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scotron11
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UAL Creditors Oppose Deal W/Pilots

Wed Jan 05, 2005 2:18 pm

In a bitter split, UALs' creditors, along with some banks and unions, have joined the federal government in opposing a deal in which United would terminate its pilots' pension plan and offer the pilots equity in the airline and other sweeteners in exchange.

In a brief filed with the bankruptcy court, lawyers for the creditors' committee said the deal with the pilots could make it more difficult for United to attract the $2 billion to $2.5 billion in financing that it needs to leave bankruptcy protection, since it would give equity to the pilots.(NY Times)

What do we do now, Tonto???
 
mm320cap
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RE: UAL Creditors Oppose Deal W/Pilots

Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:04 pm

Scotron11,

Hold on very tight! It's going to be an interesting couple of months. If my career wasn't on the line, I'd be downright fascinated by this.

One thing that does make me laugh. Everyone is talking about what a "sweetheart deal" this is for us pilots. Industry bottom pay and working conditions with the loss of 85% of my pension. It's hard to feel like I'm getting a sweetheart deal when I'm bent over like this....
 
scotron11
Topic Author
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RE: UAL Creditors Oppose Deal W/Pilots

Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:22 pm

Mm320cap

Wholeheartedly agree with you..hope all comes to a conclusion soon and UAL and their employees get out of this thing and puts it all behind them. Only folk making money at the moment are airport operators and bankruptcy lawyers!
 
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flashmeister
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RE: UAL Creditors Oppose Deal W/Pilots

Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:49 pm

Airport operators? If I'm not mistaken, DEN got screwed royally by UA in bankruptcy and had to wave off a bunch of landing fees. Exactly how are airport operators making inappropraite bucks off of UA?
 
scotron11
Topic Author
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RE: UAL Creditors Oppose Deal W/Pilots

Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:20 pm

Flashmeister

In general, airports are doing quite well, at least on this side of the pond. And I don't hear of a lot of airports entering bankruptcy or pleading poverty. That said, in this present climate, the only players spilling "red ink" are the carriers from which an airport derives its income. If DEN is getting inordinately "screwed" by UAL, I cannot comment.
 
N79969
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RE: UAL Creditors Oppose Deal W/Pilots

Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:42 pm

Mm320Cap,

Isn't it all relative though? Compared to other United employees, you guys are sitting high on the hog with the deal ALPA struck with management.

In any case, good luck to you.
 
ual777contrail
Posts: 2914
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RE: UAL Creditors Oppose Deal W/Pilots

Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:45 am

N79969,
You took the words right out of my mouth.

Mm320cap,
You guys have always been about me,me,me, it has never been a team. I don't think you will get many within the company who feel bad for you. You might however get some on this board, they think you guys are god. You pilots need to remember there is no I or pilot in team.

UAL 777 CONTRAIL
 
RHSNYC
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RE: UAL Creditors Oppose Deal W/Pilots

Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:18 am

It's my understanding that "Goodwin" conceded to, what some say was, the pilot's excessive pay demands in 2000. If so, that certainly didn't position United to pull through the storm that was ahead! Could the pilot's demands of 2000 perhaps be just one contributing factor to why United is in the position it's in today - your thoughts?
 
mm320cap
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RE: UAL Creditors Oppose Deal W/Pilots

Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:31 am

UAL 777 CONTRAIL, and N79969,

Of course its all relative. I don't want to turn this into a "pilots make too much" post. And yes it's about me me me. Isn't it for all the employees? Ask the flight attendants who are threatening CAOS. Isn't that about ME? I know we make more than anyone else on the property. I also spent 10 years ane about $175,000 of my own money to get the job. There isn't another employee group out there that can make the same claim.

Again, this "sweetheart deal" needs to be looked at very carefully. Where does that leave us? BOTTOM of the industry. I would have had a pay raise if I had stayed at ACA. There are guys at Horizon and Comair at my seniority that are making more than me to fly a 70 seat jet. Where are the other employee groups? Any of them bottom of the industry? Absolutely not. If you want to look at the sacrifices made to save United the pilots are leading the pack, so I'm not sure how that is all about ME ME ME. That is true any way you do the math. Most dollars given. Highest percentage of pay lost. Highest percentage of pension lost to PBGC. Most dollars given per employee.
 
moman
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RE: UAL Creditors Oppose Deal W/Pilots

Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:40 am

MM320Cap:

You bring up some excellent points. There is a reason the pilots make so much more. It is simply the education and personal training that is involved. There's a reason doctors (pilots) make more than a nurse (flight attendants). Both jobs are very important and complement each other but require vastly different skillsets and training.

And anyways, it's always about ME ME ME. I don't know anyone who would find out that their buddy at work got a 20% raise and not think they shouldn't get it "for the sake of the team".

Moman

[Edited 2005-01-05 20:49:16]
AA Platinum Member - American Airlines Forever
 
ual777contrail
Posts: 2914
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RE: UAL Creditors Oppose Deal W/Pilots

Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:00 am

Mm320cap,
Boo Hoo, That is why the other groups could care less what happens to the pilots. If the pilots started having the thoughts that they aren't the airline, them the airline might run like a well oiled machine. Sad that a pilot thinks it is caos, try chaos.

I personally am tired of hearing you, and these other naive folks when saying I make more money because it cost me $175,000 to get where I am. I don't care if it cost you $500,000, you do make more money(at the airline Smile) than I, and you do deserve a great deal. But to make an ignorant statement like that, you said"
If you want to look at the sacrifices made to save United the pilots are leading the pack"

you guys put us in the bind were in now. Raises in 2000, when we were sinking into a hole leading silently into BK. Then retro pay in lump sums? You guys drained the airline, and with the help of Jim Goodwin and his posses of morons, tail spinned us into this hole. Now you say, we are bottom of the industry? Maybe having to work more hours? Your $175,000 got YOU what you wanted, stop bitching about it and accept that you will be at the bottom until we recover from your mess.

The other job groups have given a lot as well, and to say your leading the pack is both naive, and ignorant. Your response is, he has no clue what he is talking about, but sadly enough it isn't what you wanted to hear. People on this forum may think your a super hero, but I deal with people like you daily, and to me? Your just another whining pilot, looking for a shoulder to cry on, look elsewhere.

UAL 777 CONTRAIL
 
mm320cap
Posts: 323
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RE: UAL Creditors Oppose Deal W/Pilots

Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:08 am

UAL 777 CONTRAIL,

Once again, I'm not going to bother debating you about the summer of 2000 and whether we make more money than we should or not. If you think the pilots are soley responsible for the problems at United then you aren't smart enough for me to waste my keystrokes on. Just keep on mis-representing the facts... you're excellent at it.

What's wrong with bitching about a 50% paycut and an industry bottom contract? Find me an employee group at United that isn't bitching. Why can't the pilots? I'm sorry that you think that we are arrogant and worthless. I never fail to treat my fellow employees with dignity and the respect that they deserve. When I'm at work, the safety and comfort of my CREW (ALL of them) is my first priority.

I would still like you to show me how my statement that the Pilots have led the recovery effort at United is "ignorant". We have had the first and largest concession T/A every time. Show me 1 way that another group has given more (you can include senior management) in either percentage or total dollars and I will bow down and lick your boots in apology.

I can see it now. The flight attendants declare CHAOS (didn't know you couldn't make a typo on this forum, but thanks for "setting me straight"), we will declare Chapter 7 in a month or so, and you'll still be sitting here blaming me for our demise. Hey, if it makes you sleep better at night, go right ahead.

Last question. Why is it that you want me to accept that I will be at the bottom of the industry but you don't think the rest of United should be?
 
ewr757
Posts: 356
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2000 8:47 am

RE: UAL Creditors

Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:11 am



Mm320cap:

Got a little hand grenade to toss in here. UAL pilots, during our very trying times bitterly complained that CAL pilots were dragging the industry wages down and lowering the bar. More than one time some UAL Brain Surgeon ran his mouth and made it clear we should shut down as it was unfair to continue operate under court protection. etc. etc. etc.

Are you guys going to follow some of that same advice now and walk away from your jobs to save your ALPA brethren? After all, isn't this the very same things you lads accused others of doing?

Doesn't feel to good does it?

P.S. I'm not a scab so don't even bother going there.



 
lymanm
Posts: 1102
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RE: UAL Creditors Oppose Deal W/Pilots

Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:15 am

UAL 777 CONTRAIL, with all due respect, if you are an F/A, bag smasher, or CSR, Mm320cap would qualify for your job tomorrow. The reverse cannot be said. As such, a disparity in pay exists, and thus a disparity in what has been conceeded. Mm320cap is not being ignorant, he's stating the (unfortunate) cold hard truth. If your divisive attitude is representative of your employee group (whatever it may be) the resentment and bitterness will invariably be felt by the customer somewhere down the line. UAL can't afford that at the moment.
buhh bye
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: UAL Creditors Oppose Deal W/Pilots

Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:32 am

That's funny...we hardly got into discussion about the actual topic and more into a worker group vs. worker group battle.

