You guys this has been going on for a bit. Today was the worst of it though. During the Xmas season, it was routine to wait very lengthy periods of time for ramp staff to show up.Many many books offs.We would routinely contact STOC (which for those of you who don't know is operations) only to be told they are short of staff and we will have to wait. I think part of the problem is AC wants to sell that division of the company and they will have to compete with Globe Ground etc to handle AC aircraft. Personally, there is nothing more that I would like to see. They are indeed and spoiled bunch. I'm sorry but when does a bag chucker deserve 60,000$ a year with some overtime????When we had Globe ground handle us at CP, we had those guys bust their asses to get aircraft in and out ontime. Never had the bitching and moaning we deal with these guys. Most of the Globe guys were making way less money and far more dedicated. So sorry ramp, I hope management does bust you guys, but I hope they set up a contract first then let every one of you go. Many of us are unhappy about ACs situation but just when things are turning around you want to ruin it. They should get rid of you AND ACPA.I wish JAzz had our own ramp and pax service then we wouldnt have to rely on the incredibly lazy staff at mainline AC.

Crj 900, I strongly agree with you. It's not only Air Canada's reputation that this wildcat strike hurt but it hurt those at Jazz aswell. Let us not forget that passengers United, Lufthansa, and Austrian were also affected by the move. Do you think these people are going to go home and say great things about Air Canada?

Crj

I make nowhere near the 60,000 you quoted, and may I say that the ramp guys here in YYC bust their butts to do their work. To lump us all together is unfair, as some of the most dedicated guys I have ever worked with are AC ramp guys. And as for the wage difference between Hudson and AC it is pretty much non-existent now.

I completely respect the work ramp guys do. I assume this includes everyone that provides service to a jet. Like fuel, food, baggage, etc? Those guys are out in the elements whether its 100 degrees or -20. Rain, snow, ice, wind, etc. I've heard a person at an airport say "I'd love to have that job. Just sit around and drive that little cart around all day." Even if that were the extent of the job the elements thing makes it for me. I was unfortunate enough when I was younger to spend a day driving a roller around a newly installed soccer field. It was cold and windy and I suffered the entire time. The only thing that would have made it worse had it been raining.

I also know how my grandmother used to pack her suitcase. I think she used to travel with bricks. Or it at least felt that way. I can't imagine how these guys' backs hold up after handling thousands of these bags a day.

The situation is now "resolved" in the immediate term. This will come back to bite everyone:

TORONTO (AP)--Air Canada agreed Thursday not to fire any workers being investigated over allegations of "corrupt conduct" after a four-hour illegal strike stranded thousands of passengers at Toronto's Pearson International Airport.

Air Canada flights out of Toronto were grounded Wednesday night after ground crew workers at the country's largest airport walked off the job when the airline began reviewing allegations that ground crew employees punched out time cards for colleagues.

In a letter to employees Thursday, Air Canada said it reached a "fresh start" agreement that ensured no workers will be fired over allegations of "corrupt conduct" by ground crew employees. But it warned anyone caught punching out someone else's time card in the future would be fired.

[...]

I have a few friends out here in YYZ who have made very close to the figure above I quoted working the ramp. YYC may be different, but YZ and UL are pathetic. Furthermore the ramp situation sucks. Management has to fix the current way of staffing arrivals and departures. You guys should not be assigned specific flights per se, you should be assigned areas. If an aircraft comes in late, instead of sitting out on the ramp takin in the sun or running inside cause it's cold, even though it's not your flight, if yours is no where in sight, can't you at least marshall the damn thing in? plug in the power? open the fricken door? I have sat 30 mins on the ramp waiting for "our" crew while another group of guys sat there and looked at us but wouldn't do a thing. During restructuring, that should have all changed. I really want Jazz to have it's own ramp and CSAs. Just remember under the purchase capacity agreement Jazz has with AC we pay you for ramp and pax services, if we are not getting the service, then screw your contract, even if we are carrying an AC flight number we should be able to shop elsewhere. If you guys don't want to provide us with the service we are paying you for, then you'll have to share the ramp with Globe Ground or some group similar. Believe me there are alot of our flight crews who are pushing for exactly that to happen.

This is an open statement to ANY Air Canada employee who took part in the horrendously disgusting CRAP that occurred last night.

Okay -- so let me get this straight...

