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bennett123
Posts: 10078
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Branson' And US Airways

Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:00 pm


You signed Bermuda II, nobody put a gun to your head. What you are saying is that a country that has only 1 carrier flying into LHR should lose it and the USA gets three.

The point about slots only makes sense if you are flying into LHR and then flying on to somewhere else. If you are flying to London, then there is little to choose between LHR and LGW. Even STN has a train link to central London.

Besides, part of LGW's decline is down to BA. Why not ask for rights to fly into LGW and then on to other destinations.
 
avek00
Posts: 3254
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: Branson' And US Airways

Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:18 pm

"What you are saying is that a country that has only 1 carrier flying into LHR should lose it and the USA gets three."

No, what I am saying is let market forces determine who gets slots into LHR vice an arcane treaty designed to protect British Airways (and to a lesser extent, Virgin Atlantic). If CO can financially persuade an Air Kookamonga to part with its LHR slots, why should it then not be allowed to offer EWR/IAH/CLE-LHR?

"The point about slots only makes sense if you are flying into LHR and then flying on to somewhere else."

Completely untrue - LHR is a MASSIVE O&D international operation unto itself - that's why it's so lucrative and desired.

"If you are flying to London, then there is little to choose between LHR and LGW. Even STN has a train link to central London."

Surely you jest about the differences in connectivity between LHR and the other airports - LHR has the best links to the city, hands down.

Feel free to keep digging yourself in a hole though.
Live life to the fullest.
 
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zippyjet
Posts: 5113
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RE: Branson' And US Airways

Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:54 pm

I wish US all the luck. However, if the huckster of rock stars and the fast lane crowd, and he has some control, then on come the gimmicks. Such as cold storage for stiffs (corpses), and an influx of young buxom and buff employees. Hopefully all this won't still cause anguish and unemployment for current US employees. Maybe the name of the airline will change to Lollapalooza, like those big free for all bacchanalia of sex drugs and rock and roll back in the 90's and early 2000's.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

http://altmusic.about.com/library/special/bl_lollapalooza.htm
I'm Zippyjet & I approve this message!
 
bennett123
Posts: 10078
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RE: Branson' And US Airways

Thu Feb 10, 2005 9:42 pm

Avek00

How about removing the "Non US owwnership" rules on airlines and let the market decide.
 
supa7E7
Posts: 1360
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:05 am

RE: Branson' And US Airways

Thu Feb 10, 2005 9:52 pm

Let the market decide???

How about letting the USA buy your television and radio spectra? We would be happy to let our media conglomerates saturate you with marketing and propaganda... Point is, there are all kinds of reasons for national ownership rules. Nations can redistribute wealth internally, but they rarely do internationally. That means countries need to be vigilant that businesses are operating to benefit that country... otherwise there's no point to having them. My 2 cents.

[Edited 2005-02-10 13:54:25]
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
bennett123
Posts: 10078
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RE: Branson' And US Airways

Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:00 pm

I thought that they did already already.
 
UAMAYBACH1239
Posts: 213
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:46 am

RE: Branson' And US Airways

Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:11 pm

Petazulu

Branson could also make suggestions or requests and actually have US to make the layoffs or reduction in the fleet before making the purchase, and actually not end up in all the mess of the struggling airline.
a/c flown 737-222/322/522 757/747-1-2-4, 767-2-3, 777-2-3, A319-20, DC10-10-30, L1011-3-5, 727-222adv, MD85-90 flyourfri
 
avek00
Posts: 3254
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: Branson' And US Airways

Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:28 pm

"Avek00

How about removing the "Non US owwnership" rules on airlines and let the market decide."

Like I've said already, I'm all for it once the UK allows the market to decide who flies to Heathrow.
Live life to the fullest.
 
avek00
Posts: 3254
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: Branson' And US Airways

Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:35 pm

"Let the market decide???

How about letting the USA buy your television and radio spectra? We would be happy to let our media conglomerates saturate you with marketing and propaganda... Point is, there are all kinds of reasons for national ownership rules. Nations can redistribute wealth internally, but they rarely do internationally. That means countries need to be vigilant that businesses are operating to benefit that country... otherwise there's no point to having them. My 2 cents."

You make a very valid point.

In this case, I'm not even asking that US entities be allowed to invest into British carriers - all I'm asking for is unrestricted access by US-flag airlines to all UK airports. When the UK agrees to the same Open Skies access that France, Germany, the Netherlands, Singapore, Italy, Spain, Canada, etc. permit, Branson can come in and fcuk up as many US airlines as he wants to. I'm normally the last person to call for government protectionism, but even I have to draw the line somewhere, and that line rests on linking the ability of US carriers to fly internationally to a country's airports with allowing the other country to become involved in the domestic US aviation market.
Live life to the fullest.
 
Delta777Jet
Posts: 1461
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2000 6:19 am

RE: Branson' And US Airways

Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:44 pm

Looks like we are getting a new airline here:

Virgin US Airways

Hub Cities: PHL CLT SFO (and maybe FLL or STL?)
All Aírbus Fleet of A-319/320/321/332/333/346/380!
Shouldn`t Virgin also buy out British Midland so they have Europe and
the US covered?

I still miss Trans World Airlines and the L-1011
 
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william
Posts: 3350
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

RE: Branson' And US Airways

Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:06 pm

I find it funny,how everyone does not want to talk about SWA role in this. They will make sure this STAYS a rumor.
 
rwylie77
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: Branson' And US Airways

Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:37 pm

I can see Richard Branson buy assets from US Air, but not the company...why on earth would he take on debts, disruptive staff and all the other problems when he can start from scratch with a clean slate? There is absolutely no way he will buy the airline...maybe some slots, personnel and aircraft, but that is it.

It does amuse me though when all the Americans on this site say they don't want foreigners from profiting from buying an American airline!! Don't you mean you don't want foreigners to help subsidize the losses and prevent further job losses?!

I think too much is also being made of Bermuda II...BMI are desperate to fly from Heathrow across the pond but are unable to do so even though they have the slots, so the agreement is more about protecting the four airlines (2 UK, 2 American) in the agreement rather than the UK...?
 
747firstclass
Posts: 821
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 2:45 pm

RE: Branson' And US Airways

Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:40 pm

William

You are absolutely correct. Also, keep in mind that they are based in the same state that Bush is from and the same state that AA and CO are based. AA would love to be able to move their LGW-DFW flight to operate to LHR and of course CO would love to be able to foperate to and from LHR.

On another front, Congress is all taken up with Social security change etc and that is a major topic involving major change. Thus it seems highly unlikely or closer to remote that they would consider another issue involving major change at the same time. Unless, of course, the UK etc opened LHR to all US carriers .
 
scotron11
Posts: 1432
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:54 pm

RE: Branson' And US Airways

Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:49 pm

I think the following explains why there has no new agreement since Bermuda II. It is high time both sides sat down and hammered out some sort of compromise to end it.(Apologies if it is a little "long").

Although negotiations have been going on for five years by the end of 2004 the USA and UK had failed to reach any agreement on ‘open skies'.

Extracts from the evidence given to a US Congressional Committee in 1999 give some idea of the conflicting views held by these two States :-
(quoted from US evidence)

"The United Kingdom is the United States' second largest international passenger market with 17.2 million passengers in the 12 months ending May 1999 and is the second largest international cargo market for the US

"Prior to 1976, the bilateral agreement between the US and the UK was a relatively open one. However, in that year, the British renounced the bilateral. When a new one (known as Bermuda II) was negotiated a few years later, it was much more restrictive. Bermuda II is the most restrictive agreement negotiated with a developed aviation partner. For passenger services, the Agreement restricts access to Heathrow, London's preferred airport, to two US airlines. Bermuda II also limits US cities eligible for nonstop service to London; and caps entry in most markets at one US and one UK airline.
"Prior to Bermuda II, US airlines carried 59% of the passengers between the US and UK Since Bermuda II, US airline passenger market share has dropped dramatically and now stands at 37%. Currently, British Airways alone carries a higher percentage of passengers (41%) than all the US airlines combined. British carriers combined control over 59% of this market. For the 12 months preceding June 1999, British carriers flew 10.5 million passengers in the US-UK market, while US carriers only flew 6.5 million passengers. This is consistent with the 123,000 seats offered weekly in this market by British carriers compared to the less than 90,000 seats offered by US carriers.

"Under Bermuda II, service to London is restricted in that US carriers can only operate to London from a limited number of specified US gateways. British Airways alone serves 21 US airports nonstop to and from London. All US carriers combined serve only 19 US airports nonstop to and from London. In addition, British Airways operates 9 monopoly routes to and from London.
"The major point of contention between the US and the UK involves access to Heathrow Airport. There are two airports that can be flown into when flying to London: Heathrow and Gatwick. In the US-UK market, approximately 66% of the passengers use Heathrow as their primary gateway. Currently only 2 U.S. carriers (United and American) can fly into Heathrow."

In reply to the US government the UK Statement contained the following rebuttal :
( quoted from the evidence)

" The UK Government is firmly committed to liberalising air services between the United Kingdom and the United States. Throughout recent negotiations on the revision of the Bermuda II agreement we have made it clear that we are willing to envisage a wide-ranging liberalisation that would open up the market to more carriers from both sides and increase competition to the benefit of consumers – but only on a balanced basis that will provide equal opportunities for UK carriers as well as US ones. We are not willing to accept proposals that would put UK carriers at a competitive disadvantage with others.

"The domestic market for UK carriers is effectively the whole of the European Economic Area (the 15 Member States of the European Union and Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway). The US Government's "Open Skies" proposals would give US carriers access to that domestic market while denying access to the US domestic market to UK carriers. On transatlantic routes US carriers have the advantage of access to feed traffic from a large domestic market, while UK carriers are at a competitive disadvantage at US hub airports where a very large proportion of traffic is carried by a single US carrier (a larger proportion in many cases than any UK carrier has at any UK airport)."................

