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drdivo
Posts: 114
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:26 am

>>As far as the pilots go as I sit here looking at the underinflated pay scale I don't see where there is room for cuts http://www.airlinepilotpay.com/cal/cal.htm
Their pay scales were never anywhere inflated as say Delta's were. <<

What I'm wondering is what they're teaching people in schools these days; apparently, it's not reading and simple math.

The ONLY pilots who are higher paid than Continental's as a group are NWA's 747 pilots, and Delta's. There are variations within the center of the charts as to hourly rates, but Continental's pilots are the only ones without a "B" scale, and with a defined benefit pension plan (that is fully funded, by the way.)

Did you notice that Northwest's B-scalers have NO pension?

Your evidence contradicts your assertion.
Respectfully - the Divo
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
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RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:42 am

The ONLY pilots who are higher paid than Continental's as a group are NWA's 747 pilots, and Delta's

FWIW, I think EWR757 meant CO's pay was substantially lower before the salary purges in the years immediately following 9/11. Prior to that, CO's pilots were at the lower end of the pay spectrum among majors.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ANNOYEDFA
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:16 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:48 am

DRDIVO: If you had seen the pay scales of the majors prior to pay cuts they were all much higher then Continentals pilots and if maybe ypu read what I wrote I said they were uninflated and there is NO NEED FOR CUTS! Maybe work rule changes to make them actually fly more. For example a pilot DH from IAH-LGW to work one leg to EWR and then DH back down to IAH. That's close to 14 hours of DH time alone totally unneccary. It's things like that, that raise costs and waste money.

777GK: CO is the only airline that had 2x1x2 every other airline except for AA because they still have a First and Biz on their 200 series has 2x2x2. If it means more money in the long run and them asking for less of a cut put the seats in.

ContnlEliteCMH: Pitty? Far from asking for it. I'm annoyed because I can and will be and it doesn't effect my job in anyway. How you treat me is how I will treat you right in return and trust me I would be glad to have you on one of my flights because I would do the EXACT thing I am paid to do. Saftey, a soda and your crackers, off and on. Nothing more, nothing less if you don't like it oh well. No matter if any Flight Attendant goes out of their way or not we are not rewarded in anyway. So now tell me why go out of my way? Also I would love a break down on how you would make my already ANNOYED DAY WORSE? TICKLE ME!

ALSO........Terminal E in IAH who paid for it? Co or the city of Houston? Why did they have to go all out knowing they were cash strapped and were going to be for the next few years? Also why did they need a Immagration facility that could process over 40,000 people in one hour when that amount will never be seen in a hour. Now if CO did pay for all of this... Why did the cuts not start from here?

ANYONE KNOW???
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
ContnlEliteCMH
Posts: 1386
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:19 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:49 am

Quoting 777gk (reply 51):
To the above poster, the CO Elite in CMH-

We appreciate your business, and you are on point in your assessment that the "habitual" flyer is our bread-and-butter. That's why I'm more open to taking a minor hit in pay to ensure that our product remains consistent. You're only as good as what you're selling, and if we strip our product down to the bare bones we risk the loyalty of customers like yourself. I only hope that our best customers realize the sacrifices we are making to maintain Continental in its current form, and continue to give us their business as we weather this latest rough spot. On behalf of all of us out here, I have to say thanks for flying with us.


You're welcome, but I'm not doing you any favors. You have earned my loyalty. The times when my flights have been delayed, you rebook me on a partner. The Elite desk is fabulous. I love getting on the plane first, to avoid the crush of dingalings who can't figure out how to take off their jackets and stow them. And the Website is marvelous. Potentially the only one better is AirTran's, and even then, only parts. When I have to rent cars and book hotels, I do that through Continental.com. I hope you're making money off it. I love it when people and companies who provide me with value, make a profit.

There were some items in the pilot's proposed contract that got my attention. Chief among them, but not really mentioned yet, is the switch from a defined benefit to a defined contribution plan. This is *huge*. Though I think the match percentages are too high, they're manageable. Pensions are flat out killing airlines, automakers, and anybody else who has them. As retirement plans go, they pay the worst and bear the highest cost.

In fact, it is my belief that oil prices will never substantially recede from their present high. Any drop will be temporary; higher prices are likely. The oil prices are not a supply-side problem; they are a demand-side issue. That demand will only go up, and significantly. If Continental weathers this storm (and I think they will), not having a pension millstone around their neck will put them in a very competitive position into the future, particularly if fuel cost pressures increase.

Does anybody have any more details on this change? Will there be a buy-out of existing pension obligations for currently-working pilots? My father's company did this 20 years ago, and it has been the saving grace in its continued operation. It's a steel company. That it's still around, and still profitable, is a testament to the power of eliminating pensions.
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
ContnlEliteCMH
Posts: 1386
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:19 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:59 am

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (reply 54):
ContnlEliteCMH: Pitty? Far from asking for it. I'm annoyed because I can and will be and it doesn't effect my job in anyway. How you treat me is how I will treat you right in return and trust me I would be glad to have you on one of my flights because I would do the EXACT thing I am paid to do. Saftey, a soda and your crackers, off and on. Nothing more, nothing less if you don't like it oh well. No matter if any Flight Attendant goes out of their way or not we are not rewarded in anyway. So now tell me why go out of my way? Also I would love a break down on how you would make my already ANNOYED DAY WORSE? TICKLE ME!


Denial isn't just a river in Egypt. You don't want pity? Every word that flows from your keyboard effectively says "Poor me. Woe is me. Look at this poor, underappreciated, underpaid, persecuted flight attendant."

Why go out of your way? Because in an environment of fierce competition, pride and service is what makes the difference. Your inability to see the rewards for effort above-and-beyond is clear testament to your own myopia, not to a shortage of rewards. Believe it or not, some of us are in far riskier positions than you. Some of us are not only the contact between our business and our customers; we are the business, too. If we screw up, there is no customer service rep to say "I'm sorry; here's a voucher." Some of us are much more aware of competitive pressures than you are. Maybe this makes us more aware of rewards. Maybe it lays bare the reasons to go above-and-beyond. Maybe you haven't had such experiences, but you ARE asking for pity.

As for how I would make your day far, far worse: It's easy. You find the wound and rub it. Hard. Yours would be easy to spot, from the first couple of words out of your mouth or attitude that flows from your demeanor.

Quit whining and do something to make your life better, like find another job. You aren't a victim.

[Edited 2005-03-02 03:20:41]
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
ANNOYEDFA
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:16 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 11:22 am

LOLLLLLLLLLLLL I love it. People like you give my day a challenge and people like you also make my coworkers and my own day miserable and that's why you get what you give. Pitty no old man far from. I'm just a bitch and enjoy every minute of it. You keep rubbing and someday you might get a crew that will rub you right off the jet. Remember we go by a 3 and your out rule. We don't have to take harrassment from anyone. Such as you say you do. All I will say is I will do as much as I can to make sure as many people I can get to check a no vote. I loved hereing 5 women in one sitting this morning say I don't care what they offer it's NO!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 11:50 am

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (reply 57):
I'm just a bitch and enjoy every minute of it.


Well, well, well, AnnoyedFA and I finally agree on something . . . .

I think CO is heading in the right direction, and will come through this in very fine fashion. CO has learned to take care of it's troops - and in turn, the troops take care of the passengers. The passengers are the bottom line. There are a few folks who will likely go out of their way to ignore a passenger - regardless of the carrier . . . our friend AnnoyingFA is a pretty good example . . . . that is inescapable. I have never had a negative experience with CO, even when things didn't turn out as predicted (delayed, canceled, wx, mx) CO took good care of me.

Lastly, AnnoyingFA, I agree - you need to find a different line of work.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Cory6188
Topic Author
Posts: 2710
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:29 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:06 pm

Okay, AnnoyedFA, I'm going to be entirely rational here. To preface my statement, I am 16 years old, and obviously I don't work for CO. My only experience with employment is working as a lifeguard at our town swim club in the summer, so in all fairness, I have no experience what life is like in the "real world" of jobs and careers. The only people I've ever truly had to work for are my teachers. Okay, having said that, I have to ask you something.

If you don't like the fact that your pay is being cut, I can totally understand where you're coming from. Last summer, I made $7/hour. If I were to come back this summer and my manager, Patty, were to tell me, that I was now only going to make $6.30/hour (a 10% cut), surely I'd be annoyed. However, if the case were that the pool was going to close due to financial constraints, I would have to grin and bear it, or maybe even frown and bear it. I'd rather have a job paying less than no job at all.

Obviously, I don't have nearly as many financial obligations as you do - I don't have to pay for food, shelter, or basically anything. My money from work is my disposible income - the movies, extra clothes that I want but don't need, etc. Clearly, my view on income is going to be different, but if you are so miserable with your job, and you think that management is out to screw the employees, why not quit?

Apparently, the F/A's at regional carriers aren't exactly raking in the cash, so I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to find a job that would pay the same amount and would make you happier to go to work every day. I have a lot of respect for F/A's, and I know that their daily jobs are rough, but if you don't like it, I find it hard to believe that there isn't some other career out there that can suit you, especially at the lower end of the payscale.

Finally, where would these extra cuts come from? Okay, let's say that CO did cut all meals on everything but transcons and they got rid of all the pillows and blankets. Hey, they might lose their premium image, but then again, let's assume that it won't have that much of an effect on revenues because "everyone else is doing it". Whether or not that is truly the case remains to be seen. But for now let's assume so. Fuel cannot be changed - hedging is not a financially viable option at the moment. Management already forgave their bonuses and took substantial paycuts. If you were to continue cutting their salaries, they would jump ship for companies that would compensate them better for their work.

