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UAL Bagsmasher
Topic Author
Posts: 1839
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 1999 12:52 pm

UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:52 am

Just on the news, UAL FA's overwhelmingly voted to approve CHAOS strikes if they don't settle by the second week in January. The yes vote was something like 88%.


http://abclocal.go.com/wls/news/123004_ns_united_chaos.html

[Edited 2004-12-30 23:54:37]
 
KabAir
Posts: 230
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:06 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:02 am

Well, here we go again. Fun for the whole family. Just gotta love unions. Anyway, I hearby predict that by this time tomorrow we'll have 50 posts saying that the UA FA's should be fired and/or get a McDonald's job, and 50 posts from pro-union folks stating that if FA's have to throw passengers out of moving aircraft to get managements attention, then by golly they have the right.

My thoughts. Happy New Year!
wow, there sure are a lot of expert economists on this forum....
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:04 am

More business for CO and NW . . . Good enough for me.

US and UA - monkey see, monkey do.

So sad. Two great airlines playing elementary games.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
KabAir
Posts: 230
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:06 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:05 am

Oh, and you can count me as Post One in the "they should get fired or have to work at McDonald's" column. I do feel for you folks at the airlines, but I swear UA and US employees are spending more time these days VOTING about strikes and concessions than actually WORKING  Smile Flame away....
wow, there sure are a lot of expert economists on this forum....
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:06 am

Post two, but I don't say fire them.

They'll have to get jobs at McDonald's when the airline goes out of business, anyway.

N
 
baw716
Posts: 1463
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:02 pm

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:18 am

Would someone please go out and explain to Patricia Friend that CHAOS will solve the problem, just not in the way that she wants.

The flight attendants won't have to worry about the issue of a contract. Why, because they won't BE any UAL flight attendants anymore. The company will cancel the contract and go to the f/a's and say: You want a job, come to work. If you don't, then don't bother coming to work. If you fail to show up for a flight that you are scheduled to work, then you will be considered terminated.

In the meantime, UAL will continue to train f/a's like mad to fill in the 10% or so of the real militant flight attendants who will be gone on day 1. How much will you bet Patricia Friend won't show up to work when it comes down to it? If she doesn't, good riddance. If she does, the f/a group will really see the the hypocrity behind the hype.

The f/a group needs someone that can bring them and the company together in order to find common ground--not to polarize the groups and take positions that will lead to their ultimate demise...unless of course, this is what Patricia Friend has in mind. The problem is this: The AFA has no leverage. There is not one other employee group who is going to step out on that ledge with the AFA. The AFA will be alone.

CHAOS works both ways: UAL will have reserves in place at hubs ready to take on flights 24/7 in case a f/a no shows a trip. They will also operate with FAA minimum f/a's on their aircraft. This will have an impact on service, but not on safety. When a f/a no shows, the reserve steps in and the f/a who was scheduled to work the trip is terminated. End of story.

After a while, one of two things will happen. Either the f/a union will cave to these employer tactics or CHAOS will just fail. Yes, there will be some disruptions in the beginning, but if the company plans effectively for the attack, has their resources in place and is merciless with insubordinate f/a's, then they have a chance to beat this ridiculous job action and move on with trying to get themselves back on the road to recovery. If this needless distraction causes them to miss their DIP target a third time, this is another story. If they do not have a viable exit plan by the spring and they are still losing money and more cash is required to keep UAL afloat, the DIP banks just may start saying no. That would be the catastrophy that will spell the end of United. Let's hope calmer heads prevail.
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
AZjetgeek
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2004 1:53 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:20 am

I have to take the FA's side on this issue. The bankruptcy courts have given UA ample time to emerge from Ch 11 protection. They've been excessively patient with UA's management. UA, like US, is putting its restructuring efforts on the backs of its employees. FA's do work hard and they do deserve better pay than what they currently receive. They put up with a lot of crap from drunk, ornery, and otherwise obnoxious passengers.

At what point do employees have a right to stand up to management? Some posters in here seem to think that the FA's should stop whining. Those of you who say they should leave UA if they don't like the wage and benefit cuts. If you're a senior FA with, let's say 10-15 years service, are you willing to throw that away to either start an entirely new career or switch to an airline that gives you little or no credit for experience in setting your wages? I don't think so!

