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rootsair
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Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:18 am

Hi

As you all know the roll out of the 777-200LR has taken place and will start operations in 2006

With its extensively large range of about 17, 000km , does this mean its the end of the A 340-500?
With its 4 engines I guess it will cost more expensive to maintain and with its shorter range it may dissuade people versus the 777 200LR. I guess airlines like BA will take advantage of the 772LR to make non stop LHR-SYD flights. Others might do the same and opt for the 772LR rather than the A345
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:23 am

Greatly abbreviated, but yes, the 772LR puts a major dent in the A345. The A345 is heavier and can carry less payload over less distance, slower, with higher fuel consumption. That does not bode well for attracting new customers and maintaining current ones.

Pricing and time gave the A345 an early leg up, but it appears both advantages are diminishing.
 
767-332ER
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:25 am


When will we see a SIA order for this baby to replace the A345?
 
airxliban
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:26 am

the 777-200LR is vastly superior to the A340-500, but it is also more expensive.

Boeing is predicting 500 777-200LR deliveries in the next 20 years. The A340-500 is still a competent plane which may fit well with many airlines' fleets, but in terms of the actual product Boeing has late mover advantage on this one.
 
S12PPL
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:26 am

No  Insane

I am NOT an Airbus fan...but A340-500's are not gonna just *poof* disapear...even over time. Virgin will always operate them. So will Emirates...etc.
 
Leskova
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:27 am

Out of curiosity - will the B777-200LR be able to fly LHR-SYD and SYD-LHR nonstop with a decent payload? Or would it, which is the impression I had from what I had read so far, have to make a stop on one of the legs?

Because if it would have to stop, I really don't see BA - or QF - going for the B777-200LR... nor do I, currently, see any other European airline going for it (or the A340-500): there are just far too few routes on which they could be used, and on which there is enough high yield traffic to justify the purchase of an, after all, quite expensive plane.

So: LHR-SYD both ways nonstop with reasonable payloads - possible?

Regards,
Frank
 
Ready4Pushback
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:30 am


Quoting S12PPL (reply 4):
Virgin will always operate them.

I didn't know Virgin had plans to operate the -500, do/are they?

Other than commonality with an existing fleet, I don't know why an airline would choose the a345 over the 772LR now, IMHO.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:31 am

Quoting S12PPL (reply 4):
Virgin will always operate them.

Hate to break this to you, but VS never has and probably never will operate an A345.

Quoting Leskova (reply 5):
So: LHR-SYD both ways nonstop with reasonable payloads - possible?

At this point, no
 
ACYWG
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:31 am

Quoting S12PPL (reply 4):
Virgin will always operate them. So will Emirates...etc

Virgin doesn't fly any A345's...I do believe that AC is going to continue using them, but rumor has it that even AC is taking a long hard look at the 772LR
 
Ozair
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:33 am

I was under the impression that airbus was bringing out an improved A345 that will bridge the range gap to be only a couple of hundred miles behind, close enough to be equally competitive.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:33 am

"Boeing is predicting 500 777-200LR deliveries in the next 20 years"

Somebody's been drinking from the same fountain as the outfit that predicted hundreds and hundreds of A380 orders....
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:35 am

Quoting Leskova (reply 5):
Out of curiosity - will the B777-200LR be able to fly LHR-SYD and SYD-LHR nonstop with a decent payload?


LHR-SYD can be flown with full passengers, no cargo
SYD-LHR can be flown with half passengers, no cargo

Right now the 772LR runs into problems with wind and fuel reserves on the SYD-LHR leg, and would realistically a few hundred more nautical miles of range to be sustainable. But maybe if Boeing uped the 772LR to the 773ER MTOW (another 8,000 of payload) and GE made a PIP available... who knows...

