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JoKeR
Topic Author
Posts: 1851
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:34 pm

JAT Axes Beirut, To Start Kuwait Flights

Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:27 am

After a tradition of serving BEY for many years (with brief breaks due to wars and sanctions), JAT will axe this beautiful city as from March 27th (Summer Timetable). Very sad  Sad

On a positive note, Kuwait is being activated after many years, being linked to the successful Dubai run. So with the Summer Timetable, all Dubai flights will be via KWI.

Still waiting to hear of further developments re. Summer Timetable.
 
yegbey01
Posts: 1370
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RE: JAT Axes Beirut, To Start Kuwait Flights

Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:37 am

JoKeR,

Any reasons for axing BEY.....Will they have fifth freedom on the KWI-DXB???

This is quite sad indeed. JAT has always offered a cheaper alternaive to Europe and to DXB from BEY.
 
RJ100
Posts: 3904
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RE: JAT Axes Beirut, To Start Kuwait Flights

Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:40 am

Other news is that Belgrade-Basel will see a third weekly flight.  Smile

Regards,
RJ100
none
 
JoKeR
Topic Author
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RE: JAT Axes Beirut, To Start Kuwait Flights

Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:46 am

Yegbey01,

From what I've heard, JAT's primary traffic to this part of the Mediterranean are services to LCA, TLV and DAM. Beirut, although successful in the peak months, was a poor performer the rest of the year so the reason is definitely economical.

With regards to KWI services, with the reconstruction of Iraq and rather large involvement of Serbian Construction Companies on projects in Kuwait, it was just a matter of time before KWI was activated, though I must say I always thought they would keep BEY as a "shuttle" from Belgrade.

I'm not sure about fifth freedom rights, but I've got a strong feeling Kuwait may have well granted them in order to boost traffic activity. I'm sure JAT asked for them!
 
JoKeR
Topic Author
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RE: JAT Axes Beirut, To Start Kuwait Flights

Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:51 am

RJ100,

Basel is really turning out well for JAT, I would not be surprised to see even more than three frequencies in addition to charters from MLH to INI during summer months.

Very curious to find out if GVA will be started anytime soon?
 
RJ100
Posts: 3904
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: JAT Axes Beirut, To Start Kuwait Flights

Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:57 am

Yeah its good to see the flights going well.

Haven't heard something about GVA in recent times...

Regards,
RJ100
none
 
DIJKKIJK
Posts: 1875
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RE: JAT Axes Beirut, To Start Kuwait Flights

Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:17 am

Kuwait is being activated after many years, being linked to the successful Dubai run. So with the Summer Timetable, all Dubai flights will be via KWI.


Any idea what aircraft type will be used? Will they be using their DC10 on this route ?

KWI and DXB are good destinations for JAT. There are a lot of expatriate workers from the former Yugoslavia in the gulf.
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
JU101
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RE: JAT Axes Beirut, To Start Kuwait Flights

Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:32 am

Its too bad that Beirut is being dropped, but I will give the management recognition for putting money before prestige. JAT has serviced Lebanon for decades, so it will be a shame when direct flights between the two countries are cancelled. My two cents tells me that the airline will eventually resume flights to BEY through LCA with 737s, or alternatively have a direct service with new EMB-170s, if we get them!

In the meantime, adding Kuwait to the list of destinations sounds like a good idea. Next to the business done with Kuwait, I am certain that the destination is being utilized for travelers that are destined for Southern Iraq as well.
 
JoKeR
Topic Author
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RE: JAT Axes Beirut, To Start Kuwait Flights

Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:33 am

DIJKKIJK,

It is scheduled to be a 733 with occasional 734 deployments.

With regards to the DC-10, it is now long-gone from scheduled JAT services; and now mainly used for charters and wet-leases but even that will end as the aircraft will be completely withdrawn from service. Man I will miss that majestic airliner, I hope JU donate it to the excellent Aviation Museum in Belgrade.
 
wassch71
Posts: 199
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RE: JAT Axes Beirut, To Start Kuwait Flights

Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:13 am

I am very sad that JAT will drop Beirut, they've been here on and off since the sixties. But in this critical period with the strikes and everything, they definitely are right in focusing on the most profitable routes. Do they still codeshare with Uzbekistan on the Belgrade-JFK route? There is a huge and prosperous Serbian community in New York, are they planning to resume flights to the US soon?