...... ."If US carriers are to get unrestricted entry into the UK's international and intra-European market, UK carriers need effective access to the US domestic market to provide a fair competitive balance. In negotiations throughout the 1990s the UK Government has put forward a number of options for achieving this and thereby allowing a wide-ranging, balanced, liberalisation of UK-US air services to the benefit of both consumers and carriers:

(a) alliances, such as that proposed between British Airways and American Airlines;

(b) a liberalised inward investment regime, which would allow UK carriers to buy a controlling interest in a US carrier (foreign ownership is currently limited to 25%);

(c) a grant of cabotage rights . "


THE U.S. USE OF "CABOTAGE" TO PREVENT FOREIGN ACCESS TO ITS VAST INTERNAL MARKET

About 75% of the US airline industry ‘s revenue comes from passengers and about 15% from freight, of which the largest contributor is the US Postal Service; and 10% from other sources. Of the passenger revenue nearly 80% is currently derived from domestic traffic and only 20% from international traffic. Retention of this vast domestic ‘cabotage' market exclusively to US operators is jealously guarded by the US government.

14.2. Whilst the US wishes to freely operate between European States on the basis of unfettered fifth freedom rights through "Open Skies" type bilaterals it appears so far that it has not been prepared to relinquish its own "Cabotage" rights, in respect of the USA, gained from the Chicago Convention. In respect of the component States of the USA, Air Pacific (a Fiji carrier), under this policy, when operating a route such as Nadi - Honolulu - Los Angeles - New York would be unlikely to be given the privilege to pick up passengers originating in Honolulu for either Los Angeles or New York. Hardly "open skies".

Some States which have negotiated "open sky" type agreements at the present time either have no or insignificant services into the USA.

So far most ‘open skies' agreements have generally incorporated unrestricted rights for both US and bilateral partner carriers to operate between the two countries, including to intermediate and beyond points. However, they have not included cabotage rights, have not relaxed the limits on foreign ownership of US carriers and have not provided the right of the establishment of services by foreign airlines within the United States. Nor have they removed the advantages conferred on US carriers by virtue of the ‘Fly America' policy, one which generally requires persons travelling on US government related journeys to fly on US airlines
 
USairways16BWI
Posts: 921
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 4:58 am

RE: Branson' And US Airways

Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:10 am

if this really does actually happen....will it still be called USAirways? will the planes still be in the dark blue US livery? i hope so.
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: Branson' And US Airways

Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:10 am

Oooh, oooh, can the distinguished representative from Florida have a turn?

We are not asking for rights between, say, London-Heathrow and Frankfurt. What we are asking for, however, is for our carriers, aside from American and United, to be allowed access to Heathrow. We would be more than happy to, if we scrapped Bermuda II and replaced it with an Open Skies agreement, put a clause in that says we cannnot fly between London and states within the European Economic Area. Forcing US carriers, other than American and United, to use Gatwick would be a lot like if we said that only Virgin Atlantic could use either New York-Kennedy or Newark, requiring British Airways and British Midland to use Stewart Field in Newburgh instead. Somehow, I can't help but think that British Airways would be furious if we did this.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
bennett123
Posts: 10078
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Branson' And US Airways

Fri Feb 11, 2005 2:17 am

So the idea is we allow US carriers to buy up slots at LHR, and you let us buy US Airways?.

Most US and European carriers make big profits on long haul routes, and it is reasonable to think that any US carrier buying slots at LHR would make a lot of money.

US Airways is in Chapter 11, and may not survive the year, it is focussed
on US domestic services particularly in the NE and faces considerable competition from the other legacy carriers plus established LCC's.

Not only that, but it has spent the last few years developing a rescue package largely by cutting staff salaries. To the best of my knowledge, no US investor or airline is interested in buying US.

Any government that traded access to LHR for the right to buy US Airways would need it's head examined.
 
avek00
Posts: 3254
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: Branson' And US Airways

Fri Feb 11, 2005 4:30 am

"Any government that traded access to LHR for the right to buy US Airways would need it's head examined."

And conversely, any government that would let a foreign country into its domestic aviation market without that foreign country granting Open Skies for *international* flights needs to be thrown out of power. Hence, Branson will continue to be barred from controlling a US airline, and he can go cry on the steps of 10 Downing Street if he has a problem with that.

[Edited 2005-02-10 20:35:18]
Live life to the fullest.
 
US A333 PIT
Posts: 308
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2001 8:36 am

RE: Branson' And US Airways

Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:08 am

This is purely a rumour. Before anyone makes anything of this I suggest providing a little more solid evidence, than "I heard from an unreliable source that...". This just get's people excited for nothing and I for one find this very hard to believe. Lets face it, Pilots are the kings of starting rumours.

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