You recommended changing BusinessFirst to 2-2-2 - I guess it could be a plan, but go to the CO forum on FlyerTalk.com and pay attention to the threads about BF. These are the people that are CO's bread-and-butter - those that spend the most on the airline - you know, the Y fares. They all repeatedly say how much they like CO's BF product because of the wide seat and the nice configuration. You said that the revenue was there anyway, so why not add seats? How do you know that CO could continue to command a revenue premium if suddenly, their product isn't so special anymore? What happens when all those people that spent $5,000+ on their EWR-LGW flight in J because of the nice config decide that CO is now no better than, let's say, BA or VS? Suddenly, all that great BF revenue is no longer coming into the company, making cuts even more necessary.

So what do you propose? Should CO retire the whole 735 fleet? Then how would you respond to all of those captains and F/A's that no longer have jobs due to decreased flights and working hours?

Let's say, hypothetically speaking, that this didn't pass. March, April, May, etc. pass, and CO is still paying the same wages they always have. Now we come to 4Q 2005, when CO has many debt and pension payments due. Suddenly, CO can't afford everything anymore, and yup, you guessed it, a trip to the bankruptcy court in Houston. Now, the judge gets to decide how much money you're going to make, and I would think it would be a safe estimate that you would end up with less than you would be getting taken out of your paycheck now.

You mentioned outsourcing. Unfortunately, it's already being done. Not much more that can be done in the way of cuts. As it is, and as 777gk mentioned, the 777 heavy maintenance is done in HKG, and the 757s have maintainence done in the UK. If all of the expensive costly maintainence is being done overseas, what more do you want? When the plane goes mechanical while sitting at the gate in EWR, how do you expect them to fix it? Will they ship it by boat to El Salvador to be fixed? How would your pax respond?

So what would you propose CO do? I'm not attempting to be antagonistic here, I just would like to know how you believe that CO should handle the situation. And by the way, if you are one of those F/A's that simply does the service and nothing more, you will leave pax with a bad taste in their mouth about CO. Whether it's CO or COEx, people don't see the difference, and your negative attitude on a flight from EWR-DCA might make them think twice about booking that full-J ticket to LGW on CO. Which in turn would lead to less revenue, and then an even stronger need for paycuts. So think about it.

[Edited 2005-03-02 04:08:24]
 
ewr767
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:01 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:14 pm

I must applaud the contnelite post. As a flight attendant and someone with common sense, everything that you said in your post is accurate, to the point, and on point. I thank you for your business. Why some people don't understand that in order to make money you have to spend money, which is business 101 is beyond me. I also agree since we are the only airline that still serves meals in coach for instance this sets us apart from our competitors. My experience as a flight attendant as far as delays and cancellations, continental is the best. Unless there is a major malfunction (computer, atc weather), we are an ontime airline, there is something to be said for that. As well as still offering pillows, blankets pre assigned seats, upgrades for our most loyal, etc. I to don't wish to take a pay cut. But the reality is, we are loosing money, and we have to get our costs aligned with everyone else or we will be at a disadvantage compared to our competitors. The last thing I want to say is that I am sick and tired of everyone complaining about how much management makes and about them cutting there salaries. The people in management made life choices that put them in the positions they are in. I made the choice to do what I do and saw the contract and what this job offered me as far as salary. I chose to take the position. To then turn around and B**** because my CEO makes whatever is absolutely ridiculous. I do not agree that the managers should profit (bonuses) at our expense, and I think they addressed that issue. I think in any company their is a hierarchy that's starts with the CEO and trickles down to the minions. I'm sure the people that clean the planes say the same thing about the flight attendants that we make so much money and that we should be taking more of a cut. Something to think about. I'm just glad that I can still hold my head up high and still appreciate my customers and treat them with respect and thank god that I still have my job. The job that affords me the flexibility to work as much or little as I can fanagle and get paid what I do for opening coke cans. Anyway that's my 2 cents
 
FlyHoss
Posts: 534
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:20 pm

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:30 pm

ContnlEliteCMH,
As a CO pilot, I appreciate your thoughts and I'm glad you've taken the time to express them. Also, I'd like to thank you for your writing skills and abilities, your grammar and your spelling. It's sad, but those are increasingly rare skills these days.
Thank you for your business, too.
These are challenging times for CO and the industry. I'm waiting for the details of the tentative agreement before making my decision and casting my vote.
I'm very often reminded of the old (Chinese?) curse, "May you live in interesting times." We're facing many interesting weeks, and perhaps, months.
A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:48 pm

I think it is hypocritical of management to bestow upon themselves hundreds of millions in bonuses while many pilots have not had a raise in over 5 years.

If you want a bonus, EWR757, get into management, otherwise drop it-you sound like my five year old throwing a tantrum.

And poor boy-no raise, but you still make as good a living as 90% of the people in this country, don't you. If you made nothing, I might have some sympathy for you. But you make an outstanding living, so your crying-especially since your paycut %-wise, is less than mine-is like putting an ice cube on a hot stove-it has no affect on me. It's just crybaby stuff.

Thank you. May I put in a shamless plug that we have always felt we were never compensated as such?

Always worried what "the Jones'" are getting, eh, EWR757? That doesnt' bother me as much as you. You're handsomely compensated, but you cry and whine like you're on minimum wage. Boo hoo.

Pay cuts are just simply not an option considering so few cuts have been made elsewhere.

Question: what part of $2 billion in cost-cutting over the last three years do you NOT understand, bright boy? Your associate degree certainly didn't give you any more intelligence, did it? Or have you simply ignored the DNU over the last few years, ticking off the cost-cutting measures CO has put into effect.

AS Flight Attendants are severly under paid and any pay cut would be simply not be possibly.

Talk about someone who lives in a dreamworld. The man said they will be taking cuts, yet somehow you know better? I doubt it.

I know I sound ignorant but I just don't care if all airlines continue to fail and fall apart

What's the old saying? "Better to keep one's mouth closed, and have people wondering if you're a fool, or open it, and remove all doubt"?

Translation: you are very ignorant of this industry.

Gotta love that "It's all about ME - screw everyone else!" mentality

You got that right, EA CO AS. You have Ewr757, who is so worried about his portfolio that he's rather stick it to other employees who would lose their jobs if we shrink, instead of seeing the logic of wage concessions in a time of high fuel prices, falling ticket prices, skyrocketing fees and taxes, and business people who usually buy the Y and H fares, not flying. He's in it for himself. He's only a company man when the company is doing well, and he can grab more money. When the company is in trouble, he cries like a baby and hides behind his union.

Then there's the Annoyedfa. A kid in this industry, who, in all honesty, doesn't have the first clue where CO was when I started, and what it's become, and what many people would like to see it remain-a very good airline. He has no clue, as he's shown, about any detail of this business, and should, in all reality, get a real job, and find out there that he has it pretty damn good doing what he's doing.

Neither one give a shit about the company-not one bit. It's only about them. Fortunately, I think you'll see, there's less of these whining crybabies at CO than there are people who may not like the pay cuts, like me, but see what's going on around them, and can see a lot worse alternatives.

LOLLLLLLLLLLLL I love it. People like you give my day a challenge and people like you also make my coworkers and my own day miserable and that's why you get what you give.

People like him, my friend, are the backbone of any profits we make. And it's people like you who drive away people like him, and that's why you need to get out of this industry posthaste.

To then turn around and B**** because my CEO makes whatever is absolutely ridiculous.

You go on my RR. You hit it right on the head, my friend. Well said.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ANNOYEDFA
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:16 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:13 pm

Looks like the company might have to shrink then till they can make money in their current state. I think many people will enjoy their time off while on unemployment!

Question: what part of $2 billion in cost-cutting over the last three years do you NOT understand, bright boy? Your associate degree certainly didn't give you any more intelligence, did it? Or have you simply ignored the DNU over the last few years, ticking off the cost-cutting measures CO has put into effect.

Here's my questions where did the money come from for the over done Terminal E in IAH? Why did it take high fuel prices and 9/11 for these $2 billion in cuts to be made? Why did they ever waste an extra $2 billion yearly? That money could of been in the bank all along. When the airline was making tons of money where was this extra $2 billion going? In who's pockets? Since the only thing cut from inflight service is special meals on shorter flights I sure know that didn't cost $2 billion. Did it come from out sourcing? Tell me where these cuts came from? Management?

Ewr767: As a Flight Attendant also with common sense seems like your spending money to make money doesn't seem to be working. If it did the company would obviously be making money by now. The whole meal thing that sets the company apart well it doesn't seem to be going very well. Look in the posting on trip reports for one you have people asking for BOB because they would rather spend a few more bucks to get real food. Look at passenger feed back and when your serving the meals do you not listen to what the people say? I sure do? By the time I get to the end of the plane it's aggravating. If they can cut these amenities and ask for less money from employees along with a snap back to the old scales then that would be something to think about. People not only fly CO because it's a SO called "Premium Carrier" but for one it's the has a strong hold in EWR and IAH. People are willing to pay a few bucks more rather then travel to JFK, and LGA. In IAH it's just a territory hub. If you feel you are over paid for just cracking open cans of coke well then you go give your yes vote and more power to you.

Falcon84: You know what I do care about myself always have and always will. I for one do have a REAL JOB with a real choice and I choose to stay because I can do as I please and have few to answer to. I will never stop flying simply because of the benefits which are almost gone. Once those cease to exist is the day I will no longer have a need for flying although I love it and it's the passengers who for one run the airline with their money and two can make it one miserable place. I'm just about tired of all these posts.

It's my opinion of what should be done and I am entiltled to that. If you want to except pay cuts you go right ahead but then again you had no choice. Union people do I only hope people will vote NO and preserve the money they make. If not it just shows in the future when sh*t hit's the fan the employees are willing to do the same damn job for a whole lot less. It's taking steps back not forward. I thought the airline was run on a Go Forward plan but apparently it's not or maybe the plan was simply to forward too fast in such bad times. No one can still answer where the $$$ came from for Terminal E.

SWA may have fuel hedged but they are still making large sums of money and would most likely still atleast break even if they didn't as I read in a report from their CEO months ago..... Yet they offer nothing but cattle call seating. So much for being a "Premium Carrier".......
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
copter808
Posts: 1384
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:14 pm

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:17 pm

ANNOYEDFA,

Know what? I'm kinda annoyed with you! What part of the picture don't you understand? You WILL be taking a pay cut, either now or later. How much will it be? Depends on when you get it--could be anywhere from 10% to 100%! Even the Union can't get money where there is none!

Can we cut in other areas first? Sure, we could cut the number of FAs, maybe some pilots too. Is that what you want? Oh, another thing, we could get rid of the ramp folks and have the FAs load and unload the airplanes! Bet you'll really love it when you have to deplane, walk half way across the airport, and marshal the airplane into the gate--during a blizzard. If we aren't able to keep up our standards of service, that's exactly what you'll get.

CO simply cannot continue to spend more than they receive--only the Government(s) can do that.

If you're unable to change your attitude, do all of us a favor and move to another job. Maybe you'll be happier, or maybe you'll find that CO wasn't so bad after all. I'm not happy about the cuts either, but I WILL NOT take it out on the passengers--regardless of how little they may have paid for their ticket. How do you think you would feel if you went to McDonald's and ordered a well done hamburger--only to receive one which was nearly raw. Why? Because the cook thought he should be paid more!

CO cannot continue to lose money, regardless of what "other" airlines pay their employees. If they fail to get the pay cuts, you run the risk of not only taking larger cuts later, but seeing the loss of you pension and flight benefits if the company fails.

ANNOYEDFA, I'm lucky, I have 2 jobs. There are occasional down sides to both of them--and if I really wanted, I could spend hours talking about it--I have the opportunity to quit and find other employment. I prefer to think of my glass as being half full--not half empty, so I'll stay where I am.

A note to the Pilots--

I was at the IAH CEO briefing last month. When I saw all the pilots, in uniform, walk single file into the room and sit together, I really expected trouble. You folks were great! You had one speaker who asked the questions and was very courteous and respectful toward management. Very professionally done!
 
bigb
Posts: 1130
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 5:11 pm

For you information annoyedfa, CO needs Terminal E at IAH otherwise, delays flights will occur due to aircrafts waiting on gates to become AVAILABE. Second, HAS (Houston Airport System) funded the FIS building project. It wouldn't surprise me if HAS payed for Terminal E upfront while CO pays them back.

from ContnlEliteCMH, EA AS CO, Cory (thats my name too btw!), EWR767, Falcon, and Slider, all you guys welcome to my RU list.

Being a Houston native/college student former Airport employee (at HOU), I do most of my traveling on CO when I fly to visit family and peeps around the nation. My sister does most (almost all) her traveling on CO. My mother does most (almost all) her traveling on CO. The reason why we do most to all of our traveling on CO is because they offer must better product vs. other carriers. Of course I have found other airlines to be cheaper for some of my travel options, however the others do NOT and I mean DO NOT offer, free snack meals which others charge about 8 to 10 bucks for. (I can by 2 happy meals and a Big Mac for that cost.) Pillows and Blankets (hey, that small pillow comes and handy and its a hastle trying to carry a jacket around for just a plane trip!). Clean aircrafts, (I hate being in a dirty area for too long.) On time performance (hate having folks driving around till I'm outside or pay extra for parking because I was 10-15s too late to get out of the garage.) Friendly people (Hey, you gotta love these type of people, they make ya day go by must easlier.) Finally, they do not lose my bags (sucks being on vacation especially at girl-friends place with no clean clothes because you are waiting for them to arriving in the mail from the airline that lost them.)

CO, keep up the good work, Keep the product strong, It sure beats the hell out of AAs, US, UAs, DLs, NWs product!

[Edited 2005-03-02 09:13:51]
 
pictues
Posts: 175
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:41 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 5:45 pm

Okay I know Air Canada doesn't compete with the US Carriers outside of Transborder but with our Transport ministers talking about allowing CDN Carriers to fly Domestic US and US Carriers to fly Domestic Canada, it could be compared. Air Canada pilots were before AIr Canada going through Bankruptcy making at least 30% less then many US Carriers and they took a larger percentage cut then CO is proposing, and that was only the first round of cuts, the second it was a little more. Many people in Canada didn't think the pilots would come to an agreement even but they did when they realized AC was in such dire straits (most employees didn't believe AC was really in as much trouble as they were being told, of course that is another issue to cause that) so I believe that while the Pilots probably won't like the deals too much if at all as all other employee groups, I think they will vote to save the company rather then CO using the Courts which will probably impose higher cuts. Of course that is my opinion and the only opinion that will count is the employee vote so we will have to wait and see.
 
ewr757
Posts: 356
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2000 8:47 am

RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:13 pm

Falcon:

As usual you reply like a child with no substance. No point in debating an annoying insect with a chip on his shoulder. Your underlying jealous attitude drips with every post you make.

ContnlEliteCMH:

First off, thank you for your business


>>You insist that the deal you are getting here should be compared to the other majors' contracts. Fine.<<

I only point them out to show that we have been far underpaid as compared to our peers. When they take concessions they are still way ahead in overall compensation. Point is, why does our high priced management always need a cost advantage on the pilots back? Past the dollars and cents issue, it is a rub that bothers many if not all pilots. If they say it doesn't, they are lying.

>>Though odd to those of us who operate in more of a free market mode, you want the pay of peers at your competitors to determine what's "fair" for you. <<

Pilots by virtue of being married to a seniority list do not operate in a free market mode. The cycle of contracts historically used to always revolve around compensation at other carriers.

>>Then you readily apply a totally different standard for the management at Continental. <<

Management at all these carriers are not here for the duration. They stay, either screw up or become successful, then leave with their golden parachutes no matter what good they do or what havoc they inflict on the airline.

>>You don't care what they make relative to the industry; you only care what their cut is. It seems to me that, to be consistent, you should not worry about how much cut they take, or what form the cut takes, but rather how they are paid relative to management at your competitors. If I'm wrong, please tell me how. I'm all ears.<<

I do look at both factors in my opinions of management vis a vis what I am willing to give up. I do look at our management compensation and their "scarifice" in what I am willing to do. So far, I am not impressed. So I am actually in agreement with you.

Drdivo:

>>What I'm wondering is what they're teaching people in schools these days; apparently, it's not reading and simple math.<<

Simple math of viewing pay rates is only a small part of the equation of overall pay. Work rules and other forms of compensation make up the overall package.

>>The ONLY pilots who are higher paid than Continental's as a group are NWA's 747 pilots, and Delta's. There are variations within the center of the charts as to hourly rates, but Continental's pilots are the only ones without a "B" scale, and with a defined benefit pension plan (that is fully funded, by the way.)<<

You're wrong about the B scale. No one has that now. As far as the pensions, well that could take a whole lot of explanation. As far as pay scales, talk to our 737 guys about their pay compared to SW. Be sure you compare years of service as well.

>>Did you notice that Northwest's B-scalers have NO pension? <<

I would disregard that web site. All NW pilots have a pension. No B scale at NW either.

AnnoyedFA

Reserve guarantee is 76 hours Lineholder guarantee is 72. The lines are built much higher due to staffing fluctuations with an average called a divisor. Pay caps (which are always higher than min guarantee) also vary depending how short or in excess they are of pilots.



[Edited 2005-03-02 13:34:16]
 
ewr757
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RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:32 pm

EA CO AS


>>There's no shame in such a plug - I also feel that CO's pilots have historically been underpaid vs. the rest of the industry.<<

Thanks for recognizing that with maturity.

>>Unfortunately, the past is the past - and the present is the present. Meaning regrettably, it has no bearing on today's situation.<<

To a point I would agree with you. However, it does cause people to become more intransigent when viewing what management contiunes to pay themselves while asking for pay cuts.

>>I know, but still it doesn't matter at this point who was where. It's all about where everyone is today<<

Agreed.

>>From what I've seen, management has already agreed to lead by example, taking paycuts larger than any single employee group has to date. IIRC, this also included forgoing bonuses, which means it's a real cut for them, not just a paper one.<<

You must remember that prior to this cut, management increased their pay for certain executive positions that were vacated as Gordon left. Then they took a cut. Do a search of my posts and in a prior attempt to explain this very basic fact to Falcon, I posted the article from the Houston Chronicle which summarized very nicely what was done in Sept. 04 reference this.

Also, management has only indicated stopping bonus programs for 2005, while asking for continued redcutions from all the rank and file for much longer.

