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767-300ER
Topic Author
Posts: 247
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 7:20 am

CO To GRU

Mon Jan 24, 2005 8:32 am

How profitable is GRU for CO, i recently flew IAH-GRU-IAH and both flights were asking for volunteers to give up their seats. Are these flights usually that full? Also i spoke to an FA and she told me that the EWR flight lately has not been going out daily, does anyone know why? All in all is CO making money on the GRU routes? Do you think IAH-GRU could ever go 764 year round?

Thanks Everyone
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1226
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

RE: CO To GRU

Mon Jan 24, 2005 8:52 am

Guys,

I have another important question regarding CO's service to Brazil: when will CO restart its EWR-GIG nonstops?!??

For that matter, when will AA restart its JFK-GIG service??

I used to fly this route ALL the time for work and loved those nonstops to Rio!!
 
CO2BGR
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2003 11:30 am

RE: CO To GRU

Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:03 am

EWR-GRU has been going daily. There were a handful (maybe three) of days it did not fly during the holidays.
There are too many self indulgent weiners in this town with too much bloody money" Randal Raines- Gone in 60 Seconds
 
777gk
Posts: 1488
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2000 3:04 am

RE: CO To GRU

Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:19 am

EWR-GIG was a relatively low-yielding market and the 767 which was used on it briefly was redeployed elsewhere in the system.

We flew EWR-GIG-CNF, EWR-GRU, and IAH-GRU-GIG with DC-10s first, then ran 764s alongside the -10s when they first entered service. We dropped the nonstop EWR-GIG and replaced it with a one stop through GRU using the IAH-originating aircraft, and Belo Horizonte was terminated altogether. This was due to allocation issues and, as mentioned, a poor yield environment.

Comparatively speaking, I would say we have been least successful in the South America market, with a number of flights planned, started, and dropped within a short period of time. In 1998, according to a source, the plan was to have nonstop service from both IAH and EWR to any combination of EZE, SCL, MVD, VVI, CNF, GRU, GIG, LIM, and LPB by 2004.

Interesting to see how dramatically things change over time.
 
ramerinianair
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:03 am

RE: CO To GRU

Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:24 am

With the ability of CO's management to find a healthy niche in the Mexico market, it comes as a suprise that they couldn't do better.
Then again, the Mexico market was underserved and the South American market is covered well by AA.
SR
W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1226
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

RE: CO To GRU

Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:45 am

777gk,

I am much more interested in the southern cone market (EZE, MVD, GIG, GRU, SCL) as it's where I travel to...

So, CO has just abandoned its plans to service these routes?? Only EWR-GRU-GIG and IAH-GRU??? That's it?? No EZE or restart EWR-SCL???

Damn, I was hoping for all these new routes!

AA dominates the nonstop NYC-s.cone market and I wanted CO to compete!!
 
klwright69
Posts: 2712
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

RE: CO To GRU

Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:25 am

777gk, you are right about CO scaling back plans in South America. A little like DL. I remember reading a Wall Street Journal article back in 1996. The article announced DL's plans to become the premier player in Latin America alongside American. According to the article, by now, 2005, DL was also supposed to serve just about everywhere in Latin America nonstop from JFK.
 
stock1985
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:47 am

RE: CO To GRU

Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:48 am

How much were they offering volunteers? I am curious, bc when i was on the flight from RIO to IAH, I asked in GRU to see if they needed any volunteers and the agent was grateful for me volunteering, but did not need me...I did get a free drink voucher, however. THese flights seem to be routinely full, from what I hear, and Brazil is definitely a growing market.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 13548
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: CO To GRU

Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:13 pm

I have flown JFK-GRU several times and I never have seen an empty seat. I have flown Varig and UA. May try AA this December. Got to fly that 777!
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1226
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

RE: CO To GRU

Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:41 pm

Guys,

Well, we all know the EWR-GRU and JFK-GRU flights will always be full, but we already have plenty of options to GRU from NYC...

No, I am interested in non-stops to GIG, EZE and SCL (and, maybe MVD too one day). AA flies JFK-EZE daily on the 763 (have taken the flight many times), but will CO step up? Granted AR also flies JFK-EZE, but it's only, like, 4x until Argentina gets CAT1 again from the FAA.

Is there sufficient market demand for CO to fly EWR-EZE daily with the 762, with an extension to MVD, perhaps?

What about nonstop GIG service; routing through GRU (or dreadful MIA for that matter) BLOWS! Rio is a very important business destination for NYC, with several industries, such as Brazil's energy sector, headquartered there.

