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OzarkD9S
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Would AA Defend STL?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:08 pm

AA's history of brutally defending it's turf is well known. However, STL is the bastard hub of the airline and there are a good number of gates available. I realize the STL topic has been done to death but I wonder if an established LCC (Frontier, AirTran, JetBlue come to mind) did make a full out assault on STL if AA would consider it worth fighting for.

I'm not asking for a detailed analysis of why STL is a lousy hub, or the O&D sucks blah blah blah...just a hypothetical question.

My own guess is they wouldn't go to any great lengths to salvage what's left of AA at STL. Any other thoughts?
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
SESGDL
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:34 pm

Yes, AA would defend STL. Though it's not their biggest or most profitable hub, they basically dominate the airport, and they would defend their turf in STL if they felt competition was going to hurt them. Now if a full-blown hub was opened, it might be easier for AA to just close their operation there, which I don't think is gonna happen. But if B6 of FL or F9 did a full-out assault, AA would defend the hub, most likely in the form of American Eagle or American Connection. They wouldn't defend it like they defend DFW of course, but it's their fortress.

Jeremy
 
ckfred
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:45 pm

I think AA would defend STL. Even though STL is now a stepchild, it still acts as a relief valve is traffic gets horribly congested at ORD or DFW due to weather.


 
B4REAL
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:51 pm

OzarkD9S says: " if an established LCC (Frontier, AirTran, JetBlue come to mind) did make a full out assault on STL if AA would consider it worth fighting for.

Southwest is already there... Not as a hub in the WN-definition of the offering but as a standard Southwest "go-where-most-people-want-to-go" and let's see where we can cut the AA/TW good yielding routes type of offerring.

With that, fares are at a point that make it unattractive for F9, FL, or B6 to come in and freshen it up. STL may be a good example of a good balance of competition where no one airline runs the show, and all airlines operate there with thier mainline operations (DL, AA, UA, US, CO, NW) and regional ops may also be there for these carriers.

Onee big arguement is that MCI is a stronger MCI presence and is relatively close to STL. But look at Dallas and Houston w/ WN. But, WN doesn't do the hub thing, remember, they're nuts.
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ejmmsu
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:02 pm

One thing I like about AA at STL is how easy it is to make a connection there. Its probably the easiest way for me to go OKC-East Coast. There are no long and hectic walks and terminal changes like one would see at DFW or ORD. I think as more and more people with an oppourtunity to connect in STL over DFW and ORD try it, the hub will slowly grow for AA, and relieve a little of the mess in ORD. Would AA fight tooth and nail for STL? Right now it fits their needs well, and I doubt they would even need to.

One thing that has always puzzled me is why AA has not started a few J41's on STL-MCI. These flights wouldn't be to compete with WN, but allow the MCI pax base to make connections in STL. AA has flights on OKC-STL and TUL-STL with direct WN competition, so why not MCI-STL. It doesn't make any sense to me.

[Edited 2004-12-17 05:06:27]
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
moman
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:42 pm

Ejmmsu:

As you probably know, TWA/AA had at least 4 nonstops between MCI and STL up until Nov 2003. Not sure how the loads were though.

YES YES YES, AA would defend STL. In the Post Dispatch earlier this week there was an article about the city/airport spending money on billboards supporting the airport. The manager of AA STL ops, Rhonda Hamm-??? was quoted as saying she didn't mind the ads AS LONG AS THEY DIDN'T PROMOTE A COMPETITIOR. The airport is still bending over head over heeels to keep AA happy as well.

As a further note, even though AA cut back many STL flights they have added back some over the past year, especially after competitiors offered flights (think LAX with F9) and some other destinations have went to mainline from RJs to keep competitive.

I really would expect to see a STL-PDX flight return in the next couple years. WN is ruling this route.

AA is in STL to stay. I really see them increasing ops there in the future as long as United stays in business. If United were to vacate Ohare, STL would be a complete ghost town.

Moman
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LambertMan
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:00 pm

Ozark,

This is really a question that I have long thought about myself. Would it really be worth fighting for? It's really hard to say given our lack of financial information, but I would venture to say yes. Some of the routes that they posess out of St Louis are some pretty solid routes that any airline would love to have examples would include:

BOS,DCA,LGA,LAX,DFW,SEA(Boeing),JAX(A-B),CMH(National City Bank)

Given our recent information, and recent additions to the schedule it appears as though it is a pretty strong hub for AA albeit the bastard hub.

Ejmmsu,
OKC came back because of political lobbying, and didn't TUL come back for MX purposes? I'm not sure on the TUL situation, but OKC is def. because of politics, and apparently its doing pretty well with its 50 dollar price hike.

Bringing back MCI wouldn't be a bad idea, but I think for the most part they will stay away from WN-heavy routes as much as possible without outside incentives. Maybe look for DTW in the future, but not much more.

Moman,
I agree w/ the PDX statement, but WN doesn't fly STL-PDX. And if AA were to vacate St Louis for ORD, LCC's would be in here like the plague.

