Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Cory6188
Topic Author
Posts: 2710
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:29 am

CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:20 am

 
TWFirst
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:47 am

Excellent news!! A half-billion a year in savings. I believe this is a sign that CO employees, although bummed they have to take cuts, still trust management.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
drdivo
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:03 am

While I am immensely pleased that Continental was able to obtain these agreements (over the weekend, it wasn't at all certain, and the company video led one to believe that more harsh measures probably would have followed if they had not done,) my friends who work at 1600HQ tell me that productivity is off more than 20%, and that the mood last Friday was quite dour - today being the first day of pay cuts for non-union employees.

It is very troubling to me, having listened to the company video selling their employee base on the wage cuts/work rule changes, to learn that the LCC companies in the US have on order more new jets than CO has aircraft in its fleet. Something has got to give with this situation, and it is my belief that we will see the Icarus like failure of at least one high-flying LCC within the next few years. Each, save and except WN, is departing from the business model of one aircraft type/high traffic city pairs and is trying to mold themselves to be a legacy style carrier.

A number of people here on a.net have posted their thoughts slagging CO's management. I suggest to you, if you are in that group, that you review CO's financial documents, and review just how little money they have lost in comparison to the other legacies, and how well they have stood up in comparison to the 800 pound gorilla, WN. They have the third highest pay structure in the industry, yet they lose almost no money in comparison to the other legacies. They offer more service to the flying customer, keep their aircraft in the air nearly 16 hours/day, and have clean facilities and equipment. Clearly, they are doing something right. These things do not stem from the two trips through bankruptcy court in a time that is no longer relevant to the present. Any arguments that their cost structure is benefited by their 1980s bankruptcies are ill considered and without foundation. These things stem from the environment created by and for the employees at Continental, and from the decisions of management over the last 12 years.

I must acknowledge everyone who works for CO who voted with their pocketbook to continue to support this company; this was an awful decision to have to make. I must point out that CO gave 10MM shares of common stock to an employee stock ownership program today subject to the approval of the NYSE - these stock options together with the expanded profit sharing programs could actually INCREASE the wage scales at CO should they return to profitability. In reviewing the stock option program, please note that these options are NOT for executive employees - only those employees to whom such stock options were not previously available.
Respectfully - the Divo
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 14147
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:20 am

"Because of Continental's success in reaching these tentative agreements by Feb. 28, The Boeing Company and Continental have agreed to extend for one month the period for board approval of their previously announced aircraft acquisition agreement, allowing time for ratification of these tentative agreements. The aircraft acquisition agreement will permit the company to grow by leasing eight 757-300 aircraft starting this summer, accelerating delivery of six Boeing 737-800 aircraft into 2006, and acquiring 10 Boeing 787 aircraft beginning in 2009."
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Gnomon
Posts: 894
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 1999 12:38 pm

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:28 am

Sorry if I missed this in an earlier thread, but from where will the 753s come?
 
drdivo
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:32 am

They acquired eight 753s from ATA; Boeing is paying for the re-configuration, re-do of the interiors and the re-painting, and delivering them expecting only the first month's lease payment.
Respectfully - the Divo
 
globaldude
Posts: 173
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 1:10 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:21 am

these are just tentative agreements with the big three unions....

the union membership has not had a chance to look at the information and will not vote for close to a month. all t/a's are contingent on all 3 unions voting yes....otherwise, no deal
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15747
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:41 am

the union membership has not had a chance to look at the information and will not vote for close to a month. all t/a's are contingent on all 3 unions voting yes....otherwise, no deal

While that's true, more often than not the membership tends to go along with the recommendation of the union leadership.

And of course in CO's case, the membership is KEENLY aware of the fact that in today's day and age if the company doesn't get what they want, they'll get it AND MORE via a bankruptcy proceeding.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
toxtethogrady
Posts: 1861
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 12:33 pm

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:04 am

"Something has got to give with this situation, and it is my belief that we will see the Icarus like failure of at least one high-flying LCC within the next few years."

They're making money. They don't have to give a thing...
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:55 pm

today being the first day of pay cuts for non-union employees.

Actually, that is not now true. I talked with one of our EIT reps and she indicated that the pay cuts for the non-union workers have been suspended pending union approval of their deals. So I get my full pay a little while longer.

Kudo's to the management/union teams negotiationg this. I urge my colleagues in the unions to accept these deals, so we can all move forward.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
NWAFA
Posts: 1843
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:00 pm

Im sorry I do not agree with the paycuts. Take a paycut so we can buy more planes (more debt too). So the employees have to purchase these aircraft? Bunk.
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:14 pm

Im sorry I do not agree with the paycuts. Take a paycut so we can buy more planes (more debt too). So the employees have to purchase these aircraft? Bunk

The alternative, my friend, is to shrink the airline, lay off employees, and still have the red ink. Bunk to you, but it's not your butt on the line, is it pal?

The paycuts are necessary. That's the bottom line, no matter what a NWAFA says. If CO keeps bleeding money, even slowly, it will end up in the same boat as UA and US someday. If it can trim costs, and perhaps grow it's way to more prosperous days, then, in the long run, everyone at CO will be better off.