Regards
MEA...Like No Other
 
BA
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RE: JAT Axes Beirut, To Start Kuwait Flights

Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:42 am

BEY is not being axed. It's being re-routed.

Instead of BEG-BEY-DXB-BEY-BEG, it will become BEG-BEY-DAM-BEG.

So I repeat, BEY is not being axed.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
yegbey01
Posts: 1370
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:04 am

RE: JAT Axes Beirut, To Start Kuwait Flights

Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:37 am

BA, any info about frequency? and whether the change is permanent?
 
JoKeR
Topic Author
Posts: 1851
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:34 pm

RE: JAT Axes Beirut, To Start Kuwait Flights

Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:40 am

Wassch71,

JAT has not been code-sharing with Uzbekistan for roughly half a year now.

BA,

I really hope you are right, but my source is quite informed and has been correct in the past. Hope he is wrong this time 'round though  Smile

If you are referring to flight no. JU 064, it is still not confirmed.
 
JoKeR
Topic Author
Posts: 1851
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:34 pm

RE: JAT Axes Beirut, To Start Kuwait Flights

Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:59 am

BA,

You really got me excited now, I SMSed two JAT "guys" now to see if any further info, oh boy are they gonna @#$%&% at me Big grin
 
BA
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RE: JAT Axes Beirut, To Start Kuwait Flights

Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:59 am

Yegbey01,

It is 2x weekly and it is showing it's permanent.

JoKeR,

It is already uploaded in the CRS and one can book the flight.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
JoKeR
Topic Author
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RE: JAT Keeps Beirut, To Start Kuwait Flights

Mon Feb 14, 2005 7:04 am

Haha, now here is an answer I did not expect... well some parts of it (translate)

You are a freak texting me at this time of evening, BEY wise yeah, maybe, if JAT lives until March, who knows

BA, it looks as if you were right...

[Edited 2005-02-13 23:06:00]
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8880
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RE: JAT Axes Beirut, To Start Kuwait Flights

Mon Feb 14, 2005 7:07 am

Combining Beirut and Damascus is a pretty good move, those two cities are so close that it only takes an extra 30 minutes plus the hour (or less) groundtime at the extra city. So two international destinations in two different countries, with only an extra hour and a half of aircraft / crew utilisation.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
JoKeR
Topic Author
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RE: JAT Axes Beirut, To Start Kuwait Flights

Mon Feb 14, 2005 7:11 am

Cedarjet,

What is the flying time between the two cities. I heard before that the cruising altitude is something ridiculously low due to distance?

Do you know of any other carrier who does a similar routing (combining BEY and DAM)?
 
Aleksandar
Posts: 2941
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2000 11:43 pm

RE: JAT Axes Beirut, To Start Kuwait Flights

Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:17 pm

Well, at first, I was really disappointed. JAT should keep its position in Beirut. Yet, it was not practical to have a destination such as BEG-BEY-DXB. The option of flights to DXB with a stop to KWI seems more logical.

BTW, what Serbian companies have contracts in Kuwait now? As far as I know, DXB is as popular as SIN was in late 1980s (locals will understand me).

As for other airlines combining BEY and DAM I think British Mediterranean does it. They also combine ALP and DAM.

JAT could also combine BEY with CAI and even open a new route to AMM. Of course, if they survive the current crisis.


Aleksandar
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
 
captain777
Posts: 254
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 10:57 pm

RE: JAT Axes Beirut, To Start Kuwait Flights

Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:39 pm

I have a diffrent kind of question here.. Could anyone please tell me what 'fifth freedom rights' exactly means.. as I see this term being used constantly here.. but I'm not quit sure what it means



Captain
the sky is the limit.............actually FL410 is the limit
 
JU101
Posts: 831
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2001 1:57 am

RE: JAT Axes Beirut, To Start Kuwait Flights

Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:08 pm

Sorry I cant answer your question Captain, but I would like to follow up on the new information.

