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Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:15 am
by NYC777
Now that the 787 has gained significant momentum aver the past 5 weeks, who's going to be the next to order?

I'm willing to say it'll be ILFC for 20 and Qatar for 30 + 30 options. I also think that AF might come in with a an order for 10 - 15. Just my opinion. No piling on please.

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:16 am
by 7e72004
My question is will CO really go through with their 7E7 order? I'm sorry...the 787  Big thumbs up

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:19 am
by NYC777
Yeah I think so. They new what they had to do before placing the order and GB wouldn't screw around with his old pals at Boeing if he didn't think that CO wouldn't be able to properly finance it.

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:21 am
by alb222
CO, AA, Dl all have Boeing agreements for future purchases. CO has already announced, both DL and AA if they survive will be buying them in the future to replace older aircraft I.E. A300, 767. Might be a couple of years before they order though.

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:22 am
by DLKAPA
Look for UA to purchase 500  Nuts

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:24 am
by NYC777
I didn't know that AA and DL have a purchase agreement for the 787? When was this?

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:25 am
by Orion737
Qatar? how many aircraft does the airline of this tiny state need? Lets wait and seem them fill their 380s first!

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:27 am
by FriendlySkies
I didn't know that AA and DL have a purchase agreement for the 787? When was this?

They don't. Unless Alb222 has some proof, I don't buy it. Neither of those airlines has any money...it would be like UA announcing an order for 50 tomorrow... Insane

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:28 am
by N328KF
Orion737:

You're saying that a small city-state doesn't need a lot of aircraft, right? Sort of like Hong Kong or Singapore?

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:31 am
by 767-332ER

I'm willing to be on Qatar for about two dozen 787's.

Lufthansa for about 15 787s

Regards

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:35 am
by NYC777
Qatar? how many aircraft does the airline of this tiny state need? Lets wait and seem them fill their 380s first!

The 380s will be used on entirely different routes compared to the 787. They'll be able to fill a 380 on a flight to LHR but not to a flight to (for example Nairobi).

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:44 am
by alb222
It is amazing that people say things that are in posts that are not stated.
Fact: CO, DL, AA have agreements with Boeing to purchase future aircraft from them. No where did I say that DL or AA have purchased 787. What I am saying is that DL, CO and AA have commited to buy their future aircraft from Boeing. I never stated that other than CO buying 787's that the others did. However, I did say that in the future if AA and DL survive they will purchase the 787 but that is at least a couple of years off in all probabilities. So next time any of you make statements, be careful to read what is written and do not read what is not there!!

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:52 am
by NYC777
If you're talking about the exclusive supplier agreements that they signed in the 1990's..well I'm not sure if those are still in effect as Boeing had to cancel them to get EU approval for the Boeing-McDD merger in 97.

That said AA and DL could still enter into a purchase agreement or put down deposits to secure production slots for the 787 when and if they regain financial health.


RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:58 am
by alb222
Nyc777............thanks for that info..............will have to research that as I was not aware of that inclusion into EU approval.
Either way, hopefully both carriers will see brighter skies in the future and by 2007/2008 be able to purchase the 787.

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:04 am
by bjg231
What about CSA? Do they already have a replacement for their A310s?

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:11 am
by alb222
Nyc777.............I checked out the DL, Boeing agreement. In the 2003 annual, DL stated that they have a marketing agreement to purchase aircraft from Boeing until 2017. Not sure if it is the same thing, but since part of the orders beyond 2007 are for the now defunct 757 and troubled 767, it is conceivable that some of these options be converted to 787. Now please everybody, i am not saying that this is fact, just opinion and possibility.

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:16 am
by iowa744fan
Alb222,

To gain EU approval for the McDonnell Douglas takeover, Boeing had to terminate the exclusive contracts with AA, DL, and CO. However, they just got rid of the written agreement. There is still a sort of gentlemanly agreement between Boeing and them that will still give them beneficial pricing for aircraft. So, in essence, the deal is still going on, there is just no longer any written agreement for it.


