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Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Pri

Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:25 am

Quoting N1120A (reply 48):
You include Pinnacle? Those are much cheaper RJs that can be built a lot faster and taken more quickly as well. Remember, FR is ordering from a line that is already close to capacity and still takes 3 planes at a time some deliveries


I was just pointing out that NWA is far from only retro-fitting old jets. Ok, even without the CRJs, NWA has almost received twice as many aircraft as FR over the last five years. So the original comment I was replying to is simply not justified.


Regards
Udo
 
bennett123
Posts: 10879
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:51 am

AirFRNT

By BA, I assume that you mean Boeing.

You say that the US Govt pays the bulk of the cost of NATO, It also generally calls the shots.
 
707lvr
Posts: 457
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:41 am

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 4:25 am

If you're talking about the true direct costs of building a bare-bones 737, I would imagine Boeing can build one for $20 million or less.
 
Planesmart
Posts: 2891
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 4:45 am

Good forward 737 sales (firm) will allow B to announce 737ADV developments, without harming 737 deliveries in 2006-2008, which might otherwise be expected to dip pre-replacement availability.

No analyst / journalist would have any idea what price Ryannair paid, and what was included/excluded. Many tax effective tricks of the trade, and the winglets add a new dimension.

Lot of rivalry between personalities in European LCC's, as well as between LCC's themselves. Take this into account when you see media releases about how much / how little they have paid, interest rates obtained, and options held. Often more fiction than fact.
 
AADC10
Posts: 1511
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:40 am

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 4:50 am

I would suspect that the deal was priced in Euros and that Boeing is betting that the US$ will continue to fall, closing the gap between the list price and the purchase price. Ryanair still got a great deal, however.
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2181
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:05 am

Quoting Bennett123 (reply 52):
You say that the US Govt pays the bulk of the cost of NATO, It also generally calls the shots.


Umm... Have you missed the last 2 years of Germany blocking the US from doing anything with NATO in Iraq? Despite the fact that almost every unit and all of the logistical equipment we paid for?

NATO doesn't dance to our fiddle, as much as I, as a US taxpayer who sees how much money we sink into it might wish it. Neither does the UN despite the fact that we pay for the largest chunk of it's budget.

*shrug* anyways, that's tangential, I was just explaining why American's object to EU revenue proping up Airbus so they can pull of some of the deals they have done. It's great that Boeing (stock sticker BA) can compete with them now.
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:17 am

Quoting AirFRNT (reply 56):

Umm... Have you missed the last 2 years of Germany blocking the US from doing anything with NATO in Iraq? Despite the fact that almost every unit and all of the logistical equipment we paid for?


I would say Germany simply does not want to send soldiers to Iraq because the majority of our citizens opposed the war from the beginning. However, our troops are engaged elsewhere to fight the real terrorists, such as in Afghanistan, just to name one. And German soldiers and policemen train Iraqi security forces in the UAE.


Quoting AirFRNT (reply 56):
Despite the fact that almost every unit and all of the logistical equipment we paid for?


Which one and where do you mean?
 
N1120A
Posts: 26927
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:24 am

Quoting AirFRNT (reply 56):
Umm... Have you missed the last 2 years of Germany blocking the US from doing anything with NATO in Iraq? Despite the fact that almost every unit and all of the logistical equipment we paid for?


Well, the US is the largest member of NATO by population

Quoting AirFRNT (reply 56):
NATO doesn't dance to our fiddle, as much as I, as a US taxpayer who sees how much money we sink into it might wish it. Neither does the UN despite the fact that we pay for the largest chunk of it's budget.


NATO is an organization of nation-states, not a sub-section of the United States government. Also, you apparently forget the billions we owe the UN
 
gearup
Posts: 514
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 9:23 am

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:37 am

It's great to see Boeing dishing Airbus some of it's own price cutting medicine.


Boeing did'nt dish Airbus anything. This order was Boeing's to get, I'll bet Airbus were not even asked to quote! MOL has an irrational hatred of all things Airbus. If anything, after all MOL's rhetoric to Boeing: " You keep building them and we'll keep flying (buying) them ", maybe a mere suggestion by MOL to Boeing about having a chat with airbus on pricing was enough to put Boeing's sales dept. into a tailspin. I would say Airbus are laughing their heads off right now. In a general sense though, if Boeing can make money on the deal, why not?
 