To sum it up, really I think that if it came down to a hypothetical assault on AA by some LCC (which more than likely wont happen), AA would protect what they have and shrink it to an o/d station. Somewhat of a RDU re-birth....
 
masseybrown
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:46 pm

National City is a CLE bank.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:58 pm

I think AA would bail on STL in a heartbeat if another carrier came hunting, seriously hunting at STL. AA already gutted STL when they obliterated TW, so I'm not so sure they wouldn't just throw their hands up and get out leaving a small O/D station there.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Timaay419
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:08 pm

I didn't understand why AA cancelled their STL-MCI in the first place. At this time last year I was a student at the Univ. of Kansas, and did the STL-MCI very frequently. Up until Nov 1st I used AA, for obvious reasons. The loads were always full, no matter what time of the day. When I had to switch to *gulp* southwest, I overheard multiple people complaining about the fact that American had cancelled that route. ALOT of business people go to/from STL in the early AM, and return later the same day. Southwests loads are also very full, and only have 5 flights a day. I can see AA bringing back a couple flights a day, if not AA Connection, maybe even mainline.
-Tim
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:37 am

You forget that AA still maintains a sizable presence at STL, and along with WN, makes it unattractive for any LCC to open up a "hub". There simply are not enough routes to cherry-pick that are not already served. I think we are done with the days of airlines, even LCC's opening up anymore "hubs." Focus cities, sure, a decent amount of p2p, but there is not the need to open up large connecting facilities that cost alot, when there are a ton of point to point routes that can effectively be flown.
 
LambertMan
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:34 am

MasseyBrown,

Hmmm....my sister said she always uses AA to CMH, maybe she meant CLE.

[Edited 2004-12-17 18:37:16]
 
atrude777
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:01 am

Hey

Pretty much everyone has said the same things i want to say.. I doubt AA would leave in a "heartbeat" as Lambertman said there are just alot of too good money makers for AA to leave like BOS and LAX etc etc. Southwest has a sizeable presence there too, possibly adding PHL as a n/s? Anyway, I am seeing AA adding SAT, CMH and TUL as mainline, meaning they jumped right into mainline for TUL, not even an RJ flight first, and saw the succes of CMH and SAT and added mainline, as well as MSY being mainline. I saw that AA has added a 757 STL-DFW sat , im assuming thats because of the drop of the STL-SJU? AA is happy with STL, and im sure they are here to stay for awhile who knows they may be holding out for the intl flights when the new runway is complete alotting space for bigger planes?? or am i still dreaming?
Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
MAH4546
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:43 am

Anyway, I am seeing AA adding SAT, CMH and TUL as mainline, meaning they jumped right into mainline for TUL, not even an RJ flight first,

No, the only reason STL-TUL is mainline is because Tulsa is a major AA maintence base for their M80s, so they need to get M80s in and out of Tulsa on a daily basis. The STL-TUL M80 flight allows M80s to go to Tulsa to get some maintence work done.
a.
 
Air1727
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:45 am

AAL would defend STL, but not to the point of causing harm to themselves. STL is already structured as an O/D gateway; nothing more. The real question is; how many comissioners and airport authority heads would give up the back channel and lobby of American in Saint Louis to make it more suitable for LCC entrance. Probably few to none. But thats a whole other story that is in the shadows and will probably stay in the shadows.
In the Alaska bush I'd rather have a two hour bladder and three hours of gas than vice versa.
 
moman
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 8:47 am

Aatrude:

I'm dreaming for at least 1 intl flight again .....maybe the first one will be to LGW.

LambertMan:

Thought WN had a STL-PDX route, and if not, why did AA drop it?

Air1727:

Have to partly disagree about the O/D part, STL still has quite a few connections, even though most traffic is now O/D. I've checked quite a few routes not O/D in STL and found a routing through there, say from TPA-STL-DCA instead of TPA-MIA-DCA; TPA-STL-RDU, etc.

AA has also added larger jets to some routes instead of increasing frequency. I'd take smaller jets/more frequency over the larger jets/less freq. any day. STL-MCO 1xMD80, 1x757 instead of 2xMD80 like it used to be. STL-TPA now has 1x757 and 1xMD80 instead of 2xMD80 as well. STL also has RJ flights on Saturday to MCO & TPA.

Moman


AA Platinum Member - American Airlines Forever
 
atrude777
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:25 am

MAH- Thanks for pointing that out for me. I WAS kind of wondering why a sudden jump to the MD80's. Still nice for those that would like to fly non-stop to TUL on SA)">AA and not on Southwest.

Moman- ALL STL's people are dreaming of another intl flight. It will happen just we need patience im sure  Big grin Also, the examples you used didnt seem to support your claim, because you said SA)">AA has added bigger planes and less frequency, all the examples you have shown are BIGGER PLANES and SAME frequencies i see no drop. Do you claim smaller jets as in MD80 due to the MRTC feature? Just trying to understand your point.


Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
Air1727
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:55 pm

Moman, connections alone don't make an airport a hub; in the purest form of the terminology. A lot more goes into it than that. Percentage of daily movements system wide, aircraft scheduling dynamics, planning, etc. all go into developing a true hub. For loosely stated purposes, yes STL is a hub for American, but DFW/ORD/MIA are the real deal in the purest form. STL is a simple, glorified O/D gateway with an average seasonal curve in scheduling to match demand.
In the Alaska bush I'd rather have a two hour bladder and three hours of gas than vice versa.
 
moman
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Thu Dec 30, 2004 12:44 am

Atrude777,

Yeah I didn't support my claim well. What AA did on some routes is moved from 3 x MD80 dailies to 1xMD80 & 1x757. (STL-TPA) They have done that on a lot of the STL-MCO as well. Now they have less frequency but a bigger plane on one flight. (The 2x should be a 3x in my original post).

