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padcrasher
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DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:51 am

DL had been #2 in terms of passenger boardings but now exceeds in the more common RPM/RPK measurement as well.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050303/clth057_1.html

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050303/cgth053_1.html
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:55 am

Something tells me this is going to turn into an ATL/ORD thing. They'll keep swapping places as one airline increases service and the other decreases and vice versa.
 
SESGDL
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:12 pm

I wonder how long it will be before this is made official. It should also be noticed that DL and AA are neck and neck in terms of Domestic RPKs, showing how much AA has diminished the takeover of TWA. AA has had 13.4 billion Domestic RPKs, with DL having 13.1 billion. I'm happy to see that DL is growing, hopefully they've gotten their situation straightened out. It looks as if DL's hub restructuring has worked well, with RPKs, passengers, and load factors all up in the month of February. Go Delta!

Jeremy
 
QFA001
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:26 pm

Shouldn't the subject line read, "UA undertakes DL as world's number 3".  yes 
 
padcrasher
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:31 pm

Yes UA has given DL some help that is for sure.

Look at Skyteam now. They consist of the 2nd, 4th, 5th, and 6th largest airlines in the World to mention a few.
 
Azul320
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:33 pm

Now JetBlue doesn't have that big of a thing, and look how much motion in industry's ocean they are creating.
Excuse me, while I kiss the sky
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:35 pm

Three words: Hub and Spoke. If I interpret this information correctly, they are only counting boardings (the act of boarding a plane). This means that every passenger that has connection(s) is actually counted twice or more on the books. The real indicator should be the O&D (origin & destination) count - how many passengers flew a certain airline for a trip, not how many passengers just got on a plane.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
padcrasher
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:38 pm

The historic standard is RPMs or RPKs. Delta surpassed UA in this respect. They were already ahead in boardings.
 
Lockheed1011
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:58 pm

Also Deltas has a better product!

When you are looking for flights and fares, you'll find better connecting and flights with them. To Europe, codesharing with AF, AZ and KL it is sweet.

UA/LH codeshares are the biggest problem when you are on the Travel Industry side. When ever you need assistance with a reservation to Europe booked in UA on LH flights, forget it!!!!!!!!!  Smile You call UA and they tell you to call LH since they cannot do it. Then you call LH and you get the same story and God forbid there is a segment in between from BD, OS or SK. Forget about customer service or even getting seats. No one helps, no one wants to take responsibility and the poor flying customer gets stock with crappy seats and bad service.
I am happy Delta is growing and making the fares easier not just to the travelers, but also the people that sells them.

Keep the excellent work, Delta!  Wink
 
Meteorologist
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:43 pm

Now the real question is how long until Northwest overtakes UA for #3 and Skyteam occupies #2, #3, #5, and #6...
 
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lightsaber
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:34 pm

First congratulations to DL. I didn't realize they were that close!  spin 

Quoting QFA001 (reply 3):
Shouldn't the subject line read, "UA undertakes DL as world's number 3".
If UA had grown even a little over the last year, they would still be #2 in RPM/RPK.  scratchchin  If US doesn't get their act together, UA will lose a bit in code-share. If there isn't a turn around in the $$$ it will soon be  white  for UA too.

Quoting SESGDL (reply 2):
AA has had 13.4 billion Domestic RPKs, with DL having 13.1 billion.
Its a race folks!  checkeredflag 

Quoting FriendlySkies (reply 1):
Something tells me this is going to turn into an ATL/ORD thing. They'll keep swapping places as one airline increases service and the other decreases and vice versa.
True, but ATL is getting a new runway next summer and a new terminal soon. ORD's expansion is...  banghead 

Lightsaber
ps, I like the new smilies...
4 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:12 pm

Good to see that DL is now #2 in both important statistics (RPMs and Pax). And just by looking at the system traffic for February, which grew 9.7% year over year, AA shouldn't feel so safe either. Not to mention DL has already flown over 1 million pax more than last year-to-date. Things are starting to look good for DL again, and I'm sure the combination of Simplifares and more p2p flights can be accounted for that.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:38 pm

Keep in mind however, that DL is only larger than UA because DL owns its two regional affiliates. UA doesn't own any of its regionals and therefore doesn't count their traffic.