By the way, NWAFA, just because an airline is losing money, doesn't mean it stops spening money. I guess we should all just hold onto 30-year old DC-9's, eh?  Smile
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15747
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:05 pm

So I get my full pay a little while longer.


Exactly. CO held off for a month so that no one group of employees takes a pay cut even one DAY earlier than other groups will - a good move from a company that wants to take care of their people.

And FWIW, while no one wants to see paycuts occur - and believe me, they're happening at my airline too - these small ones now are going to be what keeps our respective airlines healthy and strong when the shakeout of this industry is farther along.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Cory6188
Topic Author
Posts: 2710
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:29 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:41 pm

CO management hasn't been immune from all of these paycuts as well, Annoyedfa. In case you didn't read the press releases, everyone in CO's management took 20% paycuts and gave up their bonuses for the year. They aren't sitting back and taking home the same pay while the regular staff take cuts.
 
globaldude
Posts: 173
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 1:10 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Tue Mar 01, 2005 11:37 pm

falcon....i have been around since the last bk, and all i can say is that no one, cal employee or not, should be saying that the union groups should take this offer....we have not even seen them yet, nor have you. at least let all of us that it affects see what the offer is, before you judge our decisions or predict what will happen. remember, these t/a's are contingent on all 3 groups ratification. all of us are going to read the t/a's and make what decision we have to....whether that be a yes or no. our decisions affect everyone at CAL...lets wait and see what is in the agreements, then everyone can make an educated decision, not just bantor.
 
TWFirst
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Tue Mar 01, 2005 11:37 pm

AnnoyedFA: You should change your name to AnnoyingFA. The key to CO's long-term sustainable business plan is to continue to grow internationally while continuing to offer industry-leading service. A company needs to plan for the future, not the here and now, thus CO is planning for the future aircraft purchases. More planes = more fying = preservation of jobs. If the competition is continuing to lower its labor and other costs through bankruptcy, what choice does CO have in order to be able execute its strategy?

Falcon has it right. And unlike other competitors, who are or were poorly managed, Bethune and his team built an environment of trust between management and the rank and file... CO workers know if management says the company needs the cuts, then the company needs the cuts, and as previously mentioned, management is taking cuts too. I know this is hard for employees of other airlines to understand, because that same relationship and environment doesn't exist at CO's competitors.

Take a happy pill, chill and be still.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Tue Mar 01, 2005 11:44 pm

GlobalDude, I appreciate your perspective, but I look at it this way: take what's on the table now-whate their own reps negotiated with the company, or take a worse offer in bankruptcy. That's the reality of the situation, and I think if most of the union people know that deep down, except for annoyed flight attendants.  Smile
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
globaldude
Posts: 173
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 1:10 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:02 am

but the offer is not even on the table yet....we won't see anything for a few more days....this is a negotiation process, hopefully we can live with the offer, otherwise we will live with alternative.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:19 am

I've got a hunch you guys will be able to live with it....I'm also thinking that the Stock Option that was announced yesterday was part of that process, and I think it's a good idea, no matter brought up the idea.

I just am of the opinion that your reps wouldn't agree to it, if they didn't feel you would. I'm sure we'll hear more in the coming days. I think, in the end, we'll all move forward to bigger and better things in the future.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ewr757
Posts: 356
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2000 8:47 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:59 am

I guess Falcon will have to eat his response when I told him the pilots would demand and receive substantial upside for our "investment"


Bullet Points of CAL ALPA Tentative Agreement

[subject to MEC review and approval]



- Effective date of agreement if ratified by MEC and membership: April 1, 2005

- Amendable date of agreement: Dec. 31, 2008

- Effective date and duration are the same as all other employee groups.



- Wage reduction in hourly rates: 8.9%

- Wage build-back in hourly rates: 2% July 1, 2007, 2% July 1, 2008



- Establishment of Defined Contribution Plan, hard freeze of Defined Benefit Plan.

- Company contribution levels phase in: 6.75% - July 1, 2005, 10% - July 1, 2006, 12.75% - July 1, 2007 and thereafter.

- Additional variable DC contributions based on company profitability.



- Additional contract modifications to conserve short-term cash effective July 1, 2005:

** Deadhead paid at 50% [full credit for line construction]; will increase to 75% value on July 1, 2006, and full value on July 1, 2007.

** Vacation pay values will decrease April 1, 2005, to 3:15/day, with a further decrease July 1, 2005, to 3:00/day and restored to 3:15/day on July 1, 2007.

** Pay value for a training day reduced to 2:24; line construction credit 2:45.

** Parking allowance eliminated.



- Pilot group will be given options for 6.8% ownership [up to 5.8 million shares].

- CAL prohibited from stock buy-backs or payment of dividends on CAL stock until $500 million has been placed in to Pilot-only DB Plan.

- CAL ALPA will be provided with access to CAL Board of Directors level review of strategic business plans and all BOD briefing materials.



- Established more structured and detailed seating assignment priorities for Deadhead segments.

- No un-seating of Deadheading pilot without pilot concurrence.