Moman
AA Platinum Member - American Airlines Forever
 
Thrust
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:38 am

AA is showing more and more everyday that they would defend STL. They have been increasing Boeing 757 service at STL. I believe they have recently placed them on more STL-DFW routes. For the first time in a long time the other day at STL I saw two Boeing 757s parked side by side. The planes on the STL routes gradually are getting bigger, and so is mainline service. STL is no DFW, MIA, or ORD, but the ORD traffic may eventually flow into STL due to congestion. AA's current routes out of STL have been generating profits from what I am hearing. I am no doubt convinced STL will remain a hub for AA for quite a long time. The only other thing I would like to see AA do is reinstate at least one longhaul flight like STL-HNL or STL-LGW.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
stlgph
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:49 am

On the topic of AA defending STL......under Arpey, I'd place money they'd sell it the highest bidder in a heartbeat with a starting price of nearly $250-$300 million. I think that is half of the $500 million they initially paid for TWA (excluding debt acquisitions). AA management and board of directors I bet are still kicking themselves for even buying the airline in the first place. Isn't the size of AA's mainline fleet now actually less than what it was before they bought TWA? Of course, that is probably a whole new topic I am starting which will lead to dozens of threads on their dumping of the 717's...but just an afterthought I had here.

Under Carty...they'd keep it around and the cut backs may or may not have taken place...probably a lot of mainline to RJ replacements, but STL would be more of a hub than the O&D operation it is today. Walking through C and looking at vacated D is a sad sad sad sight to see.


On other notes--

I think the denizens of STL are dreaming more for the STL-HNL flight to return. TWA 001 was always historically sold out, with connecting traffic, but very heavy domestic traffic comprised of the who's who of St. Louis. It also didn't matter if there were 5 tornados, a hurricane, a blizzard, a meteor shower, aerial bombings, and the long awaited ground assault from East St. Louis to the western banks of the Mississippi, and a three week long groundstop....TWA 001 always managed to depart for Honolulu packed to the bones.

Agreed on the STL-MCI routes. A lot of intrastate business traffic on that route each day. A few Eagle flights at the very least would be very smart. For a 35 minute or so flight, people would probably love the convenience of being able to get right on and right off of the Eagle planes without having to wait for 100 plus or so people getting on and off and fighting for a seat and stowing their luggage. Same could be done with IND and even though there is near hourly service to Chicago, an additional four or five flights a day around business travel times wouldn't hurt and would probably fare very well for the airline.

















if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
TWFirst
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Thu Dec 30, 2004 2:01 am

>>I think that is half of the $500 million they initially paid for TWA (excluding debt acquisitions). <<

AA paid $250 million for the TW assets they bought out of bankruptcy, and they didn't assume any TW debt... that's why they structured the deal the way they did.



>>Isn't the size of AA's mainline fleet now actually less than what it was before they bought TWA?<<

No, it is larger.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
Thrust
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Thu Dec 30, 2004 2:04 am

It is indeed very strange that AA dropped the STL-HNL route if indeed the flight was always full. THat should spell profit right there. However, would it not get full as easily since STL is no longer the legendary connecting airport it used to be? And how did STL-LGW do with TWA? i just want to get a better idea if it would indeed be reasonable to assume these routes might return.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
TWFirst
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Thu Dec 30, 2004 2:16 am

>>It is indeed very strange that AA dropped the STL-HNL route if indeed the flight was always full. THat should spell profit right there. However, would it not get full as easily since STL is no longer the legendary connecting airport it used to be? And how did STL-LGW do with TWA? <<

Bingo. A STL-HNL flight would only have a fraction of the feed, plus HNL is historically a low-yield market... thus why AA cancelled it.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
contrails
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Thu Dec 30, 2004 2:24 am

AA defend STL? What is there to defend? A handfull of flights every day, a bunch of empty gates? I flew into STL a couple of months ago on WN, and the place was a ghost-town.

I hope somebody, either a legacy carrier or a LCC, moves in to STL and does well there.
Flying Colors Forever!
 
spyglass
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:24 am

Protecting the pre-eminence of the DFW operation and to a lesser degree ORD, had a great deal to do with the downsizing of STL. Much was made of "maximum efficient use of resources", etc, but you can bet politics was the major factor. The DFW Airport Council doubtless put the arm on AA about running too much traffic thru STL ("What the Sam Hill's goin' on here!? 'Sa big idee a' runnin' all them passengers up there ta' Saint Looey? WE need them folks connectin' thru HERE...Them should be OUR passengers! WE need the dough from them passengers....'fer cryin' out loud, we're spendin' over a BILLYUN bucks on that there D term'nil bildin' an' that fancy overhead train! C'mon, y'all back offa that hubbin' business up thar an' route them people thru here! 'Sides, how we ever gonna get big as Uhlanna if y'all keep flyin' them folks other places!?....C'mon, play ball here!!....") And of course, AA craves getting the business travellers back, the ones they feel are not that sensitive to ticket prices, who just need to go when they need to. So the operative word is yield, not so much load factor. There are certain metro areas considered "go-go cities" that the above mentioned business folks travel to often and AA is very interested in generating all the traffic they can at those locales. Places that have experienced rapid growth in the last 10-15 years, like PHX, AUS, HOU, LAX, SAN, ATL, CLT, DCA, DEN, SEA, etc. Also the megalopoli NYC, ORD, SFO, PHL, MIA, which are so big they generate sufficient traffic already(LAX and DCA would actually be in that category, too). They also hafta maintain schedules to the low-yield but popular leisure destinations (HNL, LAS, MCO,etc) as well as the soon-to-be-threatened Caribbean and Mexican spots. Ergo STL doesn't really fit there, as metro growth there since 1990 has barely been 5%. So even though most folks, given a choice, would rather connect there than one of the monster hubs, and aside from the fact that it's the only true non-directional hub in the country, it got dumped. Too bad. OKC used to have 5 80's a day thru there and they were always full, we lost 'em...replaced by 3 Transtates Barbie Jets. Folks here did not laud that turn of events....but c'est la vie. And getting a LGW flt back....? With BOS, NYC, MIA, ORD & DFW already on line, it's one less place to deal with customs. Now, when the 3rd runway is complete and wx delays wouldn't be as much of a problem, it would be attractive as a real hub from a purely operational standpoint, but politics will probably prevent that from happening....shame.
I don't think that even if WN decided to ramp up opns there from around 70 a day to, say, 100, that it would have much bearing on AA's ops. STL will be used mostly to and from "non-essential" places like Paducah, Peoria, Evansville and the like and leave most of the "serious" cnx to Chicago and DFW.
I remember when......a plane trip was a big deal.
 
dsuairptman
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:20 pm

AA would defend STL about as much as they defended those former TWA workers. Don't believe that, take a look at the number seats and route map from STL compared to what it used to be, you see a lot places downgraded to props and RJs and some places off the map altoghter. You don't even see much of American Eagle their, Just Trans States, the only TWA holdover to really do well under the AA code.