It pleases me that Beirut is not being dropped after all, but has been re-routed instead. Up to now the flights to Damascus were going through Cairo with extremely late arrivals. The new route to Damascus is a lot more logical, and it will certainly trim the travel time to and from Syria by at least one hour. From these developments we can conclude that Cairo is doing fairly, considering that the there are no plans to combine the route with any other destination.

Any takers on the weakest destinations for JAT. Here is what I suggest:
- Brussels
- Gothenburg
- Malta
- Tunis
- Damascus

Had there been no instability as a result of all blasted strikes, I would say that JAT is doing well. Unfortunately the future is uncertain...
 
BA
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RE: JAT Axes Beirut, To Start Kuwait Flights

Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:18 pm

JoKeR,

The straight line distance between Beirut and Damascus is just around 80 kilometers.

However, Damascus Airport is very far from the city towards about 30 kilometers southeast of the city, so the straight line distance from Beirut airport and Damascus Airport is actually 105 kilometers.

That is still very close of course.

Take a look at this map which labels both the the cities of Beirut and Damascus and their airports:


Captain777,

Fifth freedom rights allows an airline to sell seats between intermediate segments.

For example, the upcoming BEG-KWI-DXB service. JAT got 5th freedom rights for the KWI-DXB segment which means they can sell seats on KWI-DXB.

If they were not granted 5th freedom rights, it means they would not be allowed to sell seats on KWI-DXB.

Getting back on the issue of Beirut...

There are many Eastern European carriers that serve Beirut, Aeroflot and Czech Airlines being the largest.

All of the Eastern European airlines serving Beirut operate the service not combined with another destination except JAT and Hemus Air.

Aeroflot is right now 3x weekly Airbus A319-100 service from Moscow. However with the start of the spring schedule, they will be permanently upgrading it to 4x weekly A320-200 service. For the summer season it will operate daily A320-200 service.

Czech Airlines operates 3x weekly B737-400 service from Prague. In the summer, it gradually increases to 4x weekly, then to 5x weekly, and then to 6x weekly, then goes back down to 5x weekly, then back down to 4x weekly, and then finally down to 3x weekly again. All on B737-400s.

Malev Hungarian Airlines operates 2x weekly service from Budapest throughout the year on F70s, B737-600s, and B737-700s depending on demand. In the summer, it operates 4x weekly on a mix of B737-700s and B737-800s.

TAROM Romanian Air Transport operates 2x weekly B737-300 service from Bucharest going up to 3x weekly B737-300 service in the summer. Until about a year ago, the service continued onward to Amman, but because of high demand for Beirut, they decided to make the flight terminate in Beirut. The Amman service is now linked with Cairo service.

LOT Polish Airlines operates Beirut service from Warsaw between the end of March to the end of October, so no winter service. It operates 1x weekly B737-500 service going up to 2x weekly B737-500 service in the summer season.

UM Air operates 2x weekly DC-9-51 service from Kiev year-round.

Hemus Air operates 1x weekly B737-300 service from Sofia. Last summer the service went up to 2x weekly, I don't know if they will do that again this summer. Hemus Air's Beirut service continues to Dubai like JAT's Beirut service does right now. Interestingly, Hemus Air does not have any B737-300s, so they have Bulgaria Air operate the route for them.

Air Slovakia for the past two summers (summer seasonal only) has been operating service to Beirut from Bratislava. In summer 2003 it operated 2x weekly B737-200 service continuing to Kuwait. In summer 2004, it only operated 1x weekly B737-200 service continuing to Kuwait. I don't think they ever brought their B757-200. I don't know if they are planning on operating Beirut again this summer though.

While I don't think Armenia isn't really considered Eastern Europe (it's usually refered to as part of Caucusus Europe), Armavia operates 1x weekly A320-200 service from Yerevan year-round.

While Turkey is not Eastern Europe, Turkish Airlines is doubling Beirut service from 3x weekly B737-800 service from Istanbul to 6x weekly B737-800 service at the end of March. This is a permanent increase.

While Greece is not Eastern Europe either, Olympic Airlines operates 4x weekly B737-300 service from Athens. In the summer season, it increases to 5x weekly B737-400.

While Cyprus is not Eastern Europe either, Cyprus Airways operates daily A320-200 service from Larnaca. In the summer season, they add 3 extra flights a week increasing the service to 10x weekly.

So there is quite a bit of Eastern Europe service to Beirut which may be the reason why JAT is not doing very well.

So JAT will become 2x weekly B737-300 service operating as a triangle route, BEG-BEY-DAM-BEG.

Although I have to say, it's interesting that Tarom is doing very well, but JAT is not (if they indeed are not doing very well). You'd expect the opposite...

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
JoKeR
Topic Author
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Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:34 pm

RE: JAT Axes Beirut, To Start Kuwait Flights

Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:42 pm

Hi guys,

While not disputing BA's understandable and very valid confirmation that JAT will not drop BEY services, I had to do some more research today just to clarify this point as I hate spreading rumors and false information.

And guess what, I failed miserably!

Everyone at JAT is so concerned and worried about the bare survival of the airline that no one could care less to say "yeah" or "neah".

Unfortunately JAT has in the past opened capacities for sale to new destinations for example, that never materialized. The Johannesburg service is the most memorable, with posters, newspaper ads, pamphlets... and it resulted to zilch!

So, to sum up, if JAT survives, and today's indications by ministers Dinkic and Ilic point in that direction (source: National TV RTS), and the strikes are called of, we will "definitely" see BEY!

Otherwise, if the abovementioned fails, not only wont we have BEY flights, but we will be left without a national carrier by the end of the month.

BA, once again, thanks for all your information!
 
nycflyer
Posts: 1288
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:23 am

RE: JAT Axes Beirut, To Start Kuwait Flights

Tue Feb 15, 2005 4:37 am

I'm not sure about fifth freedom rights, but I've got a strong feeling Kuwait may have well granted them in order to boost traffic activity. I'm sure JAT asked for them!

I don't understand why the Kuwaiti government would grant 5th freedom rights to JAT to do KWI-DXB. Kuwait Airways is a state-owned carrier, and JAT would complete directly on what I presume is one of KU's most profitable routes. Why would the Kuwaiti gov do this? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

And with the HUGE amount of high-priced Iraq-related traffic coming through KWI, KWI airport is far from hurting these days.
 
AF022
Posts: 1874
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:41 pm

RE: JAT Axes Beirut, To Start Kuwait Flights

Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:56 pm

The kuwaiti government has doled out some 5th-freedom rights lately - perhaps to give KU a kick in the pants:

KWI-AUH on Lufthansa
KWI-DXB on Biman, Olympic, Thai, Sri Lankan, Oman
KWI-KHI on Air China

And to clarify, 5th-freedom rights allow an airline to carry passengers between two different countries where neither country is the airline's home country, nor where an intermediate country is the airline's home country. The above are all "tags" on flights that continue or originate from the airline's home base.

Lufthansa also operates KWI-DMM, but does not have 5th-freedom rights on this sector (although this is probably due even to the more restrictive Saudis)

 
JoKeR
Topic Author
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RE: JAT Axes Beirut, To Start Kuwait Flights

Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:17 pm

NYCFlyer,

Very valid question especially since most people still feel and believe that open markets and free competition are not a norm in that part of the world, fortunately, while that was a fact of life until a few years ago, many things are changing.

I agree with AF022's opening comments that the Government may well be doings "some kicking". And besides the comprehensive list of carriers with 5th freedom rights to/from KWI, lets also not forget that a new low-cost carrier, Jazeera Airways, will be based from the country's only civilian gateway and will be flying to some lucrative destinations, directly competing with KU.

According to a search I did on http://www.amadeus.net , JAT did get 5th Freedom Rights on KWI-DXB-KWI route.

WIth regards to your comment of Iraq-related KWI traffic, that indeed is true though DXB does get occasional direct flights into BGW. AMM is also a major transit point for Iraq-bound travelers and I believe that RJ still maintains scheduled daily services into BGW (security permitting).

Regards

[Edited 2005-02-15 13:19:29]

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