[Edited 2005-02-16 23:36:08]
 
Ready4Pushback
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:35 am


Quoting Leskova (reply 5):
Because if it would have to stop, I really don't see BA - or QF - going for the B777-200LR... nor do I, currently, see any other European airline going for it (or the A340-500): there are just far too few routes on which they could be used, and on which there is enough high yield traffic to justify the purchase of an, after all, quite expensive plane.

So: LHR-SYD both ways nonstop with reasonable payloads - possible?


On reading the other threads it would appear possible, but not economical. I think QF operate about 7 flights from LHR to Oz a day using 744s, so I doubt they will switch to a smaller a/c. As for BA, I don't think they will order anything, from anyone, any time soon - again, just what I understand from reading other threads about the subject, but I would love to see it!
 
S12PPL
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:36 am

My bad. I was thinking A340 in general for VS, and A340-500 for AC. Sorry for the error.

My point still remains, though. Smile
 
daedaeg
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:36 am

Yes it's the end. Where's the funeral procession?  Big grin
 
gigneil
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:39 am

Oh, whatever people.

The 777-200LR isn't something new. It was launched years ago, and hasn't yet caused the end of the A340-500.

The 777-200 didn't cause the immediate death of the A340-300, the 777-300ER hasn't ended the A340-600, and like so, this won't be a problem either.

N
 
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keesje
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:40 am

The A340-500 outsold the 772LR sofar.

In total as well as since the official launch of the 772LR.

However PIA & EVA are great airlines just like SQ & EK.

Maybe Boeing is leaving some factors out of the story line.

http://www.airbus.com/video/media/advertising/clouds.mpg
 
S12PPL
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:43 am

"The A340-500 outsold the 772LR sofar. "

Well that wasn't too hard to do, since the plane isn't even in comercial service yet. Give it a few years, befor we start comparing planes that are in passenger service, and not in passenger service. Obviously the A340-500 is going to out sell the -200LR. The A340-500 has been flying just a wee bit longer than the 777-200LR Smile
 
antares
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:50 am

At least up until now the Qantas line to analysts is that there is no jet, including the 777-200LR than can operate viable non-stops between LHR-SYD in either direction under Qantas standards or commercial expectations.

Clearly at some time in the future, such a jet will be produced.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:03 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (reply 11):
But maybe if Boeing uped the 772LR to the 773ER MTOW (another 8,000 of payload) and GE made a PIP available... who knows...

Doubt they'd have to PIP it for that, particularly since it's still "stifled" at 110K


Quoting Keesje (reply 16):
The A340-500 outsold the 772LR sofar.

...with a three year headstart? Imagine that.  Nuts


Quoting Keesje (reply 16):
In total as well as since the official launch of the 772LR.

...while keeping in mind that the A345 for a long time struggled to find customers once it actually had a competitor launched; they're both tied at two since the official advent of the twinjet.
 
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keesje
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:04 am


- Middle seats aren´t that bad when the flight isn´t too long
- An engine failure isn´t worrying if you have some left & an airport is near
- A high cabin noise level isn´t a problem when everyone has an ANR headset
- A high price isn´t a showstopper when airlines have billions to spend
- Export subsidies aren´t that important when you have a strong home market
- Cockpit commonality isn´t an issue if you like to train lots of pilots
- Cargo space LD3 utilization can be great if you like wide aisles for cargo



 
aaflt1871
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:07 am


Quoting RootsAir (reply 0):
does this mean its the end of the A 340-500?



I would say in SQ's fleet it does
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:10 am

Doubt they'd have to PIP it for that, particularly since it's still "stifled" at 110K

I meant a PIP that would lower SFC... like the one that will go on 773ER starting in October.

- An engine failure isn´t worrying if you have some left & an airport is near

Majority of engine failures are on take-off, not cruise. Ironic that more twins arrive at their destination than quads do... and for a 1 in 50,000 occurance, I'll take the better economics on the other 49,999 flights.
 