AA commitment is to its fortress in DFW and staging a politcal turf war with WN defines what AA is defending, it status as DFW dominant airline, which is fair, since DFW is AA's home, losing ground there would permenatly injure them. After that comes ORD and MIA, AA other two hubs, then there money making slots to Heathrow, and to a lesser extent there domestic money maker, slots at DCA, and Eagle ops out of JFK and BOS. STL must have some purpose for AA, or it would have been axed by now. Despite being left on the Offense, AA probaly could make good use of STL as collteral againsit the day of one these senarios happening:

WN moves to DFW or eleminates Wright Amendment powers: Good-bye to the power dynasty AA once had over the metroplex. The will still and always be a strong contender in the Metroplex, but they will go liming off on a broken wing to STL, where, in this case, you'll see a AA shoring things up overnight. Expect a lot upgrades in mainline flts. and new non stops added to the route map form STL. The build up will be intended for AA to recoup fiancial loses at Dallas, and keep WN at bay from builidng up a 2nd sting attack (of the shorts) at STL.

WN stays at status qou: Despite legalities and poltical ramifications. WN does not grow much beyond its current limitations. AA remains dominant carrier, STL stays status qou.

Other possiblities include AA positing itself to build STL up outside the current scenarios due to STL georgpahic location at the heart of the country and providind timely equi-distance conx. from four large geographical sectors meeting at STL.

WN may try a fast one and ramp up their STL ops, but I think its doubtful. STL is a large market for WN, but not neccesairly a mega one or a market located in there current area of intrest, the Northeast and US Airways country. In that case AA would take the defensive at STL and would fight back hard.

STL does serve AA with some imortant facets. A local base of travelers at STL plus the numerous places in the mid-river valley that provide feed into the system.
GEAUX SAINTS!
 
ha763
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Thu Dec 30, 2004 5:25 pm

BTW, the STL-HNL flight was always full because STL used to be a hub and the connections fed into the flight. Without the connections, there wasn't enough traffic to continue to the flight. Instead, AA added capacity to Hawaii from ORD and DFW.
 
LambertMan
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:19 pm

Back when they flew the whales on STL-HNL, connecting traffic was roughly 65-80% of the passengers which means there were somewhere in the mid 100's of St Louisans using the flight each day. I don't really think we'll ever see the return of HNL, but I could envision a few more west coast flights.
 
iowaman
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RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:57 pm

AA defend STL? What is there to defend?

All of this:

Washington, DC American 683 07:54 AM Arrived
New York, NY American 2243 07:55 AM Arrived
Baltimore, MD American 1155 07:59 AM Arrived
Dallas, TX American 500 08:01 AM Arrived
Chicago, IL American 407 08:05 AM Arrived
Boston, MA American 2403 08:17 AM Arrived
Chicago, IL American 417 09:10 AM Arrived
Miami, FL American 479 09:37 AM Arrived
Dallas, TX American 1602 10:03 AM Arrived
New York, NY American 421 10:25 AM Arrived
New Orleans, LA American 1794 11:13 AM Arrived
Dallas, TX American 622 12:08 PM Arrived
Seattle, WA American 1992 12:12 PM Arrived
Los Angeles, CA American 582 12:21 PM Arrived
Las Vegas, NV American 594 12:25 PM Arrived
Orlando, FL American 1127 12:45 PM Arrived
Chicago, IL American 419 12:55 PM Arrived
Tampa, FL American 2293 01:05 PM Arrived
Dallas, TX American 608 01:30 PM Arrived
New York, NY American 1757 01:45 PM Arrived
San Antonio, TX American 706 02:12 PM Arrived
Chicago, IL American 871 02:16 PM Arrived
Fort Lauderdale, FL American 1515 02:24 PM Arrived
Dallas, TX American 2024 02:34 PM Arrived
Dallas, TX American 1410 03:30 PM Arrived
Columbus, OH American 1745 03:32 PM Arrived
Seattle, WA American 852 03:58 PM Arrived
Chicago, IL American 435 04:08 PM Arrived
New York, NY American 555 04:51 PM Arrived
San Diego, CA American 682 05:01 PM Arrived
Santa Ana, CA American 2282 05:19 PM Arrived
Chicago, IL American 1771 05:46 PM Arrived
Los Angeles, CA American 2294 05:51 PM Arrived
Washington, DC American 1993 05:58 PM Arrived
San Francisco, CA American 742 06:24 PM Arrived
Dallas, TX American 830 06:33 PM Arrived
Dallas, TX American 1322 06:49 PM Arrived
Tampa, FL American 533 07:26 PM Arrived
Baltimore, MD American 449 08:05 PM Arrived
Chicago, IL American 1526 08:09 PM Arrived
Fort Myers, FL American 1795 08:15 PM Arrived
New York, NY American 2019 08:18 PM Arrived
Dallas, TX American 1538 08:20 PM Arrived
Chicago, IL American 1967 08:31 PM Arrived
Orlando, FL American 589 08:45 PM Arrived
Las Vegas, NV American 854 08:51 PM Arrived
Boston, MA American 1987 08:57 PM Arrived
Los Angeles, CA American 768 09:36 PM Arrived
Dallas, TX American 1858 09:44 PM Arrived
Dallas, TX American 2090 10:43 PM In Flight
Los Angeles, CA American 2246 12:54 AM In Flight
Raleigh/Durham, NC American Eagle 705 07:26 AM Arrived
Raleigh/Durham, NC American Eagle 707 12:59 PM Arrived
Boston, MA American Eagle 471 02:59 PM Arrived
Raleigh/Durham, NC American Eagle 670 03:57 PM Arrived
Boston, MA American Eagle 498 06:02 PM Arrived
Raleigh/Durham, NC American Eagle 696 06:44 PM Arrived
Raleigh/Durham, NC American Eagle 668 09:18 PM Arrived
Dayton, OH Chautauqua Airlines 5826 06:02 AM Arrived
Washington, DC Chautauqua Airlines 5868 07:08 AM Arrived
Columbus, OH Chautauqua Airlines 5855 07:50 AM Arrived
Norfolk, VA Chautauqua Airlines 5814 08:10 AM Arrived
Richmond, VA Chautauqua Airlines 5778 08:38 AM Arrived
San Antonio, TX Chautauqua Airlines 5805 08:57 AM Arrived
Wichita, KS Chautauqua Airlines 5780 09:16 AM Arrived
Minneapolis, MN Chautauqua Airlines 5782 09:17 AM Arrived
Minneapolis, MN Chautauqua Airlines 5874 10:12 AM Arrived
Indianapolis, IN Chautauqua Airlines 9891 11:09 AM Arrived
Milwaukee, WI Chautauqua Airlines 5790 11:26 AM Arrived
Denver, CO Chautauqua Airlines 5802 11:34 AM Arrived
San Antonio, TX Chautauqua Airlines 5806 11:40 AM Arrived
Nashville, TN Chautauqua Airlines 5863 11:50 AM Arrived
Newark, NJ Chautauqua Airlines 5787 12:08 PM Arrived
Richmond, VA Chautauqua Airlines 5810 12:37 PM Arrived
Columbus, OH Chautauqua Airlines 5796 01:14 PM Arrived
Minneapolis, MN Chautauqua Airlines 5820 01:32 PM Arrived
Norfolk, VA Chautauqua Airlines 5798 01:39 PM Arrived
Washington, DC Chautauqua Airlines 5816 01:47 PM Arrived
Newark, NJ Chautauqua Airlines 5858 01:59 PM Arrived
Minneapolis, MN Chautauqua Airlines 5876 02:23 PM Arrived
Newark, NJ Chautauqua Airlines 5854 02:49 PM Arrived
Milwaukee, WI Chautauqua Airlines 5846 02:52 PM Arrived
Wichita, KS Chautauqua Airlines 5781 03:28 PM Arrived
Philadelphia, PA Chautauqua Airlines 3173 03:29 PM Arrived
Atlanta, GA Chautauqua Airlines 5882 03:47 PM Arrived
Nashville, TN Chautauqua Airlines 5872 04:32 PM Arrived
Minneapolis, MN Chautauqua Airlines 5878 04:37 PM Arrived
Washington, DC Chautauqua Airlines 5783 05:23 PM Arrived
Newark, NJ Chautauqua Airlines 5824 05:40 PM Arrived
Newark, NJ Chautauqua Airlines 5795 05:51 PM Arrived
Dayton, OH Chautauqua Airlines 5890 06:10 PM Arrived
Norfolk, VA Chautauqua Airlines 5828 06:32 PM Arrived
Wichita, KS Chautauqua Airlines 5886 06:37 PM Arrived
San Antonio, TX Chautauqua Airlines 5812 06:56 PM Arrived
Atlanta, GA Chautauqua Airlines 5784 07:16 PM Arrived
Washington, DC Chautauqua Airlines 5818 07:40 PM Arrived
Minneapolis, MN Chautauqua Airlines 5870 08:24 PM Arrived
Newark, NJ Chautauqua Airlines 5848 08:37 PM Arrived
Atlanta, GA Chautauqua Airlines 5880 08:55 PM Arrived
Newark, NJ Chautauqua Airlines 5850 09:31 PM Arrived
Philadelphia, PA Chautauqua Airlines 5776 09:33 PM Arrived
Cape Girardeau, MO Corporate Express Airlines 5900 06:24 AM Arrived
Marion, IL Corporate Express Airlines 5906 06:29 AM Arrived
Quincy, IL Corporate Express Airlines 5993 06:37 AM Arrived
Paducah, KY Corporate Express Airlines 5984 06:38 AM Arrived
Burlington, IA Corporate Express Airlines 5952 06:56 AM Arrived
Fort Leonard Wood, MO Corporate Express Airlines 5915 07:15 AM Arrived
Owensboro, KY Corporate Express Airlines 5960 07:21 AM Arrived
Kirksville, MO Corporate Express Airlines 5967 07:22 AM Arrived
Nashville, TN Corporate Express Airlines 5950 09:12 AM Arrived
Quincy, IL Corporate Express Airlines 5996 11:06 AM Arrived
Paducah, KY Corporate Express Airlines 5986 11:18 AM Arrived
Fort Leonard Wood, MO Corporate Express Airlines 5917 11:33 AM Arrived
Evansville, IN Corporate Express Airlines 5942 11:43 AM Arrived
Jackson, TN Corporate Express Airlines 5970 11:52 AM Arrived
Burlington, IA Corporate Express Airlines 5958 12:08 PM Arrived
Cape Girardeau, MO Corporate Express Airlines 5902 12:18 PM Arrived
Marion, IL Corporate Express Airlines 5908 12:21 PM Arrived
Owensboro, KY Corporate Express Airlines 5962 01:09 PM Arrived
Kirksville, MO Corporate Express Airlines 5969 02:32 PM Arrived
