Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
artsyman
Topic Author
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

To The Continental FA's

Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:06 pm

With such an important choice to make over the next week, I feel the need to ask some of you to really stop, take a deep breath, and read some information regarding your imminent vote.

It is a good thing that at this time, there is a choice, and you have the power ultimately to decide what path, and what future that your airline has in store.

I have heard several on here make comments like "I don't care what they offer, I'll vote no" and I feel it is sad that with so much on the line for yourselves personally, that you take such a closed off position.

While ultimately you will end up making whatever choice you make, I implore you for the sake of your own future to take some time to read into the situation, read some of what the company tells you, what the unions tell you and not just what your friends tell you.

I am not here to suggest that all the negative feelings you have are not valid. I am not here to suggest that negative comments from fellow workers are not valid, but please take the time to listen to both sides of the debate before making a rash decision on your future.

If you choose to read some of the information that the company and the union have supplied, and still wish to vote NO, then great, you read the info, and chose to make an educated choice.

Who created the contract on offer ?
I keep hearing comments like Management is trying to screw us, and they are offering us a rip off contract etc, but the funny thing is that management had nothing to do with the current contract on offer. Management told the union what cash amount it wanted to save, and left it up to the union to figure out the best way to save it. The union did what it felt was best, and is offering it to the flight attendants.

What do you want to achieve ?
If you are planning on voting NO, have a think about why you are voting no, and what you wish to achieve by voting no.

1) Is it your thought that if you vote no, that the company and union will improve the offer ?

2) Is it your thought that by voting no, that you will get to keep the existing contract that you have now ?

The reality is that, if you vote no, Continental will file Chapt 11.

What bankruptcy means for Continental ?
While UAL etc filed Chapt 11, and seem to operate as normal for year after year, this will not be the case for Continental. UAL had approx 3 billion in assets to borrow against and to assist in restructuring. Continental has zero assets to borrow against, and very little leverage to renegotiate. Continental will not cruise around in a long chapt 11 like UAL.

It is the opinion of many industry folks, that a bankruptcy filing for Continental is almost certain to end in Chap 7 and liquidation due to Continental's precarious leveraged position.

At this time, the truth is, Continental is still leading the US majors in the health department and does have better chance at growth, never mind survival than the rest, but only with some changes.

I recall reading about the mechanics etc at UAL rejecting the last contract offer in hope of forcing the company to improve things for them, and ultimately, they were wrong and much to the sufferance of almost every other employee group, the mechanics were hated by all. Every single employee group ended up taking a much worse cut because of this. I remember sitting there thinking, what a bunch of idiots, can they not see what they are doing.

Now, with more or less everyone else taking pay cuts, it is the flight attendants that sit on the edge of driving the last spike into their own pocketbooks.

The worst part of all is that most of the ones I know, have not read anything the company or union have told them, refuse to read anything, and only choose to sit and listen to what negative bitter Betty tells them in the back galley.

Be clear, I am not asking you to vote yes, I am only asking that you educate yourself with the opinions of both sides, before you make a decision that ultimately affects us all.

You can chose to call me pro company, or tell me I am brainwashed by the company etc, call me whatever you want, but please ask yourself why you refuse to read any of the information provided, yet are happy to listen to a handful of bitter Bettys.

For the sake of everyone, stop, take a deep breath, and read a little, what's the worst that can happen. If you still feel the same way, and feel that it's better for you to vote no, and most likely face much larger cuts then go ahead, but please vote after educating yourself.

I hope that 6 months from now, that all the jobs aren't lost, and you're not left sitting wondering why your career went away.

Good luck to you all

j
 
incitatus
Posts: 3379
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:29 am

I would like to add:

Bankruptcy is never a predictable process. "It's like a box of chocolates", but the only certainty is that it's bitter chocolate. Nobody would guess that United would be bankrupt for so long, and the final outcome is still unknown. Also employees will bargain from a weakened position because the court is concerned with making the company a viable one, not how much money everyone takes home at the end of the month.

Continental is a great airline. Those who flew Continental in the early 90s and in the past few years see the difference. At that time the company was, in one word, disorganized. It also has excellent hubs: Houston is well located and has a vibrant economy. Newark is the only hub around NY and that puts CO in a privileged position to serve Europe - an advantage that only now CO started to explore. I couldn't understand the reaction of some employees when CO ordered new aircraft. The timing wasn't ideal but new planes means retained or new jobs. Can't be bad!
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
Cory6188
Posts: 2710
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:29 am

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:33 am

I am glad that you are one of the few CO employees that has this viewpoint. It seems like you and Falcon84 are the only ones that are voting yes for this thing. I can only hope that it passes.
 
NWAFA
Posts: 1843
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:38 am

Once again it is so sad that airline employees have to pay for passengers to fly on them. Taking a pay cut is just that, paying for people to get on our planes.

We are the only industry where we have to cut our pay, after years of hard work...working on a budget where we can enjoy little things in life, but then people, and especially those NOT in this industry just say "you need to cut to save your company". Our society is so PRO business and NOT pro worker.

The insanity must stop!
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
Cory6188
Posts: 2710
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:29 am

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:50 am

NWAFA, I agree with you, it is sad that paycuts are necessary. But what do you propose that management should do? What haven't they already done that they can do in order to avoid this problem?
 
NWAFA
Posts: 1843
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:51 am

Keep raising fares over and over for starters. Yes they will loose "some" business to LCC's. Not as much as they will think they will. After a bit the LCC's will join in the increases.
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
Cory6188
Posts: 2710
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:29 am

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:56 am

Why should the LCC's join in the increases? WN has fuel hedged at something ridiculously low, like $26 a barrel. They don't need to increase their fares. They can sit back and still offer flights at $39 one way while the majors keep increasing their ticket prices, thereby causing everyone to book with WN.

If the majors are offering tickets at $1000 at the lowest price to fly from NYC-Florida, I don't care if that would cover their costs, but no one would buy them if B6 is still $250 per person. If B6 is making money, why would they bother to raise fares? More pax for them that are driven away from the legacy carriers.
 
ContnlEliteCMH
Posts: 1385
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:19 am

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:58 am

Quoting NWAFA (Reply 3):
Our society is so PRO business and NOT pro worker.

PRO business *is* PRO worker. Your inability to acknowledge this speaks volumes about the degree to which you view the business-worker relationship to be inherently adversarial. That is a viewpoint out of touch with the vast majority of working Americans, I assure you. It's why union membership continues to decline -- no real benefit to those of us who want to find the best way to earn a paycheck.

YOU are not the reason I fly. *I* am the reason you earn a living. I am your client, not your patron saint of paychecks. Welcome to the real world, where those of us who own and operate businesses don't have the security blanket in which you have wrapped yourself for the past several decades. My paycheck is dependent upon keeping my customers satisfied. If they cut me loose, I don't complain about them being hostile to workers. I figure out how to become more pro-business, because those same businesses pay my bills.

That said, I hope each and every CO employee with a vote, votes their conscience, whatever that may be. Even those who's consciences are not clear (or worse) still have the right to vote.

When will we, the loyal customers of Continental Airlines, know the outcome of the voting?
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
NWAFA
Posts: 1843
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:58 am

Give jetblue some time, they are starting to pay full price on the a/c. Fuel is getting them too. It will be interesting to see how they do for 2005.
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
777gk
Posts: 1488
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2000 3:04 am

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:15 am

The pro-worker society is called socialism. It is a flawed philosophy which has essentially been wiped out save for a few remaining footholds.

The market dictates our pay, and nothing else. Anyone who cannot grasp that fact is in a state of naivete and should refrain from making any further comments until an understanding of basic capitalism is acquired.

The comments of some users on the forum, and in this thread, leave me dumbfounded. It's not 1998 anymore. The market is dramatically different, and it demands that we adjust our pay and benefits as a function of said change.

The pilot groups, while vehemently opposed to the package when first proposed, have warmed up to it significantly. Our demonstration produced the desired result, and I am confident that most issues have been ironed out to a point where we will be able to shake hands on this deal by the end of the month.

Unfortunately, it seems now that our least-educated unionized group, as a whole (hate to break it to you, but these are facts, people) will have the collective balls to hold the entire company back with a "no" vote.

There's no two ways about it. If we do not ratify the agreements, it's over.
 
flyabunch
Posts: 445
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:42 am

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:19 am

I mentioned yesterday in another thread that I have seen a significant increase in ticket prices this year over last. I have also seen a lot more business people traveling. I am a CO Platinum Elite and I have 24 segments already this year. The flights are packed. I realize that there are probably a lot of cheap fares but I am also sure that there must be a significant improvement in cash flow what with the increase in business travel.

Airlines are victims of their own business strategies, not mine. They have chosen to try and compete with products that are way to similar to each other. Recent cutbacks in service have made this situation even more pronounced.

I chose to switch to CO several years ago because of the perceived difference in their product. I am very glad that I did. However, as time goes by, I see CO heading in the direction of the other legacy carriers towards a generic unappealing product. I hope I am wrong. I pay a higher price on CO than I would on some other carrier on almost every trip I take. Not a lot more, but some. I do so for the experience, the convenience and the way I am treated. If that goes away, what reason do I have to remain loyal? Not much.

The product must be different in order for a customer to perceive a value. I sell a product that is more expensive than my closest rivals. I have to convince my customers that it is worth it. When I can't, they buy on price; exactly what airline customers are doing now.

And, don't hit me with the argument that air travelers just buy on price. I know about the casual traveler. But, business travel is coming back. As long as airlines don't "screw" the deep pockets again this time around, they have a chance to grow again with the uptick in the economy.

Mike
 
ANNOYEDFA
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:16 am

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:23 am

I've read I don't like and these bitter betty's are doing lot's of no talking in the galley. Without a snap back and back pay for all the year's we have to operate under a newly amended contract I won't vote yes. If these two simple thing's were in the proposal like I suggested I would vote yes in a heartbeat with no problem. They are not and the proposal is not to my liking. So I do have the right to vote. Eventually when the company starts making money again are we once again not to see any part of the money being mad?
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
NWAFA
Posts: 1843
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:23 am

777gk,

It is just too bad that the economy hasn't adjusted the cost of things. Homes are more. Food is more. We KNOW gas is more. Electricity is more. Clothing is more. Education is more. Health care is sky high. Personal products are more. Toilet paper is more. Cleaning products are more. Water is more. Every thing is more, yet the airline employees are not allowed to more.

The only thing that is NOT more today is the price of an airline ticket.
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
Cory6188
Posts: 2710
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:29 am

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:47 am

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 11):
I've read I don't like and these bitter betty's are doing lot's of no talking in the galley.

I'm sorry, AnnoyedFA, but I don't totally understand the first sentence of your post. I think you left out a word or two there...

Anyway, if you don't like the agreements, take it up with the union. They were the ones that came up with it, not management. CO management simply said to make cuts totaling a certain amount, and the F/A union decided how to do it. If you don't like it, tell the union, not management.
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:15 am

While I absolutely agree that a no-vote will cause far more damage than a yes-vote ever could - after all, no-one is forcing the unions to forever give up the right to ask for pay-increases, I really love this comment that's been repeated quite a few times on this thread:

If you don't like it, tell the union, not management.

Honestly, folks, it's not just an issue for talking with the unions, it is absolutely also an issue for talking with the management - denying that is like having a group of 10 people, giving one a loaded gun and forcing him to shoot one of the 9 others in his group, and, afterwards, claiming "I only provided the gun, but it's not my fault that he shot someone with it".

Management gave the numbers, saying what must be achieved - the unions worked out how to distribute the cuts.

It's never fun to give up something you've worked long and hard for - and, believe me, I, unfortunately, know the feeling quite well - but giving up a part of what you've achieved to keep the bigger part - your job - is the better choice.

The other option is being out of a job.

And after having that "pleasure" twice last year (and because of my specific situation I had absolutely no unemployment benefits that I could have applied for), I know what my choice would be.

In closing, let me say this: don't let your grudges against some of the decisions that your management has taken maneuver you into a situation you'll regret - because once CO has to file for Chapter 11, it's only going to get worse.

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
ContnlEliteCMH
Posts: 1385
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:19 am

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:15 am

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 10):
I mentioned yesterday in another thread that I have seen a significant increase in ticket prices this year over last.

I have seen this as well. The price of my round trips between CMH and ATL for the first three months of this year, all on CO, is significantly higher than the same round trips were the final three months of last year, all on CO. Right now, I'm paying 15 cents per ASM, and that figure goes up for the tickets already booked in April. My guess is that the ATL routes are highly profitable for CO, given what they are charging, and how full the flights seem to be.

But this is anecdotal only. Without real figures, we can't know.
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
vegas005
Posts: 316
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:25 am

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:32 am

The remarkable thing here is that almost 25 years after deregulation the legacy carriers are still using absurd fare rules (with 8 to 10 major changes per day ... $$$$$ to maintain), paying pilots like they are God, paying management like they are above God (hundreds of VP's), and on and on and on. CO is headed the Eastern Airlines route (it was CO's sister company) along with all the other legacy carriers....if, the employees and the management don't come to grips with reality. In the end, who gives a damn? Pan Am ... gone, Eastern...gone, TWA ... gone, ... looks like it is time for another round of legacy carriers to bite the dust.
 
AASTEW
Posts: 418
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 10:47 am

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:50 am

NWAFA, I agree with you so much. Raise the fares.

And for all of you NON-AIRLINE EMPLOYEES, you don't have much to add until you have worn our shoes for just one trip.

And for the UNION HATERS, please explain to me why Southwest is very heavily unionized with good contracts for all work groups on it's property, but yet is reporting major profits?
 
NWAFA
Posts: 1843
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:52 am

AASTEW,

So many are just saying "take the pay cut or loose the job"...too bad the cost of living doesn't come down. All the non-airline people are just going on and on and do not think that we have to pay for life also. Its a total joke on their part. They are only looking at the corporation side and not the human side.
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18204
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:54 am

"Our society is so PRO business and NOT pro worker.
"

There is NO NEED for the worker if there is no business. This is not a chicken/egg situation. Without the business there is no worker.

"And for the UNION HATERS, please explain to me why Southwest is very heavily unionized with good contracts for all work groups on it's property, but yet is reporting major profits?"

Because it's hedged to the hilt and without said hedge would have lost tens of millions of dollars.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
avek00
Posts: 3254
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:56 am

"And for the UNION HATERS, please explain to me why Southwest is very heavily unionized with good contracts for all work groups on it's property, but yet is reporting major profits?"

I'm certainly not a union hater, but the reason why WN is reporting profits *right now* has little to do with its labor contracts - WN is making money because its management set up long-term fuel hedging when fuel prices were very low. If WN was exposed to market fuel prices like CO, it too would go to its unions hat-in-hand for concessions.
Live life to the fullest.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18204
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:00 am

"paying management like they are above God (hundreds of VP's), "

What airline do you work for??? Most management I know is earning less than the cockpit crews and sometimes less than senior flight attendants. And management isn't working 80 hours a month like the crews--they're often working 80 hours A WEEK.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18204
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:04 am

" Without a snap back and back pay for all the year's we have to operate under a newly amended contract I won't vote yes"

So you'll only vote yes if the airline inserts a clause that is financial hari kari? It's this type of thinking that has gotten most carriers to the point where they are today, having to ask for monumental cutbacks.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
NWAFA
Posts: 1843
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:10 am

Maverick,

Don't even go there with the "only 80 hours per month". That is ONLY 80 hours AFTER the breaks are relased. It is not the other 80 hours that we are NOT being paid for. Its not the other 40 hours that we are away from home for. Its not the other time we have to go for training and not get paid for.

yea I get paid 80 hours of pay, but I work more than what you WANT to think!
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
AASTEW
Posts: 418
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 10:47 am

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:12 am

Please don't compare 80 hours between management and flight crews...you don't have a clue. It's a big difference. For flight crews that is block to block time!

AASTEW

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
And management isn't working 80 hours a month like the crews--they're often working 80 hours A WEEK.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18204
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:12 am

"yea I get paid 80 hours of pay, but I work more than what you WANT to think!"

I'm well aware but it's nowhere near what a lot of management works.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18204
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:14 am

"you don't have a clue"

You don't know me from Adam so I suggest you don't assume things about me.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
NWAFA
Posts: 1843
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:14 am

Most of the managers I know and deal with work no more than 8-9 hour work days.
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
Lono
Posts: 1136
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 5:47 pm

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:16 am

NWAFA"

"breaks are released..."

A/C have brakes..... stops the A/C

F/A's have breaks... stops customer service
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
 
co7772wuh
Posts: 381
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 7:13 am

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:06 am

I have nothing but good things to say about CO's service and a/c . And hope very much things work out for the company as well as the employees !

Unfortunatly , it seems that the old legacy carriers are getting clobbered by the smaller , more simplistic LCCs . These new LCCs I don't believe have to pay penesion benefits or to the extent that the legacy carriers have to since they are so new , hense cheaper fares .

I am not an aviation buff so please foregive me for my ignorance . However , 9/11 put a real hurting on the majors but seemed to have helped the LCCs . 9/11 appears to have changed the ballgame !

Did the United airlines sickout do anything positive for the company and/or the employees ?

Best of Luck
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:20 am

Quoting AASTEW (Reply 17):
And for the UNION HATERS, please explain to me why Southwest is very heavily unionized with good contracts for all work groups on it's property, but yet is reporting major profits?

1) Fuel is hedged.
2) Flight attendants clean planes.
3) No meals.
4) No IFE.
5) Simple reservation system.
6) Thousands and thousands of tiny little things, like no logo on the garbage bags.

And the list continues. Number two is a biggie. How many cleaning employees do the majors hire?

AAndrew
 
globaldude
Posts: 173
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 1:10 am

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:52 am

Well, saying that managment gave the numbers and the union found the savings is not all correct.

The union did have to negotiate, as this is a collective bargaining procedure. there were sticking points that the company would not negotiate, no matter the cost savings....such as speaker staffing, speaker/senior over-rides. If dire straight are at hand...make the cuts across the board fairly. This T/A is a product of mgmt and union collaboration and is TOO long and not to most of our liking. I know of no one voting yes....

We will see on the March 30....
 
Lockheed1011
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:04 pm

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 6:39 am

Continental has a great fleet and excellent workers. I use to be one!  Smile

I am not saying to vote "Yes or NO". I just hope that Continental stays in business. I hate every time any airline goes down. Me personally use to fly Eastern Airlines all the time out of SJU on the beautiful L1011. After Eastern went down I started flying SJU-JFK TWA L1011, also went down.
I still have my OnePass account number from back 1981, I'll hate to loose that last piece of Eastern Airlines I still have, since my old card has both Continental and Eastern Logo on it.

When you vote, listen to your heart and no one else especially from another airline. They are dying to get IAH and EWR Hubs!  Wink

I wish the best to Continental and its excellent work force.

Good luck!  Wink
 
artsyman
Topic Author
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:18 am

AnnoyedFA wrote...
Eventually when the company starts making money again are we once again not to see any part of the money being mad?
***

Well, where does profit sharing fit into that comment. Profit sharing checks over the years have been pretty good, and with the new contract, the profit sharing % increases significantly, and should the company turn a profit (which is ultimately the point) you will more than make up for what small benefit cuts that you take.

For those who do not know, and have not seen the package on offer, there is a 0 dollar pay cut on offer (yes, not 1% of a base pay cut). There are some benefit cuts to things like how we accumulate sick pay, and holiday pay, but really it is a productivity based contract where in, if you work hard, and are not the type that calls in sick all the time, this contract will cause little harm to you.

American, UAL etc all took large pay cuts, the Continental contract on offer (should it pass) works out to be about 4.7% for our house, but could be as bad as about 7% for those who call in sick lots.

So, annoyedFA, we have already addressed your getting more money again if things turn around, but being rewarded for all your years of work is (as 777gk stated above), is simple naivete.

Whatever your friends are telling you, if you vote NO, then the game is over.
 
flyabunch
Posts: 445
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:42 am

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:27 am

Just a quick word on the legacy fare structure issue. It is to me, the biggest stumbling block to creating a positive travel experience. Everytime I book a ticket, I am thinking "am I too early, am I too late". It used to be that we were told by travel agents that fares went up up up as the flight date gets near.

Now that I am booking all my own stuff on line I find that it is really an inverted bell curve. Prices start high, go down if they are not selling fast enough, and then go back up as the seats sell.

I would rather see a system like WN and HP use where the prices are all easy to understand and up front. Low to high as the plane fills. Keep the number of levels to about 6.

Sorry to diverge but I always get going when we talk about airlines mucking up there own fates using outdated pricing and outdated labor policies.

How loyal can an FA be when they are not even being paid until the door shuts? The first time that was explained to me by a flight attendant, I was flabbergasted. No wonder there is an adversarial relationship. I would be willing to bet that an FA didn't think up that little gem. Sounds more like a Frank Lorenzo trick to me.
 
FlyHoss
Posts: 534
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:20 pm

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:35 am

Maverick,
You're WAY off base suggesting that flight crews only work 80 hours a month. I feel lucky if my total duty (on duty, at work time) is less than 4 to 1. That is, if I fly 80 hours, I generally work 320 hours per month. Part of the reason hourly pay rates are high are to compensate for that unpaid (other) duty time.
There's an old saying amongst crews that "I only wish I had half the time off and half the pay that other people think I do."
It can be a hard job, but it is of my choosing. Understand that I'm not complaining, only attempting to explain.
A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
 
FlyHoss
Posts: 534
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:20 pm

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:38 am

By the way, Larry Kellner was quoted as saying yesterday that if the concessionary contracts are rejected, CO won't declare bankruptcy. In that event, the company will continue to negotiate contracts with larger cuts to reach their goals (as in the "ultimatum threat" from last week).
A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
 
globaldude
Posts: 173
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 1:10 am

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:38 am

artsyman,

i work a full line plus some, am not disgruntled and rarely call in sick. i am losing about 8%. good on ya man if you can work your numbers to under 5%.
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:39 am

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 34):
How loyal can an FA be when they are not even being paid until the door shuts? The first time that was explained to me by a flight attendant, I was flabbergasted. No wonder there is an adversarial relationship. I would be willing to bet that an FA didn't think up that little gem. Sounds more like a Frank Lorenzo trick to me.

It is an industry standard. The only airlines I know to pay duty-time is USA 3000. Of course, one can argue salaried flight attendants are paid for all duty time. This is never going to change.

Some flight attendants complain and complain, yet when USA 3000 had positions for 50 flight attendants, there were something like 800 applicants. That is 16 people for every open slot.

AAndrew
 
artsyman
Topic Author
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:41 am

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 34):
How loyal can an FA be when they are not even being paid until the door shuts? The first time that was explained to me by a flight attendant, I was flabbergasted. No wonder there is an adversarial relationship. I would be willing to bet that an FA didn't think up that little gem. Sounds more like a Frank Lorenzo trick to me.

This is the case at all the major carriers, not just Continental. The rate of pay when the door shuts is a lot higher than people expect however. While many of us have higher education, many airline employees do not.

For those of you who think that the flight attendants are underpaid, it is simply just not the case. If you work hard, then you get paid. The flight attandant income and out house was just under 100,000 for 2004. This is for a 16 year hire, not a 30 year hire.

AnnoyedFA, if you stick around until you max out, then I wish you all the luck in the world going out into the workplace trying to find a job that will pay you this kind of money, with all the free flights you wish for while having more than half of the month off.

J
 
NWAFA
Posts: 1843
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:49 am

Artsyman

Are you trying to say a flight Attendant is making $100,000?
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
co7772wuh
Posts: 381
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 7:13 am

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:51 am

I meet many people at my job who fly and the vast majority of them speak quite highly of CO. Most like the fact that CO have so many direct flights . So I feel CO has a great deal of potential and a lot going for them .

If you folks at CO can hold out and vote yes . That will greatly strengthen the company . Making the chances for another major A/L to go belly up much higher . Which , unfortunately needs to happen ! If and/or when that happens things should get much better for you and CO.

Times are tough now for US airlines . So CO are making same changes and ajustments accourdingly ! It's unfortunate that the employees must get a pay cut . But , it seems it's either a cut in pay or no job ?

I feel the best thing for you folks at CO to do is stick together and get through this difficult time , without pulling that Sick Out like that other A/L did !

They only shot themselfs in there own foot when they pulled that stunt !   

[Edited 2005-03-20 23:58:45]

[Edited 2005-03-21 00:05:12]
 
artsyman
Topic Author
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:02 am

Quoting NWAFA (Reply 40):
Artsyman

Are you trying to say a flight Attendant is making $100,000?

I sure am, and I know plenty within CO that are making more than that. It all depends on how hard you want to work.

J
 
NWAFA
Posts: 1843
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:04 am

Your crazy! You need to put your pipe down. The average Flight Attendant is NOT making anything like that.
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
artsyman
Topic Author
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:21 am

Quoting NWAFA (Reply 44):
Your crazy! You need to put your pipe down. The average Flight Attendant is NOT making anything like that.

My point is, if, and it is a big IF, they stay around long enough to acquire some seniority, and the pay and schedules that come with them, then they too will make that sort of money. I am not even refering to the senior mama flight attendants with 30+ years.

As far as the pipe smoking, I know what paychecks come into our house, I see the W2 forms, I know what we make.

AnnoyedFA from their own comments was about a 6 year hire, which in reality has them either on reserve, or just free of it, and sure, they will not be making as much, but as with many companies, you get pay increases per year with your contract (this does not change with the new contract, pay increases per year still happen) until you max out (which at the moment is 15 years seniority)

There are many other ways to make more, pick up extra trips, learn a language etc.

The point is, I challenge them to go out into the workplace now, and find more money, better benefits, better lifestyle, free flights, time off...

Sure it is easy for me to spout out about 16 year hire paychecks, but the reality is, if the rest of them put in the time, then they will be in the same boat.

Even annoyedFA (assuming they are not on reserve) can pick up extra trips and make more money.

I know 10 year hires that are not that far behind us on the W2 forms, so this is not all tied to seniority.

It is simple, the more you work, the more you earn.
 
Simong
Posts: 97
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:42 pm

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:51 am

Artsyman is right ........ if those Flight Attendants would just clean up their act a little and work ..... huuummmmmm...... 30 hours a day minimum, quit their bitchin and adopt a better attitude then they can join the ranks of the thousands of other flight attendants that regularly earn over 100,000 a year!

What kind of drugs is this guy on ?
BA all the way !!!
 
fetheroleather
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:27 am

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:10 am

No doubt you can make good money if youve got the seniority to hold the highest productivity trips.At CAL ther is no cap on the hrs you can fly per month, you just cant have less than 8 days off in a month and cant work more than 6 days in a row. So if a topped out stew makes $50/hr and flies 160hrs a month for a total of 8grand per month, yes they can hit that 100k mark.Break that 160 hrs down though and they would have to fly 20 8hr turns,189 hr turns or 15 11hr turns.Maybe there are 2 or 3 f/a's that can or want to live on an airplane, and they have no time off.And dont even ask me what they look like!
 
globaldude
Posts: 173
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 1:10 am

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:30 am

BTW a 15 year and a 50 year FA at CAL make the same HOURLY rate. ( the top 760 or so get additional over-ride of $2.50 per hour to match the amount of speaker line-holders that are on all of CAL flights for the month)

Most TOPPED out (15years and higher) make more in the 65K range. That is flying 85 or so hours a month. 75hrs is industry standard.

Flying 120-130hrs or higher is a preference and should not be a requirement.

Artsy, are you getting the grandfathered ISM rate as well? Or so you just live in the crew room?
 
777gk
Posts: 1488
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2000 3:04 am

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:15 am

I challenge all of the CO flight attendants on this board to tell me this:

-How does voting "no" in any way improve your situation as a F/A?
-How is $800 million in future cuts better than $500 million now?

Most importantly:

-Tell me what is GOOD about a Chapter 11 filing?

I really want to hear the answers to the third one, because I have been through it twice, and would retire immediately, rather than go through it again.

A 6-year (or even a 12-year) hire would not have this experience.
 
fetheroleather
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:27 am

RE: To The Continental FA's

Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:56 am

There is nothing good about a Ch 11 filing.I believe the timeline for BK is not as dire as the company would have us believe.If the company can delay the cuts they imposed on the other work groups for a month,I feel we can tell the union to go back and tighten up a lot of loopholes in the t/a.Im not saying BK isnt a real possibility, but as fuel goes up by the minute, we can work for free and end up in BK

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos