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PPVRA
Topic Author
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Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Fri Dec 24, 2004 3:50 am

Is it going to be the end for AA's polished metal belly? Or is there some sort of paint they could substitute? I hate to see those go...

They can always paint them gray... but it would loose that traditional look.

I guess some things have to go to give way to new technology advances...

PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Xkorpyoh
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:22 am

then... it is time for a livery change for AA when they introduce their first 7E7 !! (god knows when)
 
PSAelectra
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Fri Dec 24, 2004 8:46 pm

If AA could be assured a 20% operating cost improvement with the 7E7 over existing models, they'd paint them shocking pink with green wings.
 
dl757md
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:09 pm

Many composite panels have a thin aluminum coating flame sprayed on them for conduction/bonding purposes. I don't know whether the 7e7 will have this or if Boeing will accomplish this differently. If they do use flame spray and if it could be approved as an exterior finish maybe with a clear coat, then AA could retain their metal finish.

Dl757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
PPVRA
Topic Author
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Sat Dec 25, 2004 1:50 am

Interesting info Dl757Md, thank you very much. I hope they do keep their metalic finish!

Happy Holidays!

PPVRA


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Sat Dec 25, 2004 1:52 am

Or they could just take an NW-like approach with slightly more metallic in it. Also, the color scheme is several decades old, and even though I love it, it might be time to start looking at some alternative's anyway. I loved UA's battleship colors, but the new blue/white design is simply amazing!
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
MERSPACE
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Sat Dec 25, 2004 6:50 am

dl757md,

Do you know if the aluminum flame spray coating can protect the aircraft
from lightning ? Or is it too thin ?

MERSPACE
 
gigneil
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Sat Dec 25, 2004 6:52 am

They will have to go the flat grey paint approach again, if that's what they want to do.

The 7E7's fuselage will be a blackish color by default. Ick.

N
 
dl757md
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Sat Dec 25, 2004 11:11 am

Do you know if the aluminum flame spray coating can protect the aircraft
from lightning


That is one of the purposes of the flame spray.

Does anyone know what type of composite the 7e7 will be made out of? The reason I ask is that after thinking about it for a while I've only seen the flame spray technique used on fiberglass and kevlar panels. This is because the reinforcing material is not conductive. The carbon/graphite in carbon panels is conductive. Flame spray is therefore not needed.

Dl757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
aa777jr
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Sat Dec 25, 2004 11:13 am

look for a completely new livery change with AA in the next 18 months. just some information i was told by a pilot. also, AA is closer to making a 7E7 order than everyone thinks.  Smile
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Sat Dec 25, 2004 11:17 am

Does anyone know what type of composite the 7e7 will be made out of?

It will be a carbon fiber laminate. The plain color will be a wonderful grey-black, about as attractive as my 12 year-old, Camry LE.

http://www.speednews.com/7E7MAT/7E7.jpg

look for a completely new livery change with AA in the next 18 months. just some information i was told by a pilot. also, AA is closer to making a 7E7 order than everyone thinks

Man, that would make my Christmas  Big grin
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
AAplatnumflier
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Sat Dec 25, 2004 11:21 am

Yes I have hear that rumor too...the 7E7 in AA livery......will it be true who knows?? I hope it is though.....
 
OB1504
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Sat Dec 25, 2004 11:29 am

If AA was to obtain some 7E7s, would there be any chance of them painting the 7E7s like the A300s in the photos below?


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © JetPix
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frank Schaefer



I really liked those colors, and would love to see them on a new 7E7.  Smile
 
ckfred
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Sun Dec 26, 2004 3:43 pm

Aa777jr:

A friend of mine who is a pilot for AA has also heard the rumor of a 7E7 order, although the deliveries would be several years off, probably after 2010.

Management likes what they have seen with Boeing's presentations, and by 2010, AA will have a fair number of 757s and 767s that will be at least 20 years old.

AA wants to lock in delivery dates and is making the assumption that it will have the finances to pay for the planes in 6+ years.
 
JeffDCA
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:35 am

The engineers at AA managed to come up with a solution to making composite parts 'shine', by coating them with something (i forget what), then buffing as with aluminium. This is what they did with the A300 to make it a silver bird, rather than a grey bird. I'm guessing they'd do this with the 7E7 should they order it.

I can definately see AA ordering the 7E7 shortly, but i can't see them changing their livery any time soon, it's the AA icon, everyone knows it and recognises AA by it.

Cheers,

Jeff
If something hasn't broken on your helicopter, it's about to.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:43 am

The engineers at AA managed to come up with a solution to making composite parts 'shine', by coating them with something (i forget what), then buffing as with aluminium.

Hu'h...??? The composite structure on the American Airlines A300 has remained painted gray. The fuselage, which is aluminum was stripped of paint and polished. You can not 'polish' composite.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Paul Leach


As noted: the radome, the nose gear doors, wing to body fairing and much of the tail structure are composite and painted gray. The aluminum fuselage is polished.

[Edited 2004-12-26 21:52:06]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
A340600
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:50 am

Can you imagine if AA changed their livery how long it would take to paint the entire fleet!

Sam
Despite the name I am a Boeing man through and through!
 