Marion, IL Corporate Express Airlines 5910 02:54 PM Arrived
Quincy, IL Corporate Express Airlines 5994 03:00 PM Arrived
Nashville, TN Corporate Express Airlines 5948 03:10 PM Arrived
Jackson, TN Corporate Express Airlines 5974 04:46 PM Arrived
Evansville, IN Corporate Express Airlines 5944 05:13 PM Arrived
Burlington, IA Corporate Express Airlines 5954 05:24 PM Arrived
Cape Girardeau, MO Corporate Express Airlines 5904 05:29 PM Arrived
Owensboro, KY Corporate Express Airlines 5964 05:35 PM Arrived
Paducah, KY Corporate Express Airlines 5990 05:39 PM Arrived
Marion, IL Corporate Express Airlines 5912 05:42 PM Arrived
Quincy, IL Corporate Express Airlines 5998 05:43 PM Arrived
Fort Leonard Wood, MO Corporate Express Airlines 5919 05:53 PM Arrived
Charlotte, NC Trans States Airlines 5635 06:40 AM Arrived
Decatur, IL Trans States Airlines 5481 06:44 AM Arrived
Columbia, MO Trans States Airlines 5482 06:44 AM Arrived
Springfield, IL Trans States Airlines 5533 06:48 AM Arrived
Springfield, MO Trans States Airlines 5489 06:55 AM Arrived
Joplin, MO Trans States Airlines 5537 07:02 AM Arrived
Nashville, TN Trans States Airlines 5649 07:04 AM Arrived
Cedar Rapids, IA Trans States Airlines 5502 07:05 AM Arrived
Champaign, IL Trans States Airlines 5558 07:08 AM Arrived
Memphis, TN Trans States Airlines 5518 07:15 AM Arrived
Philadelphia, PA Trans States Airlines 5709 07:16 AM Arrived
Bloomington-Normal, IL Trans States Airlines 5500 07:43 AM Arrived
Jacksonville, FL Trans States Airlines 5645 07:49 AM Arrived
Milwaukee, WI Trans States Airlines 5772 08:12 AM Arrived
Fayetteville, AR Trans States Airlines 5475 08:23 AM Arrived
Oklahoma City, OK Trans States Airlines 5739 08:41 AM Arrived
Des Moines, IA Trans States Airlines 5720 08:48 AM Arrived
Hartford, CT Trans States Airlines 5617 08:55 AM Arrived
Denver, CO Trans States Airlines 5676 08:56 AM Arrived
Indianapolis, IN Trans States Airlines 5499 09:16 AM Arrived
Austin, TX Trans States Airlines 5674 09:36 AM Arrived
Washington, DC Trans States Airlines 8015 10:01 AM Arrived
Springfield, IL Trans States Airlines 5510 11:09 AM Arrived
Cincinnati, OH Trans States Airlines 5514 11:09 AM Arrived
Pittsburgh, PA Trans States Airlines 3552 11:13 AM Arrived
Philadelphia, PA Trans States Airlines 5660 11:17 AM Arrived
Columbia, MO Trans States Airlines 5505 11:20 AM Arrived
Decatur, IL Trans States Airlines 5560 11:31 AM Arrived
Atlanta, GA Trans States Airlines 5620 11:32 AM Arrived
Washington, DC Trans States Airlines 5756 11:34 AM Arrived
Chicago, IL Trans States Airlines 8029 12:16 PM Arrived
Springfield, MO Trans States Airlines 5556 12:19 PM Arrived
Peoria, IL Trans States Airlines 5519 12:24 PM Arrived
Cedar Rapids, IA Trans States Airlines 5545 12:24 PM Arrived
Pittsburgh, PA Trans States Airlines 3509 12:32 PM Arrived
Memphis, TN Trans States Airlines 5527 12:40 PM Arrived
Washington, DC Trans States Airlines 5753 12:41 PM Arrived
Cincinnati, OH Trans States Airlines 5509 12:43 PM Arrived
Jacksonville, FL Trans States Airlines 5644 12:48 PM Arrived
Fayetteville, AR Trans States Airlines 5477 12:49 PM Arrived
Philadelphia, PA Trans States Airlines 5662 12:49 PM Arrived
Oklahoma City, OK Trans States Airlines 5762 12:55 PM Arrived
Madison, WI Trans States Airlines 5540 01:02 PM Arrived
Hartford, CT Trans States Airlines 5619 01:34 PM Arrived
Denver, CO Trans States Airlines 5688 01:41 PM Arrived
Atlanta, GA Trans States Airlines 5650 01:56 PM Arrived
Springfield, IL Trans States Airlines 5548 02:05 PM Arrived
Washington, DC Trans States Airlines 5755 02:13 PM Arrived
Austin, TX Trans States Airlines 5636 02:28 PM Arrived
Chicago, IL Trans States Airlines 8003 02:35 PM Arrived
Colorado Springs, CO Trans States Airlines 5698 02:51 PM Arrived
Springfield, IL Trans States Airlines 5535 02:58 PM Arrived
Columbia, MO Trans States Airlines 5491 03:22 PM Arrived
Philadelphia, PA Trans States Airlines 5654 03:23 PM Arrived
Bloomington-Normal, IL Trans States Airlines 5554 03:31 PM Arrived
Washington, DC Trans States Airlines 8017 03:40 PM Arrived
Des Moines, IA Trans States Airlines 5726 03:43 PM Arrived
Champaign, IL Trans States Airlines 5550 04:34 PM Arrived
Fayetteville, AR Trans States Airlines 5473 04:51 PM Arrived
Decatur, IL Trans States Airlines 5542 05:07 PM Arrived
Chicago, IL Trans States Airlines 8011 05:07 PM Arrived
Joplin, MO Trans States Airlines 5528 05:09 PM Arrived
Springfield, IL Trans States Airlines 5516 05:18 PM Arrived
Peoria, IL Trans States Airlines 5521 05:19 PM Arrived
Cincinnati, OH Trans States Airlines 5559 05:20 PM Arrived
Springfield, MO Trans States Airlines 5531 05:21 PM Arrived
Pittsburgh, PA Trans States Airlines 3536 05:29 PM Arrived
Hartford, CT Trans States Airlines 5631 05:34 PM Arrived
Fayetteville, AR Trans States Airlines 5479 05:35 PM Arrived
Denver, CO Trans States Airlines 5622 05:48 PM Arrived
Philadelphia, PA Trans States Airlines 5664 05:48 PM Arrived
Columbia, MO Trans States Airlines 5492 05:50 PM Arrived
Atlanta, GA Trans States Airlines 5652 05:54 PM Arrived
Memphis, TN Trans States Airlines 5520 05:56 PM Arrived
Indianapolis, IN Trans States Airlines 5526 06:06 PM Arrived
Des Moines, IA Trans States Airlines 5728 06:07 PM Arrived
Oklahoma City, OK Trans States Airlines 5766 06:09 PM Arrived
Charlotte, NC Trans States Airlines 5632 06:28 PM Arrived
Pittsburgh, PA Trans States Airlines 3522 06:44 PM Arrived
Cedar Rapids, IA Trans States Airlines 5507 06:52 PM Arrived
New Orleans, LA Trans States Airlines 5628 06:59 PM Arrived
Philadelphia, PA Trans States Airlines 5668 07:02 PM Arrived
Austin, TX Trans States Airlines 5704 07:14 PM Arrived
Denver, CO Trans States Airlines 5614 07:19 PM Arrived
Milwaukee, WI Trans States Airlines 5658 07:24 PM Arrived
Chicago, IL Trans States Airlines 8035 08:14 PM Arrived
Washington, DC Trans States Airlines 8069 08:27 PM Arrived
Madison, WI Trans States Airlines 5497 08:29 PM Arrived
Washington, DC Trans States Airlines 5692 08:40 PM Arrived
Denver, CO Trans States Airlines 5748 09:01 PM Arrived
Chicago, IL Trans States Airlines 8023 09:09 PM Scheduled
Chicago, IL Trans States Airlines 8031 11:12 PM Planned
 
stl30l
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:06 pm

RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:16 pm

Being a weekly traveler on AA out of Lambert for the last 3.5 years I would definitely hope that AA would defend STL. I think AA is moving in the right direction with their service in STL, since the cutbacks AA has resumed service to OKC, RIC, TUL and upgraded to mainline on several routes (LGA,DCA,CMH,TUL,SAT...). This past summer AA did survey of their platinum flyers in which I participated and I expressed my concerns over the level of service in STL, being forced to connect through ORD and DFW and 3 hour flights on AX ERJ's. To my surprise the person who conducted my survey admitted that AA cutback service to STL too much and that they were re-evaluating their service out of STL. Since then AA has announced new cities and upgraded services out of STL http://www.aa.com/content/aboutUs/newServiceRoutes.jhtml?anchorEvent=false Any ideas on new destinations to be served out of STL or any possible upgrades to mainline? I would think EWR would be high on the list to move to mainline service. STL is still fortunate to have nonstop service to most destinations even if it is on AX, in my travels over the last 3 years there have only been 2 cities I have traveled to that did not have direct service from STL on AA. TYS and PDX. I doubt STL will return to the glory days of TWA anytime in the near future but I do miss flying TWA.
STL AA Exec Platinum Flyer
 
aa777jr
Posts: 2269
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:03 pm

RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:29 pm

Why did AA stop STL-LGW, I missed a ORD-LHR flight and was routed STL-LGW a few summers ago.

AA777jr
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
LambertMan
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:26 pm

RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:45 pm

AA stopped STL-LGW because it was largely filled with tourists, and in the winters it was a poor performer. Summer flights were full, but as mentioned above, it was a 767 filled with tourists which usually doesn't equal a very profitable flight. Depending on F class I guess....

STL30L,

My bets would probably be placed on EWR or RDU, EWR for the business traffic and RDU because of what I was told last year. The last mainline additions they made were a bit of a surprise, so I'm not really certain what AA will do next. It would be nice to see the reinstatement of PDX, which I think could be one of the stronger routes out of STL.
 
stl30l
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:06 pm

RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:48 pm

LGW was one of the 20+ destinations that AA dropped out of STL on 11/03. My guess would be that without all of the connecting passengers in STL they would be unable to fill the daily STL-LGW flight. Plus LGW is just a bit outside the range of AX ERJs  Laugh out loud
STL AA Exec Platinum Flyer
 
stl30l
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:06 pm

RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:54 pm

Lambertman,

Recently when I flew from PDX to STL on a red-eye with a connection through DFW, the ticket agent at PDX commented that he didn't know why AA dropped the route and that it went out nearly completely full every night.
STL AA Exec Platinum Flyer
 
STLUAL747
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 6:19 am

RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Sat Jan 01, 2005 6:49 am

This is my first post on airliners.net so I am kind of nervous.

Anyways what plane was used on the STL-PDX flight, and are there any airlines that serve PDX directly from STL?
Lonely in Deserted St. Louis.
 
stl30l
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:06 pm

RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Sat Jan 01, 2005 7:12 am

Welcome to Airliners! Yesterday was my first posts as well. I believe the STL-PDX flights where operated on the MD80 but I haven't yet found a source to verify this.
STL AA Exec Platinum Flyer
 
777STL
Posts: 2770
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:22 am

RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Sat Jan 01, 2005 7:51 am

w00t w00t more STL people.

Ahem...sorry.

-77
PHX based
 
moman
Posts: 708
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:17 am

RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Sat Jan 01, 2005 9:43 am

STLUAL747:

I can confirm that STL-PDX was operated with MD-80 equipment. I wrote earlier that I expected this flight to return in the near future.

BTW, welcome aboard. We can always use more people interested in STL instead of writing it off as AA's "bastard" hub that will be cut immediately if they would only get smart enough to do so.  Big grin

STL30L, I think it's common knowledge that AA cut back too severly in STL. The Post Dispatch has many articles about that and AA has pretty much admitted it as well. Now let them rectify their mistake, we will support them!

Moman
AA Platinum Member - American Airlines Forever
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:22 am

RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:35 am

AA would welcome another carrier setting up shop at STL on a big time basis. They would still serve STL but with less then 50 departures a day. They can't compete with WN. Why do you think there are so many RJ's at STL compared with 18 months ago. Iowaman has a nice list of them, just above. Toss in a couple of MD 80's and 757 or two and you have an airline..or do you?.
Mainline AA(no eagles please) is SMALLER in fleet then the summer of 2001.
I have that documented with fleet books over the years, TWFIRST.
Parked airlines in the desert do not count. They are not being utilized.
Don't sweat another carrier coming to STL with a large bank of flights. The other carriers aren't stupid either. They will AA take the hit and pray the Wright amendment is overturned. Then AA will have real problems at its own back door.
That's business, gang. Cruel world, isn't it?
Happy 2005 to all.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
atrude777
Posts: 4343
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Sun Jan 02, 2005 3:18 am

Hey

I still see some hope for AA adding even more to STL, especially if ORD needs some cutbacks. It is nice to have WN at STL because it keeps the prices low, believe me, if WN wasn't there i WOULDNT be flying AA all the time as i wouldn't be able to afford it. So i am glad WN is there to provide variety at STL and to keep prices low. I still hope to see an intl flight within the next 10 yrs from AA to an oversea city.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
stl30l
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:06 pm

RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:57 am

Only those routes on which WN competes with AA have the fares remained low over the last 2 years. I flew weekly between STL and EWR for almost 2 years and the price was consistent every week the first year after 11/2003 the price more than tripled when the route switched over to AX and only connecting through ORD produced a slightly lower fare than AX. The STL-EWR route is also served by Continental and all they did was match the fare increase and upgrade the equipment on a couple of their dailies to 737. Currently, I am flying STL-IAD weekly and United also serves the route but airfares are still much higher than they were before the cutbacks and many times I am still forced to connect through ORD to get the lowest fare even though ORD to IAD is AE service. In a USA today article a couple of months ago featuring the high cost of walk up fares STL-BOS made the top 10 highest walk-up fares in the country. I guess this just shows the effect of LCC versus Legacy carriers on route airfares.

Also, on defending STL. I think I read somewhere awhile ago that AA was required to maintain 200 flights a day as a term of their lease agreements with the airport?
STL AA Exec Platinum Flyer
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:28 am

I thought they had to maintain the 200 daily just to break even? Perhaps I am wrong, and I know I'm going to get flamed for it now.
 
Air1727
Posts: 318
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:57 am

RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:34 am

Getting flamed here is pretty par for the course WAL318  Big grin

Nice to see more STL people though. Welcome to the party. Maybe a yahoo group would finally work...
In the Alaska bush I'd rather have a two hour bladder and three hours of gas than vice versa.
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:37 am

Yahoo! That would a nice sight, lol.
 
stlgph
Posts: 10998
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Sun Jan 02, 2005 7:08 am

"Mainline AA(no eagles please) is SMALLER in fleet then the summer of 2001.
I have that documented with fleet books over the years, TWFIRST."

Told ya! AA mainline fleet is currently smaller than it was before AA took over TWA.

Also, in response to Iowa Man's above list, keep in mind not all of those Trans States or Chatauqua flights are coming in on American colors. Several of those are coming in on United or US Airways colors.

Love to my fellow STL-ers!
;p
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
Air1727
Posts: 318
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:57 am

RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Sun Jan 02, 2005 7:12 am

So which one of you will start a STL yahoo group? I tried once, but there seems to be a lot more folks on here now...
In the Alaska bush I'd rather have a two hour bladder and three hours of gas than vice versa.
 
stlgph
Posts: 10998
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Sun Jan 02, 2005 7:25 am

Count me in. Email me with details.

[email protected]
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
atrude777
Posts: 4343
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Sun Jan 02, 2005 11:51 am

Hey all-

Id love to join the STL thing too. I am a STL flyer as well. I live in Southern Illinois about 2 hours from STL, so i sue STL very frequently. Let me kno my email is [email protected] so look for me there, i also have AIM atrude777 as well so ill be around!


in regards to the schedule, I have also heard AA must have a 200 departure status to keep with STL as well. and yes AA mainline is smaller then what it was before therefore WN has more mainline right? WN has 61 flights what does AA have?

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
STLUAL747
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 6:19 am

RE: Would AA Defend STL?

Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:44 pm

I'm in on the STL thing. My e-mail address is in my profile.

Josh
Lonely in Deserted St. Louis.

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