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aerokiwi
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Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:39 am

I was out at AKL the other day dropping some family units off for their flight back to Christchurch, when I noticed in the distance 2 NZ 747s parked at the international terminal. I only noticed them because my auntie pointed out the poor state of the korus on the tails. And she was right!

The horizontal lines of the koru ended far too early, and barely extended to the start of the koru's curves. They looked quite ridiculous. How could NZ's painters muck them up so badly?

I knew one 744 had always been like this, but 2 of them?! It lookmd pretty shoddy to me. Does anyone know the story behind them? And are they going to be fixed, say, during refurbishment?
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:15 pm

I always thought they were stickers on the current livery. Some of the 744 fleet was repainted last year (ZK-NBS and ZK-NBT, possibly 1 other) and the Koru's were redone, weather they were painted or stickers I don't no but they look really nice when they are fresh and on a nice clean aircraft.

I'm sure they will be fixed sometime, hopefully when they put on the new names of the aircraft. ZK-NBU needs a repaint sometime soon.
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:02 pm

If they're stickers then surely it has been outsourced, and whatever company did the job really hashed it up. Honestly, they look appalling and amateurish, like they thought, "muh, nobody will notice".
 
777ER
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:09 pm

There is also an ATR like that
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:55 pm

I spend a fair bit of time at SYD and see many NZ A320 & B767(they are almost like buses at SYD). Personally I think it is just the new style Koru with the fade to blue horizontal lines does not weather well and the faded section really does just fade off.. looks quite scrappy sometimes.
Could also mean the 747 you saw had some work done on the rudders and the paintwork had not been repaired.

Rrgards

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aerokiwi
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 5:04 pm

True, thanks Stealth for that.

But 2 744s at the same time? I wonder if NZ even cares?
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 5:15 pm

It is nothing to do with 'shoddy' workmanship. They just haven't had the 'fade out' applied, and yes I believe it is due to the wear on that part of the livery and
not applying it until they can permanently correct it . I agree they should be redone, but to be honest there are more important things to sort out before they apply the 'fade out' to a just a few planes and although it doesn't look as good it is hardly an issue to make a song and dance about.. I dare say it will probably be completed as the aircraft concerned go in for the cabin refits.
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777ER
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:42 pm

The way the Koru is, is not the NZ painters or engineers fault, over time all paint will fade. Maybe that part of the tail is more prone to fade.
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NZ1
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:00 pm

The 2 aircraft with the worst KORU jobs are SUH and NBV. NBV has been like this since delivery, while SUH had a hydraulic leak in the rudder some time ago, which as we all know, eats through paint. When it was repaired, we elected to paint the KORU all the way to the edge of the tail, as the aircraft is leaving the fleet soon.

For your info, NBS and NBU were repainted last year. All the KORU's are decals, which I don't agree with as they peel and rip over time, especially on a moving joint, like the rudder. Our painters have attempted to paint the blue fade on a couple of planes, but haven't done a very good job of it. These will be fixed as each aircraft has it's upgrade.

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ZKSUJ
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:12 pm

777ER-I know what you mean, I saw the ATR the other day at PMR, looks crap
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:14 pm

Well of course it's not the most important thing on earth to do. If we were to follow that mantra we would drop everything and feed the straving masses.

It's just that, if the point of having a livery is to project the airline's identity to the world, then you may as well do it properly.

NZ1: Thanks for that, clears it all up. So will the koru decals be kept or is there some way of training staff with a better paint technique? It makes sense that they are replaced when the planes go in for the refit.
 
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:54 am

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 9):
777ER-I know what you mean, I saw the ATR the other day at PMR, looks crap

This is the leased ex Origin ATR, with a blue Koru. It is due to finish its lease with us in July. Temporary paintjob only.

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 10):
So will the koru decals be kept or is there some way of training staff with a better paint technique? It makes sense that they are replaced when the planes go in for the refit.

I heard that we are sticking with decals. Bad move in my mind. Hopefully the painters can affix them better so they don't rip.
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aerorobnz
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:08 am

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 10):
If we were to follow that mantra we would drop everything and feed the starving masses.

You well know that I was talking about within the company, not about something unachievable like solving world hunger. There are plenty of things within NZ that need to be continued/implimented to sustain the upward momentum experienced by NZ currently.
I rate livery after
Maintenance
Overall Profitability
Ground Crew Competence
Air Crew Competence/Safety
Good flight product
Routing Control
Effective management
Fares
Good loadings.
and a lot of other things. If any of these are not up to scratch it is far more liable to cause NZ problems than 3 aircraft out of their total fleet with a slightly
distorted livery emblem that most people won't even notice.
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777ER
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:51 am

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 11):
This is the leased ex Origin ATR, with a blue Koru. It is due to finish its lease with us in July. Temporary paintjob only.

No, the one I saw was not the ex Origin Pacific. ZK-MCX is the one I'm talking about. The Koru is placed more towards the back in stead of in the middle, compared to the rest of the fleet.


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aerokiwi
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:05 pm

Well I was trying to get my point across using the ridiculous (or is it?) but clearly not working. All the things you mentioned Aerobnz are already pretty much taken care of. If you can't manage to do anything extra outside of normal airline operations then you're not much of an airline. And surely there is somebody in charge of the livery maintenance.

I think it also goes into cultural sensitivity. NZ has worked hard to keep using the koru with Maori approval, you would think that maintaining it's appearance would fit with the whole respect thing.

And judging by that terrible example on the ATR above, someone has not been paying attention at all.
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:34 pm

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 14):
If you can't manage to do anything extra outside of normal airline operations then you're not much of an airline.

There aren't that many airlines around that are excellent right across those criteria, even if as you say they are the basics. NZ is one of the ones that seems to do well across the board. The cultural respect thing is a joke, it's essentially still the same logo, and by having it the way it is does not change the meaning of it to an insulting context. At the end of the day it is a commercial logo and you can't please all people all of the time.

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 14):
And surely there is somebody in charge of the livery maintenance.

Yes they're the same people that schedule which aircraft and when they need to have C & D check maintenance. It's a waste of perfectly good money to spend money on a paint job outside of these checks.

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 14):

And judging by that terrible example on the ATR above, someone has not been paying attention at all

They were probably trying a different way to combat wear and tear on the decals, and because of maintenance schedules won't change it until it needs doing.
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ZK-NBT
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:55 pm

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 8):
For your info, NBS and NBU were repainted last year.

You might work for the company and have the info on paper in front of you, but it was NBT that was repainted not NBU! NBU is filthy and certainly needs a repaint.

A recent shot of NBT looking nice and shiny, missing the pacific wave.


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Take a look at the shot below NBU is missing a fair bit of paint at the rare, this shot is 3 months old. And why does NBU on the left side of the aircraft have "BU" just behind the flap as can be seen in this shot?


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aerokiwi
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:53 pm

Actually Aerobnz, you may want to consider the different cultural value people from different cultures place on symbols. While there may be no malice involved, arsing another culture's symbol up puts you on shakey ground. It's all about respect, and not giving a hoot because "passengers wont notice/care" is no excuse.

NZ is remarkably lucky that there hasn't been any real tiff with Maori over the exploitation of their symbols for their private benefit. I would suggest they tread carefully on matters such as this. It may sound PC and all that, but comes down to respect.

Plus, the damn thing just looks stupid. That ATR is a joke.
 
jafa39
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:10 pm

Aerokiwi: Chill out mate, it's all right! The Koru on the NZ planes is stylised and is a representation not an exploitation and anyway, you get ferns in other countries too, all this PC stuff over a plant! No one owns the plants, they grow wherever they feel like it. Personally I would rather the blokes in the big shed just made sure the plane stayed in the air.
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monteycarlos
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:35 pm

As to the bad state of the Koru... I'm not sure. However the Air New Zealand tail is one of my absolute favourite along with the Garuda tail!


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The tails in that photo don't look too good but this one does!!


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Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 17):
It may sound PC and all that, but comes down to respect.

I think you may need to calm down a little. I can think of no more renowned symbol of New Zealand than the Koru of Air New Zealand! Things could be a lot worse... Imagine if Air New Zealand treated their planes like AF? Then you'd really be complaining!
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NZ1
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:58 pm

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 16):
You might work for the company and have the info on paper in front of you, but it was NBT that was repainted not NBU! NBU is filthy and certainly needs a repaint.

Sorry pal, but I am right, NBU WAS repainted last year. Why do you think the Pacific Wave is missing????? Because of the corrosion caused by the overseas painters when they applied the decals. We had a hell of a job removing the corrosion, and knife marks. The wave was left off to allow this work to be done over several 'A' checks, and is being applied at the end of it's current 'C' check.

I have no idea why the letters BU were applied aft of the I/B flaps, but I can find out for you if you like.

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777ER
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:01 pm

NZ wouldn't use the Koru without full maori permission. NZ have used the Koru since NAC and TE merged to form Air NZ. The Koru would be a registered Trade mark of NZ
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jafa39
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:48 am

Are you sure? last time i saw NBU (this year) it had the wave still in place, apart from the bits missing at the bottom on the right-hand side.

I emigrated on NBU and take a special interest. Correct me if I am wrong.
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aerokiwi
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:00 am

I assure you I am perfectly calm. But as usual, people don't recognise the importance of symbols to other cultures.

This is not PC in the slightest, simply a matter of showing a bit of respect. Everyone brings out the "Gee I hope they just keep the plane in the air" argument, but if you're going to go that way then what's the point of branding at all? You may as well just keep the plane white with Air NZ titles and nothing else. Essentially, the "millions of other more important things to do" argument makes a livery and brand a peripheral and secondary thought for airlines. I think the marketing types might disagree.

Yes the ferns do grow where they like. But this particular representation of it is distinctly Maori in origin, therefore, it should be respected. Why is that so difficult to digest?

Think of it this way - if we had the New Zealand flag on the tail and half the stars were missing because of a painting muck up, and the airline has been flying the plane in that manner for several years you'd probably be a little peeved. I know I would. Same goes for the koru - respect it.
 
jafa39
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:14 am

Hey dude, I DO respect the Koru and all it stands for but your claim to being calm about this just isn't getting across!

The Maori representation of the Koru doesn't have defined dimensions or proportions, making it shorter by the tail is no more or less disrespectful than you calling a group of individuals a "Family unit" walk your talk and get down off it mate.
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aerokiwi
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:45 am

"Walk your talk and get down off it mate"

Eh? Off what? My high horse I assume. An expected reaction.

Agreed, the koru does not have defined dimensions, but NZ has implied it does by using a standard across its aircraft. Three of those planes aren't up to that standard, with one of them being flown as such for several years. Either somebody doesn't do their job or the airline doesn't care. Which is better?

And there's the simple fact that it just looks stupid and I wanted to know when it would be fixed. NZ1 has answered that with regard to the 744s, but that ATR is a joke. Leaving it in such bad shape (as they have the 744 for sooo many years now) suggests a lack of care by the airline and, in turn, a lack of respect.

Again, I remain calm. Funny because the reaction to my question re. the poor state of the korus has been one exclamation mark after another.
 
TG992
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:16 pm

As someone who works within the company, I can assure you that all airline staff absolutely revere the koru - you should see the book of guidelines on when it can and can't be used! (ever wondered why the koru logo isn't used on carpet?)

Unfortunately, in the real world operational reality ocasionally forces compromise. This is one of those cases.
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jafa39
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:05 pm

Aerokiwi. Are you Tangata Whenua?
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aerorobnz
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:52 pm

Quoting TG992 (Reply 26):
As someone who works within the company, I can assure you that all airline staff absolutely revere the koru - you should see the book of guidelines on when it can and can't be used! (ever wondered why the koru logo isn't used on carpet?)

Yep, I back you up fully on that. In my experience it has always only ever been used appropriately. I look forward to reading the company guidelines and putting it into practise. Re:The Carpet thing - that reminds me of the old terminals before the renovations. I'm sure they used to have Koru carpet in the Koru lounges and First class check in. It must have been changed after that.

Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 27):
Are you Tangata Whenua?

I'm 'Tangata Whenua - People of the land'. I was born here, and am 6 generation kiwi... I take it you mean "Are you of Maori descent?" otherwise you would be referring to anyone who has been here for more than 3 generations.
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ZK-NBT
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:04 pm

NZ1, it is NBT that has the Pacific Wave missing! Or is that what you meant?

NBT is nice and shiny, whereas NBU isn't. Anyway, are the other 744's going to get a repaint after the Interior upgrade? Would have the whole fleet looking great then!

Don't worry about finding out about the additional NBU on the fuselage.
 
jafa39
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:56 pm

Quoting Aerorobnz (Reply 28):
I'm 'Tangata Whenua - People of the land'. I was born here, and am 6 generation kiwi... I take it you mean "Are you of Maori descent?" otherwise you would be referring to anyone who has been here for more than 3 generations.

Sorry Aero, didn't mean to make that error, I work in an industry where being respectful to Maori is important and I had been told not use "Maori" but "Tanagata Whenua". I appreciate the info as I am the lowest of the low....... a Pom from Auckland! and need all the mana I can get.  Smile
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RichardJF
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:24 pm

So how much did respect did the Maori show the Morioiri who were in New Zealand before the Maori. I believe it was before talk of cultural sensitivity.
Quite naturally they ate them.
 
NZ747
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RE: Why Is NZ's Koru In Such Bad Shape?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:47 pm

ZK-NBT is correct, NBU hasn't been repainted recently.

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 20):
I have no idea why the letters BU were applied aft of the I/B flaps, but I can find out for you if you like.

Early 2002, after the flap incident. It was put there to basically say "hey make sure you check this one again, she's a trouble maker"

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