I think what Alb222 is saying is that based upon this, if (and likely when) AA and DL are on better footing financially, they will likely purchase the 787. He never said that they would, but the odds would be in favor of them doing so.


Orion737,

Qatar may be small, but when it can be a transit hub along key routes (between Europe, Asia, Africa, and Australia as it is), there is traffic. It has been done before in Hong Kong and Singapore, granted those cities do have a higher population and Hong Kong is a major gateway into China. For a similar comparison, look at Dubai and Emirates. If you think the idea of 30+30 787s for Qatar is extreme, what are your thoughts on the Emirates 43 A380s and 2 A380F order? Basically the same situation.

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:28 am
by RayChuang
I think it's likely the next 787 order could come from Europe. The most likely airline: LH (Lufthansa).

Why LH? Because LH has a rapidly aging fleet of A300B/A310 planes and given that Airbus isn't interested in a true A300B/A310 replacement....

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:37 am
by columba
@Ray

I am hoping desperately for a Lufthansa order. Especially the 787-3 will fit their requirements. But to correct you, LH has no more A310 left, they only classic Airbusses they still have are A300-600s.

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 8:02 am
by A388
Wouldn't a shorter range A350 get Lufthansa's attention? I'm just guessing here, I'm not sure if Airbus will develop a shorter range A350. It would be wise for Airbus to develop and offer a medium range A350 to compete against Boeing's shorter range 787 variant. In any way, I'm glad Boeing is having such a success with their 787, that will be a nice aircraft to see. I also can't wait on Airbus and there proposed A350. This should be the next interesting battle between Boeing and Airbus. I wish both of them good luck  Wink/being sarcastic

A388  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 8:14 am
by FCKC
Interesting question.

Surely next will be ILFC.After ?????????????

Emirates ? Aer Lingus ? Ethiopian ? EL AL ? Kuwait Aw ? Lufthansa ?

In fact all airlines being study this plane and the A350.

Qatar Aw said its decision will be made just before or during the next Paris Air Show in June.

SIA is not ready to place an order for this kind of plane yet.Waiting to see how their load factor will be after the rush of all the start up Asian LCCs

Do not see Air France placing an order in the near future.
CSA will certainly go for the A330 as LOT.

Exciting future..........


RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 8:23 am
by Sjoerd
The most likely airline: LH (Lufthansa).

The B783 is too big for LH, they have between 279 (full economy) and 252 (business + economy) in their A300s. The B7E3 is designed to have 290 seats in a two class lay-out, so even more in 1 class.

The B7E3 is really built for Japan (before the outsourcing of the wing, there was no talk about a short range variant), maybe some other Asian countries will take it, but it is to big for EU and US domestic travel. That's also why Airbus isn't building a short range A350 (too big and too heavy, even more so than the B783).

On the other hand it's LH's only option if it wants to fly more than 190 people in one plane short range. The short range market is becoming more fragmented with all LCCs as well.

Sjoerd

[Edited 2005-01-29 00:27:33]

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 8:32 am
by boeingbus
Watch for the British Airways order... You will see them flying the 787 before the A380...

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 8:36 am
by caribb
Perhaps Air Canada may order the 787 eventually. Iwould fit into their needs better than an A380 and the 767s eventually need replacing.

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 8:43 am
by N1120A
>The B783 is too big for LH, they have between 279 (full economy) and 252 (business + economy) in their A300s. The B7E3 is designed to have 290 seats in a two class lay-out, so even more in 1 class.<

It burns about 30% less fuel, however, and wont require more F/A's with 290 PAX. Also, they could go for the 7E8.

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 9:16 am
by Propulsion

BoeingBus:

I too have wondered about a British Airways order. Will they possibly replace the remaining 767's or will they also eat into A-market 777 territory too?

It would be lovely to see them in the BA livery because the staright top is the closest thing we will ever get to another BA 757-style airplane profile.

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 9:40 am
by Gasman
How many firm 787 orders so far?

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 12:03 pm
by HAWK21M
Why no Indian order so far.[As usual Time delayed].
regds
MEL

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 12:09 pm
by NYC777
Air India is evaluating the 787-800 and a decision (supposedly) is to be made in March.

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:52 pm
by LifelinerOne
I also think that AF might come in with a an order for 10 - 15

Strong rumors here in The Netherlands are that Air France-KLM and NWA are serious looking at the A350 but will not order this year.

I visited Stork yesterday to see the exiting thing called glare and they said it will be used on, and I quote, both variants of the A350.

I didn't asked, but which two variants will the A350 get? A medium-long haul and a short-medium haul plane?

Cheers!

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:51 pm
by DeltaWings
Have their been any B787-9 orders yet? Could the 60 for china maybe contain a 789 order?


The B783 is too big for LH, they have between 279 (full economy) and 252 (business + economy) in their A300s. The B7E3 is designed to have 290 seats in a two class lay-out, so even more in 1 class.

Well, the A300 is designed for 380 passengers in all economy.


~DeltaWings

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:08 pm
by QFA001
Strong rumors here in The Netherlands are that Air France-KLM and NWA are serious looking at the A350 but will not order this year.

Interesting rumour. AF-KL are interested but I think I'm right in saying that Spinetta said that there'd be no A350 or B787 order in 2005. However, NW is at the forefront of a key A350/B787 battle.

I didn't asked, but which two variants will the A350 get? A medium-long haul and a short-medium haul plane?

Where have you been, man? The A350-800 will be based on the A330-200; and the A350-900 will be based on the A330-300.

Have their been any B787-9 orders yet?

Not yet. However, NZ only ordered 2 B787s (and 16 options) because they are more interested in buying the -9 version later on.

Could the 60 for china maybe contain a 789 order?

AFAIK, the deal was done on the grounds that this initial purchase will be for -3s and -8s. Anyhow, nothing that is done now doesn't preclude that airlines may switch their orders to the -9 later on.

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:18 pm
by IAHtown
With relations between AA and Airbus as sour as they are right now, what are the odds that AA will buy any Airbus in the next ten years? They may not have a formal exclusivity agreement with Boeing, but they might as well have one. AA will eventually place an order for the 787, probably when they replace their A300s.

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:24 pm
by LifelinerOne
Where have you been, man? The A350-800 will be based on the A330-200; and the A350-900 will be based on the A330-300.

I've been to London and Stockholm if you really want to know. Big grin

I was rather lazy and didn't bother to take a look at airbus.com.

Interesting rumour. AF-KL are interested but I think I'm right in saying that Spinetta said that there'd be no A350 or B787 order in 2005. However, NW is at the forefront of a key A350/B787 battle.

Yes, you're right. That's why I said the order wouldn't come this year.

Cheers!

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:26 pm
by nrt1011
Let me predict Air Canada for exactly, drum roll please....... ZERO

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:10 am
by ac7e7
Let me predict Air Canada for exactly, drum roll please....... ZERO

Why not? AC will need to replace their ageing 767s with something. They would need at least 45 aircraft. Commonality is out the window when a fleet reaches about 35 aircraft, so who knows if they will order the 787 or A350 in the future.

Just because an airline has some financial problems does not mean they will never be successful again. I recall Continental going through bankruptcy protection TWICE before becoming a respected competitor, so NRT1011, don't make dumb statements like that. You make it sound like the order period for the 787 is only a few years and then its over. Production of the 787/A350 will likely last at least 20 years, I'm sure AC will put in an order for one variant at some point in that time.

-AC7E7

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:21 am
by RayChuang
I sill think LH is interested in the 787-3.

People forget that even with Europe's excellent high-speed train system, it is a pretty big continent and the 783 would be perfect for high-capacity, high-frequency operations from Hamburg, Frankfurt-am-Main, Munich and Berlin to the UK, Spain, southern Italy, eastern Europe and possibly parts of the Middle East. And with the increasing use of landing slot limitations for noise abatement reasons, the only way to increase capacity is with larger planes and the 783 fits the bill for LH.  Smile

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:23 am
by by738
Unlikely to be the next 787 order but I think TUI group must be in the running.

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:27 am
by Rj111
It burns about 30% less fuel, however, and wont require more F/A's with 290 PAX. Also, they could go for the 7E8.

