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Cory6188
Topic Author
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Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:29 am

CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:12 am

CO just posted this news release on their website, outlining what will happen if their employees don't ratify the current round of paycuts. It sounds pretty bad to me.

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix....l-newsArticle&ID=685836&highlight=

"These actions include:
* Increasing the size of needed pay and benefit reductions to
$800 million from the current $500 million
-- This 60-percent increase is because, without March 30
ratifications, Continental's deteriorating financial condition will
require significantly greater pay and benefit reductions from each
work group.

* Subleasing or selling 24 Boeing 737-500 aircraft
-- As part of its contingency planning, Continental has engaged
aircraft broker Focus Aviation to market these aircraft.
-- The 737-500 aircraft has relatively few seats compared to
Continental's other mainline aircraft and has become less
attractive to operate in a low-fare environment.
-- This mainline fleet reduction will result in frequency reductions
and aircraft gauge downsizing in various markets.

* Furloughing a significant number of employees
-- With the reduction of the 737-500 fleet, Continental will shrink,
resulting in the need for fewer employees.
-- The reduction in force will include a significant number of pilots,
flight attendants, mechanics and other positions related to the
drop in fleet size and block hours.

* Canceling the Boeing aircraft order
-- Cancel plans to lease eight 757-300 aircraft
-- Cancel accelerated delivery of six Boeing 737-800 aircraft
-- Cancel orders for 10 new Boeing 787 aircraft
-- Discuss with Boeing deferring all 40 remaining aircraft on order
that are scheduled for delivery beyond 2005

* Needing to post up to an additional $335 million in cash deposits,
further reducing cash available for operations and pension
contributions
-- This will occur if Continental fails to maintain its liquidity
covenants contained in its credit card processing agreement."


Maybe now the employees will realize the importance of ratifying the new contracts.

[Edited 2005-03-15 23:15:03]
 
AASTEW
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:21 am

Cory,

Do you work for CO?

Those would be some really drastic cuts for a carrier the size of CO. I can't believe some of the international growth wouldn't be cut. Seems that is gonna take a lot of their cash up initially. It really cost a lot to start up a new destination. Just a thought!
 
Cory6188
Topic Author
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:26 am

Quoting AASTEW (Reply 1):
Do you work for CO?

Not even close. I'm only 16 - I'm still a Junior in high school. I want to work for CO in the future (and hopefully they'll still be around), but at the moment, my only job is school (well, I also am a lifeguard, but that's beside the point).
 
ewrw4co
Posts: 36
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:26 am

Quoting AASTEW (Reply 1):
I can't believe some of the international growth wouldn't be cut.

That's what is making CO money? The 737-500's are loosing money and thats why the are removing 1 row FC for 2 rows of Y.
Working Hard
 
Lemurs
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:51 am

You can never be sure how much of a press release is scare tactic hyperbole, and how much is real...but I will say that it seems like CO is doing the smart thing in terms of their long-term health in trying to concentrate on expanding their international business and scaling back to high load factor routes and times domestically.

This probably isn't good for ME in the long run, but they're definitely in the position of: "If we're not growing, we're shrinking." They need capital to keep building profitable routes, or else they'll never get over their operating deficit. Such a delicate dance...

(Edited for tense)

[Edited 2005-03-15 23:59:41]
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
FlyHoss
Posts: 534
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:46 am

I can't help but wonder if CO is doing some polling and that polling is indicating that the concessions may not pass. So some more "whip" is in order; will we see some more "carrot" too?
I noted in the latest company video (to the employees) mentioned the high costs of oil (fuel) and the relatively low yield environment, but never said that employee costs were too high. I do understand that employee costs are easier to control than those other costs, though. But even with the concessions "in-hand" CO's C.A.S.M. will still be high.
Just how much higher, on the average, would the cost of a ticket have to rise, to make a profit (keeping in mind the 2 recent fare increases)?
A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
 
ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:58 am

Quoting Cory6188 (Thread starter):
Needing to post up to an additional $335 million in cash deposits,
further reducing cash available for operations and pension
contributions

To me, this says it all. It surely doesn't take a rocket scientist to read a balance sheet and see that their cash position is in dire straits without these reductions. Heck it doesn't even take a pilot, or a flight attendant.

Cash is the lifeblood of any business. Without it, you can't pay the bills or operate machinery which generates revenue. Worse, for a business like CO, the cash position itself dictates terms for debt service. If it slips, the pressures will keep mounting. Personally, I was hoping they'd have all this squared away by the end of February. What *was* I thinking?

Don't screw this up, guys. If this degenerates to labor-mgmt shenanigans (e.g. -- work slowdowns or stoppages), you'll be headed for the Delta/USAir/United bin not just because of increased cost pressures, but declining revenues as loyal customers jump ship. And they will, too.
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
ANNOYEDFA
Posts: 441
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:46 pm

If anyone has seen the consession packet it's pathetic. It's a no vote from 3 of the 5 people of logging under this name. Three being mainline. If they want the Flight Attendant's to work for less then our job should require less duties. Until I see the proposal for less work for less money and a better package most could careless about their scare tactic's.  sarcastic 
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
1MillionFlyer
Posts: 1937
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:02 pm

First of all great post for 16!

This is sad. I love CO and I hate to see anyone take another pay cut. I don't think this is hyperbole, it is just another manifestation of over supply in the marketplace. there is really nothing CO can do but cut costs in this market. Best wishes to them!
Golf Foxtrot you are cleared for departure
 
coa764
Posts: 309
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:05 pm

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 7):
If anyone has seen the consession packet it's pathetic. It's a no vote from 3 of the 5 people of logging under this name. Three being mainline. If they want the Flight Attendant's to work for less then our job should require less duties. Until I see the proposal for less work for less money and a better package most could careless about their scare tactic's

Nice, they park those 500's and you might be doing both just that. Face it, 4.4 mil a day loss is not going to get you a raise. Scare tactics you say, last I checked that is a show on the Sci Fi channel. This is a 10-K filing and it is very real. Ask yourself this, in the light of the verdict against Bernard Ebbers (ex-WorldCom CEO convicted on nine counts, seven of which were for making false filings to the SEC) today do still think that this a ruse on the part of management? The SEC has made it very clear that false filing will not be tolerated so odds are if management is filing on then you can bet that it is the real deal.
Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
 
Cory6188
Topic Author
Posts: 2710
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:00 pm

AnnoyedFA, I have a question. What will your response be when they pull 24 of the 735s from the fleet? Will it still be a "scare tactic" then? When will you realize that the situation is truly dire? Exactly how is CO lying to the federal government? If this was simply printed in a bulletin to the employees, sure I could believe that the numbers might have been fudged, however, when it is found in a 10-K filing, they cannot lie. This is the truth.

And to 1MillionMiler, I appreciate the compliment, although my post really wasn't that big of a deal.

[Edited 2005-03-16 13:03:57]
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:53 pm

Just how much higher, on the average, would the cost of a ticket have to rise, to make a profit (keeping in mind the 2 recent fare increases)?

I don't know about "per ticket", but if I'm not mistaken, the Daily News Update employees get everyday lists what the load factor is, and what the "break-even" load factor is right now. Last time I looked, the break-even load factor was some ridiculously high number in the 80% range. Pre 9/11, I remember seeing the break-even load factor as 63%. Now, even Annoyedfa can do the math, and see that if there's a more than 20% difference in the pre 9/11 break-even load factor, and what it is today, that the cost of fuel, the drop in ticket prices, and the lack of flying by high-yield passengers is just killing the airline. But I'm sure he'll tell you those numbers are faked.

I noted in the latest company video (to the employees) mentioned the high costs of oil (fuel) and the relatively low yield environment, but never said that employee costs were too high.

I don't think anyone thinks labor costs are too "high", but again, when you have fuel prices and ticket prices heading in such incredibly opposite directions-one going way up, the other has gone way down-something has to give. And, whether the naive like Annoyedfa wants to admit it, the only real controllable cost an airline has is wages. And after cutting $2 billion in costs the last few years, and still CO is in the red, the only real measures is wages.

If anyone has seen the consession packet it's pathetic. It's a no vote from 3 of the 5 people of logging under this name. Three being mainline. If they want the Flight Attendant's to work for less then our job should require less duties. Until I see the proposal for less work for less money and a better package most could careless about their scare tactic's.

Annoyedfa, if you're REALLY that naive, and that stupid-you and other f/a's, to believe this is just a "scare tactic", then you personally, being a junior f/a, are going to get what you deserve-a pink slip, and don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. And I'll tell that to any f/a who wants to get into it with me over this issue. When those aircraft start exiting the fleet, and your vote leads to the shrinking of this airline, no one on here will have the least bit sympathy for you if you lose you job, or the company goes into Ch 11, and some judge takes even more money out of your pocket.

As for you wanting to work less, you make it clear you do just about as little as possible as it is. That's just baby-like bellyaching from you.

Vote no, and the job you lose may be your own. Not that I would cry if you lost yours, but a lot of good f/a's will, and that will be very sad.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
NWAFA
Posts: 1843
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:56 pm

This is nothing more than a scare tactic..CO still other options they could do to save money instead of bulling the dedicated employees.
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:08 pm

This is nothing more than a scare tactic..CO still other options they could do to save money instead of bulling the dedicated employees.

And that's nothing but a tired, lame, worn-out union line, that, if you look around the industry, has been proven wrong over and over again. It's no scare tactic, and sure, if you want to take every amenity away from customers, you could save a fellow union member some cash, but that won't help the airline much.

Unions are the last group to successfully adapt to changing conditions, and this is pathetically being proven once again. The gravy days are gone in this industry, for a long, long time, and your kind of denial of what's going on just proves that point.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
supa7E7
Posts: 1360
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:05 am

RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:17 pm

CO is smart to bully its employees. They need it to grasp reality, as we all do sometimes. They should thank CO for being so upfront with them. Either CO is smart or stupid. Do you really believe they're stupid?

