AA And The Fully Flat Business Class Seat.

AA767400 · Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:05 am

What is the deal with AA and their fully flat seats? I heard that they were looking at some new seats and liked them. The question is, have they found a new seat? And when are they going to start the conversion? Will they be the same amount of seats on the 763? What about the 772?

Maybe good old MAH6546 can help on this one.

Airlinerfreak · Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:11 am

Yes they have found the new seat and they will be putting them in when they take out the MRTC, or so I hear. Also the 772 already has a nice enough business class seat, IMHO, and to the best of my knowlege for that matter. But expect to see them in fully by next summer if not ass soon as the end of the 4Q of this year.

AA767400 · Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:40 am

Are you kidding airlinefreak? The 777 has the same crappy seats as the 763 in business class. To compete AA needs a fully flat seat in both the 772, and the 763. When it comes to 3-class transcon, I think UA's PM service is pretty nice. I mean they have fully flat seats in first which AA does not have on their 762s. To really compete there needs to be new seats on their planes.

daron4000 · Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:23 pm

What are these seats going to be like, how will they afford them, and what will this mean for UA, their main international competitor?

Skyguy · Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:48 pm

Apart from just installing fully-flat seats on their international business class routes and widebody aircraft, they need to also upgrade the service on the flight. The F/A's need some major re-training, I fly JFK-NRT on AA in J class frequently and the amenities offered, the attitude of the F/A's (..all of whom look like they should have retired already) and the the general quality of service is below that of what it's peers offer. AA can do better but its management is riddled with complex problems and inertia that its going to be a herculean task for AA to be considered in the same ranks as SQ, BQ, CX, EK for quality of product and service.

airgeek12 · Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:59 pm

AA definitly has a really bad Business Class product. Competition, such as BA and LH, really out rank them.

incitatus · Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:24 am

Quoting Skyguy (Reply 4):
, the attitude of the F/A's (..all of whom look like they should have retired already) and the the general quality of service is below that of what it's peers offer.

1/3 of my experiences are as you describe. But 2/3 of the time I receive outstanding warm service on American and I prefer that to the Singapore robots.

AA767400 · Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:24 am

SKYGUY,

That is a big problem in the U.S. with all airlines. But in all fairness, You can't compare a North American airline with the likes of SQ,CX, and EK. I mean there is no comparison at all. Those airlines are world class!

Ken777 · Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:25 am

I'm starting to believe that AA will install better business seats when they can buy them used from another airline - at a very good price.

I will admit that one of AA's problems is the number of free upgrades that they have to hand out for their frequent flyers. I would bet that a strong majority of the people in business and first have been moved up after buying the cheapest fare possible. All traditional US airlines face this problem, making the seats up front a lot less profitable than most of the better international airlines.

AA7573E · Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:30 am

It is not possible to upgrade from coach to first on a three class format in AA. You can only upgrade one class of service.

As an 6 year Platinum member of the advantage program, I can tell you that the free upgrades are becoming a bit more scarce. When you take a look at the price that you can buy first class tickets for on AA.com, it is easy to see why. First class tickets are no longer out of reach for the everyday traveler. Couple that with the savings that all airlines are achieving by more efficiently running the airline, and there is a bit more profitability in the front of the plane than there used to be. If this was not true, United would of never done PS, all the majors would get rid of domestic first, and the LCC model would take over all the majors.

The long and the short of it is AA will upgrade their J class, and likely breathe a bit of fresh air into first class as well. I would expect it to come in conjunction with some new international service (i.e. China and new European offerings) in the very near future.

TACAA320 · Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:58 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 6):
But 2/3 of the time I receive outstanding warm service on American and I prefer that to the Singapore robots.

