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Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:12 am

There is, due to VIE's east-west location, an awful lot of flights to Eastern Europe from VIE. Is most of this traffic O&D? Are there any cities in Eastern Europe which do not have a non-stop link to VIE but which, in your opinion, should?

[Edited 2005-03-14 02:24:03]
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:50 am

What about the following for potential new destinations?

Lodz - Poland's second-largest city. Might be too close to WAW.
Wroclaw - Poland's third-largest city

What about Novi Sad in Serbia Montenegro (might be too close to BEG) and Rijeka in Croatia?

What about Tallinn in Estonia?

Apologies if these destinations are already served. If they are, please tell me the frequency and aircraft type.

I am not too sure on any of these, so remember that these are just SUGGESTIONS.

[Edited 2005-03-14 03:02:54]
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amhilde
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Mon Mar 14, 2005 1:35 pm

I cant believe Tallin wouldnt be served direct out of VIE- its become such the "new hip place" as of late. VIE is a massive airport for Eastern Europe flights- I remember having to wait in the little "holding tanks" almost on the tarmac waiting for my flight to VNO. Kinda nifty- all sorts of flights going to "strange" places like Bucharest and the like that you would never see service to from the US  Smile. I flew on Austrian LHR-VIE-VNO if that helps at all.

Sorry, i dont think this post helped much!  Smile
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JoFMO
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Mon Mar 14, 2005 1:53 pm

I see the following growth options (especially for OS):

Tallinn, Wroclaw, Katowice, Ostrava, Debrecen, Pecs, Szeged, Rijeka, Zadar, Mostar, Nis, Ohrid, Iasi, bacau, Sibiu, Brasov, Craiova, Galati, Plovdiv, Simferopol, Sewastopol.
 
Thomas_Jaeger
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:59 pm

Austrian already served Tallinn earlier using ERJ-145s but they have given it up again. They have a weekly codeshare flight with MAT to Ohrid.

They are currently trying to get Tarom to reroute their codeshare flight between Vienna and Cluj to stop in Sibiu as Austrian does not get the traffic rights to serve any other Romanian cities but Timisoara and Bucharest but Tarom does not want to. Austrian is putting a lot of pressure on Tarom to get this done, they have loaded the schedules and announced it although Tarom has yet to agree. Kind of a strange situation where the codesharing carrier loads his own schedule he wants the operating carrier to adopt  Smile.
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traveler_7
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:11 pm

Yes Tallinn was served by Austrian. First it was Lauda's CRJ and later Rheintalflug's ERJ. I was once on this flight and it was aprox 60% full so I can't understand why they drop the line.
 
cornish
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:49 pm

Quoting [email protected] (Thread starter):
Is most of this traffic O&D?

OS gets a lot of connecting traffic through VIE to its east european points.

Broadly I agree with most of the destinations served.

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 1):
What about Novi Sad in Serbia Montenegro (might be too close to BEG) and Rijeka in Croatia?

Actually Novi Sad is an ethnically Hungarian city - many people actually travel to Budapest to fly despite the distance, rather than south to Belgrade. If as somebody suggested Szeged was served, then passengers from Novi Sad would probably head there.

For O&D rather than connecting traffic, Hungary would only be a niche market. Western Hungary is an easy drive or train ride from VIE, the upgrade of the line between Budapest and Vienna, with ridiculously cheap fares and a good modern relaible clean service means that for non-connecting traffic the train is the better option now. Eastern Hungary - Debrecen, Szeged etc, may offer more posiblilites, but the business market in these cities is small, and the population is far less wealthy than Western Hungary - meaning price is the overriding factor, and therefore the train or a long drive may be more attractive to most local people.

Debrecen, serving Miskolc too, might be an option, but I can't see it for Szeged or Pecs to be honest - also they need to sort out a proper airport for thses cities first !

From Romania, though the train journey through Hungary is very long, and so there are definitely more possibilities.

I would have thought Gdansk would have been a potential destination too.

And yes I'm very surprised they don't serve tallinn either.
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:50 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 6):
OS gets a lot of connecting traffic through VIE to its east european points.

But surely there would also be a lot of O&D traffic?

O2 and others charge very high/extremely high fares from VIE to pretty much anywhere in Eastern Europe - despite the often relatively short flight times - such as:

Kiev, with a block time of 2 hour - 437.33 EUR/£305.40;
Sofia, with a block time of 1 hour 35 minutes - 438.17 EUR/£306;
Bucharest, with a block time of 1 hour 40 minutes - 518.99 EUR/£362.43;
Sarajevo, with a block time of 1 hour 10 minutes - 404.17 EUR/£282.27;
Split, with a block time of 1 hour - 360.17 EUR/£251.54
Ljubljana, with a block time of 55 minutes - 315.85 EUR/£220.63

Some cheaper flights do exist, but not reduced by much. Fares generally increase closer to departure, so Kiev, based on leaving on 21st March and returning 28th March, is 657.33 EUR/£459.17; Bucharest, based on same dates, is 618.99 EUR/£432.89; and, again..., Split is 360.17 EUR/£251.60.

One-way fares are also extremely expensive - very close to, or more than, the return prices.

(The prices stated above tax and are based on outbound travel on 21st May and return on 28th May for NON-STOP flights. They were obtained from Aua.com. The day of travel does not seem to matter that much.)

It's great for the airlines if they can charge such prices, but not, of course, for the consumer.

Thanks for your list of other potential destinations - there certainly seems like many additional opportunities.  Smile Do many Austrians holiday in Varna or Bourgas?

There is a weekly service, op. by the AT4, from VIE to Zadar (ZAD).
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cornish
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:58 pm

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 7):
But surely there would also be a lot of O&D traffic?

Sorry P my wording wasn't clear - there is a fair amount of connecting traffic, in additoon to the O&D market. But a lot of non business O&D to Vienna from the closer countries certainly goes by train or car. BUD traffic for example I would say is primarily connecting, as VIE has much better links to other parts of the world than BUD.

Incidentally you mention the high OS fares out of VIE. Interestingly when I lived in Western hungary for two years some years ago, it was usually far cheaper to fly to/from London out of VIE than it was out of BUD. It was also quicker to get to, which is why for many Western Hungarians, VIE is more of a local airport than Budapest due to its proximity to the border (also the case with Slovakia too).

It will be interesting to see if OS develop Bratislava and Slovak airlines to cater for some of the lower yield non-business O&D traffic.
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:03 pm

Thanks, Pasty! 'Tis interesting.

So do you think Austrians from the VIE area would travel overland to places like LJU, ZAG and PRG, as opposed to flying? And the same for people of those areas?

[Edited 2005-03-14 12:05:39]
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cornish
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:23 pm

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 9):
So do you think Austrians from the VIE area would travel overland to places like LJU, ZAG and PRG, as opposed to flying? And the same for people of those areas?

The Austrians would be the more likely to fly to those destinations - the Czechs, Slovenes, Croatians etc would be more likely to drive or train it. also for the likes of Ljubljana then Graz or Trieste is an option too if they want to fly elsewhere. I'd be interested to know how many slovenes for example use the FR flights out of Treviso, Graz or Klagenfurt.

Do remember that a lot of austrians and Germans have property in touristy areas of Eastern europe, particularly around Lake Balaton and also on the Black sea and Adriatic coasts - they tend to drive to these paces and spend a few weeks or a month ther ein the summeer, so the practicalities of having a car once there outweigh the convenience of flying to/from in some cases.
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cornish
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:29 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 10):
I'd be interested to know how many slovenes for example use the FR flights out of Treviso,

sorry - meant Trieste rather than Treviso. Its right on the Slovene border.
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:01 pm

Do many Austrians holiday in Varna or Bourgas?

[Edited 2005-03-14 13:03:03]
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cornish
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:09 pm

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 12):
Do many Austrians holiday in Varna or Bourgas?

Unsure about how many (bulgaria is probably my weakest E.Euro area!) those resorts were certainly popular with east europeans from further north in the past, pre-89, as they were the only beach resorts (along with Lake Balaton) that they could really go to. Now they are all heading off to Greece and Italy, so I don't know what effect this has had. Certainly Austrians and Germans in particular took advantage of buying up cheap property in east Euro holiday areas post 89 so I guess there could possibly be a fair number of Austrians heading there
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:24 pm

Thanks, Cornish.

In terms of coastal destinations in Croatia, I presume that Pula, Rijeka and Zadar (the latter is, I believe, served weekly) would be suitable. (I have intentionally left out Split and Dubrovnik, as they are regularly served already.) While we are certainly not talking about daily frequencies to those three destinations, do you think a thrice-weekly frequency to each would be OK and not lead to an excess of supply? I am not sure. It's necessary, I think, to offer an attractive, workable frequency without having too much capacity or too little.

[Edited 2005-03-14 13:26:44]
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cornish
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:31 pm

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 14):
In terms of coastal destinations in Croatia, I presume that Pula, Rijeka and Zadar (the latter is, I believe, served weekly) would be suitable. (I have intentionally left out Split and Dubrovnik, as they are regularly served already.) While we are certainly not talking about daily frequencies to those three destinations, do you think a thrice-weekly frequency to each would be OK and not lead to an excess of supply?

I definitely think that is do-able. The Croatian coast is simply stunning and is THE hot destination at the moment for savvy property buyers, and also celebs. More than anywhere else in the region I think it has the potential for higher yield tourist flights and full service ops from VIE with connections onward could definitely work I would have thought. The bulk of traffic would be going to Split and Dubrovnik of course, but there is definitely the scope to the other destinations and I think the demand would continue to increase significantly over time.
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:35 pm

Yeah.

We would not, of course, be talking about big planes, but rather smaller ones, like the DH3 or DH4, so the thrice-weekly frequency to Pula, Zadar and Rijeka might indeed be OK.
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:41 pm

Is this thread about really VIE or is it a just a prelude only for [email protected] to promote FR again???

Quoting Cornish (Reply 13):
as they were the only beach resorts (along with Lake Balaton) that they could really go to. Now they are all heading off to Greece and Italy, so I don't know what effect this has had.

Not true. Croatia (then Yugoslavia) has always been top holiday destination. Even throughout the immediate post-war years. It's good to see that the rest of Europe finally discovered Croatia's assets... although it took almost a decade for the news of war being over to reach them.
 
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:44 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 17):
Is this thread about really VIE or is it a just a prelude only for [email protected] to promote FR again???

Yeah, FR is likely to fly from EXPENSIVE VIE and use the DH3/4.  Wink
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Thomas_Jaeger
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:44 pm

From what I heard, more than 60% of SkyEurope passengers between Bratislava and Dubrovnik, Split and Zadar are Austrian. Split is served five times weekly with a B737-500 during the high season!
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:54 pm

Interesting, Tom (mind if I call you Tom?). Any idea how many Austrians fly the Bratislavia-Kosice and Bratislavia-Warsaw routes?
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Thomas_Jaeger
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:05 pm

No idea, but I would guess this is more local demand.

PS: Most people call me Tom anyway, so this is perfectly fine.
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cornish
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:42 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 17):
Not true. Croatia (then Yugoslavia) has always been top holiday destination. Even throughout the immediate post-war years.

Interesting. I was sure that for citizens of some of the Eastern Euro countries, former Yugoslavia was also off limits too I'm sure this was the case for East Germans).

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 20):
Any idea how many Austrians fly the Bratislavia-Kosice

I would guess this would mainly be Slovak traffic as it is a v.long journey by car or train between thre country's tow main cities. Austrians would be more likely to use a service from VIE I would expect.
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:14 pm

A few more destinations in Romania would be a good idea. However, not as many as JoFMO has suggested. Iasi and Bacau for example a too close to have two separate flights from Vienna. There are also cities in Hungary which are too close to Vienna (around 100 miles) and flights from those cities would not have good loads. Hungary is not too big of a country and that is why Budapest is used as a national departure point.
 
alespesl
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:07 am

[email protected]:

The flights from KSC to VIE and back and doing not so well. There are usually only about 20 passengers on board in each direction which is not enough.
 
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:16 am

Quoting Alespesl (Reply 24):
The flights from KSC to VIE and back and doing not so well. There are usually only about 20 passengers on board in each direction which is not enough.

But the fares, which are normally high or extremely high, MIGHT make up for the lack of passengers. Indeed, if I wanted to go VIE-KSC on Wednesday and return on Thursday it would cost me 513.20 EUR/£358.41. The cheapest fare I can find is for dates further in the future is 172.20 EUR/£120.28. High/extremely high fares, especially for such a short flight - it has a block time of between 1 hour and 1 hour 10 minutes on the DH3. The DH3 only seats 50 people.
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alespesl
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:43 am

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 25):
But the fares, which are normally high or extremely high, MIGHT make up for the lack of passengers. Indeed, if I wanted to go VIE-KSC on Wednesday and return on Thursday it would cost me 513.20 EUR/?58.41. The cheapest fare I can find is for dates further in the future is 172.20 EUR/?20.28. High/extremely high fares, especially for such a short flight - it has a block time of between 1 hour and 1 hour 10 minutes on the DH3. The DH3 only seats 50 people.

Why dont you fly lets say from LHR or other city in Europe and connect in VIE to KSC and and your ticket might be much cheaper and just buying a ticket for VIE-KSC route.

You can also try CSA Czech Airlines, they fly to KSC from PRG.
 
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:03 am

BTW, I don't need to go to KSC, so don't know why we're talking about it. Let's talk about... beer!  Smile
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cornish
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:11 am

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 27):
BTW, I don't need to go to KSC, so don't know why we're talking about it.

Trust me, you really DON'T need to go to Kosice [email protected]  Wink
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:13 am

Quoting Cornish (Reply 28):
Trust me, you really DON'T need to go to Kosice [email protected]

Is cheap prostitutes and beer insufficient?  Big grin Haha.
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:17 am

Actually if you are into steelworks in a big way, Kosice has one of Europe's largest - well at least it did until most of it blew up !!!!

Definitely cheap prossies though on the road to Ukraine !!!
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:52 pm

"Actually Novi Sad is an ethnically Hungarian city - many people actually travel to Budapest to fly despite the distance, rather than south to Belgrade. If as somebody suggested Szeged was served, then passengers from Novi Sad would probably head there."


Could you please tell me where you base this opinion from?

I applaud your interest in Serbia, however, it is important to get your facts straight next time.
 
cornish
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:55 pm

Quoting JU101 (Reply 31):
Actually Novi Sad is an ethnically Hungarian city - many people actually travel to Budapest to fly despite the distance, rather than south to Belgrade. If as somebody suggested Szeged was served, then passengers from Novi Sad would probably head there."


Could you please tell me where you base this opinion from?

I applaud your interest in Serbia, however, it is important to get your facts straight next time.

I'm guessing you're of Serbian descent JU101 from your username, so what I'm saying here is much for anyone reading rather than yourself as much of this you will already know of course  Smile

Novi Sad is in the northern part of Serbia, in what is called Vojvodina. This was part of Austria-Hungary until after the end of the first war when it became part of the new Yugoslavia. Ethnically the popualtion is mainly made up of Hungarians (as is common in many of the countries in that part of the world).

Traditionally, and particularly during the problems in Yugoslavia - a lot of people from the region came to work or study in Hungary - this is I know as I worked and knew many of them during my time working in Hungary. Also during this time, due to the isolation of Serbia, many people in the north of the country would make the trip to Budapest for international connections as they could not fly from Belgrade.

Since then, that trend has continuee, albeit to a slightly lesser extent - partly due to the fact that there are more options from BUD than BEG and also it is generally cheaper due to more competition there.

I work as a aviation consultant - my clients being airlines and airports primarily. I know Budapest airport and the people there well, and I am familiar with their customer base/profile, many of whom come from the countries to the east, south and also north too.

It was not a dig at Serbia or Belgrade, but in Eastern europe it is a fact that people will travel a significant distance by road or rail to make air connections if it is attractive enough for them to do so. Perhaps if Serbia can sort out JAT or start a new carrier, or if low cost operations take hold in serbia the situation might be different, as it make far more sense for those people to travel the relatively short distance to Belgrade.

So I hope that answers your question. It wasn't just an opinion  Smile
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:20 am

Cornish, the facts are that the Serbian population constitutes the majority of the population in the northern province of Vojvodina. In the last census, Serbian Hungarians numbered about 340,000 out of 2,014,000 inhabitants. Nevertheless I do not see how these statistics are aviation related.

Irrelevant of any ethnic pretense, during the flight embargo on Serbia and Montenegro, most travelers drove to Budapest, in Hungary. People from Southeastern Serbia primarily went through Sofia, while others went to Skopje. Since the resumption of international service, people from the northern cities of Sombor, Subotica and Senta are likely to continue flying through Budapest because of convenience, while the absolute majority of travellers from the republic prefer Belgrade (Novi Sad included).

It is true that flights from most West European destinations to Budapest are a lot cheaper in comparison to Belgrade, as Serbia is restrictive to competition, particularly to low cost carriers. It's a shame, but this will change with the gradual integration of Serbia and Montenegro in the EU. Meanwhile, other than its transatlantic service, Budapest does not offer many more options than Belgrade. At last count, the winter service to Belgrade encompassed at least 40 regular destinations throughout Europe, Northern Africa, and the Middle East.

After all is said and done, I am glad to see the great transition that has taken place in Budapest. BUD looks fantastic, and it has certainly set a good standard for cities in Southeast European to follow.
 
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:47 am

Quoting Cornish (Reply 32):
in Eastern europe it is a fact that people will travel a significant distance by road or rail to make air connections if it is attractive enough for them to do so.

Can you imagine how successful, in theory, a no-frills, low-cost airline, with its main base in VIE, would be, when it would operate, say, the AT7 or DH4 and concentrate on Eastern Europe?

Assuming it is possible to obtain permission to commence routes and obtain workable slots and so forth, there would be enormous potential - probably over 40 routes from VIE to places in Eastern Europe.

The smaller aircraft would result in higher frequencies and so greater usefulness and appeal.

The frequency between the bigger cities, like LJU, WAW, PRG, BUH, SOF, BEG, IEV, etc., would probably warrant thrice-daily service, but with perhaps a twice-daily frequency to begin with.

KRK could support a twice-daily service.

Smaller, but still significant, cities, like TIA, CJJ, SKP, SPU, DBV, PRN, WRO, KTW, RIX, VNO, MSQ, etc, etc., etc, could be served once-daily.

Then there's an awful lot of routes which could support anything from a five-times-weekly to a twice-weekly service.

All of the flights would be 2 hours or less in duration - most would be under 1.5 hours - and are currently expensive to extremely expensive.

Then, after this hub is well-developed, there would be the potential of establishing additional ones, at, say, BUD, PRG and WAW, to also serve some of the same destinations as from VIE.

Now someone will come along and ruin my idea.  Big grin LOL
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alespesl
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:27 am

[email protected]:

I dont think that there would be room for flights between VIE and PRG.

OS has on average 5-6 daily flights between these two cities and CSA Czech Airlines has on average 2-3 daily flights.

That's between 7-9 flights a day and for 55 minutes flight, I think there is no more room for any other carrier.
 
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:50 am

A new carrier will be able to compete - if the price is inexpensive and good valu. It will also break the current duopoly.

If the fares were lower, then the demand will rise: people will travel more often; those who would have put it off would be inclined to travel; some of those who would have gone overland would go by air; etc. The current level of demand really would not remain the same - it would increase.

Also, those passengers who had to put up with OS's and CSA's expensive fares would have a cheaper option. OK, so the airlines might compete on price, but if you have sufficient financial and other resources, plus the determination, inclination, etc. - then that might be OK.

At the moment, the airfares are expensive from VIE to PRG - but certainly not the most expensive for VIE-Eastern Europe - despite being, as you said, only a 55-minute flight. Let's consider the following:

1) Dep 18th Mar, return 19th Mar: 275.03 EUR on OS; 561.03 EUR on CSA.
2) Dep 1st Apr, return 8th Apr: 325.03 on OS; 221.03 EUR on CSA.
3) Dep 1st Jul, return 17th Jul: 275.03 EUR on OS; 266.03 on CSA.

A random day-trip, on 1st May, would cost 561.03 EUR on CSA and 275.03 on OS.

A one-way fare from VIE to PRG, on 1st May, would cost 315.17 EUR on OS.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
alespesl
Posts: 562
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:59 am

RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:38 am

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 36):
A new carrier will be able to compete - if the price is inexpensive and good valu. It will also break the current duopoly.

If the fares were lower, then the demand will rise: people will travel more often; those who would have put it off would be inclined to travel; some of those who would have gone overland would go by air; etc. The current level of demand really would not remain the same - it would increase.

Also, those passengers who had to put up with OS's and CSA's expensive fares would have a cheaper option. OK, so the airlines might compete on price, but if you have sufficient financial and other resources, plus the determination, inclination, etc. - then that might be OK.

At the moment, the airfares are expensive from VIE to PRG - but certainly not the most expensive for VIE-Eastern Europe - despite being, as you said, only a 55-minute flight. Let's consider the following:

1) Dep 18th Mar, return 19th Mar: 275.03 EUR on OS; 561.03 EUR on CSA.
2) Dep 1st Apr, return 8th Apr: 325.03 on OS; 221.03 EUR on CSA.
3) Dep 1st Jul, return 17th Jul: 275.03 EUR on OS; 266.03 on CSA.

A random day-trip, on 1st May, would cost 561.03 EUR on CSA and 275.03 on OS.

A one-way fare from VIE to PRG, on 1st May, would cost 315.17 EUR on OS.

You are right about the competetion on this route. Actually SmartWings were to start PRG-VIE route last year but they pulled out of it.

I think there is lots of connecting traffic in both directions. I flew many times in past 4 years YYZ-VIE-PRG or PRG-VIE-LHR-YYZ.

The flights between VIE and PRG or PRG and VIE were always full or 80% full. All these flights are operated by DASH 8 or ATR 42,72 a/c and I think that there aircraft would not be efficient for LCC operation. And if you gonna put B737 or A318 you are not going to fill it on this short hop.
 
[email protected]
Topic Author
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:16 am

Quoting Alespesl (Reply 37):
I think that there aircraft would not be efficient for LCC operation.

 no  Some larger turboprop aircraft are brilliant options for a low-cost airline. A VIE-based Eastern European specialist LCC would certainly be wise to choose the AT7 or DH4. Not only are virtually all the routes under 1.5 hours in duration, but the aircraft would be easier to fill, could happily operate on niche routes (where other machines would be too large), would be able to offer greater frequency, etc. The DH4 might be a better option than the AT7: it has a longer range (up to 1,300 or so nms - in case you wish to serve something further), can seat more passengers, cruises faster (about 350 kts), is regarded as being far better in terms of comfort, quietness, etc. The DH4 would be a brilliant - and efficient - choice.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:01 pm

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 34):
Can you imagine how successful, in theory, a no-frills, low-cost airline, with its main base in VIE, would be, when it would operate, say, the AT7 or DH4 and concentrate on Eastern Europe?

Assuming it is possible to obtain permission to commence routes and obtain workable slots and so forth, there would be enormous potential - probably over 40 routes from VIE to places in Eastern Europe.

I agree totally - I've long been thinking on the east euro low cost market and have commented publicly in the past on it. However although I'm a guy who prefers my main airports, in such a venture as this, I'd base in Bratislava and bus the passengers the short distance to Vienna (I've driven the route plenty of times and it doesn't take long). If you are going for the no frills market and connectivity and time taken is less of an issue for the passenger than cheap fares, then the hugely cheaper labour costs and airport charges would see me prefer Bratislava rather than VIE.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:08 pm

Hey Cornish,

How are you today?

The reason I decided VIE - despite BTS's obviously cheaper taxes, labour costs, etc. - is its convenience. But, as you rightly said, BTS would probably be a better choice. A potential downside, though, might surely be that businesspeople might be put off. However, I am almost certain that the flights could be of interest to them if significiantly cheaper - businesspeople, especially of small- and medium-sized businesses are, it would seem, nowadays more cost-conscious - plus also generate far more VFR and leisure-orientated passengers due to the reduced prices. It would be easy to offer a BTS-(downtown) VIE-BTS coach.

How long would you say VIE-BTS would take?
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:22 pm

Morning Mr P. Hope all is well

Knackered after a six hour meeting yesterday afternoon.....

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 40):
The reason I decided VIE - despite BTS's obviously cheaper taxes, labour costs, etc. - is its convenience. But, as you rightly said, BTS would probably be a better choice.

Well I guess we'd need to see who is the potential market. If its primarily business then I'd got for VIE, if its less business then I'd go for BTS.

Then to look at things another way. If you see the bulk of your passengers as Austrians then go for VIE (price would be less of an issue for them - particularly VIE residents), if you see the bulk of your market as from other East Euro countries then go for BTS for reasons I've mentioned earlier (price, less concern about journey time, etc).

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 40):
How long would you say VIE-BTS would take?

Well I've driven it a fair few times - but that was around 10 years ago when I lived in western Hungary. My memory is starting to go in my old age, but I seem to recall it may have taken about 45 mins (perhaps one of our Austrians can correct me). The road may be much better now though, as in those days a large chunk wasn't motorway or dual carriageway. Also that was in my old knackered car. In my nice shiny German affair today I could probably blitz it in no time at all.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
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Topic Author
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RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:26 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 41):
Knackered after a six hour meeting yesterday afternoon.....

A bit  old  eh?  Big grin

Quoting Cornish (Reply 41):
I seem to recall it may have taken about 45 mins

Ahhh that's fine. Just like Victoria-STN on the train. No problemo.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:29 pm

The years are taking their toll !!!

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 42):
Ahhh that's fine. Just like Victoria-STN on the train. No problemo.

Interestingly there is also a quick shuttle train service between Vienna and Braitslava. I've heard there's plans to connect BTS into the rail network. If so then that could make it even more atttractive to get to VIE from there - or for that matter somewhere like Gyor in Hungary too.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
futurestar68
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 1:26 am

RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:37 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 41):
about 45 mins (perhaps one of our Austrians can correct me)

Well, depends on how you're driving...  Smile but about 45 mins - 1 hour is correct
greetings Martin
 
futurestar68
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 1:26 am

RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:48 pm

Read that right after posting my answer to Cornish...

Quoting Cornish (Reply 43):
I've heard there's plans to connect BTS into the rail network

Since December 2003 we have the CAT (=City Airport Train), which takes you in only 16 minutes from Vienna City Centre to the airport, and - if the plans will ever become true - this train will also serve Bratislava from Vienna Int'l Airport... But I expect high ticket-prices, as the return-ticket from the airport to Vienna City Centre costs a "normal" person (without any possibilities to get a cheaper/free ticket like those who work at VIE) € 16,- ...

Greetings Martin
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:56 pm

Quoting Futurestar68 (Reply 44):
Well, depends on how you're driving... but about 45 mins - 1 hour is correct

Thanks for the clarification martin.

Quoting Futurestar68 (Reply 45):
Since December 2003 we have the CAT (=City Airport Train), which takes you in only 16 minutes from Vienna City Centre to the airport, and - if the plans will ever become true - this train will also serve Bratislava from Vienna Int'l Airport... But I expect high ticket-prices, as the return-ticket from the airport to Vienna City Centre costs a "normal" person (without any possibilities to get a cheaper/free ticket like those who work at VIE) € 16,- ...

Martin, Are trains only going from the airport to Vienna city centre at the moment - is the airport connected to the Vienna-Gyor-Budapest line. If so are there plans for the expresses from Budapest to stop there?
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
futurestar68
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 1:26 am

RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:12 pm

Cornish

Yes, at the moment the CAT is only going from the airport to V.C.C., but we have another train service that provides nonstop-services from the airport to different districts in Vienna (and Lower Austria) while the CAT only stops at city centre...
We also have bus services from VIE to Bratislava, Budapest and some other cities, I'm sorry but I don't know exactly the cities that are served by those buses, but tell me if you're interested in it and I'll check it for you  Smile
Greetings Martin
 
White Eagle
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed May 02, 2001 12:32 pm

RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:46 pm

Cornish

Novi Sad is not "an ethnically Hungarian city" despite its history.

Nearly half of modern day Serbia was part Austria-Hungary before WW1 but did not mean that the population was Austrian or Hungarian!

Most Hungarians actually live near the city of Subotica and not Novi Sad.

Not having a dig at you but get your facts right before making a statement.
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: Vienna-Eastern European Flights

Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:02 pm

Quoting White Eagle (Reply 48):
Most Hungarians actually live near the city of Subotica and not Novi Sad.

Not having a dig at you but get your facts right before making a statement

No no - thanks for giving another perspective. My knowledge has always come from the Hungarian end of things where they will claim that it is a "Hungarian" city. Often a problem in eastern europe finding out who is exactly right in such questions as it is always a contentious topic. Clearly from your response that is a bit wide of the mark. Thanks for correcting me otherwise

However my point about travel north to Budapest for flights is most certainly true. I have seen official information regarding the profiles of passengrs through BUD airport in the past. Maybe if links and prices improve out of BEG this will become less so.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work

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