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sunrisevalley
Posts: 5392
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:26 am

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:44 am

Any ideas what the list price of a given version of the 737 has been for each of the past 4-years?
 
atmx2000
Posts: 4301
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:24 pm

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:11 am

NATO is an organization of nation-states, not a sub-section of the United States government. Also, you apparently forget the billions we owe the UN

And you forget the significant portion of the UN peacekeeping budget that the US pays and the even larger indirect contributions the US makes in support of UN peacekeeping operations.
 
strudders
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:39 pm

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:45 am

How has this turned into a discussion regarding the frailties of NATO??

Can we please get back to the subject.....

Now, what are Ryanair going to do with all these lovely cheap new aircraft they have acquired?

Best Regards

Strudders
 
hz747300
Posts: 2421
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:45 am

The US does not owe the UN Billions anymore. A few months after September 11, 2001, the US paid all its back owed dues. Read the book, We Did Nothing. Also, the US typically deducted its cost of peacekeeping efforts from the amount it owed the UN, as did France and Belgium when they had peacekeeping efforts in post-colonial Africa. That is all in the book too, and sourced. (Long story short--before the UN can go in, there has to be an invasion force, because the UN is a passive organization by design. The countries in the invasion force will deduct the cost of the invasion from the amount it owes the UN in dues).

As for the Ryanair/Boeing deal, when you order 140 jets with barebones interiors, you can pay less than half the cost. It is one of the benefits of ordering in volume. Remember, Ryanair is not in the business of attracting the wine & cheese crowd, they are in the business of delivering you safely from point A to point B. No window-shades, no reclining chairs, and no seatpockets are what lets this happen, but more importantly, it is a volume discount.
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:07 am

Nobody has answered the contradiction of paying $4.6 billion-but they got them at half price.

Regardless, Boeing has made significant efficiency improvements in the 737 production line translating to less costs. Volume counts.

If the story is true and Being has lowered margins to fill the book, I think it is a sign they will be developing a new plane to replace it with what they learn from the 787. Guaranteed sales while its soon-to-be obsolete.
 
1MillionFlyer
Posts: 1937
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:55 am

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:13 am

If your read the article it was for 40 FIRM order and 30 option so they are only paying for the firm orders. These are several threads about this from earlier in the week.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:18 am

Quoting 252MKR (reply 45):
Add to this the fact that the 320 series EFIS pkg and box are even more dated than the 73 NG's.


They're actually 9 years newer.

N
 
PHXinterrupted
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 6:41 am

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:20 am

"To get a greater discount this time indicates Boeing NEEDED the order, and were willing to prostitute themselves to secure it. Empty slots don't do anyone any good. This wasn't a competitive order, no Airbus involvement, there was no need to hit the floor."

Jesus, nothing like a hypocrite. Perhaps I will paste your same statement in the coming thread for Iberia's purchase of Airbus planes.
 
1MillionFlyer
Posts: 1937
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:55 am

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:24 am

Gigneil

sorry man you are wrong. The A320 can't even calculate current position direct on the FMS. I know people typed in the A320 and the 737NG, I would be curious how you came to your conclusion?

A320's first hit the market in 1988 in thr US when HP bought the Braniff cancelled orders for around 20 Million each. Today I think an Airbus 320 lists for about 44Million

[Edited 2005-02-25 23:27:17]
 
252MKR
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 7:46 am

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:42 am

GigNeil,

The A320 first flew in 1987, and the 737-700 was certified on November 7, 1997. So the NG is actually 10 years newer--And those ten years were huge in the software development world. The MCDU in the Bus has to understand where it has been to know where it is going--the Boeing Box can just go there. This is just one example of how an 320 is like flying an Intel 286 and an NG is like flying a Pentium III. No better or worse argument here--just newness.

Hope this helps.

Happy Friday!
 
leelaw
Posts: 4517
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 4:13 pm

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Pri

Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:53 am

Quoting 252MKR (reply 69):
The A320 first flew in 1987, and the 737-700 was certified on November 7, 1997. So the NG is actually 10 years newer--And those ten years were huge in the software development world.



Didn't the A320 series get an avionics upgrade last year; the newer build aircraft have upgraded avionics?
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:58 am

That's the advantages of buying in bulk, especially if you're already an established customer. Car dealers do similar tactics like pricing below invoice price to get folks to buy their cars, and in the case of loyal customers, offer deals that aren't available to someone who isn't a current customer of the brand. The only other way an airline can get a sweetheart deal is when they're the launch customer.
 