As we all know, everyone is entitle to their very own opinion, but AA is crap compared with SQ.

zak · Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:10 am

fully flat seats are way overrated, very similar to ptv's. lufthansa, being one of the biggest and also most profitable airlines still does not have ptvs in economy and their new biz "only" features beds that do not recline to a even, flat surface

Lowsonboy · Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:49 am

I flew with AA LHR-JFK last week in Y-class, and had the most comfortable trans-Atlantic flight ever by a long way (unless you count NZ). MRTC was refreshing because it is unusual to see an airline care about it's lowest fare-paying pax by providing them enough room.
As for a fully flat business class seat - who really gives a damn? There are probably about 20 pax on the flight who it affects - most of whom aren't paying out of their own pocket anyway. I'd rather see AA charge slightly more for their fares (because, let's face it, GBP 220 for LON-NYC is almost unrealistically cheap) and provide a slightly better service - for example: a "snack box" for breakfast on an overnight flight is simply not enough IMHO.... also, check in at JFK was an embarrassment, and this is from someone that works for a company that services some of the cheapest bucket and spade airlines in the UK.

daron4000 · Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:01 am

I agree! SQ and Star Alliance Rule

AA767400 · Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:22 am

check in at JFK was an embarrassment,

You got that right! But that will all change in april with the new terminal, Thank god!

tundra767 · Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:29 am

No to the site...But have to say I like the 777 J Class... What I do miss however is the 3 class 763 with the Coffin F seats! I remember flying CDG-SJC when they had it being the only one up there now that was style!

NYCAAer · Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:31 am

AA management has told us that having flat seats in business class is a priority, but that financial problems are slowing the process of replacing them. There will be a reduction of seats in the Business Class cabin of the 767-300, from the current 30 to either 22 or 24, depending on what they decide to do. I havent' heard anything about the 777 yet, but I think the 763s will be upgraded first, due to the lack of a first class cabin.

incitatus · Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:41 am

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 10):
As we all know, everyone is entitle to their very own opinion, but AA is crap compared with SQ.

Your statement says "I" have an opinion, but the other people like you "know". Get over it. Singapore may have better business/first class cabins, but in standard coach I'll take American any day.

FLY2LIM · Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:34 pm

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 10):
As we all know, everyone is entitle to their very own opinion, but AA is crap compared with SQ.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 17):
Your statement says "I" have an opinion, but the other people like you "know". Get over it. Singapore may have better business/first class cabins, but in standard coach I'll take American any day.

TACAA320:
We have disagreed in the past and we disagree again. I don't know anything about SQ and have nothing to say about them. But as a loyal AA customer, my statistic is that about 95% of the time I get excellent service on both domestic and international. You know, sometimes the problem isn't with the f/a but, rather, with the person they have to deal with. I can imagine the problem gets exacerbated when you are dealing with a pax in J or F class.
As you said, everyone is entitled to their opinion. We know your opinion will always be to bash AA at any cost.
FLY2LIM

Qantasclub · Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:13 pm

Don't you love how AA are only now starting to realise that flat business class beds may be a good idea, years after most of the world's international airlines already have them installed as part of their standard J class product? It's just a joke, really. Even if they DID install flat beds, what about everything else that is attached to the term 'service'? This airline over the last few years has systematically dismantled eveything pleasurable about the inflight experience.

AA IS CRAP compared to not only SQ, but just about every other major international carrier in the world.

The battle is over...flat beds or the same AA drugery...AA has lost. And their 'profits' will confirm this.

tpac · Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:28 pm

Yes AA Business Class seats are pure crAAp. For whatever reason, AA was way behind the 8 ball on the lie flat product. I think most airlines now have a better product than AA does today.

tbear815 · Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:51 pm

If anyone has complaints, particularly for service and mileage programs, ask AA management. They started the whole mileage bit so the rest of the world is now getting the brunt of their stupidity. AA "was" a good airline; they just had greedy and poor management (EA, PA, PI, PS, OC and others fall into this category).

My two cents.

Tbear

aeronuts · Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:26 pm

AA Business Class is not bad, they're just not as good as others.

aa777jr · Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:45 pm

All the international flying I've done on AA (100+ segments) in J and F class has been pretty good. I wouldn't know any different, as I have yet to go to Europe on another carrier, and I was on codeshare QF flights to Australia both times. I've have to admit, the lay-flat seats I've had the pleasure of riding shotgun in for 8+ hrs haven't exactly been that great. I don't even expect this to add a great amount of profit to AA when they do switch it out. Perhaps the business traveller making a flight on the 763 to Europe will enjoy it more, but for me, it's not a priority.

Bring on the 787 AA! bouncy

Regards.

AA767400 · Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:06 pm

Quoting Qantasclub (Reply 19):
Don't you love how AA are only now starting to realize that flat business class beds may be a good idea,

Oh they realized it a longtime ago, they just watched everyone else to see how it works like they always do. Silly

Quoting Qantasclub (Reply 19):
AA IS CRAP

Because In your eyes Qantasclub, AA is not good enough because they don't serve the crappy dried up salmon that QF serves on a 40 minute flight. And my friend I will give you that AA can't compare to Asian airlines, but don't exaggerate that it is the worst possible airline in the world, because IB,EI, and AC to name a few hold that title. You obviously have not been on any of those airlines.

Paul · Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:19 pm

I fly on UA in Business Every year and think that their seats on the 777 are great. I think the way to combat the problem of trying to have a flatter seating surface in Business Class is to make the leg rest come up higher. With a 55inch seat pitch there is plenty of room to bring the leg rest up more, even when the person infront has reclined their chair there is still at least 1.5 feet of space between the back of the chair infront and the tops of your feet.

The old school arm chairs are generally wider and more comfortable than the angled flat seat (except SQ who has such a wide seat), many complaints about Lie Flat are regarding the rigity of the chair. UA and AA just need to raise the leg rest so it is slightly higher and creates a flatter surface.

There is enough room so dont anyone tell me there is not! Wink

If UA, AA did this they would not need to spend a fortune on new seats and could pump the money into better IFE and Service.

Paul

AA787 · Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:59 am

I had heard that these seats will look like the LH ne J class seats. Can anyone confirm this or refute it. Pictures of what the seats will look like would be the best of course!

AA787

Starlionblue · Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:49 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 8):
I would bet that a strong majority of the people in business and first have been moved up after buying the cheapest fare possible.

Not on international flights.

Quoting Lowsonboy (Reply 12):
As for a fully flat business class seat - who really gives a damn? There are probably about 20 pax on the flight who it affects - most of whom aren't paying out of their own pocket anyway.

Biz and First are the moneymakers, so AA does give a damn.

LHSTR · Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:53 pm

Quoting AA787 (Reply 26):
I had heard that these seats will look like the LH ne J class seats. Can anyone confirm this or refute it. Pictures of what the seats will look like would be the best of course!

Seats like the LH seat are becoming the standard. Yesterday, I have been to the ITB, a huge tourism fair in Berlin, and saw a lot of airlines represented on that fair. Most seem to install lie flat, but slightly angled Business Class seats on their airplanes. With the exception of BA, which however has about half the seats facing backwards on their planes, and SQ this seems to be an industry trend.

Actually, does anybody know when EK is planning to install new C-class seats on their airplanes? A 2-3-2 configuration with old cradle seats does not really seem to be competitive against the new c-class products offered by other airlines.

Qantasclub · Sun Mar 13, 2005 5:00 pm

AA767400:
Quoting Qantasclub (Reply 19):
Don't you love how AA are only now starting to realize that flat business class beds may be a good idea,

Oh they realized it a longtime ago, they just watched everyone else to see how it works like they always do........

you're kidding right?

RE:AA can't compare to Asian airlines, but don't exaggerate that it is the worst possible airline in the world, because IB,EI, and AC to name a few hold that title. You obviously have not been on any of those airlines.

Uh, yes I have and believe me, AA is right there below with the worst of them. Seriously.

qqflyboy · Sun Mar 13, 2005 5:44 pm

AA has designed the seat they want in business class and have actually tested it with several plats at a special invite in Dallas. This was several months ago. I assume now the seat has undergone some modifications based on those tests. The business class cabin on the 763 will go from 30 to 22 seats. The last update we received about the seats was 2/8/05, but because of the competitive nature, no good information was revealed.

The funny thing is, those who bash AA's product as substandard will probably bash other airline's when AA's new seat is unveiled as it will surpass anything else already out there. Then, of course, someone else will out do AA... it's a cyclical cycle. Look at AA's Flagship Suite. When it first came out it was the talk of the industry, with the only certified swivel seat. Now, the product is several years old and has been out done by other carriers. No airline is going to replace their cabins every few years just to keep up with the Jone's.

Paul · Sun Mar 13, 2005 10:42 pm

Offering a Superior Business Class Product will have serious consequences on UA. Will they follow suit and implement a bed on international routes (like their PS Service internally in the U.S), is there any news on this, or are their debts restraining them from further development?

Paul

fbgdavidson · Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:44 pm

Quoting Lowsonboy (Reply 12):
As for a fully flat business class seat - who really gives a damn? There are probably about 20 pax on the flight who it affects - most of whom aren't paying out of their own pocket anyway. I'd rather see AA charge slightly more for their fares (because, let's face it, GBP 220 for LON-NYC is almost unrealistically cheap) and provide a slightly better service

I give a damn! I fly international business and like to see competitors up the standard the airline I fly is forced to make its J and F class better. It is the people at the front of the aircraft that keep your fares down the back so cheap.

And yes some us do pay for it out of our own pockets....

Starlionblue · Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:58 pm

Quoting Fbgdavidson (Reply 32):
Quoting Lowsonboy (Reply 12):
As for a fully flat business class seat - who really gives a damn? There are probably about 20 pax on the flight who it affects - most of whom aren't paying out of their own pocket anyway. I'd rather see AA charge slightly more for their fares (because, let's face it, GBP 220 for LON-NYC is almost unrealistically cheap) and provide a slightly better service

I give a damn! I fly international business and like to see competitors up the standard the airline I fly is forced to make its J and F class better. It is the people at the front of the aircraft that keep your fares down the back so cheap.

And yes some us do pay for it out of our own pockets....

Lol. Well you can be sure AA doesn't give a damn if the pax pays out of his own pocket or not.

AA787 · Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:04 am

Does anyone know if they will put these new seats on their transcon flights? I think it is needed considering UA's new Premium Service.

AA787

qqflyboy · Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:48 pm

I don't think AA will add these new seats to their three class domestic aircraft. If they do, they'd probably go in first class. The business class cabin on 763s is treated as near a first class experience as possible and the seats are likely to stay on these two-class aircraft only, as a way of differentiating the service. Besides, the seats on AA's 762s are more then adequate, and UA's PS business class seats don't have a whole lot more to offer then AA's j-class seats. First class is another thing, hence, the only reason I could see the new seat going into first on the 762.

UnitedStarGold · Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:05 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 33):
Well you can be sure AA doesn't give a damn if the pax pays out of his own pocket or not.

Sure they do. If fbgdavidson is paying out of his own pocket, he might well be paying full fare. If someone else is paying the bill, i.e. a corporation, the ticket might well be at a negotiated discount.

UnitedStarGold · Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:12 pm

Quoting Paul (Reply 25):
UA and AA just need to raise the leg rest so it is slightly higher and creates a flatter surface.

I fully agree. However, given that the current C-class seats on UA often have problems with the footrest not coming up or not staying up, I imagine that with an increased height, it would be even more problematic.

Quoting LHSTR (Reply 28):
Actually, does anybody know when EK is planning to install new C-class seats on their airplanes? A 2-3-2 configuration with old cradle seats does not really seem to be competitive against the new c-class products offered by other airlines.

The latest C-class offering from EK is on their A340-500. It is a shell-type seat, but it is not a flat-bed seat. EK's seats in the 2-3-2 configuration on the 777 is fine, but 2-3-2 on the A330 is much tighter (especially considering it was 2-2-2 on the A300s and A310s.

Quoting Paul (Reply 31):
Offering a Superior Business Class Product will have serious consequences on UA. Will they follow suit and implement a bed on international routes (like their PS Service internally in the U.S), is there any news on this, or are their debts restraining them from further development?

United actually has a fully flat/horizontal bed on its 3-class planes right now in first class, called the United First Suite. However, in business class, it is a cradle seat, even on P.S. The flat seat on P.S. is in first class. Hence, with the exception of the 763, all first class seats on United three-class aircraft offer fully flat seats.

miaskies · Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:14 pm

Although I see your point(s) with AA needing to be up to par w/ the rest of the "World Class" airlines, in my opinion the Business Class seats they have right now are not that bad at all. For markets like MIA-LAX or SFO, NYC-LAX or SFO. The majority of the major international routes on flights like Miami - Santiago, Miami - Madrid, Miami - Paris, Chicago - Rome, New York - Brussels for example; that are all 763ER flights now.

just my 2 cents...

AA7573E · Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:28 pm

The funniest part of this entire thread is that AA777jr wants us to believe he has flown 100+ international segments in any class, much less J or F.