I'm still waiting for UA's management team to introduce a restructuring plan that is actually fair and equitable. It's likely we'll all be waiting for that for a good while longer.

A final word on this subject. This is directed at all you "union bashers" out there. Try working in a "right to work" state such as Arizona. Our state employees are among the lowest paid in the U.S., especially those of us who work in the field of child welfare. We have a union, AFSCME, but they can't bargain collectively with the Legislature. Without that clout, we'll be forever at the mercy of politicans who have no clue what we do for children and families in our state.
Long live the RJ!
 
UnitedTristar
Posts: 863
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 6:45 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:23 am

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/041230/cgth036_1.html

"United also believes that both the Railway Labor Act and the Bankruptcy Code prevent the actions contemplated by the AFA."

-m

 Big thumbs up
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18279
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:25 am

Good! More passengers for us then. I don't know where I saw this but it definitely applies and cracks me up: "Full pay, 'til the last day; they're hiring at Chick Fil-A."
I don't take responsibility at all
 
AASTEW
Posts: 418
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 10:47 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:28 am

By the time concessions are over at US and UAL, the pay rates would look much like the McDonald's salary. At least at McDonald's you would get a meal while working.

For you outsiders of the industry how much do you think a pilot, mechanic, and flight attendants are worth? How low do the employees have to lower their wages, for the sake of low fares.

 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:28 am

"United also believes that both the Railway Labor Act and the Bankruptcy Code prevent the actions contemplated by the AFA."

All the more reason CHAOS participants should be terminated immediately, without recourse.

There's a lot of furloughed F/As standing by I'm sure, that would take a job at UA, contract or otherwise notwithstanding.



FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
KabAir
Posts: 230
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:06 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:30 am

AZjetgeek - you do make a good point about those who have been with the company for a long time and don't want to have to start a new career. And it's a fair concern. But I just don't think this is the way to go about fixing things. If the airline weren't bleeding red, it might be different. But you have to remember that there are still a lot of airline employees on furlough (this is relevent because it's a supply and demand thing - there are more FA's wanting to work than there are jobs, therefore you can pay less), that's just the nature of capitalism, like it or not.

I really do hope the best for UA employees and their families. But I also hope they'll take the other employees of their company into consideration, as well as (first and foremost) their customers.
wow, there sure are a lot of expert economists on this forum....
 
UALGSO
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:29 pm

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:37 am

Hate to see it, but being in CS, I would much rather see a full strike rather than C.H.A.O.S. Nothing like having your trip boarded up and the F/A's walk. At least an all out strike is easier to explain. Hopefully this does not come to fruition.
 
UALFAson
Posts: 1100
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:41 pm

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:43 am

Let's be clear here--the F/As are not voting to strike immediately. They are saying that IF the court allows the company to terminate collective bargaining agreements with the unions, then F/As are willing to consider (vote again on?) a strike action.

For now, this is just politicking, the F/As trying to show management that they mean business and they're mad as hell and not going to take it anymore.

I have to admit, when I first heard about this action, I thought it was the stupidest thing ever. But the more I've talked about it with my mom and other UA employees that I know, the more I feel for their predictament. If UA's new "business plan" goes through, my mom will, when taking inflation into account, make about the same or LESS than she did when she started more than 30 years ago in terms of pay, vacation, and other benefits.

UA has lots of great employees and I have had the pleasure of traveling around the world with them for 25 years. Most of those hard-working employees don't want to see UA go under. UA is their life. They work for UA because they love it and they work in this industry because they love it. But over the years they have gotten screwed time and time again by incompetent management who have done nothing but taken the money and run from the burning wreckage. But the rank-and-file are now in a position where they don't have a whole lot else left to lose. Yes, if UA liquidates, they're completely out of a job versus working for peanuts, but, emotionally, the two are now one and the same. When you consistently give a whole lot more than you get back, sometimes you reach a point where there just anything else left to give, no matter what the consequences.

All my best wishes to UA employees everywhere and the passengers who continue to fly them.
"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
 
ual777contrail
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2002 11:33 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:46 am

You people can laugh and make jokes about this topic all you want, but airline F/A's beware, when it happens to UAL it will happen to you. UAL will dump pensions, it will cut pay, and coming to an airline near you, wages to match. You F/A's out there better be worried, when UAL cuts pensions, and lowers it's CASM under yours, you to will see a pay cut, and loss of pension.

The F/A's and their union are ignorant yes, but they wont strike, or cause chaos. When one flight attendant does, they will set an example of them, with no contract, and disrupting a flight to perform your deed will end your career in aviation SO fast.


UAL 777 CONTRAIL
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
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RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:46 am

if usair (finally) shuts down, hopefully the ual f/a's will see what damage their behavior will cause. while i don't think things are as dire at ual as usair, the loss of consumer confidence will ultimately kill the company.

european "sophostication" allows for such ridicilous behavior. the american public won't put up with it.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
drewwright
Posts: 530
Joined: Tue May 15, 2001 3:51 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:49 am

Wow...some of you guys need to walk a mile in our xray-friendly shoes before you start throwing stones. How would you like it if your company suddenly decided to cut your wages, throw out your pensions, cut insurance benefits, etc.? I don't think you would like it one bit and I think you would have a good mind to quit. Then suppose your company, after doing all this, asked you to work for free this weekend to help them out? One can only take so much and I'm afraid most employees at US and UA are ready to help them right into liquidation.
The employees are better off somewhere they are respected and I think the industry as a whole may be better off without US and UA.
 
StowAway
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Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:48 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:54 am

UAL's FA's are being very irresponsible with other hard working people's jobs.

If United would just wait for US Airways' FA's to kill their own company, they will see a brighter future. Following them isn't the route to go!
A monkey's ass always talks crap.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8886
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:22 am

We can all be optimistic that UA may soon have non-union FAs, like DL. Service will improve, it will be easier for UA to get exit financing, job security for the good employees will go way up. Everyone wins except the slackers and the union bosses.
 
KabAir
Posts: 230
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:06 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:37 am

Ya know, I've been thinking about this whole thing some more and it seems really odd to me that FA's who have been with UA or US for a long period of time would want to strike. Earlier it was discussed that those FA's who have been with their companies for a long time don't want to lose a career and have to start all over - which was the logic used for why they don't quit, but instead strike to make their point. But upon further reflection, this logic seems faulty to me. Dispite varied opinions on this site about whether striking in OK or not, very few people seem to disagree that FA (and other) strikes will only serve to hurt and possibly kill a bankrupt airline. So, if a US or UA FA doesn't want to have to start a new career after many years with their airline - wouldn't it be logical that they would be AGAINST striking and by doing so possibly and likely killing their employer? I would think their attitudes would be more along the lines of "man this sucks, but if I ride this out for 5 or 10 years, maybe my company will return to profitibility and I'll get back my pay from the glory days of the 90's." Because remember, these wage concessions aren't permanent.

So to restate the main point of my wordy post --- pro-union and FA people on this forum seem to argue that FA's shouldn't just quit if they dislike the job because they've been at the airline for a long time and it would suck to have to start a new career. So shouldn't you be arguing that ANYTHING ELSE that would force you into a new career (ie, striking and killing your airline) would be a bad idea also?

I guess I just don't understand. But these are just my opinions, I hope no one takes any offense at my thoughts, and if you disagree with me that's fine. Let's have a nice conversation about our ideas and maybe we'll all end up understanding one another better. Let the lovefest begin  Smile
wow, there sure are a lot of expert economists on this forum....
 
a300aa
Posts: 298
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:12 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:45 am

Yes, the company without unions, will exit bankruptcy , and employees will be paid $2 an hour.
That's good for everybody, except for employees.
And then all other airlines will have to math their salaries, good for who? For nobody in the airline industry.
From all your coworkers we send to UAL employees, our best wishes and support. Don't give anything.
 
KabAir
Posts: 230
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:06 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:50 am

"Yes, the company without unions, will exit bankruptcy , and employees will be paid $2 an hour. That's good for everybody, except for employees."

An emotional, but not a logical thesis. First, $2 would be illegal. Second, FA's would have much more bargaining power with an airline that actually had money. Third, prior to the airlines being bankrupt, many unions were able to significantly bump up worker salaries (see the 1990s).

That's the problem I see with all of this. Much emotion. No logic. Spock out.
wow, there sure are a lot of expert economists on this forum....
 