252MKR
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 7:46 am

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:21 am

LeeLaw,

It has been almost two years since Bus school--I would be very interested to see specifically what they have done. Unless they ripped out the MCDU and replaced it with a Honeywell / Boeing style box it would be hard to make major software changes. I have heard that the new 330 / 340's are fine.

Mahalo for the info.

Bon Weekend.
 
CRJ900
Posts: 2410
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:48 am

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:38 am

Don't forget that Boeing have restructured their production facilities over the last few years to become a lean, mean aircraft-producing machine. They have reduced their production costs considerably and can now offer more discounts to big customers and still make money on the deals. Besides, their 737NG's must be getting close to 2000 units soon, the development costs should be covered by now.
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:02 am

Quoting Srbmod (reply 70):
That's the advantages of buying in bulk, especially if you're already an established customer. Car dealers do similar tactics like pricing below invoice price to get folks to buy their cars, and in the case of loyal customers, offer deals that aren't available to someone who isn't a current customer of the brand. The only other way an airline can get a sweetheart deal is when they're the launch customer.


Boeing will cost the deal out longterm. By selling at or below invoice rate, they get a customer buying spares and technical support for decades.

Especially with high-use carriers like Ryanair who get more hours and cycles on their aircraft than an equivalent aircraft with a legacy carrier. No hours at the gate and more cycles racked up.

The outturn on a lowcost aircraft will be higher than on a lower user for Boeing. I would think they cost Southwest's deal the same. It's longterm income, and Boeing's support arm is the real moneymaker in their civil airliner division. A few years back their branded parts bin made all of their profit in one year for civil aircraft.

Boeing branded consumables are also a huge moneymaker for limited life items and even stuff like spray cans.
 
bennett123
Posts: 10879
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:17 am

Clearly, you have a point.

Personally, I would have thought that Boeing could have got more for their planes than $30M. The point is that Boeing have been in this business for a long time, so the answer is obviously no.

There are two reasons why MOL will not buy Airbus;

1. Stelios has got them.

2. Because he equates Airbus with the great bogey (the EU).
 
art
Posts: 4223
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:42 am

Quoting Gkirk (reply 11):
Not only give them away, but Airbus pay the airlines to take their Airbusses


I'm starting an airline tomorrow (OK perhaps I'll have to leave it to Monday now) and I'm going to order zillions of Awhatevers from Airbus. I could do with a nice big cheque at the moment. Not quite sure what I'm going to do with all those free planes, though.
 
chgoflyer
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:16 pm

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 12:48 pm

NATO is an organization of nation-states, not a sub-section of the United States government. Also, you apparently forget the billions we owe the UN???/

If your going to make these type of statements... then get informed!

Good going Ryan/Boeing I think they will serve them well....after all the alt would be a Puegot with wings!
 
iwok
Posts: 979
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:35 pm

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:33 pm

Quoting 252MKR (reply 68):
The MCDU in the Bus has to understand where it has been to know where it is going--the Boeing Box can just go there.


252, could you please explain this in more detail for people like myself who have not had the chance to pilot an airliner. Does this mean that AirBus "MCDU" is not tied into GPS?

iwok
 
johnberg
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:54 pm

RE: Ryanair Buys Boeing 737 For Less Then Half Price?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:52 pm

This from the Chicago Tribune......

Ryanair deal valued at $4.6 billion; option for 70 more planes

By James P. Miller
Tribune staff reporter
Published February 25, 2005


Boeing Co. got a boost Thursday when the Chicago-based aircraftmaker received a $4 billion-plus jetliner order from Irish discount carrier Ryanair Holdings PLC.

The rapidly growing, Dublin-based airline, which provides low-cost air service across Europe, placed a firm order for 70 of Boeing's 737-800 model aircraft. In addition, it placed non-binding options on 70 additional jets.


.......Perhaps the writer of the article you are all quoting, mistook information about the options and factored that into the price somehow. If not it could just be that there is a huge mark-up on the price (kind of like when you buy a new car, the sticker price is just a suggestion, how often does a person actually pay that price). Also, if no one actually know the production cost of the aircraft there is room for negotiating.

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