What did it accomplish? Nothing. What did it show? Another reinforcement that the worker groups are incredibly bitter towards one another, and that solves nothing, and only creates more problems when United will really face critical times, which could very will come true very soon. If there is CHAOS, and certain contracts are thrown out, I don't know...UA may face Ch. 7 very quickly after US does. I don't want that to happen, but things aren't looking good right now.

A lot of people at UA, US, etc. are tired of the ongoing roller coaster. One way or another, I would say most want "the other shoe to drop" once and for all and get on with life, whatever the outcome. I of course want to see UA survive, but that seems like an increasing long shot.

I also spent 10 years ane about $175,000 of my own money to get the job. There isn't another employee group out there that can make the same claim.

Very few of course, but for the record...certain members of senior management. Take the center of the financial situation...CFO Jake Brace. He earned an MBA at Univ. of Chicago, which is by no means cheap. At today's prices, $40-$50k per year for a 2 year program. Throw in an ivy league education before that, and you're very close to $200k for an education. Time frame...well, you don't become CFO overnight...he spent at least 10-15 years getting to where he's at. I don't know the educational background of any other senior execs., but others may also fit into that category.

I don't have a crystal ball nor the answer that will bring everyone at UAL together. What I do know is that the longer this acrimony continues (dating back to at least 1985...) then UAL is in for even more turbulence than they have now.
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
bennett123
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RE: UAL Creditors Oppose Deal W/Pilots

Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:13 pm


I am due to fly to LAX with UA in April.

It would be nice that think that UA will still exist.

What with the creditors who do'nt want to pay wages on one side and the various staff groups on the other, that does not look hopeful.

On the point of pilot wages, if pilots are only paid the same as CSR's, then it essentially becomes a rich man's hobby. If you are viewing the career commercially, then you need to be able to re coup the entry cost.
 
RHSNYC
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RE: UAL Creditors Oppose Deal W/Pilots

Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:18 pm

"Lymanm" You could have made your same point and with more credibility without saying that a pilot would qualify to be a flight attendant, bag smasher, or CSR but not the opposite. Honestly, I wouldn't want some pilots handling a customer service problem like I wouldn't want to be at the controls of an airplane!
 
mm320cap
Posts: 323
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RE: UAL Creditors Oppose Deal W/Pilots

Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:21 pm

Well, I think this is my last post at A.net. I'm going to erase the website from my computer at the end of this. Our biggest problem, unfortunately, is ourselves. We have become a terrible place to work. It's all of our faults. Mangament for driving the wedge during their "divide and conquer" strategy, and all the rest of us for buying into it. I'm disappointed in myself that I took the bait from UAL777CONTRAIL and let my anger get the best of my post. It's such a stupid argument. Just wish I worked somewhere else, in some other industry. With so much animosity floating around, it has become such a dismal experience going to work every day. I still love to fly airplanes, but walking around being despised by everyone you see gets old after awhile.

So, I'll respond to a few posts here, and wish you all good luck and a better future.

EWR757, You bring up an EXCELLENT point, and one that I have been wrestling with since these pay cuts began. We are leading the charge to the bottom. For the record, I voted for our first round of concessions. The pay that we got with Contract 2000 was totally out of sync with the new industry. That contract put us right about in line with you at Continental. I voted against the latest round of paycuts, because I think we are worth more than what they will pay us. It might cost me my job, and I had to think long and hard about it, but I agree with you that at some point you have to draw the line in the sand for the good of the profession, and this latest T/A crossed it for me.

Rhsnyc, I wouldn't make it 5 minutes in your job as a CSR. Nor as a flight attendant for that matter. I have said time and time again that those two employee groups have THE toughest job in the industry. I just wouldn't have the temperment for it. The really good CSRs and Flight Attendants have my utmost respect and admiration. I wish you the best.

StevenUhl777, Point taken about Brace and senior management. You have to have put in the time and money to get their. I would have liked to have seen them lead by example and take at least as big a cut as I did, but hey, that's the business. I guess I could have gone for my MBA if I wanted that job.

Finally, UAL777CONTRAIL, I don't know exactly how this got into a personal flamethrow between the two of us, but I've had enough. I get all the negative energy I need every day at work, so I'm going to sign off here and wish you good luck in 2005. I see by your profile that you are in real estate now, and I got from your post that you are making good money. I hope that continues for you. At the end of the day its all about feeding the family.
 
scotron11
Topic Author
Posts: 1432
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:54 pm

RE: UAL Creditors Oppose Deal W/Pilots

Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:29 pm

Mm320cap

Sorry to read this. Hope you reconsider.

Regards
 
ual777contrail
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2002 11:33 am

RE: UAL Creditors Oppose Deal W/Pilots

Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:47 pm

~~~~~~UAL 777 CONTRAIL, with all due respect, if you are an F/A, bag smasher, or CSR, Mm320cap would qualify for your job tomorrow.

He couldn't do what we do. You cant just walk off the street and think you can handle every problem. Mn320cap, can be a pilot. Don't blame me for not wanting to be one. I don't want his job, I just want him to stop whining because he thinks the sacrifices at UAL rest of his job group alone. Sad to see mm320cap blow so quickly, he was a powder cage ready to blow. If he cant take a simple discussion on a forum that means nothing, imagine him in general.

So in short, what have we learned. NEVER talk to a pilot about pay. NEVER tell a pilot you don't want his job(he'll say your jealous every time). NEVER tell a UAL pilot his job group is to blame for the summer from hell, and our current situation.

NWAFA, I wont take a trip to your little world.

UAL 777 CONTRAIL
 
ual777contrail
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2002 11:33 am

RE: UAL Creditors Oppose Deal W/Pilots

Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:18 pm

Dont blame me he cant take what his group has dished out. We have the right to disagree, it isn't just because an over sensitive pilot cant handle it.

~~~~~chasing off yet another quality and qualified member of this forum.

I have chased off many other pilots? Wow, I didn't know I had the power. Smile

Ill informed opinions? Explain.

UAL 777 CONTRAIL

 
aaway
Posts: 1503
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:07 am

RE: UAL Creditors Oppose Deal W/Pilots

Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:10 pm

Being an ex-UAL employee who didn't like being forced to accept the ESOP, let me pose this question to those UAL employees who've been around long enough to know:
Subsequent to the termination of the ESOP, didn't ALL work groups who "participated" in the ESOP receive snapbacks as well as wage increases retroactive to 1994?
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
bigb
Posts: 1254
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

RE: UAL Creditors Oppose Deal W/Pilots

Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:50 pm

Way to go 777Cumtrail....chasing off yet another quality and qualified member of this forum...just because you have it out for pilots and ALPA as a whole does not make you God on this forum or in the company.

For once, I have to take up for Contrail this once. Obiviously, Mm320cap can't handle an discussion here at a.net, he won't make it being an CSR.

Mm320cap, I wish best of luck with everything at UAL. Your right, work groups need to come together as a team. Thats how Detroit Pistions be the L.A. Lakers for the NBA championship last season. Thats how UAL gonna have to exit BK, that is as a team.
ATP, CFI, CFII, MEI, B747-400, CRJ-200/700/900
 
baw716
Posts: 1463
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:02 pm

RE: UAL Creditors Oppose Deal W/Pilots

Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:16 pm

Whoa...where did this come from?

I thought we were discussing the UAL creditors opposition to the deal structered between UAL management and ALPA regarding the UAL pilots pension?

First, let me address the issue at hand. While I can understand the intent of management and ALPA to come to some agreement to soften the blow to the pilots (who are taking a disproportionately large hit from a wage/benefit perspective of all the employee groups), this agreement will be dead on arrival at the BK court. First, UAL management cannot give equity in trade for pension concessions, because they don't have it to give. The creditors who are the first in line to be paid once UAL is back up and running are the DIP financers, and since they hold the assets of the company as collateral for those loans, they are not going to agree to anything that gives away their position to recover their money should UA default and be forced to liquidate.

This agreement is a little scary for two reasons. If UA management actually believes they can get this agreement through the bankruptcy court and by the creditor committee, then I want the stuff they are smoking. It also makes me wonder if the reason they have not developed an exit strategy is that they don't have a plan....if they don't have a clue about what they are doing, how can they develop an exit strategy that they can effectively operate?

The situation at United may be worse than we all think. To consider offering the pilots equity in return for the pension is exactly what we did ten years ago with the ESOP program. Look where that got us? The pilots got the biggest piece of that pie (and also lost the most money when UA stock crashed).
I cannot believe they would go for this again....there must be some detail about this detail that is missing...