VEEREF
Posts: 560
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:55 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:58 am

Is McDonald's even hiring right now?
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
ual777contrail
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2002 11:33 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:06 am

~~~~~~~The employees are better off somewhere they are respected and I think the industry as a whole may be better off without US and UA.

There isn't a company today that truly cares for their employees. You might be thinking WN does, naw, they just have their employees believing this. It is a great way to motivate employees, and like puppets to a string we all dance off to work.

UAL F/A's will see the light. Anybody can vote yes for CHAOS, but I guarantee not everybody will play along. They are trying to call their bluff, it wont work and they will still work and complain.

Remember they tried chaos briefly in early 2000 something once the CS folks got raises and retro pay. They cried we want a new contract, but UAL said you signed a 10 year deal, now deal with it. They (ual) announced any F/A's causing problems will be dealt with, and gues what? no chaos.


UAL 777 CONTRAIL
 
mojo89
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:11 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:11 am

Wow...some of you guys need to walk a mile in our xray-friendly shoes before you start throwing stones. How would you like it if your company suddenly decided to cut your wages, throw out your pensions, cut insurance benefits, etc.?

Drewwright-
You're right. I wouldn't like it one bit and I feel for you, but as I have said before this is Economics 101. The market is deciding what all of our jobs are worth. It is an individual decision to decide whether or not it is economically viable to stay in a job once it's value has been determined. This sucks, but it's just the way it is. The market and the customers do not care how long you have been at a job or what you are making. They will decide whether or not there is a need for the job, you have to decide if the job is for you once everything shakes out.
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. -Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2941
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:04 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:19 am

UAL FA's overwhelmingly voted to approve CHAOS strikes if they don't settle by the second week in January.

Which IMHO renders the CHAOS vote irrelevant, inasmuch as UAL's FAs have demonstrated to me (as well as UAL management) that they will readily acquiesce to draconian concessions -- if it means saving their beloved jobs (or at least supposedly so). Which makes it all but certain that they allow themselves to be fleeced once again (oooops, I meant to say they will settle) by the second week of January, which nullifies the condition required for a CHAOS action to take place. After which they can hold another rally at the White House to blame Dubya for their choice to vote yes.
 
baw716
Posts: 1463
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:02 pm

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:29 am

You know, I still just don't get it.

I do not begrudge any flight attendants. They work hard and do have to put up with a lot of crap from passengers, there is no argument there.

But this is not an argument about being patient about a settlement. This is not about what they 'deserve'. This is about if, IF, they will have a JOB. It is that simple. To anyone who thinks that it is anything more complex than this, you are diluting yourselves.

Yes, there are very complex issues at United to be resolved and yes, United is dragging its feet about a exit plan from bankruptcy. There are true problems at United yet to be resolved and I am certainly exceptionally critical of UA management and their role in this whole calamity.

However, this is not about UA management. This is about the actions of a few f/a's who think that they are going to get screwed by UA because they are close to retirement and further believe that they have the power to leverage the carrier into giving them what they want. Specifically, Patricia Friend and her ageing group of f/a's (mind you, I do not begrudge them what they want and have earned, but the problem is, they are not going to get it. UA is not in a position to give it.) If they file a creditor claim, they are so far down the list that it will be 20 years and maybe 1 cent on the dollar they will receive, maybe.

This CHAOS action is NOT, repeat NOT the way to do this. The way to get to management is to work with them, not against them, which, by the way, the AFA has done for the past 10 years. They did not participate in the ESOP. They forced UA into giving them a 30% pay raise, albeit over 10 years with a sizeable bump at the front end. United needs to get that back.

All the other unions have been working with management in one way or another. It is the AFA that has been dragging their feet and now is hell bent on going to war with UA management. This is a war they cannot win.
If I thought that this was the right move on the part of the AFA, I would support it with all my power...because I believe employees are at the heart of any company, especially one in bankruptcy and that is the time when everyone, and I mean everyone needs to come together and figure out a way to get out of the whole. That means equal sacrifice across all the work groups.

So, my argument is simple. This is a very bad idea. If you go through with it, then I will have to come down on the side of management and if you no show for a flight, you should be terminated on the spot...with NO rights to recall. After about 10% of the f/a group are gone (the most hard headed), the rest will cave, since at the end of the day, they will figure out that it is their job that they must save, not the careers of a few of the older union group (which is what this is really about).

To the older f/a group, I am very sorry. You deserve better. A lot of us deserve better. I lost my ESOP shares and my pension as a former UA employee. I have gone on with my life. You need to start figuring out what to do with the rest of your lives, because this is going to end badly for you, one way or the other. If you continue to work for United, you will earn less money, but you will still be employed. There are things you will be able to do to prepare for retirement. You need to start looking forward and not backward. Pick up the pieces and work with management and you might find them more receptive than you may think. A f/a group that actually works with management than against them will be rewarded in the end. I truly believe that. It may not be today, but if United is healthy again, there may be profit sharing and to those who are really close to retirement, I am certain that UA will help you in some way to figure out how to manage yourself through the next coming years.

Do not let emotion rule your actions. It will be your undoing.

Do this another way.
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2941
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:04 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:33 am

AZjetgeek writes: They've been excessively patient with UA's management. UA, like US, is putting its restructuring efforts on the backs of its employees.

Yes indeed. What the restructuring attempts of UA and US have come to be in reality are attempts to reinvent themselves as high cost, low wage carriers -- an extremely unlikely formula for success IMHO.
 
KabAir
Posts: 230
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:06 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:35 am

Great post, Baw716. I think you hit the nail right on the head.
wow, there sure are a lot of expert economists on this forum....
 
VEEREF
Posts: 560
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:55 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:43 am

For all out there who are comparing an F/A's job to one at McDonald's or Chik-Fil-A:

Next time you're on a flight somewhere and can't get a soda refill right away, or encounter a flight attendant that's been on duty for 14 hours in the same holding pattern or queue on the taxiway for hours just like you and may not have his or her happy face on at the moment, stop for a second and just be GLAD that they don't have to do what they're ACTUALLY there for.
In case some have forgotten it's to save your ass in an emergency. Guess what? if airlines decide to do away with all IFE, beverages, snacks etc, those folks will STILL BE THERE. Next time you're on an airplane, take a good look around you during the safety briefing or video, and count the number of folks who are actually paying attention besides yourself. In many cases you will find yourself alone in that group.
Now just imagine what most of those people are going to be doing once that aircraft plows into a pasture at 150mph and bursts into flames. It's now up to those 2 or 3 F/A's folks to direct those panicked people to a few emegency exits since they weren't paying attention at the beginning.
Now being the enthusiasts that we are, we were paying attention and know exactly where our exit is. Only problem is at the moment the aisles are clogged with people trying to retrieve their $#%@^%% carryons on the way out! They're paid to be the last ones out the door.
I may seem like I'm exaggerating, but I have been in a situation as a pax where some smoke in the rear of the aircraft during boarding necessitated an evacuation and I couldn't get out quickly because of that reason.

To me, that sounds just a little more involved than serving Happy Meals and making change.

Just remember their badges say "Flightcrew" and they are now certificated as such.
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8886
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:36 pm

Veeref, I believe that a majority of UA FAs would be more help than hinderance in the event of an evacuation -- even on an international flight. However, the minority of great-grandmothers who would just be in the way has reached a level that makes it very difficult to take seriously the idea that FAs are primarily onboard for our safety. If FAs were onboard primarily for our safety, recurrent would be a lot tougher. As long as FAs who are geriatric, obese, and senile are passing recurrent, the story that FAs are onboard primarily for our safety will be harder to believe in than the Tooth Fairy.
 
bistro1200
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2003 7:13 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:50 pm

I have to admit, when I first heard about this action, I thought it was the stupidest thing ever. But the more I've talked about it with my mom and other UA employees that I know, the more I feel for their predictament. If UA's new "business plan" goes through, my mom will, when taking inflation into account, make about the same or LESS than she did when she started more than 30 years ago in terms of pay, vacation, and other benefits.
---
That's because prior to 1978, when a union got a new contract, the airline sought, and was routinely approved for a fare increase by the CAB. This fare increase was for ALL carriers on the route. Now, the carriers don't have that ability to raise fares to cover their costs. In fact, unit costs are going up with fuel costs, even though wages are going down. Adding to that is a surplus in ASMs and the stage is set for failure.

Wages simply have to come down. It's my second pay cut in 3 years where I am, and I may choose to leave if things get too much worse. But, it's still better than my other options right now. The market simply can't afford to pay us the wages we were used to making.

Business plans are not the places to look to find employee friendly provisions. Either you do the job at the price they pay, or you work somewhere else. Some of the very big problems with UA are many employees' opinion that they are OWED something. They have a huge chip on their shoulder that they are not getting a fair share. Such mentalities are destructive to any company that harbors them. Meanwhile they seem to forget the MASSIVE double-digit pay increases when times were good (prior to 2000).

Bottom line: the market sets pay rates, not management. It would also be irresponsible of management to pay above market rates for services under Ch 11. So, AFA, if you walk, the company folds, and there's no one left to owe you? What then?
Measure to the millimeter, mark with a crayon, cut with an axe.
 
PVG
Posts: 466
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 7:39 pm

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:09 pm

Do not let emotion rule your actions. It will be your undoing.

I couldn't have said it better myself! Please don't go on strike and cause a mess like we saw last week on US AIR. US AIR is now officially finished IMO. Who in their right mind would get on one of their flights if there are any other reasonably priced and safe options?

I hope that ELK GROVE/VP FINANCE is listening/reading: Why can't UA work out some kind of buyout deal with the older FA's who need more cash now? There must be a creative way to to do this. Maybe a zillion stock options in the new post chap. 11 UA? Free C class flights for life systemwide basis for employee and spouse that they can sell for cash at the rate of say 1 or 2 per year during non-peak seasons? It's really not fair telling someone who's 50 and up that they're not getting what's been promised to them these past 20 or so years. There must be a way to solve this issue amicably.

By the way, are the FA's aware that the government will guarantee a substantially portion of their benefits?

Anyway, I hope that this can be worked out. Good luck to all involved.
 
B777fan
Posts: 135
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:44 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:57 pm

I really don't get it.

If the FA's actually go through with this, it will end the airline. What about the cabin speech acknowledging 'we realize you have a choice in carriers, thank you for flying United'.

I do have a choice, and you won't get another chance to thank me once I leave.

If you don't like the economics of the airline industry anymore because you will earn less, leave it and get a job elsewhere. There are not really any other options.
 
FA4UA
Posts: 777
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 6:26 pm

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:32 pm

Are we shooting ourselves in the foot or are we making our voices heard? The jury is still out.

All I know is from my odd and conflicted perspective (a United Flight Attendant with a degree in Corporate Finance), I see both sides of the coin fairly clear. At the end of the day, my collegues are sick of giving concessions away just to watch management piss it away on stupid mistakes. The latest was calling for critical coverage for this week all while 3,000 flight attendants sat at home on voluntary furlough. I can list dozens more, but will spare you.

I love my company and there is no doubt that United is going to turn around and be the global player and full service airline that we've been over the past 76+ years. Chapter 11 is just a really difficult transitional period and hopefully it will end quickly!

Passing this strike vote does not mean an immediate strike.

my two cents... I'm off to KIX in the morning....
FA4UA

(Critical Coverage is when the operation runs out of staffing and instates mandatory overtime and forces Flight Attendants to fly on thier days off.)
The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
 
777ER
Head Moderator
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RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:46 pm

How would you like it if your company suddenly decided to cut your wages, throw out your pensions, cut insurance benefits, etc.? If it means the business surviving which means that I would still have a job after, then I would not be complaining
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ilikeyyc
Posts: 1326
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RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:21 pm

Well, since I don't work at UA or in the industry per se, my opinion doesn't count. I will say thought that I do see both sides of the argument, but I don't know all of the details.

Because of this, I do have a question. Has the management at UA, or any airline, taken cuts in benefits and pay along with the employees, or are they being greedy and keeping the cash for themselves?
Fighting Absurdity with Absurdity!
 
ANNOYEDFA
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:16 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:06 pm

BAW716: When CHAOS is in effect no on is terminated for participating.... Ask any Alaska FAS......... OR ME!

To the rest of you I am aware of my Union and contractual rights and will do as my union sees fit.... I think if CO FAS take a concession they are D U M B! We are one of the largest work groups and need to make a stand if it means shutting down an airline SO BE IT! WE STILL HAVE A SAY OR BETTER YET EVERYONE AND OLD: Guangzhou - Baiyun (CAN / ZGGG) (closed), China">CAN JUST WAlK THE HELL OFF THEN SEE WHAT HAPPENS..... FIND A COUPLE THOUSAND FAS AND TRAIN THEM IN A MATTER OF DAYS! GOOD LUCK! I am all for Patricia Friend and I am SO glad finally a FA is running the show! None of you know what FAS are going through and I could careless what you have to say about us from here on out..........