It seems MIA always gets more options than JFK/EWR; totally bizarre considering just how much larger and more important NYC is for high-yielding O&D traffic...
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: CO To GRU

Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:49 pm

How is the bilateral US-Brazil agreement?

The last information I have is that the agreement is operating close to its limit. Apparently UA has an open position to Brazil, and CO, AA and DL have all applied for the DOT.

If UA decides to use its position to Brazil, what could be the flight (UA already operates daily ORD-GRU-GIG and IAD-GRU). Maybe we could see UA operating nonstop ORD-GIG? For me it does make sense to see UA increasing flights to Brazil since GRU/GIG are Star hubs.

777gk, you are right about CO scaling back plans in South America. A little like DL.

DL increased its flights to GRU in December/04 to two daily flights ATL-GRU.

One thing important to consider regarding Brazil is domestic onward connections from GRU/GIG to other domestic destinations (Brazil has the size of continental US). UA is a Star partner of RG and AA has a cooperation with JJ. CO and DL are all left without domestic connections in Brazil. I know CO has a cooperation with regional airline OceanAir to connect pax from GIG/GRU to some small oil-rich cities in the State of Rio de Janeiro.

Rgs,


[Edited 2005-01-24 09:59:35]
 
latinaviation
Posts: 1162
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:25 pm

RE: CO To GRU

Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:31 am

For that matter, when will AA restart its JFK-GIG service??

I doubt you'll see this route again on AA. It performed terribly as a 767-200ER, I don't know how the economics on a dual-class 767-300ER would change that, though.
 
aa777jr
Posts: 2269
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:03 pm

RE: CO To GRU

Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:41 am

AA does a JFK-GRU-GIG flight on their 777. I doubt they need a n/s JFK-GIG flight with the above operating as AA# 951.

Regards,

AA777jr
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
panam330
Posts: 2162
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:58 am

RE: CO To GRU

Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:09 am

So are the only non-stop US- GIG non-stops from MIA? If so, that really blows. Also, is AA's JFK-EZE always a 777, and is their 777 seasonal from JFK-SCL?


Thanks,
Will
 
Lan_Fanatic
Posts: 1056
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2001 11:41 am

RE: CO To GRU

Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:36 am

Panam330, AA does not fly JFK-SCL. Thy operate to SCL only from MIA and DFW.
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: CO To GRU

Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:43 am

are the only non-stop US- GIG non-stops from MIA? If so, that really blows

Yes, it's really bad. Meanwhile, Europe-GIG you have the following nonstop options: CDG (AF and RG), FRA (RG), MAD (IB) and LIS (TP).

Is AA's JFK-EZE always a 777

No, AA uses the 767-300 on JFK-EZE. The only routes which AA uses the B777 to Latin America are: MIA-GRU daily and JFK-GRU-GIG daily.

Is their 777 seasonal from JFK-SCL

As mentioned above, AA does not operate JFK-SCL.

Rgs,
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1226
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

RE: CO To GRU

Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:47 am

Will,

I TOTALLY agree, no nonstop service from JFK or EWR to GIG totally BLOWS!!

I do not understand why AA's old JFK-GIG nonstop had low yields... Rio is huge city with tons of O&D traffic and is Brazil's most important business destination, after S.P. Brazil's energy industry as well as much of its telecom and media sectors are based in Rio!

Also, AA's JFK-EZE is on the 767-323ER, not the 777-223ER [AA flies the 772 to GRU].

Even more OUTRAGEOUS is the fact we do not have ANY nonstop JFK/EWR-SCL service! Ridiculous... Having to connect in MIA or LIM completely BLOWS!
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: CO To GRU

Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:53 am

Pdpsol:

You're totally right...what's the explanations for this lack of service JFK-GIG, EZE, SCL? On the other hand, I find that GRU is completely saturated...from NYC alone you could fly nonstop RG, AA, CO, JL.

Rgs,
 
Southamerica
Posts: 2333
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:56 am

RE: CO To GRU

Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:54 am

The only routes which AA uses the B777 to Latin America are: MIA-GRU daily and JFK-GRU-GIG daily.

Again Hardi, forgetting EZE, in this case MIA-EZE.

SDQ also sees the 777s once in a while, though not currently scheduled.


As mentioned above, AA does not operate JFK-SCL.

... and even if they did, given AA's actual fleet, configuration and SCL's conditions it wouldn't be a 777 either.




SOUTHAMERICA
 
Lan_Fanatic
Posts: 1056
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2001 11:41 am

RE: CO To GRU

Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:59 am

Even more OUTRAGEOUS is the fact we do not have ANY nonstop JFK/EWR-SCL service! Ridiculous... Having to connect in MIA or LIM completely BLOWS!

I think the same Pdpsol! The same happens with SCL -London... But well, you don't have to "connect" at LIM, just wait in the plane.
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
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RE: CO To GRU

Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:00 am

Again Hardi, forgetting EZE, in this case MIA-EZE

Tks for the correction. I like the subtleness of your "again"...do I make so many mistakes?  Big grin

Rgs,
 
Lan_Fanatic
Posts: 1056
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2001 11:41 am

RE: CO To GRU

Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:02 am

I like the subtleness of your "again"...do I make so many mistakes?

Not of my business, but perhaps too many pro-Brazil mistakes?  Big grin
 
Southamerica
Posts: 2333
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:56 am

RE: CO To GRU

Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:04 am

I like the subtleness of your "again"

I also like the subtle, innocent way of you clouding EZE as the good market it is, and giving all the southern-cone credits to GRU  Big grin



Do I make so many mistakes?

Not at all. Just refer to the above.




SOUTHAMERICA
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: CO To GRU

Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:08 am

Lan_Fanatic:

On the other hand, I loved the way you described a stop-over:

.you don't have to "connect" at LIM, just wait in the plane.  Big grin

Rgs,
 
767-300ER
Topic Author
Posts: 247
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 7:20 am

RE: CO To GRU

Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:25 am

So how profitable are the IAH-GRU flights in comparisson to other international flights out of IAH for CO? Could that flight ever go to 764 year round?
 
AA787
Posts: 520
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 7:46 am

RE: CO To GRU

Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:49 am

What are the loads normally on AA's JFK-EZE flights?

AA787
 
Max Q
Posts: 8505
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: CO To GRU

Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:14 pm

I fly the EWR-GRU nonstop usually once a month and we are always full, used to operate a 764 on the route but it had performance problems out of Sao Paulo, 762 has no problem but too small really, -300 would be ideal

I miss the RIO trips they were grreat, we should still be there.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: CO To GRU

Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:26 am

CO loads IAH-GRU during 2004 were 90%, in other words, you can expect most flights to be completely FULL. With this in mind, I assume they would keep the B767-400 all year around for 2005.

EWR-GRU-GIG is still the B767-200, maybe we could see an upgrade to -300? No idea.

Also agree, GIG lacks nonstop flights to NYC, but I cant see any possible nonstop link JFK/EWR to GIG in the medium term.

As I said, UA has a dormant position to Brazil, which they would use from ORD or IAD. Otherwise, the US-Brazil biltarel is operating at its limit, and airlines would not use their positions for GIG considering that GRU is a much higher yielding market.

Rgs,
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1226
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

RE: CO To GRU

Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:32 am

Guys,

Is it me, or is CO seriously kicking itself for not ordering any 767-300ER's, having to rely on its 767-224ER's for higher performance runs and the larger 767-424ER's as well??
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8522
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: CO To GRU

Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:52 am

I think UA should go ORD/IAD-ATL-GRU or maybe via DFW. DL's flight are ALWAYS full... not sure now since they have 2X 763 daily now, but they should have good loads as well. DL, nor CO (Ocean Air doesn't count, yet!), codeshare with anyone in Brazil... so UA could make DL drop at least one daily frequency... each of DL's flight is 2-3 hours apart.

Is it me, or is CO seriously kicking itself for not ordering any 767-300ER's, having to rely on its 767-224ER's for higher performance runs and the larger 767-424ER's as well??

Somehow I really think so! But can't confirm that either, so...

Cheers,

PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: CO To GRU

Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:32 am

UA should go ORD/IAD-ATL-GRU

It would never work. ATL is DL territory, and as you said DL now has two daily red-eye flights to GRU, leaving no room for any other player.

UA's dormant position to Brazil, if ever used, would operate from IAD or ORD (possibly nonstop to GIG). Interesting enough, overall CO and DL, both without a partner in Brazil, are doing better in the Brazilian market than UA, which has RG as a partner...

Rgs,
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26252
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: CO To GRU

Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:23 am

I think UA should go ORD/IAD-ATL-GRU or maybe via DFW. DL's flight are ALWAYS full... not sure now since they have 2X 763 daily now, but they should have good loads as well.

I'd be willing to bet less than 5% of those passengers are staying in Atlanta. Delta operates over 1,000 daily flights from Atlanta. One-stop connections between Sao Paulo and over 160 cities worldwide, including Tokyo, London, New York City, San Francisco, Tucson, Anchorage, and Seoul...that's how they have no problem filling up the flights. UA doesn't have that advantage. Neither did Varig, who unsuccsessfully flew to Atlanta in the late 1990s.
a.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8522
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: CO To GRU

Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:34 am

Indeed, that is true, most pax probably go on somewhere else from ATL.