Where on earth are you getting these figure from?

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:36 am
by DeltaWings
Why not? AC will need to replace their ageing 767s with something. They would need at least 45 aircraft. Commonality is out the window when a fleet reaches about 35 aircraft, so who knows if they will order the 787 or A350 in the future.

Okay the 763s could be replaced by the larger A358, but I have a feeling the A358 is a bit to big as 1:1 replacement, but its' all up to AC. Now the A350 is definitely not a 767-200 replacement. It's way to big. That's why I tink the 787 may have a better chance with AC.


~DeltaWings

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:38 am
by kc135topboom
Boeing now has orders for 186 B-787s, with the 60 airplanes China ordered this week. I think that the A-350 may stay as nothing more than a marketing ploy for a while, much like Boeing did with their "offered" B-747-500/600 a few years ago when the A-380 orders started coming in.

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:59 am
by NYC777
I agree, I think the 350 was a minor road bump for 787 sales but when the airlines really compare the two planes (including all the intangibles as well as the tangibles) they'll see that the 787 is a better value with more advance technology.

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 6:07 am
by Rj111
Before we conclude that we should wait for an airline who is actually likely to strongly consider the A350, unlike CO, NH and JL, who've made up 80 of the orders.

The Chinese order started pre-A350 AFAIK.

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 6:24 am
by kalakaua
How likely is Primaris to finalize their order?

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 6:27 am
by PPVRA
Any other charter airline looking into the 787 right now? I would think they would be paying very close attention to it...

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 6:30 am
by JAL
Chinese airlines recently ordered 60 787s, didn't they?

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 6:35 am
by kalakaua
I'm still hoping for Alitalia, but we all know where they are...

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:24 am
by wingman
LH will always find a convenient excuse to not order Boeing passenger aircraft. No stick, too many seats, name starts with a "B", country of origin has a leader whose name starts with "B", windows too big, tires too small, too efficient, too light, cross section not exactly as wide as A300, not made in Toulouse yada yada. You get my drift. LH is like IB, all overtures to Boeing are merely an attempt at humor.

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:02 am
by RayChuang
Wingman,

But in this case LH may not have a choice given that Airbus has pretty much given up on the A300B/A310 market. I still forsee LH buying the 787-3 because it's the perfect plane for high-density/high-frequency intra-European service on longer European routes.

RE: Next Order For The 787?

Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:39 am
by columba
"LH will always find a convenient excuse to not order Boeing passenger aircraft. No stick, too many seats, name starts with a "B", country of origin has a leader whose name starts with "B", windows too big, tires too small, too efficient, too light, cross section not exactly as wide as A300, not made in Toulouse yada yada. You get my drift. LH is like IB, all overtures to Boeing are merely an attempt at humor."

Can you give one example, when Lufthansa "tricked" Boeing. It is in somewhat true that Lufthansa prefers Airbus to some levels, keyword is commonality.
But they are also interested to please both manufacturers.
There were no mayor fleet changes in the past. The last planes required were planes that were already in service or simililar to those which are already in the fleet (A330). So there was no big competition for sure. But there wouldn´t be either if Continental would buy additional 737NGs or 777s.
It was no surprise LH would go for the A340-600 since they are perfectly happy with the A340-300. So there was no need to them to go for the 777-300. You wouldn´t find it unfair if a 777-200 operator would switch to the 777-300 without seeing Airbus. You would find it perfectly fine since they already have the -200 in service. So please measure with the same means before you make such statements.

Lufthansa was interested in the 757-300 by the way. They tested it but the passengers didn´t like it and the turn around would take too long. So it was no game they played with Boeing as they didn´t order it.
The next big order for Lufthansa will be the future 737 replacement. There is a 50 % chance for both Airbus and Boeing of being selected. LH wants no existing model like the A320 or the 737NG. But one with major improvements. I see great chances for Boeing with a 737 based on the 787. Or with their twin aisle patent. The other question is 787 or not, but I still see a great chance for the 787 with Lufthansa.´Same reasons as Rays, so I will not write them again, again and again...