Once again WE don't need McDonalds! Maybe the people who suggest it need to work there! We can all set new careers after the job is D O N E! Acting devilish  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
Bicoastal
Posts: 2446
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 5:56 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:43 pm

Ilikeyyc.....All UA management, including Tilton, have already taken the same pay and benefit cuts that are currently being negotiated with the unions. That happened earlier in December.

CHAOS is my mind is a waste of time. The flying public could care less about the employees' plight. They'll continue to scour the Internet looking for ever cheaper fares. I don't blame them. They've got their own financial pressures. CHAOS will simply drive passengers away to other carriers.

I'm Pro Choice.........the employees have a choice to stay or leave. And for those with many years with the company, I'm not sympathetic. Yours isn't the first industry that has gone through severe changes. Change is sometimes tough, but you'll survive.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
mojo89
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:11 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:28 pm

Bicoastal-
Well said!

Annoyedfa-
Take a pill or something. I'm still trying to fully figure out what your post meant. Judging by your age group, you don't have near as much at stake as many senior CO FAs, so calling them DUMB is uncalled for.
BTW-can you Supersize that #3 for me? (Just kidding)  Smile
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. -Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
 
PVG
Posts: 466
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 7:39 pm

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:33 pm

FA4UA: I understand your point about the 3000 FA's at home. But, maybe if your degree was in management instead of finance you might understand that it's not logical nor cost effective long-term to hire additional staff for short-term needs. It's a lot cheaper to pay some overtime now than to have to re-integrate staff and to get rid of them later when the staffing needs are not as great. So, the management is not wasting money nor making a poor decision in this case, they are actually being quite prudent.

Good luck to you.
 
ATWZW170
Posts: 755
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 4:18 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:40 pm

annoyedfa,
You sound like an old Eastern mechanic. A number of us do know what you are going through having been or are currently flight attendants. Your lack of concern for your fellow coworkers is disgusting, as is your attitude by the way. It's fine to be upset with management and think that they are taking everything away from you...poor you. Lets see, how many people have lost their jobs in the past three years and would love to be in your shoes? Go ahead and start CHAOS. UA will see to it that they stay afloat. They will operate transcon and international flights where as Express will operate most domestic flights with larger 70-90 seat aircraft. UA is way too big to go under and I HIGHLY doubt that it will come to that. It's bitter, uneducated, and illogical people such as yourself who are ruining a good company. United has a proud history, it's time to remember that history, stand up as a company, and go forward. Times are hard but they will get better. UA gave to you in the good times, now give to them in the bad times...it will come back to you.

And by the way, next time you post something, read it first and make sure it makes sense.
Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
 
Boeing Nut
Posts: 5078
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 2:42 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:53 pm

That's right flight attendants! Stirke! You'll show 'em! Flights cancelled, more revenue lost, company goes deeper into debt, company will file chapter thirteen, airline shuts down! Yeah!! We showed them!! Woo hoo! .....

Umm, ........ wait a minute...............
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10221
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:56 pm

The FAs are there for our safety, LOL. That was a good joke.
I can't remember the last time I met an FA to which I would trust my safety to, especially the more senior ones. Most of them appear to me as nimble as a dead cat. And has it ever occured to you that the reason no one is paying any attention to the safety demonstration is because a) they've seen it a million times; and b) does anyone really have a chance to survive a water "landing"?  Smile
 
ATWZW170
Posts: 755
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 4:18 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Sat Jan 01, 2005 12:08 am

Even though I'm not siding with the F/A's at UA if they go through with CHAOS, I will stick up for them when it comes to the safety issues. It's not just evacuation, it's also medical. They do have training on how to use the AED's and first aid training. And during an evacutaion, I'd rather have the seasoned older flight attendants then some of these newbe's who can't keep their cool.
Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
 
JetMechMD80
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:27 pm

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Sat Jan 01, 2005 12:16 am