It's okay for employees of a company to defraud the company out of time, money and resources on a regular basis NOT by "just a little", but by a whole goshdamned LOT because you've taken a pay cut and job cuts and the fact that you don't like what the management is doing?

This is exactly why we need to RID this country of Labo(u)r Unions.

You have a CHOICE to work there. You have a CHOICE to move to another job if you're not liking your pay, or liking your management.

You do *NOT* have a right to ruin the vacations and travel plans of THOUSANDS of people to "make your point".

You do NOT have the right to ruin customers impressions of your company because you chose a path in life that made you have to work in a laborious environment.

You chose to work at Air Canada. They did not ask you to come work for them.

The actions taken by the defrauding individuals is equally abhorrent. You are no better than the Automobile Mechanic who screws around with your car so YOU have to pay more, or the plumber who comes and does unneccessary work on your plumbing in order to put a little more $$ in his own pocket.

I am glad that there are people at Air Canada who have decided to (for the time being) allow you all to keep your jobs, because if *I* had had anything to do with it, I would have fired all of you so fast, and replaced you with hard working people who actually care about customers and want a job.

To all those hard working airline employees who belong to unions only because you have to in order to keep your employment, and who care about customers, care about safety, and care about your company, I salute you for your efforts and contributions to our society.

To the rest of you, (and you know who you are) I hope you learn a really valuable life lesson really soon, that to make a point, you don't always have to yell and scream and be counter-productive. Learn to articulate and work together as a team to provide solutions to situations that need change.

I am so sorry to everyone else for my negative message. I am SICK of Unions holding us all by the short-and-curly's (pardon the expression) to further their illegal and disgusting behaviours.

1011yyz

That's exactly how things work here in YYC. If a crew cannot make their flight, another crew will marshall in the plane, and put the bridge on. Please stop making general statements on how all bases operate. And if your buddies are making that amount, it is only because of overtime, which out here is a rare thing.

I'm sure Neil and every other person bitching on this thread has done something illegally at their workplace at sometime in their lives. How many of you have taken company pens, paper or other supplies? If you have, then that makes you just as bad.

NO IT DOESN'T.

If I pocket a few office supplies, my company's CUSTOMERS don't get caught in the middle. The YYZ ground workers just didn't hurt AC, they screwed up the lives of thousands of people for hours. BIG difference.

And really, pens and paper, versus how many thousands of dollars a year in unearned pay? Come on, have a sense of proportion, will ya?

The CIRB has issued an order against the IAMAW at AC that basically prevents any of the rampies from attempting anything like this in the future. No wildcats, no sickouts, no slowdowns, no refusing OT on mass etc. It's probably the harshest order I've seen from the CIRB (Canadian Industrial Relations Board). The rampies have painted themselves into a corner.

http://www.ll2323iamaw.org/cirb/CIRB_Order_Jan20.pdf

I see the CIRB issued them a memorandum saying, essentially, "If you do this again, we will be very angry with you. And we will write you a letter showing you just how angry we are." In the U.S., a second occurrance would wind up with a Federal RICO suit against the union.

Exfatboy, the principal is still the same. Theft is theft, bottom line.
If you take a few pens every couple of months, and other employees do the same, how much does that cost your employer?
Sure, our customers got hurt, and that is something I'm not happy about. I totally disagree with what the ground crews did, and I know that there will be something done about it in the future, but you can't say to me that what AC employees did is bad, but you stealing supplies from your employer is acceptable. You must have a double standard.
And, again, AC is not the only company this happens to.

It was FRAUD that the ground workers committed. Can you not get this through your thick skull? I'm sickened that you refuse to realise the significance of what happened.

I'd be very curious to see how much money the airline lost because of the fraud scheme, and the subsiquent shutdown. I think anyone who walked out needs their salary slashed and put on a revenue sharing pay basis. Maybe, just maybe then they will care about the livelyhood of their employer!

AC_B777, no I don't have a "double standard", but I do recognize there are degrees of "badness", just as the legal system recognizes differences between (to use an extreme) murder and accidental manslaughter, or stealing a loaf of bread and stealing a car.

I never said stealing supplies from an employer is acceptable, I said it isn't nearly as bad as screwing up the lives of customers. The difference is that in this case, innocent third parties (thousands of them) suffered, while the perpetrators are apparently going to get off with no punishment at all.

Again, do you have a sense of proportion?

How do you put a value on the time your customers lost sitting on planes waiting to unload, or stuck somewhere because their flight is cancelled? I sat on a plane at JFK for over three hours once waiting for a gate, and missed an important personal event because of it. In my case, it was because of a backup caused by weather, and it was still irritating as all hell. If I'd found out it was because some union twits were throwing a tantrum over being caught breaking the rules, what would I be expected to do? Just smile and happily fly Air Canada in the future?

I'm curious if there's any basis under Canadian or common law for the customers (and flight crews who were separated from their familes and lives) to sue the ground crew union over this...

I wonder if a walkout happened with WestJet (if they were union), would she say the same? Something tells me not!!!

Westjet isn’t crawling out of bankruptcy protection after trying to wipe out the Canadian airline industry using “scorched earth” policies. Air Canada is.

Canadians are fed up with Air Canada and incidents like this just piss us off more.

Westjet isn’t crawling out of bankruptcy protection after trying to wipe out the Canadian airline industry using “scorched earth” policies. Air Canada is.

Canadians are fed up with Air Canada and incidents like this just piss us off more.

I wouldn't say they are "crawling" out of bankruptcy. Their load factors would suggest two things... 1) the airline is better utilizing their aircraft. 2) More people are flying AC.

Other airlines have tried to compete with AC in the past and could not for one reason or another. Too bad so sad. One day, a little airline out of Calgary tried and succeeded. Good for them. They found a competitive edge that the other airlines could not find. AC is not following a "scorched earth" policy anymore. They are focusing on profits.

This incident will not harm AC in the long term, but I still stand by what I said above; all employees taking part in this wildcat strike shold be terminated immediately.

-AC7E7

Canadians are fed up with Air Canada and incidents like this just piss us off more.

So what, AC should just shut down and everyone will be happy? Dream on.....

Westjet will never become the national airline for Canada, no matter how may of us think it will happen. All this nastiness will eventually fade and AC will continue to fly for at least the next few years.

I can't see why these workers would want their own company to fail for if AC shuts down, they lose their jobs.

Westjet will never become the national airline for Canada, no matter how may of us think it will happen.

Canada does not have a "national airline". Canada has a group of private sector airlines. WJ can fly 70% of AC's network with its 73G fleet, so don't be so quick to dismiss WJ. WJ is already larger than AC in terms of market capitalization and profit. How many years before it passes AC in revenue and ASM?

Give it a rest Yyz717. You ask anybody in the world who is the national airline of Canada and what will they say? Ask them what country Westjet flies in and they'll say who? You're the only one that doesn't think AC is the national airline!!!

Well, Robert Milton (the failed CEO of AC) finally spoke publicly about the Tuesday night wildcat strike.

He said that it was unrelated to any labour negotiations and that he stands by the customer service of his airline. What he does not seem to get is that labour negotiations is more than just meeting with labour once every 3 years -- it means maintaining a good relationship with them at all times. As for the customer service, tell it to the Tuesday night customers Robert!

Oh yeah....and where was Robert Milton today? He was at a book launch in downtown Toronto. Shouldn't this bozo be running an airline???????????

You ask anybody in the world who is the national airline of Canada and what will they say?

Canada does not have an official national airline. That's my point. As AC continues to shrink, and WJ and others continue to grow, this will become more and more apparent.

We need a North American Open Skies arrangement, and we need the governments to stop proping them up. Then let all involved carriers fend for themselves.

Oh yeah....and where was Robert Milton today? He was at a book launch in downtown Toronto. Shouldn't this bozo be running an airline???????????

Actually, Montie Brewer is in charge of running the airline  

We need a North American Open Skies arrangement, and we need the governments to stop proping them up. Then let all involved carriers fend for themselves.

That's true. Its time to let United die peacefully, nevermind these 90-day extentions.

-AC7E7

Yes Neil, give it a rest. Most people here are getting tired of you continuous bitter old ramblings about AC and Robert Milton.
Your continued hostilities for AC, its employees, unions and RM are very old and boring at this point. It's time for you to grow up and act like the person you claim to be and give up the childish name calling.
BTW, if you know so much about AC, then why do you still call RM the CEO when he is not?
I will stress this to everyone here, a few people in the almighty YYZ have made it bad for every employee and the company as a whole. If you think they will go unpunished, then you are sorely wrong. Give a little while and they will be dealt with. 99% of my co-workers that I have talked to think they should and will be dealt with and are very sorry about what happened to all of our customers.
We are all happy to be out of CCAA and have our jobs, and when a group of people pull a stunt like this, then they will not get any respect from most of their peers.

AC_B777, you are very true that it was only a small minority of employees, but the action they took affected the whole airline. If you read any media, it was bad news for Air Canada. The union blamed the employees for being disheartened at Air Canada spending money on marketing while they had to take pay cuts. What a load of bullshit.

The emplyees will not be dealt with because part of the deal for them to go back to work was by offering them a clean slate. The only way they will be affected is if they choose to defraud the company of more money.

"Buzz and company can suck it." Amen to that!

BTW, who is the president of IAMAW? I think he should do something about this to save his own credibility.

"but saying I'll NEVER fly AC is a bit drastic, don't you think?" Sure, but what else are people going to say when they're pissed off because someone else who is pissed off decided to take out their frustrations on the pax?

"More people are flying AC." Yeah, but let's see how long this lasts. Even customers who might have come back thinking that the airline had changed its character may not be so keen on flying AC now.

Spend all the money you want on Celine Dion and new uniforms, what earns loyalty and the desire to fly on a carrier is the faith that the carrier will be able to abide by the terms of the contract that they made with you to the best of their ability. Taking no action against a group of employees who broke the law signals to the pax that their expectations of efficient service are not the priority of AC.

Don't get me wrong, I will continue to fly AC and have had some great flights with them, but my business alone will not keep an airline in the sky. Even though I know that the AC employees who did this are not representative of all AC employees, much of the flying public is not as forgiving.

The people of Canada (and the world) are entitled to have a carrier that will take action against those who interfere with the contract of carriage made between the carrier and them. The response by AC headquarters is not encouraging. All employees who participated in this action should have been severely dealt with.

And no, Canada is NOT part of the USA, so knock off the ideas that pax should just go through a Canadian section of ORD or something like that. Ideas like that are ludicrous and you know it. Respect national sovereignty of a great country, just like people in the USA expect for their own country.

Talk about a great opportunity to lower your costs and fire all of those workers and start with newer employees at the front end of the pay scale....

A few notes . . .

I'm not pro-union, but if any company needs a union, it's Air Canada. They have some of the worst managers I've ever seen or heard about. Managers will wink at an abuse of the system, then suddenly crack down. Consistency is a problem. Guys have been fired or disciplined for things that would just amaze you. There is a very antagonistic approach to any problem.

On the other hand, the unions have far too much power. It's very difficult to fire someone who deserves it. Guys can lean on their tool boxes all day, sit on the internet for hours, etc. That's not right, either.

The legacy of being a Crown corporation is part of the problem. There are a lot of long time employees who believe Air Canada owes them something beyond the next paycheque. Part of the problem is that the young guys, who've been hired afterwards, are often laid off because of reduced manpower requirements. The "owes me a job" crowd is still there.

I have no doubt that some, maybe even most, ramp workers are dedicated, care about the customer, and work hard. But I have seen some who are inconsiderate, lazy, etc, who wouldn't have jobs if there wasn't a union.

WJ can fly 70% of AC's network with its 73G fleet, so don't be so quick to dismiss WJ. WJ is already larger than AC in terms of market capitalization and profit. How many years before it passes AC in revenue and ASM?

Westjet has about 50 737's, AC has 113 A320 series, plus RJ's, A330's, A340's, 767's, plus Jazz, plus Embraers starting this year. Keep on growing, you've got a long way to go.

This incident should never have happened, but it's typical of the mindset of some employees. They should have been fired, or at least suspended, but that would have led to more rebellion, and AC's managers can't handle it.

Your continued hostilities for AC, its employees, unions and RM are very old and boring at this point. It's time for you to grow up and act like the person you claim to be and give up the childish name calling.

This is coming from someone who admits to having left worked early himself while getting someone else to clock him out. You are as bad as the YYZ employees on Tues night. You've stolen from AC and arguably committed a criminal act. I'm not sure it's me who needs to grow up. Work an honest day's work....and then we can talk further.

Anyway, even as the Chairman, Robert Milton remains a highly paid Sr exec. As the Chairman of company still emerging operationally from a bankruptcy mere months ago, he should be working 12-hour days to help get AC back on its feet.........NOT ATTENDING BOOK LAUNCHES on a Friday afternoon.

It's time to resign Robert Milton. You're a failure and your heart is clearly not in it.

There's a saying that goes - Diplomacy is the art of saying "niiice doggie" until you find a big stick. - If I were a baggage handler at AC I'd be holding off on any major purchases and looking for a new line of work.

Cheers

Yyz717

you wouldn't know $hit about a hard days work on the ramp at AC. I'd like to see you spend a day on the ramp in YYC. Work 3 A319s 1 after another with 3 guys on a crew and over 150 bags on each aircraft. Then get your 30 mins lunch break and go do it all over again. In between those flights do the odd aircraft groom. Oh and did I mention its -26 with -40 windchill and blowing snow. Until you've done it don't pretend you know what your talking about. We don't pretend to know your job, if you have one!!!!

you wouldn't know $hit about a hard days work on the ramp at AC.

Apparently neither do most of the YYZ AC ramprats either.

If I have any questions about the hard work involved on a ramp, I'll ask a WJ ramper. The most productive & hard working employees are always found in the profitable companies, not the bankrupt ones.

Funny considering that WS has none of their 'own' rampies. I know, yes they contract out, but the company they have for ground services also has many more people working their 737's.
Here in YYT, Globe Ground, who does WS, SG, and C6 have anywhere from 8-14 guys working 737's. At AC, we may get a crew of 5 to work a 763 or a 319.
Yes, Neil, I have in the PAST left my work place early, and I shouldn't have, but since I have been recalled, it is a practice that I try not to do anymore as I feel I have been given a second chance.
However, I have NEVER nor will NEVER leave my work place early if there is still work to be done or there are still a/c on the ground to be worked. I don't leave my co-workers short. When I have left early, it has only been when all a/c have left the station or are "put to bed" for the night and when mgmt has given an OK. Could you say the same clain Neil?
BTW Neil, how do you know what RM works? Just because he was at a book launchinig, does not mean that he doesn't work 12 hour days. The man wrote a book and he was at the launch....BIG FREAKIN DEAL!!! You can't say for certainty how he runs his day or what hours he works.
Again, just more foolish, simple minded attacks. Personally, I think you are jealous because it's someone else and not you.
Spend a day or week in the life or a rampie, and you'll know what real physical work is.

Funny considering that WS has none of their 'own' rampies.

WS does their own ground handling in YYC, their busiest base.

WS does their own ground handling in YYC, their busiest base.

And from listening to WJ employee's it's the only base where they aren't having problems with their ground-handling. Globe-Ground has been giving them fits in some stations.

I'll call 'em as I see 'em. If the ramp can't get their act together then that's the way I see it. If guys in YYC will marshall an a/c in the you are not assigned, then you are the exception and good for you...I guess YYC is special. As for the guys making 60,000$ a year on the ramp, it is through overtime and that is more money than some of our FOs make. The ground support system at this airline is awful, it was far better premerger at CP. We used to hear how fabulous everything was on the other side of the fence and from day one is wasn't like it was supposed to be and only got worse. It certainly wasn't CPs fault. AC has got to be one of the poorest managed companies around, the only reason CP went first is AC had deeper pockets....woulda been better if it had been the other way around. You see at CP we weren't so concerned about new Airbuses etc, we were concerned with operational efficiency and customer service, something that seem to elude AC. Thats why when I work and on the odd occasion passengers ask me where I was from BEFORE the merger and I tell them CP, they always seem to say, WE miss you guys.

Crj,
You and I both know that it is only through overtime, and giving up days off that those guys make that much, and in time will that FO, making less right now, will easily be doubling that salary and working less. You are giving the example of senior guys making the top wage as compared to a relatively new pilot. Lets start with a fair comparison, A FO, making around 35,000 to start(just a guess) and a rampie starting at $8/hour. A top rate baggage handler making $45,000/ year plus overtime, and what's the top rate for a QK pilot? I don't begrudge them, they worked hard for it, and they deserve it, but lets make sure we are comparing the same thing, not top of the pay scale of one, and the bottom of the other. Everyone who starts out doing any job starts at the bottom. As for the ground service being so awful, I hate to be the one to inform you of this, but the majority of the guys left are ex-CP ramp staff, the AC work force was junior and they got the axe when layoffs hit. So if you have a problem, I guess its with your old employees, and something tells me that if they are doing that stuff now, they were doing it then. As for people saying that they miss you guys, of course some of them will miss you, May I say that if you really think things were that much better at CP, and AC is that terrible, maybe its time to move on. We need some people not looking back at the old days and criticizing what's going now, but trying to make this work, regardless of how screwed up we think certain aspects of this airline are.