JeffDCA
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:51 am

Hu'h...??? The composite structure on the American Airlines A300 has remained painted gray. The fuselage, which is aluminum was stripped of paint and polished. You can not 'polish' composite.

hmmm... well i heard what i said from an AA employee.

Cheers,

Jeff

[Edited 2004-12-26 21:51:49]
If something hasn't broken on your helicopter, it's about to.
 
cha747
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:53 am

I posted this exact same question a year ago:

https://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1317999

And to this date nobody has answered the final question I had in the thread.
Piedmontgirl was always right
 
JeffDCA
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:12 am

Cha747,
Try and get this magazine: http://www.airwaysmag.com/magazine/a107/. If i recall correctly it explains Alclad in the article "Paint or Polish?". I would quote it for you but i've left the magazine in my apartment in the US. Also explains what AA did to the A300 (as did that post you linked to) in order to polish it, contrary to what EMBQA says.

Cheers,

Jeff
If something hasn't broken on your helicopter, it's about to.
 
cha747
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:22 am

Thanks Jeff - What about my initial questions...any of you rampers out there know? Are de-icing procedures different?
Piedmontgirl was always right
 
EMBQA
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:28 am

Also explains what AA did to the A300 (as did that post you linked to) in order to polish it, contrary to what EMBQA says.

Again What.......??? Airbus, along with most European aircraft manufactures use a process called Bonded Primer. European aluminum manufactures do not use the Alcad process. Because of this, the stock aluminum does not have the corrosion preventive coating, and Bonded Primer is used in place of the Alclad. Bonded Primer is a chemical treatment applied to the sheet stock top skin and can not be removed. (just ask any Saab 340 operator about their AD) This is also why you see NO Airbus aircraft 'bare metal' polished other then AA. American Airlines Engineering Department and Airbus came up with an EO that allowed AA to remove the Bonded Primer and polish the aluminum skin. The remaining composite panels are painted gray.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
JeffDCA
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:38 am

EMBQA,
Just telling it like i heard from an AA employee and a reputable magazine. Feel free to dissagree with me  Wink/being sarcastic

Cheers,

Jeff
If something hasn't broken on your helicopter, it's about to.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:51 am

Jeff, You may want to reread your Airways......as condensed.....

" Airbus changed their policy and allowed AA to polish the Aluminum skin...the remaining composite material areas have to be painted"

That is almost word for word out of the article you mentioned. It goes much deeper and talks about Eastern facing the same problem as their fleet was polished and the A300 could not be. It added AA tried 3 different grays, none of which worked. Sorry, but the Airways article backs up what I said.

[Edited 2004-12-26 23:05:13]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
JeffDCA
Posts: 473
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Mon Dec 27, 2004 8:11 am

You learn something new everyday! Thanks for educating me EMBQA.  Smile

Cheers,

Jeff
If something hasn't broken on your helicopter, it's about to.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Mon Dec 27, 2004 8:25 am

Can you imagine if AA changed their livery how long it would take to paint the entire fleet!

About as long as for a carrier with a smaller number of planes. Maintenance intervals are the same no matter how many aircraft you have. Since repaints are typically done during heavy checks whether you change the livery or not... I'd guess 3-5 years.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
EMBQA
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Mon Dec 27, 2004 9:04 am

After reading on the Boeing web site about the 7e7 it mentioned a large majority of the aircraft primary structure will be composite, but I did not see any mention of the skin structure being composite. I could see Boeing using composite for frames, stringer, longerons and floor beams...but as the primary skin structure....??
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Mon Dec 27, 2004 1:06 pm

I could see Boeing using composite for frames, stringer, longerons and floor beams...but as the primary skin structure....??

Yup.... the skin will be made of carbon laminate. Click on this link for further information and a spiffy diagram-

http://www.speednews.com/7E7MAT/7E7.jpg

Hu'h...??? The composite structure on the American Airlines A300 has remained painted gray. The fuselage, which is aluminum was stripped of paint and polished. You can not 'polish' composite.

They could possibly go with a NW-type metallic paint finish. It isn't the exact same as polished metallic, but it sure as hell beats grey-


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © K.H. Ng



I would, however, like to see something like the Boeing World Colors that were flown on the 777-300ER prototype. It needs a little "Americanizing," as in- less wavey and more cream/off-white IMO


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dennis Chang

I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7858
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Mon Dec 27, 2004 1:28 pm

They could possibly go with a NW-type metallic paint finish.

I was told by some folks at NW the new color is actually 'Mother of Pearl White' which does offers a metalic silver look...and yes, that would work....if American even places an order.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
gigneil
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Mon Dec 27, 2004 1:40 pm

Does anyone know what type of composite the 7e7 will be made out of?

Tape.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

N
 
NYCAAer
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:07 am

I'd be surprised if AA changed its livery within the next 18 months. AA held focus groups with AAdvantage members and when a new livery was proposed to them, they were against it 100%. Plus, AA's current livery is very inexpensive to maintain- it's just a simple stripe on the fuselage, and the red "American" titles are decals. The times spent to paint the livery are kept to a minimum in Tulsa and Alliance Field in Ft. Worth.
 
ejmmsu
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RE: Composite Materials And AA's Livery

Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:05 pm

I think AA should make a little tweak to their Eagle livery, it looks really dated, and does not have the charm of the polished metal.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"

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