Now to this thread:
I have been very stauch in my support of UAL employees and exceptionally critical of UAL management. I have taken very strong positions regarding some of the actions of the employee groups, specifically the flight attendant union and CHAOS, which will serve noone...it will just hurt everyone; especially the flight attendants. However, to bash a group of employees because they (as a group) make more money than another, or to make another group of people feel as though they do not earn what they are paid is the same: Just plain poor manners. Even more, it is hurtful. There is no need for it.
Now is a time when we must come together, not tear each other apart.

Mm320Cap,
I am with NWAFA. There is no reason you should have to leave the website. There are quite a lot of us who are well spoken and fair minded. We don't always agree, nor are we always right, but at least we try to offer an honest opinion about the subject of the day and (to the best of my ability) only take issue with people who take issue with me, or if some makes an attack without backing it up with facts.

As a pilot, you are responsible for the lives of the passengers under your charge every time you step on board an aircraft.

To those who thing this is akin to driving a bus, THINK AGAIN! Yes, events are relatively rare, but this is due to the excellent maintenance of the aircraft and the professionalism of the pilots and air traffic controllers in the skies and at the airports. These guys earn their pay every day for keeping us safe when we fly, but in that odd circumstance when something goes wrong, I know that they have been trained on that situation to the point in which their response is almost automatic. Not everyone can do this and they have worked for years to get to this position in their lives. To state that a pilot does not deserve what they get paid is operating from either incorrect information, or is being malicious in their statements.

There is NO excuse for behaving badly. Just because someone else does, it doesn't give you the right to act in the same way. Remember what goes around, comes around and depending how it goes out out, it will come back the same way.

Mm320Cap did not deserve what he got.
Please reconsider your decision regarding the forum. Should you leave, the forum would be a little worse off with your absense

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
ANNOYEDFA
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:16 am

RE: UAL Creditors Oppose Deal W/Pilots

Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:31 pm

Mm320Cap: It's nice posting with people who actually work in the industry and know day to say what some of us put up with but in the end still like the job. Just yesterday I had a passenger hit my arm because I switched him from a broken seat and asked him to please hurry because we are turning on the active taxi way. He told me he did not like how I spoke to him. Mind you I was nothing more then helpful and pleasent. When I raised my voice and told him what he just did was assaulted me and he had no right to place his hands on me and I was also very nice to you. He got the picutre real quick as the 10 non-revs sitting around him became involved.... at the end of the day it still is worth it.... Through spankings, low pay and all!

Waiting for Acvitale to report this post to my airline now LOL!  Wink/being sarcastic

NWAFA!!! I THINK YOUR GREAT! WISH I COULD WORK A TRIP WITH YOU!  Smokin cool
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
tsully
Posts: 680
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 5:02 pm

Mm320cap

Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:37 pm

Mm320cap,


I just wanted to say that you're right on in all of your posts. The pilots at United are most definitely the sacrificial lambs... they're giving much more than anybody else.

Why don't the pilot-haters around here acquaint themselves with reality and realize that there are still management personnel making $500,000+ while only taking a measly 8% pay cut! Why not direct your anger at mgmt...that is where it belongs. Those turkeys are pretending to be in the same boat as everyone else, but it's all for show.

I just hope that everything works out for ALL employees. But the pilot bashing is obnoxious, ignorant and misplaced.
I love America. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle, but I'd rather be a dog in New York City than a prince in Riyadh.
 
tsully
Posts: 680
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 5:02 pm

Mm320cap

Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:58 am

mm320cap,


I think you're smart to sign off for good from this website. I'm the son of a UA capt, and I can't stand the anti-pilot sentiments on this board either. Most a.net users are very bitter towards the pilots, which is somewhat ironic in my opinion...considering their sweet aviation hobby wouldn't exist without the pilots.

Anyway...I'm not even the employee and I know how much I get irritated around here. You're not the first, and won't be the last airline pilot to come through this website and leave on account of the ignorance and bitterness possessed by many forum members. Just remember who you're dealing with on these boards...not exactly your informed professional group. That's what I always remember, and then I can tolerate their ignorance.

I know my dad wouldn't waste one second of his time in these forums. It would be nice for pilots to be able to have descent conversations with enthusiasts, but the pilot-bashers seem to follow and attack them wherever they go.

Stick to the UA pilots forum... a lot less aggravation.  Smile And happy flying.
I love America. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle, but I'd rather be a dog in New York City than a prince in Riyadh.

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