have a tough time getting on those flights and usually have to start pretty early in the day.

Now touching on the topic that the rampers should have pushed him in the right spot, let me explain the situation there. I spoke with the ALA (Aircraft Load Agent - the guy who pushes the plane back) and he said that the tower told him to push the plane to that particular spot so a 763 waiting to park at that gate could pull in. So if you want to point a finger, I guess it could be the guys in the Delta tower in charge of aircraft movements in and around Terminal E.

But as far as having to secure carts up against the building so a 767 can taxi away, that's not gonna happen. For starters, there's not any room, and secondly, what a pain in the ass that would be. Im sure a new safety thing will come out that will require us to chalk all carts in staging areas..... another exciting saftey rule to add to the already full pool of junk (i.e. making 3 distinct stops when pulling up to an aircraft on a beltloader, only pulling 4 carts at a time, having a guideperson at the plane when you pull up a beltloader... the list goes on and on)

Also, that aircraft was NOT fully loaded. Its got little fuel on board for the hour and a half flight over to Atlanta. The pax load was nearly full, minus 7 seats. As far as freight goes, I don't think there was any, being that is usually goes out on the last widebody flight of the day.

DL763DFW

[Edited 2004-11-29 14:48:35]

Most of those rules are written in the ink of others mistakes. I imagine that there will be a rule regarding the minimum speration between aircraft and ground equipment before giving the wave off to taxi.

Azul320:
It has nothing to do with the pilot being an ass or any sort of paycut. It was probably one of those unfortunate incidents. If I applied your logic, then the person who rammed my aircraft with a belt loader did it intentionally because they are on a pay freeze. Your bitterness does you no credit.

I don't know the exact number, but for now there is a helluva lot of demand between DFW and ATL. A lot of people come from DFW and connect through ATL for international flights and flights to FLL/MIA and Disneyworld, plus there is a good business market between the two cities. I'm not sure how many dailies there are between the two cities but you have quite a few each with American, Delta, and Airtran.

They should put rear-view mirrors on the cockpit windows, then the pilot could behind the plane   

"The pilot is at fault. What an ass, those 767s can be quite powerful. Maybe he's a little peturbed about his 33% paycut. I never understood why Delta flew so many widebodies domestically. This must happen alot with all those excess 767s. Is there really that much of a demand from DFW-ATL?"

Are you serious? You don't think a 757 couldn't have done the same thing? It being a widebody had nothing to do with it. That's one of the most comical statements I've heard. And yes, there IS that much demand from DFW-ATL.

Jeremy

It all falls down to 2 questions that need to be answered.

1. Were the carts positioned where they should be, and was the tongue brake set?

2. Why did the pilot need to use so much power to taxi away, was it a tight turn he was making?

3. How far away from the terminal did the pushback agent place him?

The third question is the most important because if the carts are where they should be and the departing aircraft is pushed back exactly where it should be, there is no way he can blow the carts away. Just from hearing the story, if I had to make a judgement call, the ramp agent driving the pushback is at fault. It is his(and the wingwalkers) job to make sure that after pushback, there are no obstructions around the aircraft that would be affected upon departure. If the plane was pushed too close to another, it is the pushback agents job to tow the plane away from the other aircraft.

However, if the plane was in the right position and the Capt used a little more power than usual for departure, for whatever reason, it will probably be chalked up to "accident." There is no way for the Capt to know what is behind him or how close he is to another aircraft, and he most likely would have used enough power to taxi as was needed, so you can't really blame him for either fault.

Could he have been doing a single-engine-taxi-out? And possibly tried to make a right turn with his left engine off or vice versa? Could the ramp controllers instructed the pushback into the wrong position under those circumstances? The pilot is DEFINATELY NOT at fault.

They should put rear-view mirrors on the cockpit windows, then the pilot could behind the plane

or those new camera things! 

Hmm, I'll be flying out of DFW tonight on NW. Wonder if i can head down to DL to see anything. Probably not though.

Chris

As a ramp rat at DFW for AA, I have pushed back many a widebody there before. I am not really sure if it was the ramper's fault. Reason being the taxiways at DFW are rather close to the gates and the way DFW is designed, there is not a whole lot of room for error. If the pilots are off center, even just a little bit, 777's can narrowly miss hitting other planes because of the wingspan. Only the ramper who was driving knows how he/she left the plane. This was a 767, the driver has a clear, un-obstructed view of where he is going because he can clearly see under the plane. I preferred pushing back widebodies vs narrows because of this. The center line of the taxiway follows the curvature of the Terminal and if DFW Ground Control told this captain to set up on a taxiway holding mark that was essentially behind him, I can see the plane maneuvering rather hard to make that spot. I am not sure about the Delta side, but the gate areas at AA are clearly marked with red lines meaning that when a/c are coming in or leaving the gates, ALL equipment must be behind those lines as to not interfere. Thrust from a widebody will go where ever it wants to, even if the cans were behind the lines, they could still be blown over into a plane.

I don't think that a sufficient amount of information has been given to lay the blame on anyone involved in this incident. Likewise I don't think you can rule anyone out either.

The ramp agent in charge of the pushback may or may not have placed the 67 in the appropriate position for disconnect. This includes following the instructions from the ramp tower, as well as communicating any observed obstructions to the ramp tower to aid the tower in determining where to position the AC. If the AC wasn't positioned properly the ultimate responsibility for that falls on the tug driver as he is in charge of the pushback.

The pilot may or may not be responsible depending on whether or not he followed his procedures. We in MX who are taxi qualified have been trained to use min breakaway thrust. I am taxi qualified on all DL 767s and I know first hand that it only takes a small bump of the throttles to get a 67 loaded as this one would have been rolling. If they had only one engine running at the time then they would have needed to increase the power on that engine quite a lot more than with both. That could have produced the reported results would probably result in procedural changes but no disciplinary action.
The pilots could have used more power than needed, I've seen it happen, albeit rarely. Also it's possible there was some kind of mechanical related problem with the 67 that caused this. I tend to think otherwise as I don't think they would have continued the flight knowing that they had a bad aircraft from the get-go.

It's possible that the brakes on the lead cart malfunctioned. I've had to do repairs on AC that were damaged by carts blown into them by thunderstorms. If a storm can blow a cart then idle throttle jet blast could easily do it.

Lastly I did some research and the 767-300 involved was ship 121 reg # N121DE with 252 PAX and the flight data recorder was removed today 11-29 at the request of the chief pilot. The damaged 737-800 was ship 3760 reg # N3760C and it sustained a 1/4 inch hole in the outboard fan cowl of the #1 engine. It returned to service today.

Dl757Md

PILOT ERROR!

Pilot failed to follow taxi out instructions. Pilot was instructed to taxi
out at a certain spot due to jet blast, pilot continued to wrong taxi
out spot point and powered up.

PILOT ERROR, failed to follow ramp tower instructions!

That's okay...his pay doesn't get cut till Wednesday!

Hey i think i have heard this one before!!! But last time it was with a L-1011 an LD-3 and a 757!!! This is nothing new at DFW... The airport was poorly designed in many ways, this is just a example of one of them. Due to the turn outs to the taxiways gates E 14 - 17 get blasted... Either way i am sure that every duty manager and every supervisor had go play hero... take some pictures.... then tell the gate crews to go chaulk everything... and then blamed the ALA... Hey DL763dfw tell the ALA to have with that TO - FROM and when in doubt blame the tower.

I know this because it has happened to me before at DFW.

N160LH

[Edited 2004-11-30 02:39:42]

PILOT ERROR!

Pilot failed to follow taxi out instructions. Pilot was instructed to taxi
out at a certain spot due to jet blast, pilot continued to wrong taxi
out spot point and powered up.

PILOT ERROR, failed to follow ramp tower instructions!

Just wondering. Why do you feel that it is the pilot's fault when he can't see behind him? IF anyoen is to blame, I feel it is the person who pushed the plane back. But I'd guess that this is one of those "Shit Happens" things that will just drum up more procedures.

Chris

Chris,

How would you blame the ramp agent who pushed the 767 back correctly to its stopping point? The pilot failed to go further down the ramp to the next
stopping point where he was instructed...instead he turned at the first stop point...exactly where he wasn't supposed to turn (exactly what was to prevent any excess jet blast behind him).

Bad Pilot!

If any of you have seen Airline the tv show you might have seen where the ramp guy had to push that 737 out of that tight gate. He managed to do so but forgot about the guys who were loading another company 737. The pilot of the already pushed 737 had no choice but to "sand blast" the other guys. So when you sit there and say "PILOT ERROR! PILOT ERROR!!"you have to take into consideration that there must have been other causes that made the a/c power out causing the destruction it did. Just b/c one person says it doesn't mean its factually true, not saying that what you saw was wrong but many things can lead up to different things and this might have just been the wrong positioning of the carts with a pilot who used a bit too much thrust. Again if I'm correct all other a/c, cars, crew must give way to this a/c or any a/c for that matter and even if this a/c powered out too much the fact that stuff could be blown should be taken into consideration.

So before anyone starts pointing fingers a report of the incident would help if anything.

Thanks again.,

UA777222

DL ground maintenance is at fault... the brakes on the baggage carts did not work.... which has always been an issue with those damn baggage carts... inproper maintenance on the ground support equipment... DL DFW has very clear areas where equipment is to be parked... Baggage carts have always been a safety issue... and money saving measures on DLs part so the maintenance of equipment is to blame... you know not enough money given to the maintenance staff to ensure this does not happen... so it is DLs fault... not the pilot or the ramp rat...

Chris,

How would you blame the ramp agent who pushed the 767 back correctly to its stopping point? The pilot failed to go further down the ramp to the next
stopping point where he was instructed...instead he turned at the first stop point...exactly where he wasn't supposed to turn (exactly what was to prevent any excess jet blast behind him).

Bad Pilot!

Hmm...finger-pointing from someone permanently and hopelessly stuck in an entry-level job?

NO WAY!  

Who gives a crap whose fault it is other than the airline? Why does it matter. It was a flipping mistake. DL763DFW, I hate people like you who love to blame pilots. Get a life!

Skymileman-

Funny enough i hate people like you.... You have know idea of the situation, have you ever work an airline?, have your ever worked at DFW?, are you a pilot?, or a Ramp Agent? Most likely not, this event could easily be pilot error, or could just have been one of those things that happen. I have worked on the ramp at DFW for DL, and i am currently a pilot; so i can easily see both views. It matters because some could learn from this event, and this event could impact someones life greatly. However if you do not like the topic of this discussion then by god do not read it or reply to it!



N160LH

[Edited 2004-11-30 05:02:44]