Speedbird2155
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:10 am

Ready4Pushback

QF generally 3 daily services LHR-Oz....4 on somedays, BA operates 3flts. Both carriers codeshare on each other, so maybe that is where you are thinking of the 7 QF flights. I do agree with you in that I don't see QF going for a lower capacity aircraft on the route and neither do I see BA doing it. QF will instead be increasing capacity with the A380.

On another note, I feel for the crew who have to operate non-stop flights on either the A345 or B772LR for those horribly long segments. Even with crew breaks, I somehow would question how effective crew would be in the later stages of the flight.
 
jaysit
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:12 am

Why should the A345 disappear?

After all the 772 and 773 didn't mark the death knell for the A330/340 family, even if many consider them to be superior airplanes.

With the right price and the right financing options, the A345 will continue to have a place as a niche market player, just like the 772LR probably will. And lets not forget that very many passengers and airlines prefer the Airbus wide-body 2-4-2 layout to the 777's rather nasty 2-5-2 or 3-3-3 layout.

However PIA & EVA are great airlines just like SQ & EK.

You're joking, right?
I suspect that PIA's 772LR purchase was more of a political SOP than anything else. The 772ER could have done KHI-JFK quite easily.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:36 am

Quoting Jaysit (reply 24):
And lets not forget that very many passengers and airlines prefer the Airbus wide-body 2-4-2

Exactly what airline is noted/documented to prefer this?
 
AirbusDriver
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:48 am

I agree the 2-3-2 and 2-5-2 C/Y suck especially in C class.

As far as the A345 Goes some Airlines do not want to deal with ETOPS (expense and time )
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:52 am

Quoting AirbusDriver (reply 26):
I agree the 2-3-2 and 2-5-2 C/Y suck especially in C class.

Too bad most airlines who have the option don't agree  Laugh out loud
 
lat41
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:01 am

Call me old fashioned but,as a passenger on a long trans Pacific or Polar flight, I'll go with two engines any time.....on each side.
 
milan320
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:14 am


Quoting Gigneil (reply 15):
Oh, whatever people.

The 777-200LR isn't something new. It was launched years ago, and hasn't yet caused the end of the A340-500.


Moreover, only 5 orders have so far been placed despite the fact that it's been available for order, as Gigneil mentioned, for quite a while.
5 orders, now that's a lot  Wink/being sarcastic
 
milan320
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:16 am


Quoting Leskova (reply 5):
Out of curiosity - will the B777-200LR be able to fly LHR-SYD and SYD-LHR nonstop with a decent payload? Or would it, which is the impression I had from what I had read so far, have to make a stop on one of the legs?


Yup, from everything I read, it would have to make one stop from SYD-LHR due to prevailing headwinds. Non-stop LHR-SYD, and one stop SYD-LHR.

/Milan320
 
QuestAir
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:50 am

Would SQ operate the A345 at the same time as the 772LR?
 
ozglobal
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:02 am

What's this nonsense about 772LR doing LHR-SYD-LHR?

i) It's WELL known it can't make it with a full commercial payload, especially in the return direction. The Boeing/BBC article is misleading to say the least on this.
ii) It would be legal suicide to install a standard Y class configuration on such a route. There would be a juritically lethal number of DVT deaths. Already happens often enough on 744's with a break in SIN.
iii) As a seasoned traveller of this route, I can tell you that most human beings will appreciate the hour or so in SIN, BKK or HKG to get the circulation going. 24hours is a long time to sit in a metal tube.
 
iowa744fan
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:21 am

Questair,

Given that they would operate pretty much the exact same routes, SQ would most likely only operate one or the other. My guess is that they would operate the 777LR based upon the commonality with it's existing 777 fleet, notably the 773ERs which also operate similar GE90 engines.

Jaysit,

You ever think that maybe PIA has more expansion plans for the US in mind that just JFK? For instance, LAX-KHI is 8366 miles and LAX-IAH is 8483 miles according to Great Circle Mapper...granted that they could continue to stop in MAN.
 
KL808
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:15 am

Ok here's my question:

Since Boeing offered the Boeing 777-200LR what's the score card with regards to orders from that point of time against the A340-500?

 
777ER
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:38 am

Even thout the A345 will be heavier and carry less passengers then the B772LR, airlines will still order the A345, like all airbus operators.
 
ua777222
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 12:07 pm

I would say that like the 737 and A32s, the 772LR will give the A345 a run for its money. Both will have their up's and downs. To say that the A345 has a leg up is silly seeing how its had years to jump the 772LR and it has been tested and proven through other carriers that it is a trusted and economic aircraft. Now when the 772LR testing and production is under way you will see other airlines actually thinking about this a/c. Right now, it would be a gamble for an airline with no money to put an order down for an aircraft that has not proven itself.

When the A346 first came out the range was a bit over hyped and airlines learned though their own operations that the range expected would not be met with their current loads and standards. If I recall correctly SAA had issues with some routes with this aircraft. This is not an a vs. b post just something to show that you have to give both aircraft time to make their show and for airlines to make their payments......

The A345 is making its appearance now let the 772LR flex its wings a bit before you call it a game!

Thanks again,

Matt
 
gigneil
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 12:13 pm

If I recall correctly SAA had issues with some routes with this aircraft.

You recall incorrectly.

SAA is fully thrilled with the performance of the aircraft on all routes they've deployed it on. It is meeting their every expectation.

N
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:06 pm

I was under the impression that airbus was bringing out an improved A345 that will bridge the range gap to be only a couple of hundred miles behind, close enough to be equally competitive.

Airbus can increase the allowable MTOW for A340-500 but they can not "bridge the gap" in terms of operating cost which will only be increased by the proposed 380t A340-500.

Right now the 772LR runs into problems with wind and fuel reserves on the SYD-LHR leg, and would realistically a few hundred more nautical miles of range to be sustainable. But maybe if Boeing uped the 772LR to the 773ER MTOW (another 8,000 of payload) and GE made a PIP available... who knows...


The problem is that 777-200LR does not have enough fuel to make the route Westbound with good payload. With 358,000lb fuel (max fuel) and 301 pax the LR is still 23,000lbs under MTOW. To make the route with more payload the aircraft needs more fuel and the current aircraft has nowhere to put anymore fuel. GE would have to improve SFC by at least 3% (possible by adapting some of the GEnx tech to GE90) or more to make the route viable for 777-200LR with a 65,000lb payload SYD-LHR. Even then the performance would be very close to the edge and would only allow a non-stop during 3 or 4 months of the year. Better bet would be if Boeing could increase the fuel cap with a couple of thousand gallons or more in a horizontal stabilizer tank and increase the allowable MTOW. That would give the aircraft more fuel capacity to make the trip more viable but still not enough to guarantee a year-round non-stop as the trip time difference SYD-LHR could be up to 3 hours longer than LHR-SYD. The power from the engines is there already but the cost and time of developing the extra fuel tankage might not be worth it. Then again...

-widebodyphotog
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:34 pm

it's not going to work on Syd-Lhr-Syd but QF could look at it for Per-Lhr-routes, the Per-Lhr in operation now is usually only operating at 40%, it's barely been over 200 since the routes inception. 772LR would be perfect for QF to operate nonstop to Perth with onward connections to the rest of Australia.

as for Lhr-Syd, it took an empty Qantas 747-400 close to 22hrs to operate that flight in 1989, surely with a load in the 777LR it's going to take roughly the same time, as for the opposite direction, no chance, Qantas probably wouldn't even consider putting pax through that ordeal even if it was possible.
 
777ER
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:59 pm


Quoting QANTAS077 (reply 39):
Qantas probably wouldn't even consider putting pax through that ordeal even if it was possible.

With airlines these days, you never know
 
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PM
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:16 pm

Quoting UA777222 (reply 36):
Right now, it would be a gamble for an airline with no money to put an order down for an aircraft that has not proven itself.


I'm a bit confused. "An airline with no money..." So, since they have (in your terms) gambled, PIA must have lots of money? Seems unlikely.

Airlines 'gamble' all the time with aeroplanes that have not yet proved themselves. A dozen airlines have done it on the A380 for example.
 
Leskova
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:45 pm


Quoting QANTAS077 (reply 39):
it's not going to work on Syd-Lhr-Syd but QF could look at it for Per-Lhr-routes, the Per-Lhr in operation now is usually only operating at 40%, it's barely been over 200 since the routes inception. 772LR would be perfect for QF to operate nonstop to Perth with onward connections to the rest of Australia.


While the B777-200LR might be perfect for the low loads on the PER-LHR route, I seriously doubt that any airline, including Qantas, would acquire a rather expensive aircraft for a route that's underperforming... of course, it would depend whether those 40% are all high-yield passengers - but if they're not, then I'd say there's really barely a chance that QF would even consider the purchase.

Essentially, I agree with those that say that the B777-200LR will not be the end of the A340-500: it won't further the orders for it, but it certainly won't kill them off alltogether.

As for SQ replacing theirs... first of all, let's just wait and see - and while I, too, see an order for B777-200LRs for SQ as more of a question of "when" than "if", replacing the A340-500s would require them to sell theirs, and I have my doubts that Boeing would consider going for another A340-300/B777-200-type of deal...

Regards,
Frank
 
knoxibus
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:57 pm


Quoting Leskova (reply 42):
and I have my doubts that Boeing would consider going for another A340-300/B777-200-type of deal...


Well, for my parts I do not have any doubts, and my little finger is telling me that BCA is also thinking about doing the same thing with EK....actually they have already talked about it.

Otherwise, why would Forgeard, Leahy and co suddenly go to Dubai for a little chat with EK's CEO some days before the A380's reveal whereas they could have waited a few days and talked during the ceremony...

But let's wait and see.
 
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keesje
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:09 pm

Maybe in a few months SQ exercises it's five A340-500 options.



Reality it's created by Mike Boyd & Concordeboy

(to name a few established aerospace consultants)
 
IL76TD
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:56 pm

speaking of high yield driving a route

emirates pricing for NYC-DXB-NYC for a ticket middle of march (just bought an economy ticket for a friend)

Economy: $968
Business: $7000 (approx)
First: $10000

Pretty incredible and a good indication of how high yield passengers can drive a route.
 
BOEING747400
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:27 pm

No, not necessarily so. The 772LR may either replace or team up with 345 on major long-haul routes. In case of replacement, the 345 could be used on other long distance pairs that the airlines want available on their timetables. The 345 is too advanced and new of an aircraft to retire so quickly.
 
PyroGX41487
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:19 pm

Faaaaaarrrr too many A340-500 bashers on this thread.

Does a new plane by Boeing automatically mean the end of the A340-500? No. Airbus will redesign it, or keep advertising it, pushing at potential Boeing customers. I don't think we'll see the A340-500 replaced anywhere it already is except maybe in SQ's fleet, if they don't decide to run them neck-and-neck (They will have 744s and A380s running at the same time, remember).

I'm banking on SQ flying A340-500s SIN - LAX while any 777-200LRs they order will take SIN-EWR. They could also charter out a great deal of the A345s, too to Dejakarta (sp?) like they do sometimes...
 
Rj111
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:30 pm

The choice of either 772LR or A345 in most cases will be dictated by the decision between the A346 and 773ER.
 
na
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RE: Does The 772LR Mean The End Of The A 345

Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:45 pm

"Boeing is predicting 500 777-200LR deliveries in the next 20 years"

Seems its the same idiot who predicted no market for the A380 who said this now. Its very unlikely the 777 will be built after 2020.
Interesting that in the years since the 772LR was launched just two clients ordered it. In the same amount of time the A380 got 10 times more orders.

The 772LR is a great plane, but it isn´t the best thing since the invention of sliced bread. And its prohibitively expensive to buy.

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Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos