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KLM And Airbus

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:07 am
by junior1970
Happy new year  Big thumbs up

I've got a couple of questions regarding KLM's 'relationship' with Airbus.

In the 80's KLM had 10 A310's in their fleet. KLM got rid of them asap, because they weren't profitable or didn't really fit into the fleet at that time. Can anyone clear up, what happened ?

Why does KLM get the A330 to replace the B763? Because of the bigger cargo capacity ? Please clarify as well.

Any thought is appreciated...


RE: KLM And Airbus

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:27 am
by SXMbyKLM747
I expect that they decided to switch to A330 go gain scale economies that can be reached by pooling maintenance resources with Air-France.
/robbert

RE: KLM And Airbus

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:35 am
by petertenthije
The A310s no longer fitted the routes. KLM decided to adopt more frequency on European routes. This made the large capacity A310s too large. The A310 version KLM had, did not have a lot of range though so transatlantic flights could not be done with a full load.

That's why the 767s with their longer range came in. Even those where not completely to KLMs satisfaction though since the cargo hold is smaller. KLM carries a lot of freight.

Now the leases of the 767s are about to expire so KLM had two option. Extend the leases or get a new fleet. The newer A330s have both the long range KLM requires, and the larger cargo bay. So this plane now suits KLMs needs best.

As for pooling resources with AF. The order for Airbusses was placed well before the alliance/take-over was agreed upon. When the planes where ordered KLM was also still talking with BA. Also, the Airbusses are different from those of AF. Mostly in the cabin and galleys.

RE: KLM And Airbus

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:48 pm
by junior1970
What was the difference between the A310-200 that KLM flew and the A310-200 series that for instance Delta used to fly to cross the atlantic JFK-AMS v.v. ?


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Did Delta not fly with a full load ?

RE: KLM And Airbus

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:17 pm
by AA B777-200
Good question Junior! Because I think that Delta (former PanAm A310s) operated both the -200 and -300 version of the A310. I know the -300 was able to do long haul with higher loads.

RE: KLM And Airbus

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:43 pm
by Capital146
I don't think KLM were too unhappy with the A310's as they remained in the fleet for over 10 years, so perhaps it a bit unfair to say "they got rid of them asap".

The range of the -200 was perhaps the biggest downfall for the KLM examples. They could be used on high-density routes such as AMS-LHR as well as routes to the Middle East where the cargo capacity was really useful.

Perhaps if the -300 had been operated instead then they may have been kept for longer as they would have been useful on a number of routes where the -200 lacks the range. However, as KLM was one of the first carriers for the A310, the -300 was still a number of years away.

RE: KLM And Airbus

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:59 am
by LifelinerOne
What was the difference between the A310-200 that KLM flew and the A310-200 series that for instance Delta used to fly to cross the atlantic JFK-AMS v.v. ?

Well, the A310-200's of Delta didn't flew AMS-JFK or JFK-AMS... The plane in question was based at FRA if I recall correctly. They replaced the B727's of Delta in Europe, which replaced the Pan Am jets in Europe. Don't know the planes flew AMS-FRA on a regular basis.

Shoot me if I'm wrong!

Cheers!

RE: KLM And Airbus

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:23 am
by gigneil
I think the -200s were pretty limited to flights around Europe that were purchased from Pan Am.

The -300s (both from Pan Am and new-build ones for DL) crossed the pond pretty regularly.

N

RE: KLM And Airbus

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 3:59 am
by FoxBravo
Delta did fly the -200s across the Atlantic, especially on shorter routes like JFK-LIS, but got rid of them rather quickly (basically, as soon as they could replace them with the new-build -300s, as I recall) because (a) their capacity was no longer needed on the intra-European routes and (b) their lack of range frequently required unscheduled fuel stops when flying westbound across the Atlantic, especially in winter.

Delta also used the -200s on some domestic U.S. routes, mainly (if not exclusively) on ex-Pan Am routes feeding the JFK gateway. In particular, I seem to recall that Delta operated JFK-PDX with the A310-200 before switching over to the 757. Apparently they flew to LAX as well:

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But I digress. To get back to the original question, there was no significant difference between the A310-200s of KLM and Delta, and that's sort of the whole problem. They were all intended for shorter routes and lacked the range to be of any use on intercontinental flights, which is why both KLM and Delta decided (independently, of course) to standardize on the exact same type: the 767-300ER. It just happened to be the right plane at the right time.

[Edited 2005-01-03 20:02:40]

RE: KLM And Airbus

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:37 am
by FCKC
KLM operated the A310 on the SPL-CDG route , mainly for cargo.Always full of freight both ways.
If the 300 version had been launched earlier , surely KLM wouldn't have operated 767s.

RE: KLM And Airbus

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:31 am
by FoxBravo
If the 300 version had been launched earlier, surely KLM wouldn't have operated 767s.

I'm not so sure about that...KLM's first 767 wasn't delivered until 1995. The A310-300 had entered service 9 years earlier, in 1986! I don't know when exactly KLM decided to lease 767s, but surely the A310-300 was already available at the time.

RE: KLM And Airbus

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:59 am
by BAtripleseven
I don't think KLM were too unhappy with the A310's as they remained in the fleet for over 10 years, so perhaps it a bit unfair to say "they got rid of them asap".

i agree

RE: KLM And Airbus

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:39 am
by junior1970
Did KLM buy or lease the A310's ?

Where are they flying now? Some of them have been converted to freighters for FedEx, that's all I know.

RE: KLM And Airbus

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:48 am
by FoxBravo
I don't know if KLM owned or leased them, but I believe they are all with FedEx now.

RE: KLM And Airbus

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:57 am
by LJ
KLM operated the A310 on the SPL-CDG route , mainly for cargo.Always full of freight both ways.
If the 300 version had been launched earlier , surely KLM wouldn't have operated 767s.


This is incorrect. The A310-300 was deemed to small to fit KLM operations once they had to decide between the A310-300 and B767-300ER. ILFC offered both the B767-300ER and A310-300 to KLM. Furthermore, the performance of the B767-300ER fitted KLM's strategy much better than the A310-300 as clearly shown by the fact that KLM even decided to switch to an aircraft designed for LD2 containers.

In fact, probably one of the main reasons KLM opted for the A310-200 was the fact that Airbus could deliver the aircraft at a time KLM requested. It's well documented that one of the main advantages of the A310 was the fast delivery schedule Airbus could offer (in addition to the LD3 container). Boeing couldn't offer KLM a suitable slot for the B767-200ER and thus the order went to Airbus as they offered a similar product with a better schedule.

I don't think KLM were too unhappy with the A310's as they remained in the fleet for over 10 years, so perhaps it a bit unfair to say "they got rid of them asap".

KLM was very happy with the A310. However as KLMs strategy changed so did the use of the A310 in KLM's network. In the end the A310 didn't fit in the strategy and was replaced by a temporarly choice (B767).