I highly doubt they will get March 30 deals, though. First, the very brink of bankruptcy must be reached.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
ewr757
Posts: 356
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2000 8:47 am

RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:46 pm

I was wondering how long it was going to take Falcon to berate and attack another for a differing opinion. Especially when it does not affect his pay or benefits directly. No reasonable discussion or debate on facts....just hype and propoganda. What a guy!

As far as parking the 735's...sounds like a good idea. The company can't make money on them with the ridiculous lease rates in place. This announcement in my opinion is nothing more than a reaction from the company to the feedback to date. Especially with the pilots.

I've read the entire TA for the pilots and my vote is a resonding no. On a pilots only site (although not statistically accurate) it is being polled. It appears I am far from being alone with that answer.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:55 pm

Same tune, different airline.....
 
AASTEW
Posts: 418
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 10:47 am

RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:21 pm

I believe CO hasn't done much to cutting costs in the product department. Take pillows, magazines, free food service, and other amenities CO customers are no longer paying for off the A/C.

Yes, CO still has one of the best products now, but is that product winning them more business. I think not! Good luck to all CO employees.
 
NWAFA
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:32 pm

AASTEW,

You hit it on the head...but be careful, your going to get the A.nets from Europe and the 16-21 years on this site bitching that they need to add more of those things to the A/C and just let the employees take paycuts and reductions, as the food is more important than a paycheck.
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
supa7E7
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:38 pm

NWAFA.. this is _america_... not russia. If you want more money, get more education. I plan to.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
NWAFA
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:40 pm

Supa,

Why should employees take paycuts instead of looking at other ways to save money?

Are you aware, that every time an airline employee that has taken a pay cut, that when passengers board and fly that the EMPLOYEE is paying for that passengers to go to Aunt Dots home in MIA?
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
ContnlEliteCMH
Posts: 1385
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:19 am

RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:42 pm

Quoting NWAFA (Reply 18):
You hit it on the head...but be careful, your going to get the A.nets from Europe and the 16-21 years on this site bitching that they need to add more of those things to the A/C and just let the employees take paycuts and reductions, as the food is more important than a paycheck.

Do you honestly think those things would add up to $3 million per day? Just how much food, pillows, and magazines do you think it would take to equal $3 million *per day*?

Also, I see a lot of people in this thread saying things like "You just need to cut other things." Funny, but none of you ever list the "other things." Well, except for our pilot friend who thinks that parking the 735's is a viable alternative, and he's right -- it is, though probably not the most beneficial.

So, let's have it. What are they? And remember, you have to get $3 million per day.
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:48 pm

Quoting AASTEW (Reply 17):
I believe CO hasn't done much to cutting costs in the product department. Take pillows, magazines, free food service, and other amenities CO customers are no longer paying for off the A/C.

If by this you mean that haven't gone LOW RENT like AA, US, UA, etc, you're right. They are still a true legacy carrier . . . you can have those nasty pillows though, never use them.

Quoting NWAFA (Reply 18):
AASTEW,

You hit it on the head...but be careful, your going to get the A.nets from Europe and the 16-21 years on this site bitching that they need to add more of those things to

I'm neither European nor as young as quoted, nor do I think they need to add anything - they should be careful however about cutting anything out. Sure, park the 735s - no big deal - but don't hack away at cabin service - one of the only true identifiers that makes CO a great carrier instead of another NW look-alike.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
ewr757
Posts: 356
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:22 am

>>And remember, you have to get $3 million per day.<<

CMH, don't forget that those figures include money for the CPA at XJET. I'd like to see CO's stand alone losses without cash going to XJET to support heir operations (like the fuel subsidy). Also, this period is historically a money losing time of the year anyway. Not that makes it right, but I don't think CO was ever profitable in Feb. or Jan, (along with most other carriers).

I am glad we have kept the amenities on board. I feel it is the little things people remember that will keep them coming back. I think staying on a full service, high class operation will set us apart from the others.

Thank you again for your business. If I remember correctly, you said you were a frequent flier on CO.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:27 am

Quoting AASTEW (Reply 17):
I believe CO hasn't done much to cutting costs in the product department. Take pillows, magazines, free food service, and other amenities CO customers are no longer paying for off the A/C.

Why should CO do that? It has differentiated us from other carriers, and believe me, I've had more than a few customers comment on the fact we have meals, pillows, blankets, and other carriers don't. You can make it so cheap no one will want it, and that's what other carriers are doing. It's not worth saving a small amount of money-and that would be a small amount, comparitively, to let some greedy-assed union member save a few pennies, over driving away some business.

Quoting AASTEW (Reply 17):
Yes, CO still has one of the best products now, but is that product winning them more business. I think not! Good luck to all CO employees.

Actually, it has, and our relatively good financial numbers, if you want to call it that, compared to other carriers, bears that out. We've made some operational profits in the past few years, where other carriers haven't had a sniff at that, and I'm sure one reason is CO has differentiated its product, which is why your idea is not a good one, imho.

Quoting Ewr757 (Reply 15):
As far as parking the 735's...sounds like a good idea

Sure, you don't fly 'em, partner, so why do you care if someone else loses their job, right? Again, everything centers around you, Ewr757, and to hell with everyone else. Why am I not surprised.

Quoting NWAFA (Reply 18):
You hit it on the head...

Actually, he swung and missed. What you, and Annoyedfa, and Ewr757 don't seem to get that what is going on isn't about YOU. It's about keeping the business viable, and making sure the carrier can survive. The flying public doesn't give a shit that you have to take a paycut so they can keep meals onboard-they want the meals, and to hell with what you and I might want, wage-wise. The driving force isn't the worker, it's the customer, and making sure we're around to service customers. You guys just don't seem to get that, which is why people like Ewr757 and Annoyedfa will throw this company into bankruptcy, and then they'll take even bigger cuts.

These idiots are willing to mortgage the future of this, or any, company, because they're simply short-sighted, or just don't get it. Either way, I will not cry for either one of them if 1. they get a pink slip, or 2. they take a bigger cut in bankruptcy, because it's their own doing.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
masseybrown
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:33 am

I flew on a 735 in early March and frankly it was looking pretty shabby, for Continental. Upholstery torn, armrest broken, carpet stained, etc. It was, however, on time and conveniently scheduled.

Hard to sympathize with the employees much. Haven't they noticed what has been going on at every other traditional airline?
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:34 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 24):
The driving force isn't the worker, it's the customer, and making sure we're around to service customers.

Right again!

You can have all the pretty planes and modern terminals and in flight amenities in the world - if the caircraft is empty - you're screwed. Want to keep the planes full, keep the passengers happy. . . . .

Why is that such a difficult concept?
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Falcon84
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:45 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 25):
Hard to sympathize with the employees much. Haven't they noticed what has been going on at every other traditional airline?

Exactly, MasseyBrown. What part of what's been going on in the entire industry does Ewr757 and Annoyedfa NOT understand? What part of skyrocketing fuel prices and falling ticket prices do they NOT understand. What part of ever-increasing government fees and taxes to cover "security" do they NOT understand? I'm not even good at math, and I can see it as clear as a cloudless day, yet they bury their head in the sand.

They scream and yell at management-the same management that saw us bringing in record profits, and say "it's their fault", when it's not. They tell management "you take cuts!", and when management does, it's never enough for them. They want everyone else-other employees, management, customers-to pay the price so they don't have to, and that's why I show such anger and wonder at their unbelievable attitude.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 26):
Why is that such a difficult concept?

Because, like I said, my friend, they think it's about them, not the customer.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
whiskeyhotel
Posts: 313
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 5:46 am

RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:56 am

From a purely consumer perspective, I fly CO almost exclusively, as I often travel between IAH/BNA-EDI (I occasionally take NW for a ride on a DC-10 or A330). For two years now I've been averaging 100K/year EQM's, so have enjoyed the plat upgrade (domestic), reward availability and lounge benefits. Nearly all of my flying is transatlantic in Q class or higher (Mostly U fares). I may not be the one of the super high-yield pax that always flies paid J (rarer and rarer these days, hence the very small number of CO Stars), but I provide a steady stream of income to CO of about $8,000/yr (How many pillows, blankets, magazines and in-house Chelsea meals does that come to?) As I often connect in EWR en route to IAH or BNA, the domestic quality of the operation does matter to me. I like a good chance of an upgrade, failing which a meal or snack at mealtime in Y. I choose to stay with CO for the free space available upgrades on it and NW (am not too keen on the 500 mile certs that AA and UA employ, even though their benefits for 100K flyers are substantially better). In short, I am loyal to CO for selfish reasons...I am a consumer, and as such, I choose them because I feel they are the best value for my money given my travel needs. If they gut the service and turn into another cattle-car carrier flying mostly ERJ's because the 735's were parked and they couldn't get their hands on any new 738's or 753's, I'll be writing the status-match desk at UA or flying an AA plat challenge tout-suite. At the moment I'm prepared to live with the fact that OnePass doesn't match up to certain other FFPs in terms of international upgrade benefits. A SWU would be great, but I can wait until the financial situation turns around, so CO can reward its employees with bonuses and be a bit more generous with Onepass benefits like it did in the late 90's. Regardless of how selfish they are, the customer is always right...funny how the free market can display overtly sociopathic behaviour. Companies that don't cater to the needs of their best customers generally don't fare too well in the marketplace. If I am mistaken and as a frequent longhaul international passenger my business doesn't mean diddly-squat to the company, then I apologise for wasting everyone's time with this post. I have a sneaking suspicion, though, from posts here and on FlyerTalk (Currently disintegrating into a CO hate-orgy), that other CO frequent flyers share my thoughts. I know my tiny contribution to the bottom line isn't much when $4M per day is going down the tubes...but lots of tiny contributions going elsewhere certainly wouldn't help.
 
ewr757
Posts: 356
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2000 8:47 am

RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:56 am

More expert analysis from Falcon

>>Sure, you don't fly 'Emma, partner, so why do you care if someone else loses their job, right? Again, everything centers around you, Ewr757, and to hell with everyone else. Why am I not surprised.<<

Interesting comment from you. Especially since you're so quick to point out to others to take a hike if they don't agree with your one sided closed minded opinions.

But let's talk facts, (even though you will ignore them anyway). 24 735's at a crewing of 6.2 pilots per aircraft works out to 149 pilots. There are 160 retirements for 2005 along with 112 (so far) taking the early out still leaving a short staffing situation on paper. Parking the 735's will have no effect on pilot future staffing. Further, the aircraft they are threateniing to cancel have not been bid on yet. From a staffing perspective, it is not an issue. Not one pilot would lose their job as a result of this.

Of course if you had a lick of knowledge instead of just blowing hot air and rambling about your bent and jaded view of things you would understand this.

How you are able to stand at the gate passing out tickets with your foot in your mouth all the time?


>>You guys just don't seem to get that, which is why people like Ewr757 and Annoyedfa will throw this company into bankruptcy, and then they'll take even bigger cuts.<<

If CO can't make money with one of the lowest labor CASM's in the industry then bankruptcy may have to be the plan. Fine with me. Then maybe they can fix some of the real problems within the company. Like non labor CASM.

Take even bigger cuts. That is a good one! At some point it all becomes moot pal. I'm figuring this tentative TA will cost me $600 - 700K over the lifetime.
You sure run your mouth freely when it concerns other peoples pay and benefits.

>>It's not worth saving a small amount of money-and that would be a small amount, comparitively, to let some greedy-assed union member save a few pennies, over driving away some business<<

Or fund some bloated compensation program for executives starting promptly in 2006.

>>These idiots are willing to mortgage the future of this, or any, company<<

Are you reffering to Gordon and company with their stock buy back program?
Yes, I agree with you. That $2B should of paid down debt and hedged fuel.

You keep reffering to me as an idiot. If you would like to compare college degrees, aircraft flown and our current positions on the food chain at CO, I'd be happy too. Just because the extent of your education and experience has stopped your career progression as a gate agent, it makes you look like a immature and jealous person with your continued labeling of others.

I am glad there are mediums like this forum for childish people like yourself to vent out their obvious frustrations and career inadequcies.

[Edited 2005-03-16 17:04:10]
 
ewr757
Posts: 356
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2000 8:47 am

RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:02 am

>>What part of skyrocketing fuel prices and falling ticket prices do they NOT understand. What part of ever-increasing government fees and taxes to cover "security" do they NOT understand? I'm not even good at math, and I can see it as clear as a cloudless day, yet they bury their head in the sand.<<

What part of the fact that labor can not continually subsidize increasing costs do you not understand?

What part of these costs will continue to rise and labor at some point can only give so much do you not understand?

What cuts have helped USAIR? UAL?

What part of the fact that our labor CASM is extrememly competitive and lower than SWA do you not understand?

So answer the question Falcon that you always ignore. Should oil continue to rise say to $80 - $100bbl.....do you thnk employee pay should be cut again for this? Answer it for a change. Or do you just not really understand what is taking place around you?

The more you run your mouth Falcon, the more you sound like a management schill.

[Edited 2005-03-16 17:06:12]
 
TommyBoy
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:04 am

"Management by Threat" is a tactic used by amature executives, rather than professional managers (and it rarely works). Professional managers get their points across to the people they manage by, over time, developing a culture of mutual respect between management and non-management by demonstrating honesty and integrety. Looks like the new CO CEO has a ways to go on that....
 
ewr757
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:10 am

>>"Management by Threat" is a tactic used by amateur executives, rather than professional managers (and it rarely works). Professional managers get their points across to the people they manage by, over time, developing a culture of mutual respect between management and non-management by demonstrating honesty and integrity. Looks like the new CO CEO has a ways to go on that....<<


Very well written statement. I have reserved my personal comments on the manner this "campaign" has been run, but you read my mind.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:11 am

If anyone has seen the consession packet it's pathetic. It's a no vote from 3 of the 5 people of logging under this name.

You have five different personalities using your name? That explains a lot.  sarcastic 


As far as parking the 735's...sounds like a good idea. The company can't make money on them with the ridiculous lease rates in place.

So I take it you're IN FAVOR of furloughs, then? Because a loss of 24 airframes from the fleet means a large number of employee furloughs, since the company won't need as many employees as they have now to operate fewer airplanes.

Yes, CO still has one of the best products now, but is that product winning them more business. I think not!

What? WHAT?!? Are you serious?  rotfl 

It's EXACTLY CO's product that consistently earns them high marks from frequent travelers in survey after survey - higher than AA, DL, UA and any other of the "Big Six" legacy carriers, I might add. Furthermore, CO's numbers indicate they do receive a revenue premium over and above the yield other legacy carriers get per customer.

Translation? Your post is horribly inaccurate. CO's product DOES win them more business.

You can make it so cheap no one will want it, and that's what other carriers are doing.

Amen! Thank God SOMEONE remembers what Gordon said about making pizzas - sure, you can make one cheap, cutting back all sorts of ingredients - but it'll be so bad that even though it's cheap no one will want it.

That's what CO is attempting to avoid with their product - cutting back to the point where no one wants it anymore.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ewr757
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:15 am

EA

>>So I take it you're IN FAVOR of furloughs, then? Because a loss of 24 airframes from the fleet means a large number of employee furloughs, since the company won't need as many employees as they have now to operate fewer airplanes.<<

I am in favor of dumping high cost aircraft that the company can not make money on. See my above comment to Falcon about staffing for pilots.
We are not in the business of providing jobs. We are in the business to make money.

If those aircraft were either replaced or the leases renegotiated they are on potentially profitable routes. I am of the opinion Larry does not want to lose market share. If they go, I would think a more economical replacement would be in the works. Lot's of rumors out there.

[Edited 2005-03-16 17:17:41]
 
Junction
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:21 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 16):
Same tune, different airline.....

Although I basically agree with this comment, since it has become very cliché to see such predictable bickering between airline mgmt and union employees, I sincerely hope CO successfully pulls off these ratifications in time. As a somewhat outside observer it really seems to me CO is at a fork in the road where one way would allow them to remain ahead of the pack in terms a proven quality product and high respect among the industry. While the other direction would just seem to somehow lump CO into the pathetic mix of all the other bleeding legacies. It probably sounds crazy to most, but even with wage and benefit cuts I would be more excited about the idea of working for the only U.S. legacy carrier with fleet expansion and growth plans while at the same time offering a top quality product, as opposed to possibly working a little longer with more money to only look forward to jobs cuts, A/C retirements and a declining product. I however, have a passion for aviation that I think some Airline employees do not.
 
Falcon84
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:22 am

Quoting EWR757 (Reply 29):
Especially since you're so quick to point out to others to take a hike if they don't agree with your one sided closed minded opinions.

One thing to say "take a hike" because of your self-centered opinion; it's another for you to be saying that to a fellow pilot who will lose his job so you don't have to feel any pain yourself. Totally different, sir.

Quoting EWR757 (Reply 29):
Of course if you had a lick of knowledge instead of just blowing hot air and rambling about your bent and jaded view of things you would understand this.

Uh huh. This from the man who screamed management take paycuts, and they did, who screamed they get rid of stock options for themselves (but gave you one), and they did; this from the man who screamed they give up bonuses, and they did-and then it's STILL not enough from him. Like I need to be lectured by you, sir.

Quoting EWR757 (Reply 29):
Or fund some bloated compensation program for executives starting promptly in 2006.

Or to fund the pay of a pilot who makes more than 90% of the people in this country, and who cries because his portfolio won't be as big. Again, you look at such trivial things, and make mountains out of it, and you want me to take you seriously, sir? Sorry, no can do.

Quoting EWR757 (Reply 29):
You keep reffering to me as an idiot. If you would like to compare college degrees, aircraft flown and our current positions on the food chain at CO

A college degree, sir, doesn't make on Albert Einstein, does it? And the truth comes out-you just think you're BETTER, because you're a pilot-an attitude, I might add, that I've seen from a few pilots over the years-and THAT is why you don't think you I should give, management should give, and other employees should lose their jobs-because you're somehow better.

Well, maybe you do fly, and you do a damn good job at it, but you're an overbearing, arrogant, self-centered person, and it's the likes of you, sir, who are willing to bring the company down, for his own benefit. And I stand by what I said. I've known plenty of people with degrees from a university who were dumber than rocks. Obviously, your degree didn't teach you some basic economics of airlines, that's painfully clear, sir.

Quoting EWR757 (Reply 30):
The more you run your mouth Falcon, the more you sound like a management schill.

Better wipe that union brown from your nose, my friend. Like you have room to talk.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
CALMSP
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:27 am

ANNOYEDFA......I find it hard to believe that you expect to do less work if you take a paycut.....how much less work can you really do? YOu have one of the easiest jobs at the airport. Someof my friends (who are FA's) even admit to me that they dont do that much when working flights. Dont get me wrong, you may get one or two that are more demanding depending on the passengers. But look at us on the ramp....we are working probably 10x harder than what you are, but your making 3x the amount of money that I am.
 
Falcon84
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:32 am

CALMSP, you can't argue with the blind, like Annoyedfa and Ewr757. They feel so put upon, for some reason, by the world, and that drives their anger at having the company dare ask them for a paycut in order to help the company survive long-term.

You guys on the ramp do damn fine work-and you do work a HUNDRED times harder than any pilot or any f/a, no disrespect to what they do. I have a job that can be a little different: it can be boring as hell, and not much work to do when things go smoothly, on a light load day, but on a busy day, with lots of overbooked flights, or lots of delays during bad weather, it can wear you out-not physically, because it's more mental work, but you can get just as tired sometime, when the crap is hitting the fan.

If there is a group that doesn't deserve a paycut, it's you guys.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
NWAFA
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:33 am

CALMSP-

Every work group is working hard. You on the ramp get your hour for lunch every day. You get your two 15 minute breaks during the day.

Rampers work very hard. Flight Attendants work very hard. We have very long days (12-15 hours, with NO breaks sometimes). Many of days we miss out on lunch or dinner. You get to go home every night to your own bed and be there for a good 12+ hours....we get to schlep into a hotel room at midnight, be up at 6am for a 7am van for an 8am departure....all to repeat the 13 hour day again...

Please don't do the "us against you" thing.
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
Falcon84
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:35 am

NWAFA, no one put a gun to your head, or mine, or CALMSP. Stop bitching about how bad you have it. If you're so put upon, find another line of work.

And it's guys like Annoyedfa and Ewr757 who are making it an "us vs. you" thing, because of their blindness at what's going on around them.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
NWAFA
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:36 am

Falcon, I was not bitching. CAL was in fact doing the "us vs you".
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
Falcon84
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:39 am

CAL is trying to survive and make a profit. I know, compared to you personal well-being, that's not important, but it is to us who value our long-term job prospects. It isn't CAL doing this, although like a good little union sycophant, you want people to believe that-it's those like Ewr757, who are willing to play games, when the long-term survival of this airline is in the balance.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ANNOYEDFA
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:40 am

Looks like it's going to be a no from both end's. They better start figuring something else out. When the company was making money han over fist we saw nothing but a measley ontime bonus check monthly and our "profit sharing" check at the end of the year. While everyone else was enjoying much of that money...
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
Falcon84
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:45 am

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 43):
They better start figuring something else out

You don't get it, do you? That 10K filing yesterday was what will happen, because idiots like you are so short-sighted. You will see routes cut, jobs cut (hopefully yours), long-term growth plans to help us get out of this mess cut; you'll see a possible Ch 11 filing where, I guarantee you, if you're still here, you WILL take a paycut, because a judge won't give you a choice; you'll see this airline become, more or less, like UA and US, who can't get anything right these days-all because you haven't got a clue, Mr. Annoyed.

And it's you're doing-not mine, not management-yours. Hope you enjoy the center seats you'll get traveling on personal time, my friend.

You don't even have a clue, kid, you really don't. You are so naive and clueless that it would be funny, if it weren't so tragic.

Enjoy whatever new line of work you'll be in. Can't say I'm sorry for you, though.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
777gk
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:48 am

We do enjoy a revenue premium over the rest of the industry, and I could dig through the 8-Ks and conference call transcripts to uncover exact numbers, but I'm flying tonight and I've got stuff to get done beforehand.

To put it briefly, our leadership is a group of competent professionals. Cuts to our product would ultimately lead to a loss of the revenue premium and consequentially larger cuts in pay and benefits. I'd rather take something relatively cut-and-dried (i.e. the latest reduction package) than vote no and risk a deteriorating situation demanding even more out of my paycheck further down the road, and worse, the loss of the jobs of my colleagues becoming essential for the carrier's survival.

We aren't at the edge of a cliff yet, but we know it's coming. I don't know about everyone else, but I'd rather take the hit now and ride out the storm than get so close to the precipice that no matter what we do, recovery is impossible.

Now, I'm off on yet another trip with the hardest working, most professional group of people in the business. We deserve better, but I'd hate to see what happens if we DON'T ratify the agreement.
 
coa764
Posts: 309
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:50 am

Quoting EWR757 (Reply 29):
But let's talk facts, (even though you will ignore them anyway). 24 735's at a crewing of 6.2 pilots per aircraft works out to 149 pilots. There are 160 retirements for 2005 along with 112 (so far) taking the early out still leaving a short staffing situation on paper. Parking the 735's will have no effect on pilot future staffing. Further, the aircraft they are threateniing to cancel have not been bid on yet. From a staffing perspective, it is not an issue. Not one pilot would lose their job as a result of this.

Your forgetting about all other groups that will be impacted by 24 a/c exiting the fleet. Lets say an average days flying equals 5 segments x 24 that is - 120 flights a day. So you might see stations close or the flying pushed to Express that means lots of people (other than pilots) pounding the pavement.

Not to mention that the company will come back asking for 800 mil, how much will that cost over over a lifetime? That will all be a moot point if the current T/A is voted down and the company enters bankruptcy because once there they will get what they want one way or another.

Quoting NWAFA (Reply 12):
This is nothing more than a scare tactic..CO still other options they could do to save money instead of bulling the dedicated employees

What are they? Were would you suggest the cuts come from?

Quoting EWR757 (Reply 29):
If CO can't make money with one of the lowest labor CASM's in the industry then bankruptcy may have to be the plan. Fine with me. Then maybe they can fix some of the real problems within the company. Like non labor CASM.

With all the cuts other companies have been making CO now has one of the higher labor costs out there.
Oh but that is all company BS, a ruse on the part of upper management to dupe us lowly employees so they can get all their secret bonuses in 2006. In fact I bet they are planning and scheming right now about the next round of scare tactics and cuts so they can make even more bonus money off the backs of labor. The price of oil is really at 34 bucks a barrel, the ticket prices really are a lot higher, and the money is pouring in. They (managment) have cleaverly been able to hide the truth from everybody, lining thier pockets with your money while you have to take a cut.

Before you are so quick to jump on the scare tactics bandwagon pick up a paper and read about Bernard Ebbers conviction on all nine counts. The day of filing false reports are over. So Mulder what you saying is the following is all a fabrication by the shadow managment lead by smoking man?
http://sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/3...031968705000036/f200410k031505.htm
Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
 
ewr757
Posts: 356
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:51 am

Falcon

>>One thing to say "take a hike" because of your self-centered opinion; it's another for you to be saying that to a fellow pilot who will lose his job so you don't have to feel any pain yourself. Totally different, sir.<<

You have a reading comprehension problem Falcon. Not one pilot on the property today would lose their job if they parked the 24 735's. Obviously facts and figures easily confuse you. Ignoring them only makes one of us look ignorant.

>>Uh huh. This from the man who screamed management take paycuts, and they did, who screamed they get rid of stock options for themselves (but gave you one), and they did; this from the man who screamed they give up bonuses, and they did-and then it's STILL not enough from him. Like I need to be lectured by you, sir.<<

You don’t need to be lectured. People that are lectured actually listen. Management cut their pay after a pay raise. Second, their bonuses kick back in with gusto in 2006. Some sharing of the pain when all groups are asked for continued sacrifice long after that. So defensive yet again. The picture becomes clearer.

>>Or to fund the pay of a pilot who makes more than 90% of the people in this country, and who cries because his portfolio won't be as big. Again, you look at such trivial things, and make mountains out of it, and you want me to take you seriously, sir? Sorry, no can do.<<

I do things that I trained very hard for that 99 percent of the people in the country can not do without the same amount of skill and training. So what? You want me to feel sorry for you? Sorry..no can do.

That is the second or third time you have whined about portfolio's. You must have "portfolio envy" (among other things).

>>A college degree, sir, doesn't make on Albert Einstein, does it? And the truth comes out-you just think you're BETTER, because you're a pilot-an attitude,<<

No, I am speaking just of you and me. You called me an idiot. I am saying that we should compare our educations and training before you keep slinging your verbage and personal attacks around. In the end, they just make you look immature, so do continue.

>>I might add, that I've seen from a few pilots over the years-and THAT is why you don't think you I should give, management should give, and other employees should lose their jobs-because you're somehow better.<<

Wow, you really have some serious emotional problems and misconceptions.

>>Well, maybe you do fly, and you do a damn good job at it<<

I do.

>> but you're an overbearing, arrogant, self-centered person<<

As compared to you? Now that is funny. If my personal opinion about MY career, MY contract, and MY job description bother you so much, perhaps you should invest the time energy and money into doing what I do. Until then you can pound sand. Deal?

,>>and it's the likes of you, sir, who are willing to bring the company down, for his own benefit.<<

Odd you don’t see the past multi millions paid out to upper management as playing a part of this. I am not willing to underwrite a business plan.

>>And I stand by what I said. I've known plenty of people with degrees from a university who were dumber than rocks. Obviously, your degree didn't teach you some basic economics of airlines, that's painfully clear, sir.<<

That’s why you just ignore pointed and logical facts right? Your “economic analysis" Falcon is nothing more than words from a scared little man you refuses to see the larger picture. No problem. There are a lot of sheep in the world. Welcome to their club. You can parrot the DNU and the fear mongering all you want. Go right ahead. Pity you take neither the time nor opinion there are other factors involved here. Perhaps you just can't grasp them? Perhaps you're just a scared lost soul. I don't know, I don't care.

>>Better wipe that union brown from your nose, my friend. Like you have room to talk.<<

Sure Falcon, whatever you say. Your own words make you so transparent.

You still refuse to answer the pointed questions of the future and increased non labor costs? I wonder why? Your silence is deafening and at the same time very enlightening about you.
 
ewr757
Posts: 356
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2000 8:47 am

RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:56 am

>>And it's you're doing-not mine, not management-yours. Hope you enjoy the center seats you'll get traveling on personal time, my friend.<<

How petty and pathetic Falcon. Grow up.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: CO's Situation Without The Concessions

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:56 am

Hey EWR757, stop fixating on me, pal, and read what a fellow employee like 777gk is saying. Stop fixating on me, and look at what elite members like WhiskeyHotel and ContinentalEliteCMH are saying: they're saying what I am saying, but you ignore them: that you don't get it; that you are going to be the reason CO could be in trouble-not management, not those of us who may not like the paycuts, but who know their necessary-it's you, and your arrogant, self-centered, short-sighted attitude.

When your pay is cut even further, and, one way or another, it will be, don't bitch to us on here, because, well, we told ya' so.
Work Right, Fly Hard

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