If you compare only mainline RPM's, UA is still larger than DL.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:10 pm

Quoting Lockheed1011 (reply 9):
Also Deltas has a better product


They treat you the same in Y class......a soda and a bag of nuts in a cramped seat. Whats so different about that??
One Nation Under God
 
travelin man
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:08 am

Quoting Lockheed1011 (reply 9):
Also Deltas has a better product!


I think it is "unarguable" to say Delta has surpassed United in terms of RPMs/RPKs. But a "better product"? Hardly. Delta Economy class is abyssmal (not even offering an Economy Plus-type product), and Biz/First ain't that great either (at least domestically).
 
burnsie28
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:44 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (reply 7):
Three words: Hub and Spoke. If I interpret this information correctly, they are only counting boardings (the act of boarding a plane). This means that every passenger that has connection(s) is actually counted twice or more on the books. The real indicator should be the O&D (origin & destination) count - how many passengers flew a certain airline for a trip, not how many passengers just got on a plane.



Wow, and yet how do you think Southwest says they are the largest, well when you have someone connecting on average of 3-4 times on WN, then thats double a legacy carrier.
 
jumbojet
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:31 am

some of you actually think that only Delta customers connect? so do United, American, Cont, etc... Can't we just be happy for Delta, considering they were on the brink not to long ago?

steve
 
sshank
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:31 am

Also Deltas has a better product!

Huh?? UA E+ is by far the best coach product among all mainline carriers. Between UA and Delta is no contest.
 
tockeyhockey
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:42 am

size means very little. it's profitability that counts.

if delta is losing a dollar for every pax, then you'd want fewer customers, not more!

it's like silo and hechinger's -- two bloated companies from the 80s and 90s. they lost money every day, and they compounded that by growing bigger, making their losses greater.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:51 am

Quoting Tockeyhockey (reply 19):
size means very little. it's profitability that counts.


Absolutely...I'm sure everyone remembers who posted a record loss for 2004. It wasn't UA.  Wink
 
AA7573E
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:59 am

UA E+ is by far the best coach product among all mainline carriers. Between UA and Delta is no contest.

Not by a long shot. Every major travel magazine survey published for 2004 contradicts your statement, but you are entitled to your opinion.
See you up front!
 
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727stretch
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 4:35 am

Yes, this is good news for DL. But why do some think they are "out of the woods" ? Their massive schedule restructuring just took place a month or two ago, so it's too early on a macro scale to see any effects. They posted an industry record loss for 2004 and have a lot of work to do to effectively compete with other carriers, legacy and LCC.

While DL may be growing in terms of RPM/boardings, the #1 definition of a carrier's product is their route structure, followed by service, alliances, etc. With regards to route structure, DL is not even close to being on top.

Just my two cents.
 
dl757md
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 4:58 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (reply 20):
I'm sure everyone remembers who posted a record loss for 2004.


Of course we do. But hover the cursor over the time in your system tray. Oh yeah it says 2005! I know you Delta haters out there won't believe that the changes that Delta has made in compensation, productivity, price structure and other areas won't make much of a difference. Only time will tell(so far it's been very successful). Let's talk about it again at the end of 2005.

Dl757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
ALB2ATL
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 6:52 am

I recently switched to DL from US Airways - due to the fact that I fly ALB2ATL 2x/mo. Coach is MUCH better on DL(more room (fact), more professional f/a's, in my opinion). I like UA's E+ product, but it's not available to every coach passenger.
 
bravo7e7
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 7:01 am

Quoting AA7573E (reply 21):
UA E+ is by far the best coach product among all mainline carriers. Between UA and Delta is no contest.

Not by a long shot. Every major travel magazine survey published for 2004 contradicts your statement, but you are entitled to your opinion.


Have you ever heard of something we call a link?
 
bravo7e7
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 7:19 am

Quoting Padcrasher (reply 5):
Look at Skyteam now. They consist of the 2nd, 4th, 5th, and 6th largest airlines in the World to mention a few

Which airlines would those be?

Quoting Lockheed1011 (reply 9):
Also Deltas has a better product!

Maybe you misread the topic. It did not ask which airline has a product, but rather said that DL overtook UA at the #2 spot. If you want to talk about who has a better product that in no way reflects the size of the airline.
Quoting Lockheed1011 (reply 9):
UA/LH codeshares are the biggest problem when you are on the Travel Industry side. When ever you need assistance with a reservation to Europe booked in UA on LH flights, forget it!!!!!!!!! You call UA and they tell you to call LH since they cannot do it. Then you call LH and you get the same story and God forbid there is a segment in between from BD, OS or SK. Forget about customer service or even getting seats. No one helps, no one wants to take responsibility and the poor flying customer gets stock with crappy seats and bad service.
I am happy Delta is growing and making the fares easier not just to the travelers, but also the people that sells them.


Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

I am a UA 1K and have never experienced anything of the such. No one helps?ROFLMAO. Their agents must be among the friendliest and most helpful in the world.

Quoting Lightsaber (reply 11):
If UA had grown even a little over the last year, they would still be #2 in RPM/RPK. If US doesn't get their act together, UA will lose a bit in code-share. If there isn't a turn around in the $$$ it will soon be for UA too.


Remind me, who had the largest loss in HISTORY last year. Smile

Quoting FlyPNS1 (reply 13):
Keep in mind however, that DL is only larger than UA because DL owns its two regional affiliates. UA doesn't own any of its regionals and therefore doesn't count their traffic.

If you compare only mainline RPM's, UA is still larger than DL.

Precisely
Quoting ALB2ATL (reply 24):


Quoting ALB2ATL (reply 24):
I recently switched to DL from US Airways - due to the fact that I fly ALB2ATL 2x/mo. Coach is MUCH better on DL(more room (fact), more professional f/a's, in my opinion).


Oh boy are you giving me a good laugh. Can you say 31 inches?

[Edited 2005-03-04 23:20:49]
 
PHXinterrupted
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 7:31 am

"Also Deltas has a better product!"

Oh brother, both airlines are lacking in comfort and service particularly on international routes.
Keepin' it real.
 
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PA110
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 7:36 am

Quoting Lockheed1011 (reply 9):
UA/LH codeshares are the biggest problem when you are on the Travel Industry side. When ever you need assistance with a reservation to Europe booked in UA on LH flights, forget it!!!!!!!!!


I couldn't disagree with you more! DL is the absolute least cooperative carrier I've ever worked with. 2 years ago, they flew me out to meet all the folks that work their special support desks in ATL. A few weeks later, they announce that the support desks will no longer be able to assist on 90% of my requests. Guess where all that revenue went?

I sell over $6m+ on Star Alliance carriers (UA/LH/SK/OS) and have no problems whatsoever. They provide tremendous support and assistance, even on cross codeshares. Don't know who you're speaking to dude, but you're definitely not talking to the right folks.
Look, it's been swell, but the swelling's gone down.
 
alb222
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 7:41 am

Quoting BRAVO7E7 (reply 26):
Which airlines would those be?


DL, AF, NW, CO I believe.

Quoting BRAVO7E7 (reply 26):
Remind me, who had the largest loss in HISTORY

Remind me, who has been in Chapter 11 over 2 years and keeps seeking extensions?

Quoting BRAVO7E7 (reply 26):
Oh boy are you giving me a good laugh. Can you say 31 inches?

And to the average non-elite coach customer, who has more other than Song and B6?

Opinions are great.................but facts are facts. DL is #2. In actuality, it means nothing. What does mean something is what they did in February...up 9.6%. Will it help? Not if oil goes out of sight...............all of the carriers will be in big trouble including WN with their oil hedges.
 
GSPITNL
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 7:53 am

Can you say you are arrogant BRAVO7E7

For everyone like me that has Medallion status with DL and think they have the best product, Lets all congregate them in this achievement.

For you DL hatters like BRAVO7E7. If you want to support a BANKRUPT airline be my guest. Frankly, DL might have posted the biggest loss in history but we sure as heck aint bankrupt like US and UA.

Common Sense Folks

Congrats Delta!
Fly Delta - The Only Way To Fly! Silver Medallion Baby :)
 
padcrasher
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:05 am

A couple of points.

Delta's record loss came about because of huge write down in goodwill. A loss on paper only in that respect. If you look at operational lossess Delta has come nowhere near what AA and UA have lost in the past.

Also Delta also owns the record for US airlines for yearly profit back in the 90's. 95? Over 1 Billion. I think only Singapore airline might have exceeded that one year.
 
padcrasher
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:09 am

This UA E+ is a white elephant. Do you realize they are only getting 100 seats per 757? versus 199 on Song. They are getting nowhere near double the RASM they would need to make that work. And AA is still getting a higher yield between LAX and JFK.
 
bravo7e7
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:20 am

Quoting Padcrasher (reply 32):
This UA E+ is a white elephant. Do you realize they are only getting 100 seats per 757?


What is wrong with the people on this board?
If you are referring to P.S service it takes 110+ passangers.
http://seatguru.com/airlines/United_...ted_Airlines_Boeing_757-200_PS.php
This is a special service, and not the average 757. the other UA 757 including eco+ carry 182.
 
Qantasclub
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:21 am

Both airlines are the most obvious example in the world of how the biggest is often far from the best...
Long Haul is the only way to go
 
padcrasher
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:23 am

110 that is right. But it still the wrong strategy for the price enviroment today.

But who am I to say. UA Mgrs must know better. They've been in Chapter 11 for two years and still manage to lose 3 Mil a day.
 
bravo7e7
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:24 am

Quoting GSPITNL (reply 30):
Can you say you are arrogant BRAVO7E7

For everyone like me that has Medallion status with DL and think they have the best product, Lets all congregate them in this achievement.

For you DL hatters like BRAVO7E7. If you want to support a BANKRUPT airline be my guest. Frankly, DL might have posted the biggest loss in history but we sure as heck aint bankrupt like US and UA.

Common Sense Folks

Congrats Delta!

I used to fly Delta, but switched to UA not to long ago. I in NO way hate them. As a matter of fact, they are one of my favorite. I recently swithched becasue in my opinion they have a third rate alliance, have bad award travel, offer international upgrades, offer eco+, and offer more interesting destinations then any other carrier. I am not arrogant, just trying to counter the UA haters on this board.
 
bravo7e7
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:26 am

Quoting Padcrasher (reply 35):
110 that is right. But it still the wrong strategy for the price enviroment today.

But who am I to say. UA Mgrs must know better. They've been in Chapter 11 for two years and still manage to lose 3 Mil a day.


How often do I have to correct you, Ms. Armchair CEO? Get your facts right. Could you give me a link(I know it is unheard of for you) to where you found this info of 3 million a day. I, for one, as a passanger enjoy economy plus.
Armchair CEO is apparently a female

[Edited 2005-03-05 00:32:54]
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:28 am

Quoting Padcrasher (reply 32):
This UA E+ is a white elephant. Do you realize they are only getting 100 seats per 757? versus 199 on Song. They are getting nowhere near double the RASM they would need to make that work. And AA is still getting a higher yield between LAX and JFK.


Not sure which airplanes you're talking about, but UA's 752s have a total of 182 seats...the p.s. product can't be used for comparison, as it's used on two routes and aimed at high yield customers, hence the large number of first and business seats. Also, p.s. equipped aircraft have 110 seats, not 100, and about 1/3 of those are high yield seats. Premium Service doesn't work like the rest of the airline, because there is a VERY LARGE premium market between JFK and SFO/LAX. That means people (or companies) are paying full price for all those business and first seats, or at least a large portion of them.

Standard:



p.s.:



On a side note, it was CO that was losing $3 mil a day. UA isn't the only one that's hurt. Not one major in the US is making a dime. NONE.

[Edited 2005-03-05 00:34:18]
 
padcrasher
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:30 am

"Both airlines are the most obvious example in the world of how the biggest is often far from the best..."

Spoken like yet another snob who's country has one dominant National carrier that gouges the customers for all their worth.

What US carriers lack in quality they more than make up for in value.
 
padcrasher
Topic Author
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:38 am

Here you go Mr Bravo. This is the last time I do your work for you. Remember you must divide by 30.

"CHICAGO (AP) — United Airlines' parent company reported a $326 million net loss for January, citing its latest heavy restructuring costs coupled with weak seasonal demand and high fuel costs for the world's second largest airline.
The results reported Friday by UAL were worse than the $252 million net loss in the same month a year ago and fell short of the benchmark originally set by its bankruptcy lenders. However, the company negotiated a waiver from those banks earlier this month to avoid being in violation of its financing covenant.

The holding company for United Airlines, which has not turned a profit since 2000, said it had an operating loss of $151 million in January despite a 3% increase in passenger revenue.