>>Besides, I think CO's shown extraordinary leadership (similar to AS management, IMHO) by tackling costs head-on right now instead of waiting until they're at Chapter 11's door like AA, DL, UA and US did.<<

I'd agree. Unless were talking about golden parachutes and such. I also don't think they have been proactive enough in reducing the lease rates with some of our aircraft like the 735's.

>>I just hope we start seeing the price of Jet-A head downward, and soon.<<

So very true, the employees can not be expected to cut wages to offset this. Point is, what if it goes up further? Should we all take another hit when the revenue side of the equation needs to address this?
 
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RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 11:31 pm

Why did it take high fuel prices and 9/11 for these $2 billion in cuts to be made? Why did they ever waste an extra $2 billion yearly?

Easy - because before 9/11 and high fuel prices, those cuts weren't necessary - CO was still able to afford a bit more and didn't have to lean out their costs that much back then to still make money.

Think of it this way - do you still eat just Ramen and Mac and Cheese like you did when you first moved into your own place and were barely getting by? Probably not - back then, you were in survival mode and only could afford the bare minimums to get by. Now, it's likely that you buy different groceries.

For CO, the reverse is true - they're going to "Ramen Mode" - cutting costs and doing what they can to get by, since times are tough right now.

>>I just hope we start seeing the price of Jet-A head downward, and soon.<<

So very true, the employees can not be expected to cut wages to offset this. Point is, what if it goes up further? Should we all take another hit when the revenue side of the equation needs to address this?


No, because by that point additional increases in fuel will be affecting EVERYONE to the point where competitors will have no choice but to go along with fare hikes to compensate for these higher costs.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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Falcon84
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RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 11:53 pm

Looks like the company might have to shrink then till they can make money in their current state.

And that won't work. It doesn't work to shirnk, because you lose market share, you lose customers, you lose critical mass, that, in this day and age, is vital to survive. Ask US how well shrinking has done for them?

Again, you show your utter lack of awareness, with such a statement, and the only good think is in shirnking, we'd get rid of deadwood like yourself.

Here's my questions where did the money come from for the over done Terminal E in IAH?

Like Concourse D in CLE, it was done with bonds from the city, underwritten by CO. Simple.

Again, you assume that because an entity isn't makeing a profit that it can't or shouldn't spend money. It has to spend money, to keep improving and to survive. Sit on your ass, and you're dead. Terminal E makes IAH a better facility to move people in/out of, and it was money, whether spend by CO or the city, that was well-spent, because it will improve the product in/out of IAH.

Why did it take high fuel prices and 9/11 for these $2 billion in cuts to be made?

Oh, I don't know-maybe it's because before 9/11, the economic swoon and high fuel prices the airlines were raking in money hand over foot? Like we were making $300 million a year, and the cuts weren't really needed, because the climate was completely different?

Times changes; business cycles bring highs and lows, especially in this business, but when the going is good, cuts aren't as necessary as they are when theyr'e tough.

Another point, Annoying F/A: in that period, basically between about '96 and '2000, I got wage increases of about 60%. 60%! And you want to complain about what YOU'RE paid? You hear an old-timer talk about the period from 1983 till about 1995, and ask them about low wages, kid. You don't have a freaking clue. None at all.

Why did they ever waste an extra $2 billion yearly?

Who said it was wasted? In good times, you can definitely spend more than you do in bad times. But when you get hit, simultaneously, with skyrocketing fuel prices, and fares that are falling like rocks, you either HAVE to cut, or you'll run out of cash, and, in that regard, you'll be out of business. Again, you cannot, like you have tried to do, compare pre 9/11 conditions with those today-apples and oranges. The times have changed, probably long-term this time, and airlines have to find ways to become leaner and more thrifty in what they spend. You just don't seem to understand that.

I'm just about tired of all these posts

Good, then we won't have to listening to your whining, crying, unprofessional attitude about your job, or your company. Just leave-go do something else. Get a new job where you can be miserably happy, not misreably sad. You are a poor example, from what I've seen, of the kind of representative this company should have-you and Ewr757 both.

Union people do I only hope people will vote NO and preserve the money they make

They vote no, and the likely consequence is they lose it in a bankruptcy filing, so you WILL lose it eaither way. So you can be smart, and take what your reps made a deal for, or let some judge take even more from you. It's your choice.

Falcon:

As usual you reply like a child with no substance. No point in debating an annoying insect with a chip on his shoulder. Your underlying jealous attitude drips with every post you make.


Whatever. Go back to reading the WSJ, and fretting over your portfolio. Oh, I forgot, you're a poor, depraved, nearly destitute pilot, right? You make such measly wages, that you can't afford that new Lexus you want. My bad.

You and Mr. Annoyed can leave this company any time, and we'll all be better off. Again, Ewr757, your pay will go down now, or later, via bankruptcy. It's your choice, and you'll have absolutely no right to bitch if you guys vote no, then lose more later. It will have been your choice and yours alone.

However, it does cause people to become more intransigent when viewing what management contiunes to pay themselves while asking for pay cuts.

What? Should management work for free, so you can get a pay raise?  Laugh out loud Managemet is taking the largest pay cut, 20%. They're not going to take any stock options (but are giving YOU those in return); they aren't going to take bonuses.

Tell us, Ewr757, what EXACTLY do you want from management? To give up their livilihood, for a selfish brat like yourself. I've ticked off what they're giving up-what do YOU want them to give up. And please, don't ignore the question because I'm asking it. It's a valid question, since you seemingly outright ignore what management is giving up. Let's here what you want?

Again, for someone who is obviously very intelligent, you just don't seem to get any of this. It seems to go right over your head.
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ewr767
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RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Wed Mar 02, 2005 11:55 pm

I don't usually do this, that is respond to specific people but I will to you annoyedfa. #1 my vote is neither yes or no at this point as I have not yet seen the tentative agreement. I simply am stating that at some point we will have to make sacrifices like all the other employees in our industry. Some of which have completely lost their jobs. #2 I am not an overpaid can of coke opener. I am a satisfied with my pay can of coke opener. #3 I do beg to differ that the mom and pops that fly us do appreciate that turkey or ham sandwich that looks like a small nerf ball, especially when they go to ua/aa/or whoever and are asked to fork over 8 bucks just to eat on the aircraft. I cant even imagine the looks, snarls, moans and groans you or I would be getting from the wheelchair crowd down to Florida asking them to pay for their meal. Thank god I'm NTA but I would feel sorry for my CO workers. I think a free meal is better than none, which again sets us apart from everyone else.
 
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RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:05 am

Falcon

Grow up. People can have an opposing opinion especially over an issue that affects them directly. That's the difference between you and I. I respect your decision to gladly hand over your pay and benefits while they line their pockets. You don't see me critizing your lack of conviction.

But somehow, I think that is how you have gone through your whole life anyway. At least you have this forum to vent on. God help us all if you treat our customers like your fellow employees who may not subscribe to your ideals or opinions.
 
Falcon84
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RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:10 am

Grow up. People can have an opposing opinion especially over an issue that affects them directly.

And I've never had a problem with that, but you're bashing management when 1. They're taking the largest %, by far, of a paycut; 2. They're not taking stock options, while giving us stock options; 3. Are not taking bonuses for this year. Yet you insist they give up more? I simply am interested in hearing what that is.

Again, and as usual, you're ignoring the question: based on everything above management is given up, what more do you want? And exactly, if they're giving up all that, how are they "lining their pockets"? They aren't, that's just your crybaby excuse to be a hard ass.
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ewr757
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RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:13 am

EA CO AS


>>No, because by that point additional increases in fuel will be affecting EVERYONE to the point where competitors will have no choice but to go along with fare hikes to compensate for these higher costs.<<


Which proves the underlying problems are revenue related. Not labor related. Attack labor CASM is only a short term fix that solves nothing in the long term.

I did see where the latest fuel surcharge has stuck. I though it was ironic that of any carrier, NWA initiated it after nixing so may hikes in the past.

Either way, we shall see what happens. I will vote and accept what a majority of my peers decide. I think it will be interesting though after viewing the initial reaction to this TA.
 
Falcon84
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RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:18 am

I did see where the latest fuel surcharge has stuck. I though it was ironic that of any carrier, NWA initiated it after nixing so may hikes in the past.

Hey, we agree for once, and some of us were just discussing that yesterday. I figured it wouldn't stick, so I hope this is a round of common sense by the carriers.
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RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:38 am

>>No, because by that point additional increases in fuel will be affecting EVERYONE to the point where competitors will have no choice but to go along with fare hikes to compensate for these higher costs.<<


Which proves the underlying problems are revenue related. Not labor related.


I'd say you're partly correct - see, the problems are twofold:

  • Revenues are declining due to downward fare pressure from LCCs and a public that thinks $99.00 each way fares are the norm

  • Fuel costs are rising dramatically


  • In the past, the changes in the economic landscape varied and airline revenues would rise and fall with them. Both these problems are structural in nature though, not cyclical - LCCs aren't going away, the public isn't clamoring for fare increases, and the demand for oil isn't diminishing.

    So raising fares won't work unless EVERYONE does it - and the only way that will happen is if the price of fuel becomes so outrageous that even the B6s and F9s of the world can't afford to stand pat any longer.

    Until meaningful, sustained fare hikes become a reality companies like CO must trim costs to remain competitive, and since they've already trimmed every conceivable non-labor cost they can without diminishing their product to the point where no one wants it (remember Gordon's old 'cheap pizza' analogy?), the next thing to focus on are wages and benefits.
    "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

    Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
     
    ewr757
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    RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

    Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:39 am

    Flycon

    >>And I've never had a problem with that,<<

    Yes you do. Your jealousy and lame anti union attitude reek with every ignorant post you write about the subject. Some of your opinions and comment are so far off the wall they point to obvious issues you have.

    >>but you're bashing management when 1. They're taking the largest %, by far, of a paycut;<<

    LOL...Falcon go backand read about the raises they bestowed upon themselves prior to all these cuts. Do the math. It is very simple. I posted a couple of months back the article that summarized this issue. You ignored it.

    >>2. They're not taking stock options, while giving us stock options;<<

    For 2005 only. At the same time they refuse to eliminate this later while keeping everyone at a concessionary level beyond. This is only a part of it as well. There are other pay outs and bonuses slated for them. Further, I could care less about stock. Ask the UAL employees what good their stock is today.

    >>3. Are not taking bonuses for this year. Yet you insist they give up more? I simply am interested in hearing what that is.<<

    No, I insisst that as long as we are forced to operate under concessionary terms, so should they. Their plans kick back in after 2005.

    >>Again, and as usual, you're ignoring the question: based on everything above management is given up, what more do you want? And exactly, if they're giving up all that, how are they "lining their pockets"?<<

    And as usual you are ignoring the answer. Beyond 2005 while we are still giving concesionary pay based on a 1997 contract. They essentially go back to financial trough while we look forward to stalling and negotiating off of an 11 year old contracts pay rates and work rules.

    >>They aren't, that's just your crybaby excuse to be a hard ass.<<

    Can you ever post a mature and adult orientated post without resorting to elementary school yard terms? Some of your posts sound like they were written by a junior high school student. Nevermind, I already know the answer to that.

    As far as being a "hard ass" that comes with a lot of work and education to get where I am today. If you think that your comments have in the least a microscopic effect on me, well I just consider the source Mr. gate agent. You keep right on handing out those tickets to our passengers and I'll fly them in the jet to their destinations. Aside from that, you should really keep your comments about what we should do about our pilot contract to yourself.

    Have I once told you what to do about your work rules and working agreement?
     
    Falcon84
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    RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

    Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:45 am

    LOL...Falcon go backand read about the raises they bestowed upon themselves prior to all these cuts. Do the math. It is very simple. I posted a couple of months back the article that summarized this issue. You ignored it.

    I didn't ignore anything, but the truth is, which you ignore, is management is taking a 20% wage cut; is giving up stock options; is giving up bonuses. You still won't detail what YOU would do, because you'd rather bitch and moan and cry, instead of coming up with your own alternatives.

    And, no, having them work for free isn't an alternative.  Big grin

    You ignore the fact that they're giving up quite a bit, and insist they give up more. I imagine they will in '06, but you're so anti-management that you won't ever give them the benefit of the doubt, will you?

    Agian, let's see your ideas, not your bellyaching.
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    ewr757
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    RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

    Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:50 am

    EA CO AS

    >> if the price of fuel becomes so outrageous that even the B6s and F9s of the world can't afford to stand pat any longer.

    Until meaningful, sustained fare hikes become a reality companies like CO must trim costs to remain competitive, and since they've already trimmed every conceivable non-labor cost they can without diminishing their product to the point where no one wants it (remember Gordon's old 'cheap pizza' analogy?), the next thing to focus on are wages and benefits.<<



    Let's look at something else.

    First we would of been profitable in the last 2 quarters had there been no write downs on the MD-80's.

    Our current contract has the lowest unit cost per ASM within the industry.

    CO already enjoys a revenue premium within the industry.

    They can trim the lease rates which they heven't touched.

    If fuel stays high, some of the weaker airlines will die and allow better pricing power. The government also has to stop propping up dying airlines. The bankruptcy courts and laws need to be rewritten since the complete lack of accoutability in the UAL and U case is hurting other carriers to operate within a free market society.
     
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    RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

    Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:05 am

    Flycon:


    >>You still won't detail what YOU would do<<

    Why should I discuss this with you again? I stated before many times the answer is on the revenue side of the equation.


    >>I didn't ignore anything, but the truth is, which you ignore, is management is taking a 20% wage cut;<<

    Not even you can be this dense. If you give yourself a raise prior to an announcement, then give yourself a paycut, it is not a "real cut" or "shared scarifice". Not eliminating bonus plans beyond 2005 while ALL of your employees continue with reduced compensation is not "shared sacrifice".

    From Rueters



    "Continental Airlines said it had set the terms and conditions of employment of Executive Vice President Jeffrey Smisek, who will succeed Larry Kellner as President at the end of the year.
    Smisek will receive an annual salary of at least $720,000 along with other benefits, the Houston-based airline said in a filing with federal regulators.
    In addition, Smisek will receive a supplemental executive retirement plan and lifetime flight benefit, which include personal and family flight passes and airport lounge cards. An airline representative was not immediately available for comment on Smisek's annual bonus.
    Smisek's salary will be higher than the $586,085 Kellner now receives in the post of president. Kellner did not receive a bonus in 2003. Smisek currently makes an annual base salary of $612,000 and a bonus of $750,000 for the post of Executive Vice President.
    The deal, in effect for five years, may be terminated by either party, the company said. Kellner, now President and Chief Operating Officer will succeed Gordon Bethune as chairman and Chief Executive at the end of this year.
    Continental is the largest carrier at Newark Liberty International Airport."
     
    Falcon84
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    RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

    Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:21 am

    Why should I discuss this with you again? I stated before many times the answer is on the revenue side of the equation.

    Revenue=fares charged, and in many ways, that's not a controllable cost, because I hate to break the news to you, but YOU don't set the market for fares, you and your union, the flying public does. They could give a rats ass what you and I make, or that we're taking paycuts. They've obviously spoken out in favor of lower fares, adn that's what the reality is. The reality from our side is structuring ourselves to meet those demands and still make a profit. THAT's the revenue side of the equation, my friend.

    Again, your jealousy of management shows thorugh. Like I said, if you want their money, try to get into management, but stop bitching about it on here. No one is impressed, the public that flies us doesn't give a damn about you or me vis-a-vis management, and the sooner you reach that reality, the less bitter you'll be towards those you obviously can't stand, namely management.
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    ewr757
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    RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

    Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:35 am

    Flycon:



    I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat the same thing to you. I don't care what they make. It only matters when they ask us for concessions and I do not see shared sacrifice. I really don't know how to bring it to a more basic level than that for you to comprehend.

    >>No one is impressed, the public that flies us doesn't give a damn about you or me vis-a-vis management, and the sooner you reach that reality...<<

    This has what to do with contract talks? I don't recall ever concerned about what the public thinks of my salary, nor do I care. Simple enough for you?

    Although I am sure everyone of my passengers the other night would think I earned every cent landing in Newark, in a driving, blinding snowstorm on a slick runway after a long flight across the Atlantic.

    >>towards those you obviously can't stand, namely management.<<

    And you?

    You are a classic at putting words in my mouth. My beef is they need to step up to the plate with equal enthusiasim for what they ask of us. There is a difference between lack of respect and "can't stand". Although your choice of words does remind me of a junior high school type spat way back when.

    [Edited 2005-03-02 18:44:03]
     
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    RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

    Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:55 am

    The government also has to stop propping up dying airlines. The bankruptcy courts and laws need to be rewritten since the complete lack of accoutability in the UAL and U case is hurting other carriers to operate within a free market society.

    Trust me, you'll get no argument from me on that one. UA and US are no different than the one or two people suffering from SARS in an E.R. waiting area in Asia who then infect the whole joint - they've been allowed to let their sickness infect everyone else.

    UA and US have been permitted to trash yields for everyone by having fire-sale after fire-sale to get quick cash, and frankly the other carriers shouldn't have to take losses due to their inability to compete effectively.
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    RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

    Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:06 am

    ALSO........Terminal E in IAH who paid for it? Co or the city of Houston? Why did they have to go all out knowing they were cash strapped and were going to be for the next few years? Also why did they need a Immagration facility that could process over 40,000 people in one hour when that amount will never be seen in a hour. Now if CO did pay for all of this... Why did the cuts not start from here?

    ANYONE KNOW???


    Yes, I know, as does any CO employee who cares to do about 10 seconds worth of digging. I can't believe how shortsighted your statement is. To build off BibB's post, here are your FACTS:

    * The entire Terminal E project ran at about $268 million.

    * CO invested in exchange for having total control. The investment was in exchange for being the General Contractor, which ensured that the building would be done ON TIME and ON BUDGET. With the exception of the FIS component (between Terminals E and D and was run by the CITY OF HOUSTON and ran overtime and overbudget) the entire terminal project was completed ON schedule and UNDER budget.

    * CO leases the property from the HAS and CO paid for it through the City of Houston issuing tax-exempt bonds backed by its own credit with no recourse to the taxpayers.

    * As a result, CO manages the entire building and also gets a revenue boost from concessions sales. That's brilliance in joining the private and public sectors.

    * The new FIS hall will be able to handle 4,000 pax/hr (not 40k as you stated) as opposed to the 1,600 in Term D. Did you ever arrive on in intl inbound into IAH? It was a dump! Too small, horrible throughput and a major operational impediment to the STRATEGIC vision of CO in its intl expansion, not to mention the fact that all the other foreign flags had to use it as well. Now, Term E will enable CO to properly process customers WITH their bags, not hold flights to the detriment of customer service, baggage performance and on-time performance as was the TYPICAL case for the past few years.

    * Before E opened, IAH was the 8th largest intl gateway city yet it had 45% of the processing capacity of the average of the top 7. That's a competitive DISadvantage and was an absolutely untenable situation.

    * Building Terminal E is called VISION. Period. To disagree with this premise is wholly myopic.

    There are your facts. Have a nice day.  Smile
     
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    RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

    Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:16 am

    Not eliminating bonus plans beyond 2005 while ALL of your employees continue with reduced compensation is not "shared sacrifice".

    While that's true, you also have to address a very real situation - the fact that airline executives are not the same as the rank-and-file employees.

    Educated, talented executives aren't a dime a dozen - and while I'm certainly not saying pilots are, they're certainly more plentiful than effective leaders in management are. To retain these people you need to offer different incentives than you would to a pilot or other employees.

    Remember, these are people that other companies are always recruiting, trying to lure them away from CO - even from completely different industries! They typically don't have the same degree of fierce company loyalty that a pilot or other rank-and-file employee does after years of service, so retaining their services and keeping 'em from jumping ship means offering attractive compensation packages up to and including stock options in many cases.

    Because the cost behind recruiting and successfully hiring a good executive are so high, it makes sense to offer them what are, in some cases, extremely generous compensation packages.

    Why? Because once all is said and done, you can't keep your airline running and making money without these people.

    So I understand your frustration - management got a raise first, and THEN took their paycut - so you see it as not as big of a cut as it "should" be compared to everyone else.

    The problem is that they're NOT everyone else, so it's not an apples to apples comparison and will never be.
    "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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    RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

    Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:25 am

    I agree EA CO AS, and again, this is the "class envy" card that's brought up.

    You think Gordon would have even come to CO, much less gotten anyone else with the skills and talent needed had he NOT been able to use incentives to recruit, attract and RETAIN senior leaders.

    Executive compensation for most Fortune 500 companies has gotten out of hand, you'll get no argument from me, but not *typically* at airlines and certainly not at CO.

    Go ask US Air what they think about continuity and talent at senior executive levels--I bet those poor folks would have WISHED they'd have had competent CEO-level folks, and other top tier talents in the business world.

    Paying them is hardly the problem some want to make it out to be. Especially since 75% or more of the top W-2 wage earners in CO are pilots. That's called hypocrisy.
     
    ewr757
    Posts: 356
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    RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

    Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:34 am

    >>Paying them is hardly the problem some want to make it out to be. Especially since 75% or more of the top W-2 wage earners in CO are pilots. That's called hypocrisy.<<

    If the job paid what 25% of the other W-2 earners made you would not attract competent people. Or are you one of those shorsighted managers that feel we should earn what a ramper makes?
     
    ewr757
    Posts: 356
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    RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

    Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:49 am

    EA CO AS

    >>While that's true, you also have to address a very real situation - the fact that airline executives are not the same as the rank-and-file employees.<<

    I think many CEO's and especially airline executives believe to much of their own press.

    >>Educated, talented executives aren't a dime a dozen - and while I'm certainly not saying pilots are, they're certainly more plentiful than effective leaders in management are. To retain these people you need to offer different incentives than you would to a pilot or other employees.<<

    True, to a point. Although it hasn't worked to well at other carriers. They take their millions, screw the pooch and leave behind wreckage. You have to have leadership by example or the troops will not follow. Sure there will be the Falcon's that blindly follow and kowtow to whatever is told of them. But start alienating the masses and the company will have problems.

    >>Remember, these are people that other companies are always recruiting, trying to lure them away from CO - even from completely different industries! <<

    True, but I disagree that these guys are like a diety or something. There are very comptetent and effective managers and leaders out there. Southwest doesn't seem to have a problem retainng very effective leadership for a lot less than CO pays.

    >>They typically don't have the same degree of fierce company loyalty that a pilot or other rank-and-file employee does after years of service, so retaining their services and keeping 'em from jumping ship means offering attractive compensation packages up to and including stock options in many cases.<<

    I say let them go. We need people who "WANT" to be here and "WANT" to run an airline and succeed. We need people who want to be remembered for what they did, not how much their compensation packages were. The industry needs more airline builders and fewer bean counters.

    >>Because the cost behind recruiting and successfully hiring a good executive are so high, it makes sense to offer them what are, in some cases, extremely generous compensation packages.<<

    No problem. If they earn it fine. But to pay these packages on a false belief that the sky will fall without them is wrong. To set goals that do not help the airlines long term structure and pay incentives based on that is wrong.

    >>Why? Because once all is said and done, you can't keep your airline running and making money without these people.<<

    You also can't run an airline if your employees feel they are working for only the good of senior management. Look at the morale at USAIR right now. Besides, if we are not making money, why should they recieve a premium?

    >>So I understand your frustration - management got a raise first, and THEN took their paycut - so you see it as not as big of a cut as it "should" be compared to everyone else.<<

    I see it as not shared sacrifice. I am willing to do whatever it takes to help the airline. However, it stops the moment I see someone else gaining financially from my sacrifice.

    >>The problem is that they're NOT everyone else, so it's not an apples to apples comparison and will never be.<<

    I don't know, they put their pants on one leg at a time when I do! Like I said before, half the problem in this country, like you said, executive compensation is totally out of whack with the fiscal realities of these companies. Look at the severance with that HP executive last month.

    You also can't compare like Mr. Slider did about our W2's with the rest of the employees. Anytime that Falcon wants to take a crack at flying the simulator and see if he would survive longer than 3 seconds I'd love that. I'm sure I could learn his job in a day or two. Apples to apples

    [Edited 2005-03-02 19:53:42]
     
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    RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

    Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:15 am

    >>Remember, these are people that other companies are always recruiting, trying to lure them away from CO - even from completely different industries! <<

    True, but I disagree that these guys are like a diety or something. There are very comptetent and effective managers and leaders out there.


    They're not deities, but they're not average joes off the street. The difference is akin to the difference between you and a ramper. No offense to ramp agents, but pilots are much more highly trained and bring a skill set to the table that commands a much higher degree of compensation. The same can be said for the difference between a savvy, talented executive and a pilot - their skill sets usually command higher pay than yours.

    Southwest doesn't seem to have a problem retainng very effective leadership for a lot less than CO pays.

    But Southwest has a very different corporate culture though. Besides that, WN has made millionaires of even some of their more senior rank-and-file employees thanks to the stock splits and profitsharing they've earned over the years. Executives working there know the majority of their pay will not come in the form of straight salary, but performance-based compensation in stock.

    >>They typically don't have the same degree of fierce company loyalty that a pilot or other rank-and-file employee does after years of service, so retaining their services and keeping 'em from jumping ship means offering attractive compensation packages up to and including stock options in many cases.<<

    I say let them go. We need people who "WANT" to be here and "WANT" to run an airline and succeed. We need people who want to be remembered for what they did, not how much their compensation packages were. The industry needs more airline builders and fewer bean counters.


    I say if they're going to ultimately help your company (and you) succeed, then who CARES what their rationale is for staying! Maybe they like Houston nightlife. Maybe they like CO's livery. Maybe they just enjoy repeating "Work Hard. Fly Right" to themselves over and over again -

    - or maybe they just like the pay and benefits they earn.

    Don't get me wrong, I'd bet a good sum of people in Corporate bleed blue and gold through and through....but again, if at the end of the day if they're able to help my company succeed and keep me in a good-paying job, then I don't give a rip what their reason was for coming to work and performing well.
    "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

    Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
     
    ewr757
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    RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

    Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:19 am

    Actually EA AS CO I agree with you more than you think. I agree good CEO's need to be highly compensated in the right environment. The question and the rub is....where do you draw the line and when? Then how much when your asking for sacrifice?
     
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    RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

    Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:00 am

    I agree good CEO's need to be highly compensated in the right environment. The question and the rub is....where do you draw the line and when?

    Good question. I guess the only answer I can come up with is "it depends." One thing to consider is that executive compensation (for officers anyway) is typically at the discretion of the BOD - and they answer to the stockholders.

    So stockholders, if you don't like what they're doing - vote 'em out!  Big thumbs up
    "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

    Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
     
    Zoomosapien
    Posts: 13
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    RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

    Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:07 am

    This is what CO Mechanics have been handed as thier Tentative Agreement

    Numbers 12, 14, 15, and 17 are the concessionary items and the rest are protections and demands the Teamster membership required.

    1. Continental Airlines Retirement Plan protected for the life of the agreement.

    2. Caps on Health Insurance
    a. 2005 benefits and employee costs protected
    b. 2005 and beyond no increases in the following:
    Office vist co-opays, specialty care visit co-pays, hospital care visit
    co-pays,emergency care visit copays, employee co-insurance, out of
    pocket maximums, deductibles and no change to the lifetime maximum
    benefit (unlimited).
    c. Employees' cost for health insurance in 2006 and beyond will not exceed
    20% of the total cost.

    3. Protection against certain events in case of bankruptcy (1113 letter)

    4. No furloughs for the life of the agreement.

    5. Stock Options

    6. 401 (k) retained

    7. Enhance profit sharing.

    8. Vacation unchanged.

    9. Sick/OJI leave unchanged

    10. Increase trades day limits (ability to trade for an additional (4) shifts per
    work week)

    11. $100 annual too allowance.