There isn't a company today that truly cares for their employees. You might be thinking WN does, naw, they just have their employees believing this. It is a great way to motivate employees, and like puppets to a string we all dance off to work.

UAL777Contrail,

that's a pretty bold statement. I suppose it all depends on what your definition of the word "care" is. If your definition of the word "caring" means that the company simply gives in to any demand you make, I would say you are right. If your definition of caring is that a company does the best it can, within its means to provide for the welfare of its employees, I would say you are way off the mark with your statement. True story here, and if any of our fellow A-netters, were N7 employees, they can verify this. We had "unlimited" sick time at N7. Full pay, for as many days that you called in sick. Some people abused it. Calling in sick every other Monday, and so on. There was a young lady who was coming to a interview, she was interviewing for a F/A job. On the way to the interview, she was involved in a car accident. She was badly hurt. When the company found out what happened to her they hired her, sight unseen, and put her on the payroll. She was out of work over a year, collecting full pay. When she was able to come to work, she could not be a F/A, so they found her a job at corporate. Does that sound like a company that does not care?



BAW716: When CHAOS is in effect no on is terminated for participating.... Ask any Alaska FAS......... OR ME!

To the rest of you I am aware of my Union and contractual rights and will do as my union sees fit.... I think if CO FAS take a concession they are D U M B! We are one of the largest work groups and need to make a stand if it means shutting down an airline SO BE IT! WE STILL HAVE A SAY OR BETTER YET EVERYONE AND OLD: Guangzhou - Baiyun (CAN / ZGGG) (closed), China">CAN JUST WAlK THE HELL OFF THEN SEE WHAT HAPPENS..... FIND A COUPLE THOUSAND FAS AND TRAIN THEM IN A MATTER OF DAYS! GOOD LUCK! I am all for Patricia Friend and I am SO glad finally a FA is running the show! None of you know what FAS are going through and I could careless what you have to say about us from here on out..........

Once again WE don't need McDonalds! Maybe the people who suggest it need to work there! We can all set new careers after the job is D O N E!



Annoyedfa:

congratulations, another totally incoherent post!

Does anyone understand what this person is trying to say? And he has the nerve to say he is not paid enough.



"I get along great with nobody"~ Billy Idol
 
andersjt
Posts: 367
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:50 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Sat Jan 01, 2005 12:34 am

Yes, clap, clap, great job for the union leaders and United management, letting news like this get out now.

Don't get me wrong, flight attendants are already underpaid (LCC and Legacy), but this kind of acrimony getting out to the public just makes it worse for ALL involved. I would be curious to see how union management presented this when asking for votes.
Oh how I long for the day when the skies were truly Friendly!
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 6006
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Sat Jan 01, 2005 12:43 am

They voted for Chaos?



Screw the unions.
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
zvezda
Posts: 8886
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:08 am

Not only does Annoyedfa's post lack spelling, grammar, and a thesis, but it demonstrates an ignorance of history, logic, and ethics.
 
KabAir
Posts: 230
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:06 am

RE: UA FA's Vote For Chaos

Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:52 am

Ah, this is nice. It seems we all finally agree on something which is: Annoyedfa's postings are way out there. After that last post I wondered if a deranged monkey was just typing randomly at the keys.  Smile

Annoyedfa - Don't worry, I don't really think you have the intelligence of a deranged monkey, I'm sure you're a very intelligent person, but here's the point - when you are so angry, so disillusioned, so put-out with your job that you post the things you do, it is probably time to move on - for the good of the people you serve and more than anything for yourself! It can't be healthy! Truth is, there's no way you can be this angry and not have it spill over to your work life. And it is important that when you're working as an FA, as in any service (and safety) industry that you treat people with respect and kindness. Not just for your companies sake, but because your fellow human beings deserve to be treated kindly. Also, if you treat them like crap because you have such a chip on your shoulder, how do you expect them to respect you? And if they don't respect you, why on earth do you think they would listen to you or follow you in an emergency? So what I'm saying is, I wish you all the best in life - I truly do - but my friend, I think it's time for you to find a new line of work. Your customers will thank you, and you'll probably thank yourself. Seriously. You seem to be working yourself up to an early heart attack or something.

Folks, if you hate your company, don't stay! If you love your job as an FA and don't want to lose it, don't do anything that would put you in a position to lose it, such as striking and killing your airline! I know times are hard, let's hope they get better for all of you soon! In the mean time, don't do anything rash like CHAOS. I can almost guarentee you'll regret it a few years down the road when you realize what you might have lost long term. Thanks for listening, hope it doesn't seem like a deranged monkey got ahold of my computer.  Smile
wow, there sure are a lot of expert economists on this forum....

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