AirWillie6475
Topic Author
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Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:17 pm

I was trying to find a cheap flight from the Los Angeles area to Miami area. As any other person I serched throught the low cost airlines such as JetBlue and Southest. Southwest was automaticaly not ok because I would have to stop in 3 states just to get to miami. JetBlue had a redeye flight for 250 but the rest were 310 with departure times that were not ok for me (6am,7am,midnight arrival).

After being unimpressed by these seemingly lowcost airlines I was surprised to find that Delta,American, and America West had the same or cheaper prices with better flight times and they offer service. Now, I know that Wn and Jetblue are cheaper on shorter flights but is it just me or does the term LowCost means nothing anymore.
 
Newark777
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:28 pm

How far in advance of the flight date are you looking? This has a big impact on the prices. Usually, the LCC start off with lower fares, but as these are bought, the prices are raised as less seats become available and the departure date approaches. Because of this, you will see legacies have lower costs when you look closer to the travel date. Many people just see the LCC fare and buy that, not thinking to look if legacy prices are cheaper.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
AirWillie6475
Topic Author
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:37 pm

I will be going first week of june. I am really interested in Delta or America west as they had the best prices and flight times. I also learned that Delta will be flying out of burbank witch is really convinient for me.
 
[email protected]
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sat Feb 05, 2005 7:54 pm

It is essential that low-cost refers to reduced costs and higher efficiency rather than low-fares. Yes, it is normally possible to get excellent fares, but people perceive low-cost airlines to offer continually low prices - but they do not. It is essential to research fares prior to booking.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
portcolumbus
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:07 pm

These airlines ARE low cost, but that doesn't mean they have to undercut everyone else. They charge what the market will support, they'll just make more money from it than the legacy carriers.
 
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flashmeister
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:12 pm

[email protected] has it right.

Too many times, people think "Low Cost Carrier" equals "Low Price Carrier".

The LCCs charge what the market will bear, just like any other business does. The difference is that the LCCs, on average, make more profit per fare sold than the legacies do.

That's the advantage of being Low Cost. It's the exact same phenomenon at the big-box retailers, Internet commerce, etc.
 
OO-VEG
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:13 pm

LCC are often not that cheap at all. Transavia (former Basiq Air) for instance offers flights from AMS-MAD for €100,- (return excl. taxes). AMS-MAD on KLM starts at €109,- (return excl. taxes).

 
trintocan
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:36 pm

I certainly agree with you all. The low cost airlines are not always that cheap at all. I have been looking at fares to BCN from the UK and found that BA from LGW and even IB from LHR offer lower fares than U2 from BRS. Of course one may say that I am looking at 2 different origins but, after all, the savings made in flying from London more than compensate the cost of getting there and back. Ryanair was the cheapest but going from as far away as STN all the way to Girona (or wherever it is they call Barcelona) then trekking across to the city seems utterly pointless.

To get the lowest fares one should book well in advance and catch the special offers as they open. In that regard the traditional carriers are more consistent as their fare plans are more stable.

TrintoCan.
Hop to it, fly for life!
 
SMcC
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sun Feb 06, 2005 12:01 am

The low cost in "LCC" is the cost for the airline's operation not the ticket price.
 
RNOcommctr
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sun Feb 06, 2005 12:12 am

AA has some unbelievably low fares right now. I am going RNO-BWI (or possibly DCA or IAD) in May, and AA can get me there round-trip for $218. Of course, I doubt fares like that are helping AA's bottom line much...
Active loading only, ma'am, keep it moving!
 
boeingpride800
Posts: 391
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sun Feb 06, 2005 12:39 am

jetBlue has gone up a lot. My friend wanted to fly to Tampa in February and it was like 476$! And he was going to book it in December, 2 months before.
 
FLY2LIM
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sun Feb 06, 2005 12:50 am

Let me get this right. You found tickets from Los Angeles to Miami areas in the $250 range (I will assume that they were round trip tickets - "return" for our European a.nutters) for a transcontinental flight of over 5 hours each way, and you found those to be expensive? How much were you planning to spend? I know that AA loses money with that fare as it is. You want to pay $30 dollars r/t for that flight?
One thing is to say that LCCs are not low cost (I agree with everyone that the title says more about their operations than their prices) but another is to expect unreasonable fares.
To me, flying r/t to MIA (from SFO, same thing) with my family of 4 for $1000 is a deal.
I guess it's a matter of opinions.
The lowest published fare I have ever seen on JB is $199 r/t from OAK to FLL (via LGB, I believe), and that was a few years ago.
FLY2LIM
Faucett. La primera linea aerea del Peru.
 
Cactus739
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:24 am

Something doesn't add up..... and not just the "low cost should equal low fare".

1. Southwest doesn't fly to Miami, gotta use Ft. Lauderdale.

2. Southwest's schedule isn't open past June 6th for booking so you'd have to return home by the 6th to get a price from them.

3. For giggles I tried booking Southwest from LAX-FLL, departing on June 1 and returning on June 6th. On the 1st, I picked flight 2147 and only had one stop (not three states). On the 6th, I picked flight 299 (only one stop, again not three states) and got a total of $278.,

4. For giggles, I tried booking America West from BUR-MIA (since you said BUR is closer) on the same dates and got a total of $347.

Interesting.... what a little research can do...  Smile
You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
 
OE-LDA
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:41 am


One comment to the example with Transavia (EUR 100) and KLM (EUR 109): Without the competition of Transavia KLM would be charging much more for this ticket. There were times when you could not buy a same-day return ticket from Austria to Germany on OS or LH for less than 700 Euro. Now with the competition of AB they offer tickets for 190 (including tax). Of course those tickets are not always available, but quite often they are.

Regards, OE-LDA

I am totally missing basics and clueless about airline flying!
 
N863DA
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:37 am

Time and time again, this comes up. It would seem that some people on this board have no idea of market effect, competitive response, and just plain ole business sense.

The issue here is not whether, in any specific route combination, the LCCs are cheaper. They bring low fares (not necessarily the lowest) to the markets that they serve.

However, the legacy airlines (non-LCCs) choose, in good business fashion, to match or undercut these, "low" fares. However, they would not have done this without the presence of the low-cost carriers.

What people MUST understand is that, without LCCs such as Southwest, they'd be paying three or four times as much for their ticket from Point A to Point B. However, with LCCs present in the market, average fares fall.

Low-cost carriers are typically very good value (in Southwest's case, for example, they have price caps - no one-way fare is over $399, no return over $798). However, it does happen that the legacies will undercut fares and sell one or two (or heck, even a whole fare class bucket) below that which the low-cost carriers are charging.

However, thank your lucky stars that these LCCs exist, so that the legacies DO lower their fares. Without 'em, you'd be looking at three or more times the fare price.

In an extended definition, this is also a result of the, "network effect."

FLY DELTA JETS



N 8 6 3 D A

[Edited 2005-02-05 19:39:06]
 
sccutler
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:43 am

This comes up again and again. It feels like teaching algebra to cats.

Here's a post from just a few days ago, illustrative (I wrote it on 2/2).

Low cost carriers are rarely the cheapest between city pairs on which they compete with legacy carriers. What they do, however, is bring consistently rational - reasonable and sustainable - fares to those markets. Absent the mere presence of the LCC in the market, the low fares simply do not exist, or (at best) only exist in very limited numbers, for long-lead advance purchase travelers (i.e., no use at all to business travelers).

I can always count on my two hometown airlines to provide the perfect example, and today is no different.

Compare two city pairs of essentially identical distance- Austin to San Diego and DFW to San Diego.

Say I need to fly tomorrow to SAN, returning on Saturday the 5th.

From DFW, AA says I have to pay $1,018.40 to fly non-stop, round trip, using their exquisite LRTC (Less Room Throughout Coach) product. If I am willing to change planes at LAX (and lose an axtra 2+ hours each way), the fare "drops" to $758.80. Oy vey, such a deal. But that's the cost of last-minute travel, right?

But wait a minute.

If I am flying AUS to SAN, AA will take me round-trip for only $417.80... and I'll be traveling via DFW, and sitting in the same airplane as the poor schmuck who was forced to pay $1,018.40 RT.

Why so much cheaper, even though they are taking me (1) on more airplanes for a longer distance, and (2) on the same precise planes that cost so much if you originate and destinate at DFW?

Because WN can sell you a ticket on that city pair, and they will. WN's fare? $460.00. Not cheaper than AA. But you can bet that AA's fare would not be anywhere near that low, if they did not have a rational fare competitor on the pair.

If it's my money, I'll take the Southwest flight. Besides a roomier and better-appointed interior, I'll be treated with respect, all the way around. I'll earn free travel with RR points a lot faster. And, I'll do less to support the fare-gouging predators of the market. WN does not gouge, even when they are the sole choice. That's respect, business maturity, corporate character.

Dynamics like this are the reason Southwest (and carriers like them, though there really aren't any quite like them just now) is so popular with business travelers.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
srbmod
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sun Feb 06, 2005 4:25 am

A quick search on SideStep (If you're looking for the lowest fares, room rates, and rental cars, I suggest downloading it), I've found a CO flight from SNA-PBI (via IAH) and PBI-SNA (via EWR) for $227.80.
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sun Feb 06, 2005 6:37 am

Time and time again, this comes up. It would seem that some people on this board have no idea of market effect, competitive response, and just plain ole business sense.

Well said! I'm sure (not!) that the LCCs shudder in fear and trepidation (not!) that the "secret" that their fares are not always the lowest will be exposed every time (as in virtually every day) this discussed-to-death topic resurfaces. Why should they charge the same absurd loss-leader fares as the legacies when they don't need to in order to book enough pax at fares high enough to exceed their cost of doing business. I'm sure the LCCs are feeling the pain (of their "secret" being exposed) -- all the way to the bank -- every time this worn-out topic comes up again (and again and again and again and.......)


[Edited 2005-02-05 22:40:08]
 
delta-flyer
Posts: 2631
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sun Feb 06, 2005 6:47 am

"Low cost" airlines are truly low cost, but not necessarily "Low Price". They charge market price, but because of their low cost, they make money while the network carriers lose at the same and higher fares.

As an exercise, compare the yield per revenue passenger mile on WN and DL, then compare their costs per availale seat mile. You will find their yields are almost the same, while their costs are very different - WN is about 20% lower.

Cheers,
Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
EGFF
Posts: 2082
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sun Feb 06, 2005 7:06 am

I have to agree with you here as i have recently been checking prices with ryanair, easyjet and bmibaby for a cheap flight at the end of march, seemingly the prices seem to be soaring to what they used to be, with bmibaby proving to be the stinger.

Shaun ...
All together or not at all
 
AirWillie6475
Topic Author
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:45 pm

RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sun Feb 06, 2005 7:21 am

Just to answer some questions. I will be flying to Ft. Lauderdale. I didn't want the 250 r/t price for jetblue because it was an early morining arrival. The others were 219 each way with stops in NY or Dulles witch don't make sense in my case. Southwest was 278rt but so what, Delta was 298rt and American was 208rt and they offer service and aa was nonstop.
 
NWDC10
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sun Feb 06, 2005 7:45 am

If i can post this airline ticket search engine. It helps find fares fast. Robert NWDC10 farechase.yahoo.com
 
NWDC10
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Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 10:15 am

RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:01 am

AirWillie, i hope the link helps you. I use it alot to look up the price of air fares. Robert NWDC10
 
flyorski
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:55 am

I have noticed this in the past as well.

I have always found that "legacy" carriers are the same price if not cheaper.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:09 am

Well said! I'm sure (not!) that the LCCs shudder in fear and trepidation (not!) that the "secret" that their fares are not always the lowest will be exposed every time (as in virtually every day) this discussed-to-death topic resurfaces

Actually, some of the LCC's are extremely afraid of this. Why do you think WN doesn't publish fares on Orbitz, Travelocity, Expedia, etc? WN doesn't want consumers to see the fares compared side by side. Particularly for advanced purchase tickets, WN is rarely the lowest.

WN has done an amazing job of tricking consumers into thinking they are getting the lowest fares. Many people book WN assuming they are the lowest without shopping around.

I give WN's management a lot of credit for this. They have built up a level of blind loyalty that serves them well.
 
NWDC10
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:17 am

It does "pay to shop around" though. Sometimes i am suprised (at airfare prices), other times i'm not. Robert NWDC10
 
Shamrock_747
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sun Feb 06, 2005 10:53 am

In Europe it is common to find quality airlines such as BA and BD with lower fares than the likes of FR and U2, particularly close to the time of departure. Full service carriers have pax with flexible economy and business class tickets which allow heavily discounted non-changeable non-refundable fares to be offered.
 
nwa330tony
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 8:34 pm

RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:34 pm

Any time i fly i always check with jetblue as my first choice i mean why not save money right! but its always the same result, i search andfind that the lowst fare is on one of the major carrier. and 9out of 10 NWA is within the the same price range so i end up going on them. But it is surprising that airlines such as B6 and WN are the low cost carriers but that never seems to be the case. also i always do my planning atleast 2-3 months in advance so time is not a factor, the same notice for all and still high prices
 
LRGT
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:55 pm

JetBlue fares have NOT really gone up at all since they started...may dates on their longest flight (BOS-OAK) are $79 each-way plus tax.
Don't bring up the NW DC9's unless you have to!
 
notbluejet
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:00 am

RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Sun Feb 06, 2005 2:38 pm

key with many jetblue and sw flights is jumping on the fare deals. But ofcourse these are only available to the first group. Profits would be slim if you stick 150 people on a plane at 89 dollars a peice. Prices rise and fall.

many people dont realize if you push your trip one day ahead/behind it may mean a 100+ dollar difference. Even different flight times. Thats why you need to shop around.

On the business end of it when delta and jetblue are both offereing a 300 R/T fare jb is probably putting alot more of that fare in its pocket.
 
NWDC10
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:17 am

When would be the best time to purchase an airline ticket? In advance and just before midnight? Robert NWDC10
 
NWDC10
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Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 10:15 am

RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:50 am

AirWillie, i forgot to mention that farechase.yahoo.com is constantly updated too. Robert NWDC10
 
AirWillie6475
Topic Author
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:45 pm

RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:16 pm

"What people MUST understand is that, without LCCs such as Southwest, they'd be paying three or four times as much for their ticket from Point A to Point B. However, with LCCs present in the market, average fares fall."

Thank god for Southwest even though I wouldn't fly them.
 
sccutler
Posts: 5835
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:35 pm

Thank god for Southwest even though I wouldn't fly them.

An understandable (though misguided) expression from one whose life experience has not included months of tightly-scheduled business travel.

Adults who fly for business usually recognize the inherent value of Southwest's superior service and unmatched reliablity. Business sense also tells one that, if a benefit exists because of a particular company's presence in the marketplace, one does well to patronize that company.

I sometimes have to settle for a second-tier carrier like AA... but not without great effort to avoid it. The added cost, and the substantial delay associated with using DFW as opposed to DAL, ensure that my AA forays are typically limited to long-lead vacation travel, when they can be fare competetive. Occasionally.

First choice: Fly myself.
Second choice: fly WN.
Third choice: settle for something less.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
Airlinerfreak
Posts: 1246
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 4:16 am

RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:37 pm

The Low Cost Airlines are only Low Cost if you know when you are traveling way in advance. If it is under two weeks you are going to be paying a lot or not getting the flight times you want.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:23 pm

SCCutler.....I don't find AA as bad as you claim, considering I fly them every 2 weeks (every three weeks max), I have yet to run into any trouble with them (of course I hope I don't jinx myself this Friday..lol).....that being said, I've flown to and out of DFW, but have not used it as a transit airport which I will be this Friday (SFO-DFW-PHL)...lets see how it goes......

That being said, I've flown WN, and while the service itself wasn't bad, I can't say I'm going to use them all too often, even if it means paying a little extra. Being an AAdvantage member has LOTS of benefits, especially when choosing seats, check in lines and boarding services, I've flown AirTran before, and I can honestly say that it will take A LOT for me to fly them again.....

I've flown ATA a bunch of times (even in the mid 90's when they were considered "American Trash Air"), they are a VERY GOOD LCC.....their service is very good and efficient and the 757's and especially the new 737's are awesome!
"Up the Irons!"
 
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ramprat74
Posts: 1355
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:09 pm

No wonder I will be out of a job any day now. When a person complains about a $250.00 RT ticket from LAX-MIA. I know now airlines can never raise fares to compensate for the higher fuel, labor and leases when you have people like this shopping for fares. Everybody wants everything for dirt cheap these days.  Yeah sure
 
AirWillie6475
Topic Author
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:45 pm

RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:34 pm

RampRat74

If your read my other response youd know that I wasn't complaining about the price I was complaining about the flight time associated with the price.
 
AirWillie6475
Topic Author
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:45 pm

RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:38 pm

Why should I pay 450 on jetblue flight that cost 250 on another timeslot that was inconvinient for me.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26531
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:43 pm

>A quick search on SideStep (If you're looking for the lowest fares, room rates, and rental cars, I suggest downloading it), I've found a CO flight from SNA-PBI (via IAH) and PBI-SNA (via EWR) for $227.80.<

If he said BUR was good for him, then SNA is not good for him. Also, SideStep no longer shows the fares for WN.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:50 pm

RampRat74....on my previous comment, I wrote that I would not mind paying a little extra for my flights.....

Yesterday, I was planning on flying from SFO-ORD-SFO from 02-18-05 to 02-22-05. I fly 90% of my flights on AA, but the fare on AA is $324.40 and on ATA from SFO-MDW is only $176.40!!!

Even though my family lives on the north side, which is a minor inconvenience to fly into MDW, the fare difference is HUGE....I wouldn't mind paying an extra $40-$50 more (heck, I've even paid $60 more on a bunch of AA flights) to fly on AA (which most wouldn't do), but DOUBLE the price difference????

Actually it happened to me once over the summer where I needed to fly from San Francisco to Chicago on the last minute.... AA was charging me $1046 while I flew on ATA for $192!!!....Now you tell me..what would you do or have done?????  Confused
"Up the Irons!"
 
sccutler
Posts: 5835
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:26 am

Jacobin, I was not really teeing off on AA's service, which I have always found to be quite good (except that one time when they cancelled a flight, did not contact me, and left my family and me stranded at SNA, but that was one-timer, hardly a reason to place a pox on 'em). I have found most of their ground and flight operations people to be very good.

My beef with AA is their stunningly and obviously confiscatory pricing out of their DFW hub.

Even where WN has market dominance, they do not gouge. That, again, is respect.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
NWDC10
Posts: 904
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RE: Low Cost Airlines, Not So Low Cost

Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:51 pm

Just fly the "Lowest Non-Stop Flight". (Just a little advice). Robert NWDC10

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