Starlionblue · Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:05 am

Quoting AA7573E (Reply 39):
The funniest part of this entire thread is that AA777jr wants us to believe he has flown 100+ international segments in any class, much less J or F.

What's so funny about this? I have probably flown 200+ international segments in Monkey class...

AA787 · Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:13 am

UnitedStarGold-

AA has fully flat seats in first on it's main 3 class aircraft, the 777. On the 762 I was referring to the first class when I was asking about the seats (StarlionBlue, sorry not to have specified). The flat beds on the AA 777's are great (especially the Flagship Suites, so I've heard). That isn't what is being discussed it is the Business class on the 763 and 777 that need an upgrade.

AA787

AA767400 · Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:53 am

Quoting Qantasclub (Reply 29):

you're kidding right?

Oh come on, Everyone knows that AA likes to see what everyone else is doing first. Just like when they start a route and leave it the next month. These are all common AA practices.

Quoting Qantasclub (Reply 29):

Uh, yes I have and believe me, AA is right there below with the worst of them. Seriously.

Ok, so what other airlines do not fit your standards? Just curious, if you do not like AA that's fine but I would like to know what else you consider "crap".

AA787 · Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:53 am

Don't worry about Qantasclub all he does is bash AA. I don't understand, if you don't like an airline, don't make enemies and just not reply to the thread.

Your comments are pointless
AA787

LMP737 · Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:37 am

Quoting Qantasclub (Reply 19):
This airline over the last few years has systematically dismantled eveything pleasurable about the in flight experience.

Really? So I take it by that statement AA is SOLELY responsible for dismantling everything pleasurable about the in flight experience? You might want to read up on the history of the US airline industry.

P.S. Unlike Qantas AA is not the 500 pound gorilla among US carriers.

daron4000 · Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:27 am

Does anyone know how this will affect UA?

ozglobal · Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:52 am

Just out of curiosity, a question to American business travellers:

If your company's travel policy will send you business class international long haul, and everyone agrees AA's product is 'under-whelming', why do you stick with it, rather than go BA, SQ, QF or EK, etc?

i) Points? You can quickly rack these up on a few trips with another carrier
ii) Mis-placed loyalty?
iii) Frequency? Not very compelling on long haul.

There must be another reason. Perhaps your company has a preferred supplier policy.

Just curious...

qqflyboy · Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:44 am

OzGlobabl... likely it's two things that keep business traveller's at AA.

1) Contracts. It is likely the company has a specific travel arrangement directly with the airline that allow a fixed cost for employees to travel, and,

2) It's not that bad. Although AA does not have fully flat j-clas seats, they are still comfortable and the service is respectable. We put a lot of weight on the importance of fully-flat seats in this forum, but the truth is, it's not a deal breaker for most travelers.

The reasons you mention are far more relevant then you suggest, like frequent flyer miles. Things have to be severely wrong to get someone to switch who has elite status with a particular airline.

incitatus · Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:24 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 46):
Just out of curiosity, a question to American business travellers:

If your company's travel policy will send you business class international long haul, and everyone agrees AA's product is 'under-whelming', why do you stick with it, rather than go BA, SQ, QF or EK, etc?

Look at the business class of other US carriers. Except NW that revamped the cabin recently, most are very similar to AA's. Ever been on United FIRST CLASS longhaul in the 767-300s? AA's business class is better. Compared with other US carriers, AA is same if not better longhaul.
As for your question:
1. Corporate contracts
2. Ubiquity - AA goes places except in Asia beyond Japan

Qantasclub · Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:45 pm

LMP737: Really? So I take it by that statement AA is SOLELY responsible for dismantling everything pleasurable about the in flight experience? You might want to read up on the history of the US airline industry.

No, never did that AA is soley responsible for this, but it is one of the leaders in cutting back on basic service components.

Look, I know there are plenty of die-hard AA fans out there who hate hearing bad things about their airline, and it all boils down to the ever widening service differential between US majors vs international carriers who have been constantly updating their products every few years for several decades now. It's not hard to bash AA becaue they do a pretty good job of it themselves. My point is, what good is AA only now considering the fully flat business seat which has been an industry standard for so many years on international long haul routes and what about the rest of their 'service'? It's rather like getting excited about the jet engine in 1994.

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