- Complete re-write of Reserve Scheduling section to allow for long-call and short-call reserve lines. All reserve pilots will be allowed aggressive pick-up of flight assignments.



- B-787 will be paid as Widebody pay; ALPA and company will jointly develop crew rest facility.



- Major enhancement of Section 1–Scope [ratio aircraft and ASMs, limits on foreign flights]

- “No furlough” provision for all CAL pilots on the seniority list as of the effective date.

- When hiring, preferential interview to pilots of Express Carriers.



- Make available open cabin seats to additional jumpseat riders.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 2:03 am

So, EWR757, the $500 million question.  Smile

Are you going to vote yes on the deal?

And personally, I like the stock option plan-which, by the way, isn't just for you guys, it's for all of us. CO is making 10 million shares available for employees. I think that's a good incentive.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ewr757
Posts: 356
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2000 8:47 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 2:16 am

I need to read more of the actual proposal when it is released. My vote will depend heavily on the level and length of freezes management is willing to take with their bonus and incentive programs.
 
AA767400
Posts: 1894
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 2:19 am

Well its about time good old CAL feels the crunch. All the meals services had to come from somewhere, and this is just where they got the money from. Soon or later they will realize that they can't afford meals for domestic flights just like everyone else.
"The low fares airline."
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 2:22 am

Jesus, what a hypocrite, EWR757. You're more worried about what management is getting-as if you don't make a handsome living already doing what you do, and THAT will decided you vote?

It proves my point about you: you're one of the whining, crying, big babies that we have, who can't stand anyone makes more than him, or that their compensation will beat his.

Interesting, you're taking a smaller wage cut than I am, my friend. I guess you poor, low-paid pilots just can't take it, eh?  Smile
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ewr757
Posts: 356
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2000 8:47 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 2:46 am

Falcon, talking to you is like trying to explain physics to an insect. You wanted my opinion and I gave it to you. If you don't like my answer that is your problem. Your sophomoric response is expected and dismissed.

I think it is hypocritical of management to bestow upon themselves hundreds of millions in bonuses while many pilots have not had a raise in over 5 years. This of course is also due to the fact our contract has been amendable since 2002. I honestly don't care what they earn until they try and reach into my pocket. Is that to difficult of a concept for you to understand?

>>Interesting, you're taking a smaller wage cut than I am, my friend. I guess you poor, low-paid pilots just can't take it, eh?<<

Your earnings my friend are far closer to industry norm than the pilots have ever been. On the comparitive scale, we are low paid. I'll take the DL or NWA concessionary agreement anytime.

>>you're one of the whining, crying, big babies<<

Now that is odd. Reading your posts one could say the same thing about you.
Your continued posts of misinformation and slander at the unions is, at best, a joke. Especialy when those who are really in the know can see through such ignorance.

I know your lofty position as a gate agent give you the distinct ability to pass judgement not only on what the pilots should vote for, but all other employee groups as well.

[Edited 2005-03-01 18:50:13]
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15747
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 2:51 am

My vote will depend heavily on the level and length of freezes management is willing to take with their bonus and incentive programs.

Sorry EWR757, but I'm agreeing with Falcon on this one - why should what level of a hit management takes influence your opinion of this agreement?

My 62 year old mother is an agent at the PHX ATO, and even she's taking a deeper overall percentage paycut than the pilot group is. I don't see how you can possibly look at your union's tentative agreement as poor by comparison.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ewr757
Posts: 356
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2000 8:47 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:06 am

>>Sorry EWR757, but I'm agreeing with Falcon on this one<<

Why should you be sorry? I do not expect anyone but the pilots to understand my position which is shared by many. Unlike Falcon, I respect your opinion which you are entitled too.

>>why should what level of a hit management takes influence your opinion of this agreement?<<

Management wants to take a hit off my 1997 pay scale in 2005. Yet their "reductions" are based on their 2004 earnings. Their continued claims of no dollars to negotiate a fair agreement of our contract amendable in 2002 while literally millions have been paid out to management is hypocritical.
I just don't see real shared sacrifice on their part.

>>My 62 year old mother is an agent at the PHX ATO, and even she's taking a deeper overall percentage paycut than the pilot group is. <<

Ma was making closer to industry wages than the pilots. Not a valid comparison. Interesting though.

>>I don't see how you can possibly look at your union's tentative agreement as poor by comparison.<<

Let's compare it to the other concessionarly contracts out there today. Better yet, let's compare it to pre 9/11 contracts and where CAL pilots were.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15747
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:50 am

Why should you be sorry?

I say it not from a point of apologizing but for not being able to back your point of view fully, which I'd normally do - I'm a HUGE fan of CO and their pilots are the most professional in the business as far as I'm concerned.

Unlike Falcon, I respect your opinion which you are entitled too.

And I, yours. I just think perhaps this is one of those rare occasions where we'll have to agree to disagree.

Let's compare it to the other concessionary contracts out there today.

Ok, let's do that.

