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travellin'man
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Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:00 am

http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm

Did a 757 really fly into the Pentagon, or was it something else?

I posted this because I was curious to have people's responses on the visual evidence presented.

Let me say this. September 11 is an emotionally charged event for many of us. In the past when people have posted items that question "the official story", they were categorically dismissed, flamed instantly with all sorts of accusations of being paranoid conspiracy theorists; unfortunately the questions raised were often never answered.

It's hard not to get hot about this, but let's keep the discussion relatively scientific. It's clear how the makers of this video feel about the data they have gathered, but I would hope that that would not stop people here on the forum, who have a lot of experience in and around aviation from considering the questions raised based on the evidence provided.

What does this look like to all of you?
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Beaucaire
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:10 am

The issue has been discussed many times.
Even if someone would find any tangible proof that things did not happen as FBI and CIA explain it happened,hundreds of experts would proof the contrary.
So the issue is closed for the official America.
Anybody who dares putting the slightest doubts in the offical version is tied to conspiracy circles and classified as maniac.
In CIA we trust..... ( they were the ones who explained that Iraq had weapons of mass- destruction.. )
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casinterest
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:16 am

It's BS, Pure and simple, done by a bunch of amature idiots that rank right up there with the people that think we never went to the moon, and think the holocost didn't exist. That's me being levelheaded.

This has been discussed on numerous threads. There is a great seconds before the disster on Discovery on this. In other words, this is propoganda from a bunch of Amatures, that can put sound, pictures, and text bytes from people that briefly saw what happened.

This is just another IMAGINARY BS propaganda piece that only serves to tarnish the lives and memory of the REAL people that lost their lives in that incident on a day that killed thousands.
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travellin'man
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:26 am

CasInterest and Beaucaire,

I asked for people to restrain from either assertions of conspiracy or the categorical dismissals and the emotional hype of "dishonoring the memory" and the like.

Does this look like a crash site?

Just look at the pictures and ask yourself whether or not it looks as if a 757 hit the building.

I would be interested to know both sides of the argument, but I would like for the discussion to stick to a discussion of the images themselves. Please comment on that. If you think it looks like a plane when in there, say why. If it looks fishy, say why you think so. Let's keep it somewhat empirical.

Yes, this has been discussed before, but the threads always devolve into rhetorical grandstanding, which is why I bring it up again.
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ogre727
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:26 am

Cas,
Dont really understand why challening the official version tarnishes the lives and memory of the people who lost their lives there. Although I am probably as skeptical as yourself about this video, can´t say I agree with you there.
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casinterest
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:38 am

Because, only people with no clue and a bunch of pictures and catchy soundbite would challenge the facts of that day.

Who on that team went through all the rubble
Who on that team has a degree in physics?
Who on that team has a degree in material sciences?
Who on that team saw that 757 land elsewhere?

I could go on and on, but the video is made by idiots for idiots.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
MD80Nut
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:54 am

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 5):
I could go on and on, but the video is made by idiots for idiots.

I agree. That's the beauty of conspiracy theorists, you can never disprove their theory because it's a conspiracy. Besides, why let such mundane details as facts and proof get in the way of a good conspiracy?

People don't realize the Pentagon is a super re-enforced building, when that 757 hit it going hundreds of miles an hour it was like running into the proverbial brick wall. When I was in the Air Force I was part of a crash recovery team after one on our A-7Ds went into the ground nose first. There was nothing but small pieces of metal, fabric, plastic and flesh of the pilot. Nothing left one would recognize as being part of an airplane, let alone an A-7D.

The Pentagon Crash conspiracy thing is a favorite of the Bush Bashers, so don't expect it to go away any time soon.  banghead 

Cheers, Ralph
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Beaucaire
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:58 am

Better we close the thread....
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desertjets
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:01 am

A recent issue of Popular Mechanics, I believe last month's, went through the major conspiracy theories surround 9/11. It is worth picking up and taking a look at.

That said I wonder if those who doubt the Pentagon crash expected to see a 757 shaped gash in the Pentagon, or the plane more or less in tact on the ground. It just takes a basic understanding of physics and material science to know that relatively lightweight aluminum isn't going to hold up to well against reinforced concrete and limestone. That said a decent chunk of the outer ring of the Pentagon where the plane hit was destroyed, and surrounding areas pretty badly damaged.
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airfinair
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:03 am

Travellin'Man, you started the topic - What do you think? Do you think the video offers scientific proof that it was not a 757? What's the real purpose of the video? What questions do they raise that can't be answered? The video's "evidence" has been discussed many times before, and there is a reason it is no longer discussed.

For us to comment further, it would be helpful to have YOUR opinions on the matter, and your supply of further evidence either refuting or agreeing the claims of these conspiracy theorists. At that point we can either agree or disagree with what you have to offer as further evidence either way. Present an opinion, back it up with facts, and let the discussion commence from there.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that no one on this forum was at the Pentagon that day, or was involved in the subsequent investigation. So unless you can provide some other means of scientific evidence that this was or was not a 757, basing the thread soley on this video just turns this into another 9/11 conspiracy thread.
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travellin'man
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:23 am

Airfinair,

I am not so much interested in affirming or denying the video's argument, as I am in some of the data itself.

I am a photographer, not a physicist or aviation expert. Based on what I am seeing in visual terms I have questions. Until I have answers to those questions, I am willing to entertain all possibilities. I am a skeptic by nature, so perhaps I am prone to doubting most things. That having been said, I don't really know what to think about it. Because people on this site spend a lot of time around aviation, I thought they might have particular insight on the data. Scientific answers, not political diatribe, might in turn help me form judgment not about what I have been told, but about what I am seeing.

Here are my questions:

Does this look like a crash site?

Why are there no visible pieces of wings and engines, as in every other crash site picture I have ever seen?

MD80nut said that the building is so reinforced that the plane would pulverize on impact. Yet Pentagon photos show that the plane penetrated into one of the inner rings through at least 2 layers of buildings? Does this contradict what MD80nut says? Or is it the force of the explosion of the fuel that pushed forward into the building?

Is the "hole" in the building what one would expect from something the diameter of a 757 fuselage?

Is it physically possible for a plane to hit the building at that low an angle, given its speed? Anything is possible, of course, so how probable is it?

What do people think of the famous parking area camera footage? It doesn't look like a plane to me, but it's so fast and so low resolution, that it's hard to discern anything.
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doninfc
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:30 am

My coworker was stuck in traffic on Rt. 27 on the west side of the Pentagon. She watched the 757 with American titles, pass over her windshield just after it struck a light post that fell right in front of her car and landed on a Taxi headed in the opposite direction. She then watched the 757 crash into the Pentagon. When she was finally able to leave the scene, she had to drive around pieces of the wreckage.

There were many other witnesses that day. Give it a rest.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:32 am

I know that will sound stupid but there are claims that the video from the parking-lot is missing two picture sequences...
So if you really want the full sequence ,ask your elected representative of your juridiction in the house for access to the full video. You might get answers like "sorry- classified " - then when they have nothing to hide why classify documents related to the events...
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Lindy
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:33 am

I didn't see the crash because I was in downtown DC, but I've heard the colision. My sister lost a friend on that flight who was a teacher in elementary school here in Maryland.
I have many coworkers who lost their relatives in the Pentagon crash.
You people are sick. What else do you want???? Yes, that aircraft has crashed into Pentagon.
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nwcoflyer
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:35 am

What a bunch of shit. Well, if it wasn't the AA 757, where is the plane, and the people. Let's come up with a conspiracy that President Bush, that nazi, is keeping them up at ANWAR in Alaska. I won't even respond to this. There are many things off the top that can be refuted. Why dont you look at both sides of every issue before posting something like this.
 
clrd2go
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:38 am

If it's some conspiracy..what happened to the people on that airplane?