    12. 4.07% concession off "all-in" rate

    13. Wage increase of 2% on 7/1/07 and 2% on 7/1/08

    14. Overtime for employees who work on RDO's contingent upon employee
    being credited with 40 hours of work in that week, overtime retained
    for work after 8 or 10 in same day and double time (2X) retained.

    15. Eliminate 2 floating holidays

    16. Effective date 04-01-05

    17. Duration December, 2008 (two (2) year extension)
    I don't know you, and you don't know the half of it.
     
    Gnomon
    Posts: 894
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    RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

    Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:15 am

    Quoting EWR757 (reply 86):
    We need people who "WANT" to be here and "WANT" to run an airline and succeed.


    Thanks partially to the behavior of pilots unions in the last five or so years, I think you're asking a lot of anyone there, EWR757, particularly the nation's brightest businessmen and lawyers who could easily save themselves a few gray hairs by working elsewhere. Pilots at many U.S. airlines -- Continental excluded, mind you -- are lucky that anyone wants to take management positions, given the unforgiving labor climate that prevails across the companies.

    Quoting EWR757 (reply 86):
    Besides, if we are not making money, why should they recieve a premium?


    The answer is simple: To keep those talented minds in the executive suite, so that one day the airline can make money. Making a legacy carrier profitable in today's economic climate is a bit like squeezing blood from a turnip -- I don't think it can be done -- but it's sure nice to have smart and talented folks on board to innovate and build a framework for profitability once conditions improve. The only way to get 'em and keep 'em is $$$.

    Of the billions of dollars in losses at legacy carriers last year, exec bonuses accounted for -- at most -- a few million. Looks to me like it's in your best interest to pay a talented CEO very generously to lead your airline out of this quagmire adeptly. It's a small, small price to pay. Consider it an investment in your future earnings.

    BTW, I never have understood this somewhat Marxist mentality among rank-and-file employees, who expect well-educated executives to be held to the same pay scales and compensation requirements. That's a good way to scare off the talented folks you need, not retain them.

    If you don't see the need to invest in strong corporate leaders -- if you still want to complain that your much-needed corporate leaders are enjoying financial windfalls while you're taking paycuts -- there's a seat next to me in law school that you're welcome to occupy.
     
    Zoomosapien
    Posts: 13
    Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:43 am

    RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

    Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:27 am

    This is what CO Mechanics have been handed as thier Tentative Agreement

    Numbers 12, 15, and 17 are the concessionary items and the rest are protections and demands the Teamster membership required.

    1. Continental Airlines Retirement Plan protected for the life of the agreement.

    2. Caps on Health Insurance
    a. 2005 benefits and employee costs protected
    b. 2005 and beyond no increases in the following:
    Office vist co-opays, specialty care visit co-pays, hospital care visit
    co-pays,emergency care visit copays, employee co-insurance, out of
    pocket maximums, deductibles and no change to the lifetime maximum
    benefit (unlimited).
    c. Employees' cost for health insurance in 2006 and beyond will not exceed
    20% of the total cost.

    3. Protection against certain events in case of bankruptcy (1113 letter)

    4. No furloughs for the life of the agreement.

    5. Stock Options

    6. 401 (k) retained

    7. Enhance profit sharing.

    8. Vacation unchanged.

    9. Sick/OJI leave unchanged

    10. Increase trades day limits (ability to trade for an additional (4) shifts per
    work week)

    11. $100 annual too allowance.

    12. 4.07% oncession off "all-in" rate

    13. Wage increase of 2% on 7/1/07 and 2% on 7/1/08

    14. Overtime for employees who work on RDO's contingent upon employee
    being credited with 40 hours of work in that week, overtime retained
    forwork after 8 or 10 in same day and double time (2X) retained.

    15. Eliminate 2 floating holidays

    16. Effective date 04-01-05

    17. Duration December, 2008 (two (2) year extension)
    I don't know you, and you don't know the half of it.
     
    slider
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    RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

    Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:28 am

    If the job paid what 25% of the other W-2 earners made you would not attract competent people. Or are you one of those shorsighted managers that feel we should earn what a ramper makes?

    EWR757- Like EA AS CO, I think we agree more than you may think as well.

    Most of my buddies are pilots, neighbors, friends and I myself have a SEL but am not a commercial pilot. I'm in the loop and have the utmost repect for what they do. What they do is a trained profession in which their actions directly impact the company, and one in which safety is paramount. Furthermore, it is a profession in which years of training are required AND a retirement age is mandated involuntarily. So for those reasons and more I don't begrudge pilots for what they make...not at all.

    I do take umbrage to the class envy card that gets pulled against senior management as if they *shouldn't* be paid commensurate with their skills either. While there are training requirements for pilots, type ratings, sim demands, etc, it remains much easier to replace a line pilot than it is a CEO, CFO, or someone at that level. Again, I don't say that to pit one side against another, but to illustrate the facts...hence my W-2 example. I found that hypocritical, when--even with their high degree of skill and expertise--can still be replaced at will. Hell, let's face it, the operation is bigger than any one of us, from the breakroom to the boardroom. Ultimately, we're all expendable if you want to look at it in that way.

    You asked the more appropriate question though in asking "How much is enough?" or "What *is* reasonable for executive compensation?" Very valid Q's to ask. But not for Continental execs, IMO....they gave 25%+, did it a while ago, shouldered a massive burden and they don't have the luxury of bitching about it as we do.

    I'm taking a cut, and I'm not elated, but I'm a realist. My resume also has a defunct airline on it, and I've been down the road of draconian pay and benefit cuts before...and unlike now, my company then didn't ask me HOW I wanted it or solicit input to make it more palatable for employees. Nor was there any business plan, financial briefing or any such thing provided for employees as it has been at CO.

    Now take a look at the provisions of the TA above for the mechanics: they take a 4% all-in avg paycut, OT is calculated based on 40 hrs per week not 8+ per day, and they lose 2 floating holidays! That's all!! Read the job protections in there--if that's all accurate then the mechanics don't have a single thing to gripe about! They're guaranteed increases, as well as no furloughs, no vacation changes, 401k stays, *plus* the modified profit sharing and now the stock options.
     
    Cory6188
    Topic Author
    Posts: 2710
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    RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

    Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:39 am

    If all of the contracts end up as nice as that of the mechanics', I don't think that any of the CO employee groups have anything to gripe about.
     
    Falcon84
    Posts: 13775
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    RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

    Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:58 pm

    I don't care what they make. It only matters when they ask us for concessions and I do not see shared sacrifice.

    Well, your words and actions say you're not being honest. You're giving up 8.9% of your pay. Management is giving up 20%-screw when they last got a payraise, they're giving up 1/5 of what they make, and that's a lot of money. They gave up stock options, while you'll get options. They gave up bonuses, and that's a lot of money.

    YOu don't want "shared sacrifice". You want management to work for next to nothing, that's what you want. Hell, you're taking a smaller percentage of a paycut than I am, and I'm sure I make a hell of a lot less than you to begin with. So don't make me want to hurl with this "shared sacrifice" bullshit. You want everyone else to take the hit, and you to take none of it. That's what you want, you can deny it till hell freezes over,but that's what you'd want, and what you prefer.

    This has what to do with contract talks?

    EVERYTHING!! The customer's wants drives the fares, and couple that with high fuel prices, and it has EVERYTHING to do with it! It's the reality, which you, and some others on here, like that Annoying f/a don't seem to grasp! You still cling to some notion that the fuel prices and fares have nothing to do with your negotiations, but it's at the very core of what's going on, my friend.
    Work Right, Fly Hard
     
    ewr757
    Posts: 356
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    RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

    Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:08 pm

    Flycon.

    I have answered your mantra over and over. Let's try again.

    >>You're giving up 8.9% of your pay.<<

    From 1997 pay scales.

    >>Management is giving up 20%-screw when they last got a payraise, they're giving up 1/5 of what they make,<<

    Apparently you can't read the news article I posted or you are challenged mathematically. Giving up money after increasing your salary is not sacrafice.

    >>They gave up stock options<<

    Only through 2005. Our agreement runs through 2008. By the time you figure stalling to negotiate, I'd figure it would 2010 before we see a new agreement. Management will rubber stamp themselves raises and options long berfore rest assured.

    >>while you'll get options<<

    Ask the UAL employees about their options

    >>They gave up bonuses<<

    Only for 2005.

    >>You want management to work for next to nothing, <<

    I didn't say that.

    >>Hell, you're taking a smaller percentage of a paycut than I am<<

    You are making closer to industry average than I am. So what?

    >>I'm sure I make a hell of a lot less than you to begin with.<<

    That is your problem Flycon. You could of followed in my footsteps and been flying jets instead of printing tickets for people to board them. Don't come whining with your "pilot envy" because you were either to lazy or unskilled to do anything else.

    >>You want everyone else to take the hit, and you to take none of it. <<

    The pilots make up 9% of the workforce, yet management wants 40% of the cuts from us. Cuts from a 8 year old pay scale. Some hit you're taking.

    >>You still cling to some notion that the fuel prices and fares have nothing to do with your negotiations,<<

    It doesn't. I'll ask you again. What if fuel goes to $80bbl, $100 bbl. Do you still think we should cut more of our pay to subsidize costs? All management in this industry needs to learn to price the product accordingly. Not give it away.
     
    ewr757
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    RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

    Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:19 pm

    Gnomon:

    >>Thanks partially to the behavior of pilots unions in the last five or so years, I think you're asking a lot of anyone there<<

    Care to explain? How about the bloated golden parachutes paid out to many management teams across the industry? Like Mullin at DL? Siegal at U? Dare I say Gordon at CO? Walk a mile in my shoes sonny, then we can talk about why the pilots fight for what we deserve.