AA - took a much larger paycut than you will
DL - took a much larger paycut than you will
UA - took a much larger paycut than you will
US - took a much larger paycut than you will
NW - took a much larger paycut than you will
AS - in negotiations; expected to take between a 20-35% paycut - again, much larger than your cut


I don't begrudge pilots making as much as they can, but the reality right now is that everyone else has taken paycuts - and while I hate this "race to the bottom" in employee pay, right now it's a corporate need instead of a corporate want. Ultimately, the pay levels for you and all your co-workers (pilots and other employees alike) will rise as CO will emerge stronger, bigger and healthier once all is said and done.

I guess I just look at this as short term pain for long term gain.



[Edited 2005-03-01 20:05:26]
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15747
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:57 am

Better yet, let's compare it to pre 9/11 contracts and where CAL pilots were.

C'mon now....that's comparing things that have absolutely no bearing on today's situation, like saying let's compare the price of oil in 1998 vs. today's prices. Or the price of Enron stock in 1999 vs. today.

Sure, you can wring your hands, shake your fist at the sky and scream bloody murder about it but it still doesn't change a darn thing about the reality of today's situation.

I honestly think this deal will enable CO to grow, securing EVERY employee's future and giving them better options (like more flexible schedules, bids and flight lines as more employees come onboard over time) in the long run - plus, you'll see wages come back as profits do.



[Edited 2005-03-01 20:08:02]
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Lono
Posts: 1136
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 5:47 pm

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:02 am

alphafalcon:
"And personally, I like the stock option plan-which, by the way, isn't just for you guys, it's for all of us. CO is making 10 million shares available for employees. I think that's a good incentive."

You should ask our friends at DL how well their stock option plan worked... airline stocks are worth zip these days.... DL employees based their retirement on DL stock options (Matching paid in DL stock)... now needless to say their retirement match is .... zip
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15747
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:19 am

Well its about time good old CAL feels the crunch.

AA767400, that comment was inappropriate. Why are you excited about the fact that CO was facing a problem?

You want someone to blame for the industry malaise? Blame LCCs like B6. Blame companies like UA and US who started this "race to the bottom" in payscales, abusing the bankruptcy laws like a $20 whore in the process. Blame the American consumer for believing they've got a God-given right to $99.00 each way fares ANYWHERE.

But don't blame a quality carrier like CO that does relatively well (compared to other legacy carriers) thanks to good service and caring people.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ewr757
Posts: 356
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2000 8:47 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:29 am

>>their pilots are the most professional in the business as far as I'm concerned. <<

Thank you. May I put in a shamless plug that we have always felt we were never compensated as such?

>>where we'll have to agree to disagree<<

No problem. I don't mind debating an opposing opinion with someone like you since you do not resort to such ameauterish attempts at
slander. You stick with the facts. Like you, I am just presenting a different view of the equation. Except for me it is real personal!


>>>AA - took a much larger paycut than you will
DL - took a much larger paycut than you will
UA - took a much larger paycut than you will
US - took a much larger paycut than you will
NW - took a much larger paycut than you will
AS - in negotiations; expected to take between a 20-35% paycut - again, much larger than your cut<<<

All true. However....you are forgetting that the baseline from which they all started was much higher than ours ever was. DL and NW with their concessions are still higher overall. Additionally, you can't compare UA and US.

>>right now it's a corporate need instead of a corporate want.<<

If so, we should see real, verified, leadership by example. It is hard to sell the troops on a basis for need when comparitive pay far exceeds their peers. (Falcon, if you are reading this, dont soil yourself. I don't care what they make until they come asking for money from from us)

>>I guess I just look at this as short term pain for long term gain<<

The problem is that this has been essentially told to the pilots over and over and over. It is getting to be like the fairy tale of the boy who cried wolf.

>>Sure, you can wring your hands, shake your fist at the sky and scream bloody murder about it but it still doesn't change a darn thing about the reality of today's situation.<<

Actually, I won't do any of that. If the TA is not to my liking, I'll vote no. I have no doubt todays situation is problematic, however tell me what good cuts have done at UAL? USAir? Again, if I see shared sacrifice, my vote will be a yes. Today's situation remember still has not stopped management from spending millions on their bonus programs.


Lono brought up a very good point. Ask any UAL pilot how much their stock is worth today.

[Edited 2005-03-01 20:30:57]
 
AA767400
Posts: 1894
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:30 am

Why are you excited about the fact that CO was facing a problem?

Not excited, just brings those who thought CO was invincible, to reality. Those who speak of meals on domestic flights on CO, where other airlines don't. CO cannot and will not be able to sustain such amenities in this environment, no one can.
"The low fares airline."
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15747
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:03 am

>>their pilots are the most professional in the business as far as I'm concerned. <<

Thank you. May I put in a shamless plug that we have always felt we were never compensated as such?


There's no shame in such a plug - I also feel that CO's pilots have historically been underpaid vs. the rest of the industry.

Unfortunately, the past is the past - and the present is the present. Meaning regrettably, it has no bearing on today's situation.

>>>AA - took a much larger paycut than you will
DL - took a much larger paycut than you will
UA - took a much larger paycut than you will
US - took a much larger paycut than you will
NW - took a much larger paycut than you will
AS - in negotiations; expected to take between a 20-35% paycut - again, much larger than your cut<<<


All true. However....you are forgetting that the baseline from which they all started was much higher than ours ever was. DL and NW with their concessions are still higher overall. Additionally, you can't compare UA and US.


I know, but still it doesn't matter at this point who was where. It's all about where everyone is today

>>right now it's a corporate need instead of a corporate want.<<

If so, we should see real, verified, leadership by example.


From what I've seen, management has already agreed to lead by example, taking paycuts larger than any single employee group has to date. IIRC, this also included forgoing bonuses, which means it's a real cut for them, not just a paper one.

Besides, I think CO's shown extraordinary leadership (similar to AS management, IMHO) by tackling costs head-on right now instead of waiting until they're at Chapter 11's door like AA, DL, UA and US did.

I just hope we start seeing the price of Jet-A head downward, and soon.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
drdivo
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:07 am

AA767400, I just bet you're wrong. CO will continue to position themselves as a premium product among all the carriers in the US, legacy or not. Their aircraft will remain clean and neat, their passengers fed during meal times, and their schedule tight and on time. If you read their financial reports, they clearly state that they are commanding a fare premium over other carriers based on their levels of service.
Respectfully - the Divo
 
AA767400
Posts: 1894
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:22 am

AA767400, I just bet you're wrong.

Its my opinion. And you have yours, bets or no bets. In my opinion CO can only hold on SO long with their full service theme.
"The low fares airline."
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15747
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:32 am

AA767400, I just bet you're wrong. CO will continue to position themselves as a premium product among all the carriers in the US, legacy or not. Their aircraft will remain clean and neat, their passengers fed during meal times, and their schedule tight and on time. If you read their financial reports, they clearly state that they are commanding a fare premium over other carriers based on their levels of service


I have to agree. CO can't afford to remove meals, pillows and other amenities because they'd position themselves on-par with AA, UA and other legacy majors. CO needs to continue to offer a service premium to continue commanding a higher average fare vs. the competition.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
7e72004
Posts: 3440
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 12:15 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:36 am

so does this mean that the order for the 787s will stand?  Big thumbs up
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
AA767400
Posts: 1894
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:43 am

I have to agree.

Of course you agree because you work for them. But trust me we the going gets tough, you will change your tune and want to cut where cuts need to be made.

I understand were you are coming from, but just like you said the American passenger wants a champagne service at a beer price. Therefore one cannot afford to spend money on amenities where the price just does not compare with it.
"The low fares airline."
 
Cory6188
Topic Author
Posts: 2710
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:29 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:54 am

Not everyone isn't willing to spend more to fly CO. Every year, my mother, brother, and I fly EWR-PBI to visit my aunt during teacher's convention in November. The flights on CO were $265.40 while Song from LGA was ~$202. Even still, my mom paid the extra $60 per person to stick with CO because she has been so pleased with them in the past. In all honesty, the EWR vs. LGA argument also played a factor, but the fact that it was CO was also a substantial factor - some people do pay a premium to stick with CO.

Another interesting side note. My parents won't even consider B6 in the future - we used them once to go to MCO - getting to JFK was a major drag (over an hour and fifteen minutes with traffic) as opposed to hopping on the Turnpike and getting to EWR in 35 minutes. T6 at JFK is also a depressing sight - at that time (2003), they only had like 3 places to eat in the whole terminal and a crummy gift shop - a far cry from the virtual shopping mall that's at EWR's C.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15747
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:01 am

I have to agree.

Of course you agree because you work for them.


I do? Funny - the ID badge around my neck clearly says "Alaska Airlines" on it - and the planes I put our customers on all have Eskimos on the tail!

Odd, seeing as I apparently work for CO...  Insane

Newsflash for you - one doesn't have to work for CO to like them and think what they're doing makes sense.

[Edited 2005-03-01 23:02:23]
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ANNOYEDFA
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:16 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:41 am

I got all worked up over nothing LOL. Sorry but once I read that post and didn't clearly read it I soon realized no one even voted yet lol. As far as I can see the Flight Attendants are all for a no vote especially the senior FAS. I am glad they are all for the no vote and I encourage it. Sorry but they can find a $500 million cut elsewhere..... The so little money they spend on meals for one should be cut except for trans con flights. People don't need food. They can purchase BOB and that will also add revenue. All they do is b*tch and moan that it's too small or not good enough. OK! So then you get nothing! The 767's in business first are 2x1x2... How about 2x2x2 right there alone on the international flights is excellent added revenue considering the price of the seats.

Falcon84: As far as you responding to my post I stick to it although it was quickly typed and not well thought out. As to my education I have a associate degree that pertains to the airline industry and the day I decide to go any further if or when is not your business. Pay cuts are just simply not an option considering so few cuts have been made elsewhere. When the company cuts service to the point that pay cuts are needed then ask for them but there is still a long way to go. If SWA can pay their Flight Attendants over $50.00/hour at top out so can everyone else.Oh and trust me considering there is no 7/30 rules they fly as much as possible. Looks like it's time to start looking more into how SWA works.

As far as the pilots go as I sit here looking at the underinflated pay scale I don't see where there is room for cuts http://www.airlinepilotpay.com/cal/cal.htm
Their pay scales were never anywhere inflated as say Delta's were.