Reorganization expenses totaled $138 million and fuel costs for the month were $63 million higher than a year ago on flat capacity.
 
padcrasher
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:46 am

Friendly

The Premium revenue between the East Coast and West Coast is almost gone. Yields are half of what they were in the past. UA is pursuing a strategy of going after these last dinosaurs. They are failing miserably.
 
bravo7e7
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:46 am

Yeah, they had a bad month in January, as do all airlines. This in no way reflects their average daily losses.
Since you brought this up, lets use Delta as an example over a three month period. the last quarter they lost 2.2 billion dollars. That means 24 million+ losses a day. That makes three million seem pretty good.
 
bravo7e7
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:48 am

Quoting Padcrasher (reply 41):
Friendly

The Premium revenue between the East Coast and West Coast is almost gone. Yields are half of what they were in the past. UA is pursuing a strategy of going after these last dinosaurs. They are failing miserably.


What? This has proven to work out quite well for UA, which is why they are considering expanding it.
 
padcrasher
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:48 am

Wait a minute guy. You said you were correcting me about the 3 Mil a day?

First of all you need to admit you were wrong. And then please explain how "this one bad Month" will be better in February?....LOL
 
Alitalia744
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:49 am

Quoting BRAVO7E7 (reply 26):
Oh boy are you giving me a good laugh. Can you say 31 inches?


oddly enough, the MD-88 and 763's I flew on two weeks ago had full 33" pitch available in some of the economy seats...

UAL however, unless you are in E+, only offers 31" pitch. So validate yourself before talking Bravo7E7 cuz the only 7E7 your airline is going to see is the model sitting in Chicago
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
alb222
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:50 am

Quoting Padcrasher (reply 40):
Reorganization expenses totaled $138 million


At least the lawyers are turning a profit. Bottom line is UA was in trouble before 9/11, before high oil prices and before the downturn in the economy. Sadly, UA was mismanaged into the sorry state it is in today.

And for those of you who are still young and have not travelled incessantly for 10-20 30-40 years, you have no concept nor idea what this industry is all about. Burn me for that statement.................but saying one airline sucks as compared to another is bull. Nobody wants to see this industry in the dire straits that it is in. The legacies, all of them never could have visualized 9/11 and the concept of the LCC. If the legacies could do it all over, don't you think that they would pay everyone WN/B6 rates? No matter how much costs are cut, they are in a very unenviable position. Funny thing, for the most part, fares on legacies are the same as LCC's but in limited amounts.
So, all of you well informed bashers, if you are so smart, how about coming up with a solution!
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:52 am

Quoting Padcrasher (reply 41):
The Premium revenue between the East Coast and West Coast is almost gone. Yields are half of what they were in the past. UA is pursuing a strategy of going after these last dinosaurs. They are failing miserably.


Do you work for United? Or American? Or any airline operating this segment? Are you a market anaylst, or an aviation consultant? Are you a financial advisor? This market IS NOT disappearing. Any thought to the contrary is ignorant. Show me proof, and I'll believe you. There is still a very large premium market between LAX and SFO, and it demands a premium product. UA has given this market a new product on par with international service, which beats AA's product. If there was no market, UA would not have created a new service to serve it, and AA wouldn't be offering premium service either. If you don't know what you're talking about, don't post.
 
bravo7e7
Posts: 1162
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 1:43 am

RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:53 am

Quoting Padcrasher (reply 44):
Wait a minute guy. You said you were correcting me about the 3 Mil a day?

First of all you need to admit you were wrong. And then please explain how "this one bad Month" will be better in February?....LOL


Um, no that was over a short period of time. I was hoping you could prove that on average through bankruptcy they are losing 3 mil a day. The month will be better in Feb. because traditionally January is the WORST month in the airline industry, due to low load factors.
 
padcrasher
Topic Author
Posts: 1815
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:17 am

RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:56 am

hey bravo

I'm really losing interest here. They actually were losing 5 mil a day in January and you're telling me in February they will not be losing 3 mil a day?

Also what is your source that UA P.S will be expanded?
 
bravo7e7
Posts: 1162
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 1:43 am

RE: DL Overtakes UA As World's #2

Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:58 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (reply 45):
oddly enough, the MD-88 and 763's I flew on two weeks ago had full 33" pitch available in some of the economy seats...


Key word: in SOME
In SOME seats they also have 30" pitch Wink
http://seatguru.com/airlines/Delta_A...elta_Airlines_Boeing_767-300_D.php

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