Neither did Varig, who unsuccsessfully flew to Atlanta in the late 1990s.

Yes, I've seen RG's logo in ATL. But apparantly they were removed since last time I was there (June 04).

Cheers,

PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
cjuniel
Posts: 123
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 2:02 pm

RE: CO To GRU

Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:01 am

Hardiwv,

Just to clarify, the UA flight that continues to GIG originates at IAD, not ORD.
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: CO To GRU

Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:46 am

UA flight that continues to GIG originates at IAD, not ORD.

Tks for the info. So I think if UA uses its dormant position to Brazil we could see the start of a nonstop flight IAD-GIG, and UA would then continue its service IAD-GRU and ORD-GRU.

Anyone knows how UA is doing in MVD, loads and yields? Do they have 5th freedom rights EZE-MVD? Considering that PU/RG is a Star partner, UA must have a good pax base in Uruguay. Could we ever see UA starting MVD nonstop?

Rgs,
 
lima
Posts: 1090
Joined: Sun May 30, 1999 11:37 am

RE: CO To GRU

Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:08 am

Hardi,

Yes, UA has traffic rights between EZE and MVD (so has American with its EZE-MVD). In fact EZE serves as a hub and this flight feeds Uruguay passengers to and from Chicago and Washington. I flew the route two times with United and flights where half full.

I do not know if the aircraft coming from Washington or Chicago continues into MVD. In late December a few flights from Chicago to Buenos Aires were operated by a 747-400 due to the high demand. I think it is the Washington flight that continues into MVD. In planepictures there are pictures of the 747-400 parked on a remote position in the afternoon, a time where the 767 is in MVD waiting for the evening return flight.

Greetings,

Lima
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14549
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: CO To GRU

Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:36 am

AFAIK, both the flights that continue on to other South American destinations (847 and 861 to MVD and GIG respectively) are the a/c that come from IAD, as the flight numbers imply. The connection time off the ORD flights for both is under an hour, and I don't think UA would plan turns that tight.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: CO To GRU

Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:15 am

UA has traffic rights between EZE and MVD

Tks for the info.

Interesting enough, AA also has traffic rights EZE-MVD, and the schedule of AA flight fits with IB flight MAD-EZE, allowing for immediate connection of IB pax from EZE to MVD on AA flight.

Does anyone know what is the time limit for UA to decide whether it will (or not) use its current dormant position to Brazil? (considering that CO and DL already applied for DOT to Brazil).

Rgs,
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: CO To GRU

Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:59 am

Is it me, or is CO seriously kicking itself for not ordering any 767-300ER's

...it's you. CO did order the 763ER  Big grin
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1226
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

RE: CO To GRU

Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:46 am

Concordeboy,

...it's you. CO did order the 763ER

Really? I just checked the Boeing orders website; no mention of CO ever ordering the 763ER...

Just lists the 10 762ER's ordered in 1998 and 16 764ER's ordered in 1997; first deliveries for both models in 2000.

Still think the 763ER may suit them better for several of their routes.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 14138
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: CO To GRU

Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:42 am

CO ordered 10 (I believe) 767-300s in the Early-1990s, they cancelled the order at the last minute. One or two aircraft were rumored to have already been painted in CO's colors, the aircraft were aquired by other airlines like Delta, Air New Zealand and possibly Vietnam Air.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
CORULEZ05
Posts: 1250
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 10:39 am

RE: CO To GRU

Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:49 am

Not that profitable...hence the reason for the 762 instead of a larger plane.......have flow the route with a brazilian friend of mine and I would say it was about 80% full........in a 762.
Fly jetBlue today!!!!!!!
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: CO To GRU

Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:04 pm

CO never took delivery... but the 767-324ER still exists in service today.

VN and DL operate them, dunno about any others.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: CO To GRU

Sat Feb 05, 2005 5:33 pm

I fly the EWR-GRU nonstop usually once a month and we are always full, used to operate a 764 on the route but it had performance problems out of Sao Paulo, 762 has no problem but too small really, -300 would be ideal

Also agree with Pdpsol, CO reliance on the 762 and 764 leads to a market gap for the 763, which would be ideal for the route EWR-GRU (IAH-GRU uses the 764).

What would be the performance problem of the 764 out of Sao Paulo? Any technical reasons?

Rgs,

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