Jim
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FDXmech
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:40 am

>>>That said I wonder if those who doubt the Pentagon crash.........<<<

People who doubt the Pentagon crash aren't actually sincere in their doubts.
Simply put, they are "sh#tstirrers", looking to stir the pot and jerk your chain.

Either that or their head is so deeply embedded in their buttocks they need a special hearing device.

Don't waste your time.
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travellin'man
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:41 am

What I would like is for someone to answer the specific questions I raised generally in opening this post, and more specifically in my last post, nothing more, nothing less.

In my posting I asked people to consider the data calmly, and have only tried to do so in my successive posts, but sad to say, this is degenerating into the usual categorical rant. I wouldn't be surprised is this thread ends up being closed as a result, without my questions being answered.
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FDXmech
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:45 am

>>>I wouldn't be surprised is this thread ends up being closed as a result, without my questions being answered.<<<

Curiously, what's your question?

And what do you think happened?

[Edited 2005-03-11 17:47:19]
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OPNLguy
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:47 am

>>>Just look at the pictures and ask yourself whether or not it looks as if a 757 hit the building.

The reason that the Pentagon didn't look like the "typical" accident site was because of the very high speed the 757 was traveling at the time of impact, versus the speed of the "typical" approach/landing accident. Different aircraft have different speeds, so for the sake of simplicity, I'll use 150 kts. as an average. The 757 that hit the Pentagon was doing at least 3 times that (450 kts.) if not a little more, and the higher the speed, the more energy to be dissipated, and the greater the fragmentation and smaller (and fewer) the resultant pieces will be. Aviation folks easily understand this, unlike the conspiracy buffs who seem to think "a crash is a crash" when they come up with these wacko theories.

This subject has been beat to death on numerous occasions, while I'm not personally upset by it, there are those that are, and I too suggest that this thread be locked or deleted in respect to them.

If anyone still has an unsatisfied need to explore various "conspiracy" theories, all they need to do is a search for the past threads that contain that info. (Make sure you also search -archived- civil aviation.) There are plenty of them out there....


>>>I wouldn't be surprised is this thread ends up being closed as a result, without my questions being answered.

I say again, your question can be answered if you'll search for the past threads on the subject.

[Edited 2005-03-11 17:50:10]
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PHLBOS
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:52 am

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 8):
A recent issue of Popular Mechanics, I believe last month's, went through the major conspiracy theories surround 9/11. It is worth picking up and taking a look at.

There was a thread on this article a short while ago. Here's the link to the Popular Mechanics web-site. One of the photos actually shows part of the fuselage skin that clearly has American Airlines livery on it.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...ce/defense/1227842.html?page=1&c=y

I have the hard-copy of the magazine at home.
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Jalalabad
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:55 am

major consideration #1: the plane was travelling at cruising speed
major consideration #2: the pentagon is weighty structure

it isn't something that has been seen before. cruising speed is something like 300-400 mph faster than takeoff/landing speed, if i'm not mistaken.
 
MD80Nut
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:03 am

>>MD80nut said that the building is so reinforced that the plane would pulverize on impact.<<

Please go back and re-read my post, I said no such thing. What I said is that an impact like that is not likely to leave much that can be recognized as a plane. Having been part of crash recovery team picking small pieces of a human being I knew from equally small burnt and charred pieces of metal, plastic, soil, etc. I'm well aware of the destructive energy and forces unleashed when an airplane hits the ground at hundreds of miles an hour. The size and speed of the airplane crashing into the Pentagon meant the building would take some severe damage, but also that there wouldn't be much left of the airplane and people aboard recognizable as such.

Cheers, Ralph
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backfire
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:17 am

It's a clever piece of Flash animation but it lures you into believing things when there's no need.

It talks about the camera footage and the fact that it was taken by the FBI (trying to make it sound mysterious).

But that's exactly what would have happened in an investigation - I'd find it more strange if the FBI hadn't taken the footage. Amazing how stating a simple fact in a conspiratorial whisper can make you see things that aren't there...

As for the rest of it - it conveniently quotes eyewitnesses who didn't see the 757 and misses out those who did. Including the guy who not only identified the aircraft but also the airline as it flew over his head.
 
contrails
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:37 am

What is there to reconsider? An AA 757 hit the Pentagon. Enough is enough.
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777DadandJr
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:42 am

Quoting Doninfc (Reply 11):
There were many other witnesses that day. Give it a rest.

Well said.
I have a friend who's office is on Columbia Pike, just down from the Pentagon. He watched the plane fly past his 4th floor window, replete in AA livery, and into the Pentagon.

To repeat what has been clearly stated:

Quoting Lindy (Reply 13):
What else do you want???? Yes, that aircraft has crashed into Pentagon.

Time to accept it. The world already has too many whackjobs, let's not harvest more of them here as well.

Peace, Russ
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airfinair
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:52 am

Travellin'Man - You said, "I am not so much interested in affirming or denying the video's argument, as I am in some of the data itself." What data are you in? Did you participate in the making of the video?

If yes, then perhaps it was your way of asking a question on the legitimacy of the government's evidence. But why not go one step further and investigate further? Provide more data. Why leave it up to us to prove it? And is it responsible to create a theory and continue to postulate that the events of that day happened differently without backing it up?

If you didn't participate in the making of the video, you're just providing airplay for a very propagandist conspiracy theory and asking questions that have already been answered. Nothing more.

Yes, there are people in this forum who have the scientific knowledge to answer your questions. And people with first or second hand knowledge of the events have given their accounts. In my opinion, given my limited scientific knowledge on ballistics, my knowledge of aviation, 757's, jet fuel, security camera that takes pictures every two to three seconds, the disappearance of an AA 757, the disappearance of her crew and passengers, and MY skepticism of the conspiracy theory, I believe a 757 crashed into the Pentagon. Now prove me wrong.

Until I have PROOF the other way, it is what it is. A tragic event carried out by cowards, morons, and psychopaths that is, to this day, a very emotional thing for me. How can it not be? Its almost impossible to separate emotion from "science" on this one. Its inhuman. I told myself that day and every day since, I WILL NEVER FORGET. I hope no one else does either.
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dl757md
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:14 am

Why are there no visible pieces of wings and engines, as in every other crash site picture I have ever seen?

Have you seen the video of the two planes(767-200 which is much larger than a 757-200) that struck the WTC...a much less robust building? I did and I didn't see any wings or large pieces from those crashes. Must be that it too was a conspiracy and didn't really happen as our government and the media that they control have been pulling the wool over our eyes on the WTC crashes as well. If that isn't enough for you then look at some pictures of flight UAL 585 in COS or USAir 427 in PIT. Nothing in those pictures that looks like an airplane to me. Get a grip. There's a big difference between healthy skepticism and paranoia. If with the overwhelming evidence of this crash you still think the government made all of this up, you must feel very unsafe everyday of your life.
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aloha73g
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:22 am

Read the Popular Mechanics link. They are a legitimate source of information, unlike the amatuer conspiacy sites that make this a regular topic of conversation.

Aloha!
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Boeing7E7
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 am

Quoting Jalalabad (Reply 21):
major consideration #1: the plane was travelling at cruising speed
major consideration #2: the pentagon is weighty structure

Major consideration #3: It's a slow speed camera.

The issue has been discussed many times.
Even if someone would find any tangible proof that things did not happen as FBI and CIA / LIRA), Italy">CIA / LIRA), Italy">CIA / LIRA), Italy">CIA explain it happened,hundreds of experts would proof the contrary.
So the issue is closed for the official America.
Anybody who dares putting the slightest doubts in the offical version is tied to conspiracy circles and classified as maniac.
In CIA / LIRA), Italy">CIA / LIRA), Italy">CIA / LIRA), Italy">CIA we trust..... ( they were the ones who explained that Iraq had weapons of mass- destruction.. )


Sounds to me like you buy into this load of crap. Sucker.

I asked for people to restrain from either assertions of conspiracy or the categorical dismissals and the emotional hype of "dishonoring the memory" and the like.

Does this look like a crash site?

Just look at the pictures and ask yourself whether or not it looks as if a 757 hit the building.

I would be interested to know both sides of the argument, but I would like for the discussion to stick to a discussion of the images themselves. Please comment on that. If you think it looks like a plane when in there, say why. If it looks fishy, say why you think so. Let's keep it somewhat empirical.

Yes, this has been discussed before, but the threads always devolve into rhetorical grandstanding, which is why I bring it up again.


Yes. It does look like a crash site, ironically from a 757.

So if you really want the full sequence ,ask your elected representative of your juridiction in the house for access to the full video. You might get answers like "sorry- classified " - then when they have nothing to hide why classify documents related to the events...

Or perhaps that the shutter speed is insufficient to have captured anything. Five shots are the full sequence. There are no 60 frame per second security cameras, which is what you would have needed to catch it all. I suppose all Jews had the day off to in your mind.

[Edited 2005-03-11 20:03:19]
 
AADC10
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:58 am

I think many people could be forgiven for thinking that the attacks were part of a government conspiracy simply by the ruthless way the administration has exploited the attacks for their own gain. Moreover, there has been a historical pattern of totalitarianism following invasions, attacks or terrorism.

There is not, nor will there probably ever be conclusive evidence that attacks we instigated by the administration, Texas money interests, the military industrial complex, Cuban dissidents or any of the other usual suspects.

This however, does not mean that it is impossible. There are scenarios that fit the limited evidence available, although they are unlikely, they are possible.

The 911 Commission Report says that the FAA lost track of the flight when they turned off their transponder and did not spot it again until shortly before it hit the Pentagon and even then they could only identify it because it was moving fast and disappeared after the strike. Many things could have happened in between.

Some skepticism of any event is healthy. If the light of day is kept on it long enough, there is an outside possibility that a different truth could emerge. Nobody buys the original administration story about the Watergate break in now, but many thought it unimportant when it happened. The Gulf of Tonkin incident, which led to the major escalation of the Vietnam War turned out to have no confirmed enemy contact and the U.S. had secretly been conducting illegal bombings for months previously, which were being directed from Destroyers in the Gulf, making the ship a legitimate military target.

[Edited 2005-03-11 20:13:24]
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:00 am

many thanks for the sucker - a great reply - arguments are becomming classier by the time !
The right for free speech ,thoughts and controversal arguments has not been removed -to my knowledge - from this forum.A little bit more courtesy would not do harm....
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travellin'man
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:04 am

Thanks to Doninfc for the relay of a testimony and to OPNLguy and PHLBOS for providing scientific data in answer to my questions. Let me ask this in response. How fast was debris falling from for example the Lockerbie explosion, from which (I seem to think) visible chunks remained? I can't remember the formula for the speed that an object accumulates as it falls. By the waythe reason I did not research prior threads is that, as I have said, they have all degenerated into ranting, and I found it hard to wade through them.

Airfinair et al.- I have no axe to grind. I had questions based on certain images I saw in the video. We have images of the planes going into the WTC, but not the Pentagon; there there are only traces. To raise questions is simply to do that, to ask for answers. I was not asking anyone who believes or knows that the plane crashed to prove themselves right.

Furthermore why do you think that an internal conspiracy mocks the memories of those who died? If proof came out tomorrow that JFK was killed by someone other than Oswald, that it was organized by more than one person, would that diminish the tragedy? Or would it actually heighten it? I, for one, were I to find out tomorrow that the government knew of this event and let it happen to further their own goals, or worse yet, did it themselves, would feel that the tragedy was millionfold worse.

Dlmd757

Point taken that not all crashes leave debris, although I seem to remember that pictures were shown from the WTC with pieces of the airliners.

Again I wanted answers to the questions I raised from people able to decipher images based on their aviation expertise. I got a lot of them. Thanks!
It is not enough to be rude; one must also be incorrect.
 
airfinair
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:05 am

PHLBOS & Aloha73G - Thanks for the PM link and the re-link (is that a word?) Good article. It speaks for itself.

Travellin'Man - have you read the article? What do you think of it? Did it answer your questions?

Now I pose this question - Is there any reason to post more threads on Airliners in regards to 9/11 conspiricy theories? I think not. As OPNLguy says, all your questions can be answered if you'll search for the past threads on the subject.
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Boeing7E7
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RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:08 am

many thanks for the sucker - a great reply - arguments are becomming classier by the time !
The right for free speech ,thoughts and controversal arguments has not been removed -to my knowledge - from this forum.A little bit more courtesy would not do harm....


If you're willing to beleive even a sliver this, then I have ocean front property to sell you in Nebraska. What's your offer?

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 30):
I think many people could be forgiven for thinking that the attacks were part of a government conspiracy simply by the ruthless way the administration has exploited the attacks for their own gain. Moreover, there has been a historical pattern of totalitarianism following invasions, attacks or terrorism

What a load of crap. Besides, these conspiracies began about 2 weeks after the events of 9/11, long before we started resolving the terrorist question.

Furthermore why do you think that an internal conspiracy mocks the memories of those who died? If proof came out tomorrow that JFK was killed by someone other than Oswald, that it was organized by more than one person, would that diminish the tragedy? Or would it actually heighten it? I, for one, were I to find out tomorrow that the government knew of this event and let it happen to further their own goals, or worse yet, did it themselves, would feel that the tragedy was millionfold worse.

The entire baby boom generation is just loaded with conspiracy after conspiracy. The same people who dropped more acid than any generation in history. That ought to tell you something. Just stop. It's getting old.

[Edited 2005-03-11 20:12:52]
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:11 am

Duplicate...




[Edited 2005-03-11 20:13:22]
 
mikephotos
Posts: 2888
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:52 am

RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:12 am

Does this look like a crash site?

Yes it does. Not sure why people (whackos) expect 50 city blocks to be destroyed and in flames when a plane hits the ground. I was at the AA587 crash site. That was an A300 and it's damage area was centralized. One house was up in flames while others near/next to it were hardly damaged. While not exactly the same angle of impact, it's a similar type event. It's amazing (in a sad way not cool-amazing) how a plane disintegrates upon impact at a high rate of speed.

Mike
 
jc2354
Posts: 609
Joined: Sat May 01, 2004 9:56 am

RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:26 am

Some people still think that TWA 800 was brought down by a missile. Some people still think Kennedy was killed by Castro. Some people still think there are alien space ships at Roswell and Area 51. Some people still think that Air France never washes their airplanes. The US Government promised and assured us there were WMD in Iraq.

This is a discussion forum. If you can't constructively contribute to the discussion, then don't. You don't have to read the thread. Why waste your time, and the time of readers who are interested in the thread, with comments such as:

"Do a search"
"Better we close the thread...."

Just because something is proven and fact, does not mean that we shouldn't explore and discuss all other possibilities. Otherwise, it would be a very boring place to live. Who was it that said, "I may not like or approve of what you have to say, but I will defend your right to say it".

Travellin'Man has a good question, statement. I would be interested in the answers myself. I challenge all a.netters posting to this thread, and ALL threads, to contribute, not criticize.
If not now, then when?
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1871
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:43 am

So assuming for a moment that it was not a plane that crashed into the Pentagon

1. Why did the officials choose that particular flight to claim that it was? Surely there must have been better choices

2. what has happened to it?

3. Was it then shot down by air force jets?

4. forced to land and now everyone on board have been killed by our government or are being kept in a secret base- hmmmm Area 51 perhaps?

5. perhaps the plane was disintegrated by a beam from the galaxy class starship from the planet Theta

6. Perhaps they were all just beamed elsewhere.

7. Could the Bermuda Triangle have suddenly relocated?
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:45 am

Thank you wise man JC for your input. Here's your answer...

On September 11, 2001 America was attacked by terrorist pigs using aircraft. As a result, we have systematically gone about kicking them off the planet and will not stop until we're done. For some reason, there are whack jobs who think that everything in the world is a conspiracy. They ask questions to cause controversy over the obvious. It's a game to them. They do it to irritate the masses and make a mockery of death for their own personal gain and to satisfy their dying need for attention. Anymore questions before you manage to piss off any more of the A.net member (or anyone else on this planet) who lost family members or friends on September 11th or do you prefer to continue to make a mockery of the situation? The rest of the world is capable of grasping the obvious on this issue, why can't you?

[Edited 2005-03-11 20:47:03]
 
Boeing Nut
Posts: 5078
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 2:42 am

RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:00 am

It's nothing but absolute tripe and I can't believe educated people actually think that this could be even a remote possibility. It's spitting on the memories of everyone killed that day at the Pentagon.

I for one will no longer respond to these "conspiracy theories" anymore. I just gets my dander up too fuckin' much.  mad 
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:08 am

Not this stupid bullshit again.

Tell that to my friend Sergeant Major Lacey Ivory - may he rest in peace - they never found his body by the way, he was at point of impact. Let's call my friend Becky who was on I-395N exiting at the Pentagon City exit and watched the impact . . . horrified.

What a bunch of crap. How many times are going to go over and over and over and ver this stupid subject????

Travellin'man: I asked for people to restrain from either assertions of conspiracy or the categorical dismissals and the emotional hype of "dishonoring the memory" and the like.

And you actually thought it would go that way? Ha Ha Ha . . . .

Quoting Jc2354 (Reply 37):
Just because something is proven and fact, does not mean that we shouldn't explore and discuss all other possibilities.

Ok JC - let me give it to you in plain non-vulcan english. It's a proven fact, it's not a theory, it's not someones guesswork, it's proven. A B757 hit the 5 sided funny farm. People SAW / LTFJ), Turkey">SAW it.

Want to host a discussion, pick something that is theory, or has some reason to be discussed.

Unbelieveable.

[Edited 2005-03-11 21:16:35]
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Hardkor
Posts: 227
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2001 1:51 pm

RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:08 am

I think for a cover-up of that magnitude to occur, it would require a high level of coordination between departments and bureaucracies, with hundreds of people involved. Yet not one person of any credibility has ever come out to say the Pentagon was a cover-up. I just find it hard to believe that a cover-up at the Pentagon actually occurred. It just doesn't seem realistic
Hardkor
 
Piedmontbrat
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:14 am

RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:55 am

I've read the posts on this thread and find one idea very disturbing.

Relative to any perceived disrespect of those who lost their lives as a result of the tragedy that occurred on 9/11...it would be an even greater tragedy and show greater disrespect to those who died if we didn't question all of the evidence. To blindly accept everything one hears or is allowed to hear or see makes us nothing more that robots programmed to accept everything and challenge nothing. Our government officials are, after all, just as human as anyone else and certainly subject to errors as the rest of us. Asking questions harms nothing but in fact makes us sharper. Certainly the supreme sacrifice made by those on 9/11 warrants intense investigation and questions. To do less would indeed be the supreme disrespect to those who died.

IMHO, 11 September 2001 is probably our worst day since 7 December 1941. The difference then was that we knew where and who our enemy was. Today, I'm not sure we know who our enemy is or where to look for them.
 
backfire
Posts: 3467
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:01 am

RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:25 am

I just find it hard to believe that a cover-up at the Pentagon actually occurred.


America couldn't possibly organise a cover up on that scale.

For heaven's sake it couldn't even cover up the fact that its last President got blown by an intern.
 
bennett123
Posts: 10712
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:58 am

I do not have any special expertise here, but some points do not make sense;

1. The amount of damage done, (three rings were penetrated).

2. The apparent lack of aircraft wreckage, (particularly engines and tails, which seem to survive most crashes).

3. The fact that the hole seems to be completely round, (I would have expected the wings/tail to cause some damage).

4. The fact that the impact was so low, with no sign that the plane hit the ground first. However having flown an airline simulator, it is not as hard as it sounds, particularly if you do not have to land.

Equally, if we accept that this was NOT done by an AAB757, they we raise the following questions;

1. What happened to the AA B757.

2. How many people would have to be involved.

3. How was it co-ordinated with the WTC.
 
jc2354
Posts: 609
Joined: Sat May 01, 2004 9:56 am

RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:17 am

AncFlyer,

I hope my good friend, Thomas McGuinness, has had the good luck to share a bench in heaven with your good friend, Sergeant Major Lacey Ivory. Tom was co-pilot on AA 11 that day. Many times during the day, I hope and pray that his horrible death was quick and painless. My heart goes out to him, his family, and his other friends.

Nowhere in my reply (#37), did I show or exhibit any disrespect to the victims or the families. Nowhere in my reply did I suggest a theory. As a matter of fact, I supported the official findings of the 9-11 commission ("Just because something is proven and fact, does not mean that we shouldn't explore and discuss all other possibilities."). However, I owe it to myself, the victims, the families to be open to all possibilities, to ask questions.

Piedmontbrat said it best, " ...it would be an even greater tragedy and show greater disrespect to those who died if we didn't question all of the evidence."

I can only hope that I will not be disrespectful and rude to others in them voicing their opinions, as you were in your opinions towards me.

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 40):
Quoting Jc2354 (Reply 37):
Just because something is proven and fact, does not mean that we shouldn't explore and discuss all other possibilities.

Ok JC - let me give it to you in plain non-vulcan english. It's a proven fact, it's not a theory, it's not someones guesswork, it's proven. A B757 hit the 5 sided funny farm. People SAW / LTFJ), Turkey">SAW it.

Want to host a discussion, pick something that is theory, or has some reason to be discussed.

Unbelieveable.
If not now, then when?
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:23 am

>>>Not this stupid bullshit again.

Maybe if enough folks suggest to the mods that it be locked....
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:24 am

Since our European friends seem to be more in favor of this idiocy, here's a theory to chew on...

France and Germany have quietly been making deals with OPEC nations to convert their financial reserves and oil trading currency to the Euro, all at once to bolster the strength of the Euro. The only way for such a plan to work was to cripple the US economy in a way to devalue the dollar and at the same time change public opinion my causing the US to face off with Arab nations. So they gamble. The hire Al Queda to do their dirty work for them, only the plan doesn't fully work. They only get two of several targets they intend across the US and blame is only placed on a small group of extremists. Unknown to Europe, the US finds out but in the name of not starting WWIII they call Germany and France and tell them they know what they did, but will gladly place blame on Al Queda to save face. France and Germany, obviously pissed chose to not support the US in it's war against the middle east terrorism, causing much useless distain between the US and European people. The Euro takes off like a rocket anyway for a short period of time, but their plan to have most of the worlds bartering done in the Euro fails. The US economy slows, but is not crippled. Over time, the Euro collapses as does the European economy and the Dollar and the American Economy regains it's strength.

I mean, it's just as crazy and plausible as the US trying to cripple it's own economy, something that would be rather foolish don't you think? No Airbus aircraft were used and the only currency in the world to have increased in valuse since 9/11 has been the Euro. I mean, it's just a theory. It doesn't hurt anyone.

[Edited 2005-03-12 00:30:14]
 
bennett123
Posts: 10712
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Reconsidering The 9/11 Pentagon Crash

Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:43 am

Boeing 7E7

Did you ever see fahrenheit 9/11.

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