    >>EWR757, particularly the nation's brightest businessmen and lawyers who could easily save themselves a few gray hairs by working elsewhere. <<

    Let them go. We need people who have airline in their blood, not bean counters.

    >>Pilots at many U.S. airlines -- Continental excluded, mind you -- are lucky that anyone wants to take management positions, given the unforgiving labor climate that prevails across the companies.<<

    Unforgiving labor climate. Interesting choice of words. This is my greatest fear at CO for the future.

    >>The answer is simple: To keep those talented minds in the executive suite, so that one day the airline can make money.<<

    This was tried at many airlines for rentention bonuses and the like. Again, look at DL under Mullin and this excuse used. NONE of his management team is around yet they blew millions to retain these "key" people. It has also happened at CO.

    >>Making a legacy carrier profitable in today's economic climate is a bit like squeezing blood from a turnip -- I don't think it can be done -- but it's sure nice to have smart and talented folks on board to innovate and build a framework for profitability once conditions improve. The only way to get 'em and keep 'em is $$$.<<

    I have no problem with that. Just don't use my blood to subsidize costs, pay your execs like a profitable carrier and reward as such like SW.

    >>Of the billions of dollars in losses at legacy carriers last year, exec bonuses accounted for -- at most -- a few million. <<

    So what? It is principle and leadership by example. Unmotivate your troops, make them believe they are being conned....watch out.

    >>Looks to me like it's in your best interest to pay a talented CEO very generously to lead your airline out of this quagmire adeptly. It's a small, small price to pay. Consider it an investment in your future earnings.<<

    Again, no problem. I disagree at the line where bloated, shared sacrifice and reasonable starts.

    >>I never have understood this somewhat Marxist mentality among rank-and-file employees, who expect well-educated executives to be held to the same pay scales and compensation requirements. That's a good way to scare off the talented folks you need, not retain them.<<

    You're stretching the intent a bit far here son. For your age I wouldn't expect you to be able to relate to rank and file issues, let alone pilot contracts and work rules.

    >>there's a seat next to me in law school that you're welcome to occupy.<<

    Just what the world needs......another lawyer. No thanks, I'd prefer to clean outhouses and retain some dignity.
     
    ewr757
    Posts: 356
    Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2000 8:47 am

    RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

    Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:21 pm

    Cory6188

    >>If all of the contracts end up as nice as that of the mechanics', I don't think that any of the CO employee groups have anything to gripe about.<<

    Technical services already had a contract renegotiated and approved from the time line of the 1997 pilot contract. Additionally, they had an interim hike in their pay rates.

    Any tech. people on here that can add, correct or clarify this?

    [Edited 2005-03-03 13:23:16]
     
    ewr757
    Posts: 356
    Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2000 8:47 am

    RE: CO Gets Pay Reductions From Its Employees

    Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:12 pm

    Slider:

    >>EWR757- Like EA AS CO, I think we agree more than you may think as well.<<

    I'm sure we do. I think my initial reply to you was harsher than I meant it to be. Obviously from your postings, unlike Falcon, you reply with thought fact and attempt good discussion rather than...well it is clear with him.

    >>Most of my buddies are pilots, neighbors, friends and I myself have a SEL but am not a commercial pilot.<<

    You mean a private SEL? Good for you! It is never to late to start. Although the instrument rating is much more important than the commercial ticket.

    >>I'm in the loop and have the utmost repect for what they do.<<

    I wish I could drag Larry along for a few days, plop him in the jumpseat and give him a clue as to what really takes place on the line. What would be even better is to have him observe the process while flying in some really nasty weather, watching your fuel vanish while holding all the time making decisions on the safest way to conclude the flight and not upset our customers (i.e. diverting)

    I would never hope for an abnormal in the aircraft, so given that, let him spend some time in the simulator and watch emergencies trained and practiced.

    >>What they do is a trained profession in which their actions directly impact the company, and one in which safety is paramount. <<

    Yes it does. A lot of pilots gripe that if we ever damaged an aircraft, we'd be history. That is fine, I can live with that. Yet we see some upper managemnt at times (at all airlines) make stupid bonehead decisions that cost the carriers millions and millions yet there is no accountability. They just eventually sail off in the sunset with their golden parachute. I know it is the nature of the beast, but it still grates on people.

    >>Furthermore, it is a profession in which years of training are required <<

    Many people have no idea what is really involved. Sure you can get some low time guy to fly the plane from A to B. But the real problem is when things go astray and non ops normal. It takes years of experience to conclude the flight safely. You have to have a well of knowledge to draw from. Nobody is there to help you aside from another highly qualified guy in the other seat.

    >>AND a retirement age is mandated involuntarily. <<

    Which will probably increase as the theft of our pensions run rampant across the industry. Don't forget we are also held to stringent medical standards. We are just one medical away from a mandated retirement if something bad shows up. Which in any other profession would allow that person to continue their career.

    >>So for those reasons and more I don't begrudge pilots for what they make...not at all.<<

    Nor do I!!!!! Cheap self gratuitous ad there.

    >>I do take umbrage to the class envy card that gets pulled against senior management as if they *shouldn't* be paid commensurate with their skills either. <<

    Like I said to EA, my problem is the drawing of the line. Sure they need to make the big bucks. In the present discussion vis a vis pay cuts with the pilots, I do not believe the sacrifice is being truly shared.

    >>While there are training requirements for pilots, type ratings, sim demands, etc, it remains much easier to replace a line pilot than it is a CEO, CFO, or someone at that level.<<

    Actually not true due to union protections. CEO's can be fired at will from the board. We are not at will employees. In the context of there are many on the seniority list to easily replace, yes that is true. If you're talking about competent CEO's I'd agree. However their resumes alone don't impress me. I want to see real bonafide results out of these people.

    >>Again, I don't say that to pit one side against another, but to illustrate the facts...hence my W-2 example. I found that hypocritical, when--even with their high degree of skill and expertise--can still be replaced at will.<<

    I know where you're coming from and I also know that many in the middle management ranks are getting the shaft. I shouldn't use the term management so loose. I have been alluding to senior management at the executive level.

    I have heard the stories and pressure on our middle management people. I agree it has been ugly and I do feel for you folks. Frankly, in a managerial sense, you guys are placed with the operational burden and if you don't perform you're history. A lot of pressure there. Upper managemnt always comes out on top of many careers that are sacrificed if there is a monumental screw up.

    >>Hell, let's face it, the operation is bigger than any one of us, from the breakroom to the boardroom. <<

    I agree. Very well put.

    >>Ultimately, we're all expendable if you want to look at it in that way.<<

    I agree there as well.

    >>You asked the more appropriate question though in asking "How much is enough?" or "What *is* reasonable for executive compensation?" Very valid Q's to ask.<<

    That is my only point especially in this environment of pay cuts.

    >>But not for Continental execs, IMO....they gave 25%+, did it a while ago, shouldered a massive burden and they don't have the luxury of bitching about it as we do.<<

    Well, reread the Rueters arcticle I posted about prior pay increases for positions vacated. Remember that they have only agreed until 2005 to stop bonuses. If my cuts on our 1997 contract were only to 2005 (end) I wouldn't complain.

    As far as their bitching, all they need to do is sell a story to the board of why they are not expendable and viola...new pay package. Look how long we have been negotiating in vain for a new agreement. There is give and take on both sides of the argument but all in all, senior management can easily change their pay and benefits.

    >>I'm taking a cut, and I'm not elated,<<

    I'm figuring, roughly, this will cost me about $500,000 in pay and retirement benefits. I haven't actually taken a calculator to the entire deal. Also, I have not see the actual TA so it is just a guess. Plus, the DC plan for retirement is not clear aside from general figures of contributions.


    >>but I'm a realist. My resume also has a defunct airline on it, and I've been down the road of draconian pay and benefit cuts before...<<

    Intersting comment there. Reread that. "Defunct and draconian pay cuts before". I'm not being a creep here but I have always said that pay cuts do not save airlines. Name one carrier that survived and prospered while cutting pay.

    >>and unlike now, my company then didn't ask me HOW I wanted it or solicit input to make it more palatable for employees. Nor was there any business plan, financial briefing or any such thing provided for employees as it has been at CO.<<

    While I agree CO has been campaigning, I do disagree with some of their analysis. Especially about labor CASM vis a vis the industry. CO still enjoys a very competitive labor CASM. It is the non labor CASM causing the problems.

    You can't fix non labor CASM by cutting pay. The fundamental problem is still there.

    >>Now take a look at the provisions of the TA above for the mechanics: they take a 4% all-in avg paycut, OT is calculated based on 40 hrs per week not 8+ per day, and they lose 2 floating holidays! That's all!! Read the job protections in there--if that's all accurate then the mechanics don't have a single thing to gripe about! They're guaranteed increases, as well as no furloughs, no vacation changes, 401k stays, *plus* the modified profit sharing and now the stock options.<<

    I won't speak for the mechanics. Remember they have already have had a new agreement and interim raises. We have been out of contract since 2002. That agreement was signed in 1997 and was by any standards then concessionary.

    Thank you for the mature and frank discussion.

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