EWR757: Correct me if I am wrong but you are guaranteed 75 hours a month and anything flown after that is not paid for but it goes into a bank to be used for furture time off. I could swear I was told this. So now tell me if this is true and this is directed towards Falcon84 how is it possible for the pilots to be making more then upper managment when their bonuses alone sometimes are their salary for the year?
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
slider
Posts: 7617
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:57 am

The kind of internecine fighting and, to be quite candid, intra-company bullshit and class envy I've read herein is disturbing.

1) This company has worked too hard operationally, financially, and yes, even spiritually in terms of modifying its culture over the past 10 years to have this kind of rancor. Moreover, there shouldn't be a single person who works at CO who feigns ignorance over the numbers. Everyone knows. Everyone was briefed, the company has done a stellar job of communicating with employees, not obfuscating the issue, and only coming to employees when it was absolutely necessary. For someone to say that pay cuts aren't necessary now is, apologies in advance, ignorant of the facts.

2) CO's component of CASM that is labor--on both an aggregate basis and individual workgroup basis--needs to be competitive. Note that the cuts STILL keep CO employees above some other majors and well above the LCC scales.

3) Without singling out EWR757, I'll answer the question as to what have the cuts done at other carriers? Well, their cuts were a matter of survival, if not mandate due to bankruptcy proceedings. We haven't gotten that bad, having lost the LEAST amount of the so-called legacy carriers since 2001.

Moreover, our cuts are enabling us to 1) stay solvent, 2) maintain debt payments already on the books, including mandatory pension contributions and still maintain the necessary cash balance we need, and 3) most importantly, GROW. Yes, grow. We're GROWING our way out of it. Not contraction, not retreat, not retrenchment....attack, going on the offensive, not only maintaining our domestic market share, but protecting our hubs and opening new markets internationally on a very aggressive basis.

3) On that topic of growth, that is the very thing that's kept the LCCs able to keep doing what they do. If they stop growing, they die. They need the ASM growth to add new employees at lower scales, increase incremental revenues, etc. CO is doing much the same thing--you add aircraft, open new markets, that's job security, augmentation of what is already a formidable and diverse global route map and market coverage, and adding new jobs.

There is misinformation out there (and I don't know how) about the A/C order. That somehow the pay cuts are being used to buy the new aircraft. Boeing has these planes and is in essence giving us them for the cost of taking over payments. that's tantamount to owning an apartment building, and having the building across the street open up without having to make any down payment, and only make monthly mortgage payments, but you can start collecting rent from day one. The 757-300s, 737-800s are absolutely a sweetheart of a deal.

***************************************************

Two options and only two options, and they are mutually exclusive:

ONE: don't get the cuts and we shrink to maintain liquidity, lose market share, lose jobs, hinder long term career growth and security. The 737-500s are a perfect example--they're a bloodbath of red ink. The reconfiguration will help stave that revenue shortfall certainly, but shrinking means parking those bastards first. That means fewer mechanics, fewer pilots, fewer flight attendants, etc, etc, etc....

TWO: Get the cuts, maintain our position, grow, and ADD jobs. Instead of parking airplanes, we'd ADD them, which means MORE pilots, more left seat gigs open up, more flight attendants, more people to support them, more revenue to make us prosperous.

I love CO, trust our leadership, trust our people and by Working Together we can keep that going. Each employee should possess the facts clearly when voting on the contract TA's. Don't buy into rumors, peer pressure, misinformation or disinformation, you know what needs to be done.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15747
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:00 am

Looks like it's time to start looking more into how SWA works

Annoyedfa, in the mid 90s Alaska Airlines' flight attendants wanted a contract like WN's. They were the first in the industry to implement CHAOS work stoppages to achieve their goal, when AS management gave in and adopted WN's inflight contract WORD FOR WORD.

Today, AS inflight is one of the groups currently negotiating for a new contract, and it's looking like they'll take either a paycut and/or some severe workrule changes to help save the company money.

Why? Because EVERYONE is bleeding red ink right now, and WN will eventually be swimming in it as well with their current cost structure too if things don't get better regarding fuel. The only thing saving WN from huge losses are their fuel hedges - they've got 100% of their fuel bill under contract this year for just south of $30/bbl. Next year, it's around 50% (IIRC) at something like $34/bbl.

After that, they're buying at the same prices everyone else is, barring any changes.


Now, you've made some sweeping, grandiose statements about "other cuts" that CO could make to get the $500M in savings. Pray tell, where would those be?

Meals? Not enough of a savings to be meaningful, not to mention it would erode CO's ability to offer a premium service and command higher revenues.

Aircraft? Sure, but then you'd have to cut employees as well.

Maintenance? Not on your life! Safety is job 1 for any airline.

Pillows? Blankets? Again, not enough of a savings and it kills CO's position as a premium carrier.

Fuel? Great, but jets don't run without it - or did you want to just park all the planes and turn them into diners?

That leaves wages and benefits.

Now by all means, if you have any better ideas (y'know, ones that ACTUALLY WORK) other ways to help CO save $500M annually, please let the folks in Houston know - I'm sure they'd name a shiny new B-787 after you at very least if your ideas were doable!  Big grin

Problem is, people who do this sort of planning for a living have already examined things backwards and forwards and have arrived at the same conclusion - wages and benefits have to be trimmed a bit, sadly.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ANNOYEDFA
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:16 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:57 am

AS Flight Attendants are severly under paid and any pay cut would be simply not be possibly. They start out with if $15.00 which is a joke on their part. I am well aware that SWA is making money right now mostly on part because of their hedging. I know I sound ignorant but I just don't care if all airlines continue to fail and fall apart maybe something or someone will finally step in and say enough is enough. I have a friend who started out with EA back in the 70's and she said it to me again today that after deregulation the airline industry was done and I totally agree. Maybe it's time to take some lessons from the past.

Premium carrier please..... You get a meal. Other then that we are the same as everyone else sorry but true. I still don't agree with pay cuts and unless there is a snap back I would vote no. No matter what they had to offer.

Aircraft? 73-500's they got a bad deal on cut first class like they are or cut it completely to make the short runs it does profitable. When the leases are up replace them with the E170/190 family.

Maintenance? Out source!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Pillows? Blankets? They are filthy and disease infeasted get ride of them!!!

Fuel? They need it!

76-200/400: Add the extra middle seats. Money is money they will still fly CO. That's a few thousand on ever INT'L flight.

Terminal E in IAH who paid for it? Co or the city of Houston? Why did they have to go all out knowing they were cash strapped and were going to be for the next few years? Also why did they need a Immagration facility that could process over 40,000 people in one hour when that amount will never be seen in a hour. Now if CO did pay for all of this... Why did the cuts not start from here?

About that shiny new 7E7 I could careless about them right now and so should the company they still have plenty of time to do so. What they should be worried about is where more cuts could be made before having to ask for consessions and still not return to profitability.
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
AA767400
Posts: 1894
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:22 am

Ok EA CO AS, You win, you are right,I am wrong,You are king. So you don't work for CO. You win, come and visit us again soon!  Nuts
"The low fares airline."
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15747
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:32 am

I have a friend who started out with EA back in the 70's and she said it to me again today that after deregulation the airline industry was done and I totally agree.

My mom started at EA in '63 - and she, at age 62, working as an agent in PHX will be the first to tell anyone that a small cut now is FAR better than a big cut later. The industry isn't done, but it's not what it once was.

Premium carrier please..... You get a meal. Other then that we are the same as everyone else

You're right...OTHER than that - meaning CO isn't the same as everyone else - they're a premium carrier.

Aircraft? 73-500's they got a bad deal on cut first class like they are or cut it completely to make the short runs it does profitable.

They're refitting the 735s to make more money out of 'em.

When the leases are up replace them with the E170/190 family.

That takes even more money, though.  Big grin

Maintenance? Out source!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Brilliant idea! Let's put a few hundred people out on the street so you don't have to take a small paycut.

Gotta love that "It's all about ME - screw everyone else!" mentality.  Insane

What they should be worried about is where more cuts could be made before having to ask for consessions

Have you been asleep for every employee presentation, e-mail, CO Times, etc - or did you just ignore them? The reason I ask is that the company HAS looked at every conceivable option for cuts and savings before asking for concessions.

If you don't understand that, it's because you choose not to - and I can't help you with that.



[Edited 2005-03-02 02:03:07]
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Zoomosapien
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:43 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:33 am

"ANNOYEDFA 'I know I sound ignorant but I just don't care if all airlines continue to fail and fall apart maybe something or someone will finally step in and say enough is enough'"



Wow...how do you respond to something like that? You don't I guess.
Its funny how some folks live in thier own alternate reality in which every thing "they think" makes sense.

The reality is we have to consider whats going on in the industry and the steps that other airlines have taken to reduce costs.

Accomplishing all of your thoughts will only lead to the loss of jobs for Chelsea, Maintenance, FA, Pilots, Agents and everyone else in the Co team.

Question??If you were imprisoned and i fed you less than what you need to stay alive, would you cut off both your legs to stay well nourished?....It just doesnt work that way.
I don't know you, and you don't know the half of it.
 
ContnlEliteCMH
Posts: 1386
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:19 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:16 am

First post! Woo hoo! I've been a lurker for at least two years now. As the username would indicate, I am an elite on Continental. I will likely fly almost 200 segments this year, all of them on business, none of them on walk-up fares. I admire Continental, and I picked them for a reason:

*After* the ticket is sold, the customer experience is the most important factor in getting return business. And as my signature indicates, repeat customers are the bedrock of profitability. Waaaaay too many people on this site believe that walk-up fares (or the decline thereof) are what has stripped profitability from the majors, but they are wrong -- way wrong.

This thread is so good that I had to join. I want to address my comments to three different contributors.

First, Continental must not strip the amenities. American Airlines is a fool if they think cutting pillows is any serious way to cut costs. The world's largest airline, and they are cutting pillows. Riiiiiiight. I fly Continental, almost regardless of price, because of the customer experience. Mostly, I get where I have to go, on time, with the best customer service around. I avoid American because of such tomfoolery as "cutting pillows to save costs." That, and flying through the dump called Chicago is a bad choice, every time.

