CO Planning To Start Service To Accra, Ghana

MAH4546 · Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:59 am

Following CO's announcement of planed Lagos, Nigeria service, Continental today applied with the US DOT to offer daily non-stop service between Newark and Accra, Ghana. The application is very bare, and Continental has simply requested seven of the twenty-one available US-Ghana frequencies. These frequencies expire, however, on 31 March 2006, because after that, the US and Ghana will operate under Open Skies, so the fact that CO has applied for the slots hints that they may look at starting service this winter.

http://dms.dot.gov/search/document.c...m?documentid=318086&docketid=20523

B4REAL · Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:02 am

WOW! CO is really building a strong network. I think soon, DL will loose the title "the leading carrier across the Atlantic" to CO, if you count these two African destinations as transatlantic destinations.

FoxBravo · Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:03 am

Interesting. It's great to see CO becoming a sort of modern-day Pan Am, restoring U.S. carrier service to places that haven't had service for years, or never did in the first place. On a more practical level, it's a smart move--as the domestic market slowly gets carved up by the LCCs, many lucrative international routes remain ripe for the picking, and that's where the money is.

MAH4546 · Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:11 am

Quoting B4real (reply 1):
WOW! CO is really building a strong network. I think soon, DL will loose the title "the leading carrier across the Atlantic" to CO, if you count these two African destinations as transatlantic destinations.

CO still has to get ahead of American Airlines too.

Delta4eva · Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:33 am

Quoting B4real (reply 1):

I don't think Continental will surpass Delta anytime soon. Continental's not the only one adding service over the Atlantic. Delta starting ATL-SVO, JFK-TXL second ATL-FCO etc. With the new terminal in Boston, I'd expect even more trans-Atlantic flights from Delta in the next few years.

DeltaMIA · Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:37 am

Quoting MAH4546 (reply 0):
and Continental has simply requested seven of the twenty-one available US-Ghana frequencies

How many total slots are there? And who currently uses them with Ghana Airways gone? To me 21 available slots means there was never really a need for an open skies agreement.

MAH4546 · Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:56 am

Quoting DeltaMIA (reply 5):
How many total slots are there? And who currently uses them with Ghana Airways gone?

Twenty-one to US carriers and Twenty-one to Ghana carriers, I believe.

cadet93 · Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:14 am

"Delta4eva"
"I don't think Continental will surpass Delta anytime soon. Continental's not the only one adding service over the Atlantic. Delta starting ATL-SVO, JFK-TXL second ATL-FCO etc. With the new terminal in Boston, I'd expect even more trans-Atlantic flights from Delta in the next few years."

CO has Berlin starting in just a few months, and already serves ROME......
I couldn't find a seat on the ROME flights this summer when I was looking to go...so the ROME flights are making them money....I booked a BF ticket to BERLIN already...I hope they make it in that market.....I have been waiting for the nonstop out of EWR for along time......

DeltaMIA · Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:23 am

Quoting Cadet93 (reply 7):
CO has Berlin starting in just a few months, and already serves ROME

He isn't stating that DL is starting FCO. DL already serves FCO as well. However this summer DL will serve FCO from ATL twice daily and once daily from CVG and JFK.

Quoting Delta4eva (reply 4):
I don't think Continental will surpass Delta anytime soon

The biggest difference is capacity. DL operates all of their transatlantic flights with 763's or larger. That is 204 seats per flight. CO utilizes a 752 and 762 along side their 777's and 764's. However DL only has a limited number of these planes so expansion will become stagnate shortly.

Delta4eva · Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:08 am

Quoting DeltaMIA (reply 8):
He isn't stating that DL is starting FCO. DL already serves FCO as well. However this summer DL will serve FCO from ATL twice daily and once daily from CVG and JFK.

Thank you DeltaMIA, that is exactly what I was saying!

AA787 · Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:11 am

How much market does each US airline have across the pond?

AA787

ramerinianair · Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:20 am

Cade,
When were you looking to go to FCO? There are many many seats available to FCO from EWR still left. I would estimate that this summer's bookings haven't even hit 25%.
SR

goCOgo · Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:22 am

Interesting, EWR-ACC. 4459nm. I imagine that would be 762 service. Surprised would go to Ghana before trying some larger African destinations like Johannesburg, Cape Town, or maybe even Nairobi.

As far as CO taking over DL as most across the Atlantic, they have a long ways to go before breaking DL's ASMs, but they probably will soon beat them as far as total destinations.

Frostbite · Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:33 am

Might CO be looking to combine ACC service with LOS, ie, EWR-ACC-LOS-EWR?

Routings like this are becoming rare among US airlines but it's just a thought. This way they could overnight eastbound crew in ACC instead of LOS.

MAH4546 · Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:36 am

Quoting Frostbite (reply 13):
Might CO be looking to combine ACC service with LOS, ie, EWR-ACC-LOS-EWR?

Exactly. That is most likely what they are going to do, although I think EWR-LOS-ACC-LOS-EWR is more likely. Crew resting in Lagos isn't very safe.

behramjee · Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:37 am

JNB-NBO-CPT are too far for nonstop B 772ER flights with full payload capacity for CO from EWR to undertake. Plus CO dont have spare B 772ERs for those 3 mentioned African cities. Soon 3-4 CO B 777s will be devoted to daily EWR-PEK-EWR flights and others are used on EWR-HKG-EWR daily (3-4), EWR-LGW, IAH-LGW etc etc.

Both ACC and LOS will see B 762ER service on a daily basis and thats the best sized aircraft for such a route all year round.

STT757 · Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:50 am

Quoting MAH4546 (reply 0):
These frequencies expire, however, on 31 March 2006, because after that, the US and Ghana will operate under Open Skies, so the fact that CO has applied for the slots hints that they may look at starting service this winter.

You guys called it, they are going to play it safe and overnight the crews and aircraft in Ghana. They want to serve Lagos but the safety issues have been holding them back, this is a good solution. Drop off passengers in Lagos and high tail it out of there to Ghana, pick up a new crew and trek back to Lagos staying only long enough to pick everyone up and head back home.

Quoting GoCOgo (reply 12):
but they probably will soon beat them as far as total destinations.

CO is already there, CO serves more European Cities than anyother US carrier.

.

Ezra · Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:52 am

I'm a bit surprised CO wants to serve Ghana as opposed to Senegal (DKR). Senegal has a much more robust economy, and there are a lot more Senegalese in the NY area than there are Ghana expats (not that expat travel makes or breaks a flight). Maybe the Ghana/Nigeria service has something to do with the fact that both those countries share an English-speaking legacy and Senegal does not?

AA787 · Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:53 am

Ezra-

Or its that DKR already has service to the NYC area with SA.

AA787

Ezra · Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:57 am

Quoting AA787 (reply 18):
Or its that DKR already has service to the NYC area with SA.

I always forget about that flight. But still, DKR should be able to support two flights to NYC.

STT757 · Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:03 pm

Is there any oil in Ghana?..

Ghana Airways used to fly DC-10s into JFK, and there are plenty of immigrants from Ghana in the City.

DeltaMIA · Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:20 pm

Quoting STT757 (reply 16):
CO is already there, CO serves more European Cities than anyother US carrier.

Well technically not. Although announced CO has yet to begin service to ARN, TXL, BRS, HAM, and BFS. So they are still behind DL in destinations. However in June/July they will overtake Delta with 24 cities served to Delta's 21.

goCOgo · Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:25 pm

Quoting Behramjee (reply 15):
JNB-NBO-CPT are too far for nonstop B 772ER flights with full payload capacity for CO from EWR to undertake. Plus CO dont have spare B 772ERs for those 3 mentioned African cities. Soon 3-4 CO B 777s will be devoted to daily EWR-PEK-EWR flights and others are used on EWR-HKG-EWR daily (3-4), EWR-LGW, IAH-LGW etc etc.

NBO is less than 6500nm, so it would be fine. The other two clock in less than EWR-HKG, but would likely have some resrictions. But as you mention, the number of available 777s (and CO widebodies in general) is the problem, I imagine. Plus, I wasn't implying they should serve all of them right now, but that one of those would be better than ACC. But as has been brought up, they may be looking to have a place to park the plane and rest the crew.

777gk · Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:32 pm

This does not surprise me. Management has spent a lot of time with representatives from the pilot and flight attendant groups, and a lot of consideration has been paid to the safety of crews on layover in LOS.

A proposal was to hire a private security firm to provide round-the-clock protection for the crews in LOS, much more than your usual escort service, but this might become cost-prohibitive in the long term, so we are exploring all of our options both to maximize profitability and ensure the complete safety of our crews on the ground. The schedule is such that an extra tag might be a viable option, but that would include securing additional freedom rights, which may further delay the launch date. I am told that if the tag to ACC comes to be, it will NOT be with local traffic rights, but will be very similar to our IAH-GRU-GIG route, with EWR-originating continuing pax only on the LOS-ACC segment.

Cory6188 · Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:49 pm

So it's the security issues that are causing CO to drag their feet with this LOS service. I had been wondering what was taking so long...

RyanAFAMSP · Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:04 pm

I think this is a great move by Continental - even if it is as a tag-on to the LOS trip. So many international markets are growing in saturation, and these less served markets can support fantastic yields in both cabins even if the over all market is small.

As far as long hauls to Africa go, NBO as someone said earlier is no problem either direction for the 777. But as we know from SAA's experience, the South Africa trips are a no-go on the west-bound legs with any airplane in existance except for the A345 (no carrier on the market owns them), and the eastbound non-stops are really only viable with the 747-400- and even those trips take up a lot of aircraft block hours with a payload hit and a questionable ability to generate continues airfare premiums (Hence SAA's return to A346 trips via Sal from ATL). So the bottom line is that if CO were to go into the South Africa market it would likely be with existing widebodies through Dakar or Sal, Cape Verde.

OB1783P · Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:21 pm

Quoting FoxBravo (reply 2):
It's great to see CO becoming a sort of modern-day Pan Am, restoring U.S. carrier service to places that haven't had service for years, or never did in the first place.

It's only great if the route map is the result of good market research (as I'm sure it is). Pan Am's loopiest destinations in the 60s contributed to its financial deterioration. Some destinations were served only for the convenience of management (see book "Sky Gods").

All the same, I wish CO much success in Africa. I always have planned to visit Ghana, and that will encourage me.

wdleiser · Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:53 pm

It almost seems like CO is over expanding right now. I hope they don't stretch their resources to thin, but hopefully what they are doing will wind up being profitable.

masseybrown · Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:09 am

Over-expanding? Not in terms of total flying. Most of what they're doing is transferring planes from no-yield domestic routes to profitable international routes.

clipperno1 · Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:29 am

I simply love that CO is thinking out of the box here.
Instead of looking into expanding on existing (over crowded) routes or markets, they just look at new things with US-Africa routes,a market that has been in my opinion heavily under-utilized in the last years, and direct transatlantic services from smaller european airports.

There is a market for US-Ghana. Ghana Airways' demise can almost soley be blamed on p*ss-poor management.

cornish · Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:38 am

Quoting Ezra (reply 17):
I'm a bit surprised CO wants to serve Ghana as opposed to Senegal (DKR). Senegal has a much more robust economy, and there are a lot more Senegalese in the NY area than there are Ghana expats (not that expat travel makes or breaks a flight).

Ghana is a more lucrative business destination than Senegal, even if Senegal's economy is more robust. Also DKR may be seen as AF territory and so maybe CO would route that traffic through CDG.

FoxBravo · Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:56 am

While the idea of having the crew overnight in ACC makes a lot of sense, it seems to me that a triangle routing (e.g., EWR-LOS-ACC-EWR), as Frostbite suggested above, might smake more sense. It would certainly be more appealing to ACC passengers, and perhaps more important they would only have to go through the LOS security routine (guarding the aircraft, etc.) once a day instead of twice. They could even switch it up to the reverse routing on certain days of the week, as they have done in the past with EWR-DUB/SNN during the off season.

kkfla737 · Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:01 am

Wow, Co is beginning to build a Pan Am like African network. As late as 1983 Pan Am served 7 sub-saharan African cities (Dakar, Lagos, Nairobi, Accra, Abidjan, Monrovia, Johannesburg). CO will have to do it without the subsidies PA recieved though.

WesternA318 · Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:16 am

What were some of Pan Am's craziest destinations?

aa777jr · Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:20 am

DL will loose the title "the leading carrier across the Atlantic" to CO

AA still does more trans-atlantic flights than any US carrier.

MAH4546,

Do you know the exact figures on the market share across the pond for US carriers?

Thanks in AAdvance.

AA777jr

MAH4546 · Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:14 am

Quoting Aa777jr (reply 34):

Do you know the exact figures on the market share across the pond for US carriers?

No, but I believe the order is like this:

1) AA 2) DL 3) UA 4) CO 5) NW 6) US

And I think CO will pass UA pretty soon.

And, yes, few people realize that AA is actually the biggest trans-Atlantic carrier. AA uses the most 777s across the Atlantic, and is the largest US carrier at London/LHR, and flies from seven US gateways.

DeltaMIA · Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:35 am

Quoting Aa777jr (reply 34):
AA still does more trans-atlantic flights than any US carrier

Are you sure about that. Care to back it up with fact. I think DL/AA are about the same, DL may actually lead by a couple flights. The big difference between the two airlines is that nearly 70% of AA's flights go to LON.

MAH4546 · Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:36 am

Quoting DeltaMIA (reply 36):
Are you sure about that. Care to back it up with fact. I think DL/AA are about the same, DL may actually lead by a couple flights. The big difference between the two airlines is that nearly 70% of AA's flights go to LON.

Sorry about that, I meant to say AA has the most RPMs across the Atlantic.

ETStar · Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:55 am

Here we go again, yet another thread that has to bash the Nigerians and their perceived ways... I would be more worried to be in places like Harlem and the LA area.

Good for CO, and good for those in West Africa, who will hopefully get uninterrupted service to North America.

RDUCO · Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:42 am

Quoting GoCOgo (reply 12):
I imagine that would be 762 service.

heard rumors that it may be with a 752 with winglets. still to be announce

Pbb152 · Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:30 am

RDUCO,

Someone already mentioned to you on another thread that the 757's even with the winglets won't have nearly enough range to do EWR-LOS nonstop. All indications so far point to the route being served by a 767-200.

Pete

travelin man · Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:17 am

Quoting ETStar (reply 38):
Here we go again, yet another thread that has to bash the Nigerians and their perceived ways

Ummm... I don't think it is "Nigerian bashing". From the State Department: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/tw/tw_928.html

The Department of State warns U.S. citizens of the dangers of travel to Nigeria. Conditions in Nigeria pose considerable risks to travelers.

Violent crime committed by ordinary criminals, as well as by persons in police and military uniforms, can occur throughout the country. Kidnapping for ransom of persons associated with the petroleum sector, including U.S. citizens, remains common in the Niger Delta area.

Religious tension between some Muslim and Christian communities results in occasional acts of isolated communal violence that could erupt quickly and without warning. The states of Kano and Kaduna are particularly volatile. Rival ethnic groups have clashed violently in the Niger Delta region around Warri city and in Southeast Plateau State.

Periodically, travel by U.S. mission personnel is restricted based on changing security conditions. U.S. citizens should contact the U.S. Embassy in Abuja or the U.S. Consulate General in Lagos for up-to-date information on these restrictions.

Use of public transportation throughout Nigeria can be dangerous and should be avoided. Taxis pose risks because of the possibility of fraudulent or criminal operators, old and unsafe vehicles, and poorly maintained roads. Most Nigerian airlines have aging fleets, and maintenance and operational procedures may be inadequate to ensure passenger safety.

MAH4546 · Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:19 am

Quoting RDUCO (reply 39):

heard rumors that it may be with a 752 with winglets. still to be announce

No, it won't be. The 752, even with winglets, cannot make it.

Quoting ETStar (reply 38):
Here we go again, yet another thread that has to bash the Nigerians and their perceived ways... I would be more worried to be in places like Harlem and the LA area.

Bash the Nigerians? It is a simple fact that Lagos is not a safe place. That's not bashing Nigerians. Other areas of Nigeria, such as Abuja, aren't so dangerous, but Lagos is.

I think it is funny you talk about percieved notions and then mention Harlem, clearly ignoring it's recent resurrgence.

TWA902fly · Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:25 am

If i remember correctly, Air France has a corporate jet stationed in Accra or Abidjan, so after the crew flies to LOS, they get on the corporate jet and fly across the border, where they overnight, and return on the same jet for the flight back to CDG... anyone know if they still do that?

TWA902

MAH4546 · Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:37 am

Quoting TWA902fly (reply 43):
If i remember correctly, Air France has a corporate jet stationed in Accra or Abidjan, so after the crew flies to LOS, they get on the corporate jet and fly across the border, where they overnight, and return on the same jet for the flight back to CDG... anyone know if they still do that?

Yes, they do. I don't recall where the jet goes, it is certainly not Abidjan (which has sadly fallen onto unpeaceful times lately). I believe it is Accra or Abuja. I'm surprised they fly a corporate jet instead of just flying the whole plane and making some extra revenue like Lufthansa does.

N1120A · Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:37 am

Quoting Behramjee (reply 15):
JNB-NBO-CPT are too far for nonstop B 772ER flights with full payload capacity for CO from EWR to undertake.

None of the 3 are too far. With ETOPS 180, it is absolutely possible. So far, however, ETOPS 180 has not been granted on that route.

Quoting Behramjee (reply 15):
Soon 3-4 CO B 777s will be devoted to daily EWR-PEK-EWR flights and others are used on EWR-HKG-EWR daily (3-4), EWR-LGW, IAH-LGW etc etc.

The 787, if they hold on to them, will be able to any of these routes.

Quoting TWA902fly (reply 43):
If i remember correctly, Air France has a corporate jet stationed in Accra or Abidjan

Well, it would not be in Abidjan at this point. ACC is an important safe point for all european airlines on their way to Cote d'Ivoire or Nigeria

klwright69 · Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:56 pm

Well, if there will be no local traffic between Accra and Lagos, won't that make the unprofitability of that extra tag kind of defeat the profit potential of the route?

Again, if LOS is so unsafe? Will this route be so lucrative for CO to begin service with their own metal instead of just a codeshare?

Where does BA put up their crews? Sabena? KLM? and so on?

CALMSP · Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:26 pm

well, we can always move GVA or BRU to twice daily 75Bs....to open another widebody.......otherwise I'm not sure what we would do if we were to go with seperate flights to each. My friend always flew BWI-ACC on Ghana Air......so I'm sure we could do two seperate flights......does anyone know what the flight times would most likely be? Ar ethey like most european flights where ground time is around 2 hours?

Falcon84 · Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:36 pm

Heard a rumor today that the LOS flight is history, and will never happen. Maybe the Accra service is a new venue in Africa to introduce the CO name.

I have a feeling that you'll see the word "codeshare" between CO and the new Ghana International Airlines. Smile

CALMSP · Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:27 pm

i'm not so sure about that......our top execs and other directors that i have spoken to personally are really excited about this new venture...of course there are going to be a share of problems....but the expected $$$$'s are to much to pass up.

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