Second, to EWR757... You have the right to vote however you wish, for any reason you wish. I think your requirement that everybody sacrifice for the common good to be quite reasonable. But I do find it remarkably inconsistent, in the following fashion. You insist that the deal you are getting here should be compared to the other majors' contracts. Fine. Though odd to those of us who operate in more of a free market mode, you want the pay of peers at your competitors to determine what's "fair" for you. Again, fine. Then you readily apply a totally different standard for the management at Continental. You don't care what they make relative to the industry; you only care what their cut is. It seems to me that, to be consistent, you should not worry about how much cut they take, or what form the cut takes, but rather how they are paid relative to management at your competitors. If I'm wrong, please tell me how. I'm all ears.

Finally, to AnnoyedFA. Get another job. Do it now. Your complaints and situation are, simply put, pitiless. You are NOT a victim. Nobody makes you work where you work, for whom you work, and at what you work. I quit my job about nine months ago, and I had no other job. Why? To usurp your username, I was AnnoyedConsultant. I did what anybody of good conscience and free will should and must do: I left and found something else. As I said, pitiless. I hope you aren't working any of my flights, and if you are, I hope you don't take it out on me. I'll make your annoyed day far, far worse.

I really think that Continental is one of the best experiences around. They are seldom the cheapest flight to anywhere out of CMH. I don't care. A $10, $20, even $50 fare difference won't make me poor, but a bad customer experience will drive me away.

See, the issue here isn't whether or not I'm willing to pay $10 more per ticket to make Continental profitable. I read that far too often as well. While it isn't this paying customer's right to fly round trip transcon for $99, it *is* my right to pay only what the market will bear. I'm going to spend between $10k and $15k on airfare this year. That's a foregone conclusion unless airfares were to skyrocket, in which I would either travel half as much, or drive between Columbus and Atlanta each week.

So the real issue is, "Who is going to get my money?" If your flights aren't 100% full (and nobody's are), then attracting me as a customer is not an issue of covering your costs with the fare you charge. It's an issue of not only taking my money, but simultaneously preventing one of your competitors from taking it.

If Continental cuts my amenities, why would I fly them? I would fly Delta. It's a worse FF program. It's a worse customer experience (yes, I fly them when I get interlined.) It's foodless. It's got those ugly, ugly new seat covers. (Did I mention they were u-g-l-y?) But it's a direct flight.

But it's not only about price. It's about on time performance. Continental is king. It's about not losing my baggage. Continental is king. It's about an all-Boeing fleet (mainline). It's about being a good neighbor in noise, pollution, and fuel consumption. And it's about how I'm treated at check-in (or rather, how I don't have to talk to anybody), how I'm treated at the gate when my flight is delayed enough to miss my connection, and how I'm treated on board the aircraft. Again, Continental is king, at least in my experience. Long live the king! I *will* pay extra for these things. I *do* pay extra for these things.

Heck, sometimes I even fly through Newark instead of Cleveland, just so I can upgraded. They offer it as reward, and for the money I'm giving them this year, they are taking care of me!
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
777gk
Posts: 1488
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2000 3:04 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:22 am

Compared to other majors, we DO outsource quite a bit of our maintenance. We don't do a whole hell of a lot of heavy mx in-house, evidenced by the 777s we leave in HKG for HAECO and the 757s that go have their C(+) checks done in the U.K.

I do not agree with those saying the meals have to go. Doing so would cannibalize a profitable portion of our business model, and a distinctive aspect of our product. Chelsea makes us money, and now we are reaping the rewards of the decision not to sell off our catering arm when other carriers were. Buy-on-board would require the implementation of additional infrastructure that would result in additional cost outlay. I haven't seen any data regarding the profit margin of such a program, so I won't comment on the value of it.

Changing the BF configuration on the 767 would be another major outlay of funds, since an entirely new shipset of seats would be required. The 767 cabin will not accomodate 6-across 21" seats. It's not as efficient a use of space as possible, but the BusinessFirst product certainly isn't what's hurting us right now, and "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Regarding our contract negotiations, I think most of us are much happier with the revised proposal. I was glad to see our colleagues' demonstration in Houston prove effective, and it helped cultivate more of a sense of confidence in the new leadership. Ultimately, I believe a "yes" vote (overall the best path with everyone's interest in mind) will prevail and we will be on our way to sustained profitability in the near future while many of our stablemates continue to languish.

To the above poster, the CO Elite in CMH-

We appreciate your business, and you are on point in your assessment that the "habitual" flyer is our bread-and-butter. That's why I'm more open to taking a minor hit in pay to ensure that our product remains consistent. You're only as good as what you're selling, and if we strip our product down to the bare bones we risk the loyalty of customers like yourself. I only hope that our best customers realize the sacrifices we are making to maintain Continental in its current form, and continue to give us their business as we weather this latest rough spot. On behalf of all of us out here, I have to say thanks for flying with us.



[Edited 2005-03-02 02:34:32]

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos