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petazulu
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Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:40 pm

Maybe I have been watching too much TV, but I was curious as to any unusual aircraft movements in the coming days near Rome. I would imagine all commercial flights will be packed. I also know that Bush is supposed to go to the funeral. It just seems like a lot of VIP's, cardinals, and other people need to get to Rome pretty quick. I don't think the church has any private aircraft.

If any of you Italians or others pick up some unusual flight activity, let us know. I really loved that man and am honored to have met him serveral times in Rome, Chesthova (Poland), Denver, and Santiago (Spain). A real inspiration.
 
FCKC
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:51 am

God bless JP2.

Surely all VIP , governments planes which are on the planet , will be at Rome for the Pope funeral.I imagine all heads of states of all countries will be there this day.It can't be another way.
 
FFlyer
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:01 am

I don't know. The Pope institution is not such a big deal in e.g. protestant countries. You know, it represents the stagnant principles in birth control, abortion, sex before marriage (lack of that) etc. So, not "all" the heads of states would be there.

However, I can imagine that Alitalia gets some additional and much needed high-paying passengers. But that is, of course, only a small relief for them.

A positive thing about Italy today; neither one of the Ferraris got any points in the Bahrain F-1 Grand Prix!!!
 
planespotting
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:22 am

The US president does not normally attend the papal funeral, and i haven't heard anything different yet...if someone else has heard if he has then it wouldn't suprise me. but the pope is not a head of state persee, and there really is no requirement for most heads of state to attend. however i imagine because of this popes worldly notoriety, his funeral will be attended by more than the normal cadre of catholic countries heads of state (spain, italy, ireland, etc...).

I believe cardinals take commercial flights, unless they have personal dealings with some corporation or something that may lend them their jet for free or something.
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spinkid
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:25 am

According to U.S. Media president Bush will be attending the pope's funeral.
 
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spinkid
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:31 am

I've been wondering. Media reports that possibly 2 million people will be going to Rome for the funeral. Will there be extra commercial sections, charters, etc.?
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:48 am

I checked with Kayak on flights two days ago. MSP-FCO R/T for Apr 4 with return on Apr 18 was $2395 two days ago. Today it's $701. Weird?

Mark
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petazulu
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:51 am

You would think that there will be a tremndous crush of people trying to get to Rome for the funeral. The Pope is the head of the Vatican (Holy See). As such, he is a head of state. Additionally, he was a critical factor during the fall of the Iron Curtain (some of you may be too young to remember that). Would Bush be flying into Rome's airport, or would he land at a military base? While no one would expect all the leader to be in attendance, surely the heads of any European, Latin American, North American, Korean and many African countries will be there.

What is Rome's airport layout? I know there is Fumincino and a smaller one used by LCC's. Am I correct? If there is an Italian flight tracker- I'll bet it would be interesting viewing over the next week.

This thread is not designed to have people talk about their opposition/support of Catholic doctrine- plase do not turn it into that! I just wanted a place for all of us to talk about unusual movements in/out of Rome.
 
N1120A
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:58 am

Quoting Petazulu (Reply 7):
and a smaller one used by LCC's.

Ciampino
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NceBoy
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:00 am

Well, Paul Martin (Canada's PM) said he will be there, so said Jacques Chirac.
So we might see both airplane at some point at FCO, along with AF1 !
coz I'm leaving on a jetplane !
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:37 am

I would think that Air Force 1 and just about every other head of state airplane would fly into Aviano AB, where better security could be maintaned. That would also reduce delays a head of state aircraft would cause at FCO.

FCO is going to be busy enough, without those airplanes.

Pope John Paul II had a nack of getting along with just about everyone. So I would also expect someone like President Putin, of Russia to attand this state funeral. The Pope was respected by a lot more people than just those who are Catholic.

The whole world lost, what I consider, the greatest leader of all time, next to his boss.

Rest in peace, my brother, John Paul.
 
trident2e
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:47 am

Quoting FFlyer (Reply 2):
I don't know. The Pope institution is not such a big deal in e.g. protestant countries. You know, it represents the stagnant principles in birth control, abortion, sex before marriage (lack of that) etc. So, not "all" the heads of states would be there.

Clearly your knowledge of current affairs is somewhat limited. The United Kingdom is a Protestant country but will send a senior Government representative to the funeral.
 
airbusA346
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:49 am

Quoting FFlyer (Reply 2):
A positive thing about Italy today; neither one of the Ferraris got any points in the Bahrain F-1 Grand Prix!!!

You have gone off the subject.

And stop being ANTI-FERRARI.


Tom.
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TACAA320
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:04 am

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 3):
The US president does not normally attend the papal funeral

Maybe Condi Rice will be attending the funeral.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:06 am

Quoting Spinkid (Reply 5):
Will there be extra commercial sections, charters, etc.?

It looks like Alitalia is adding a second flight from JFK to FCO tonight. In addition to AZ611 at 9:15pm, there's another 777 departing at 8:30pm as AZ6611. It's showing up in the timetables section at travelocity.com as operating today only so far.
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:11 am

Longterm plans in the UK were for the Prince of Wales, as heir to the throne, to attend the Papal funeral. Depending on the day chosen this may not be the case, with HRH's impending wedding on Friday. In that case I'd imagine the Duke of York might attend in his place.

Prime Minister Tony Blair is also expected to attend. It's even possible the Archbishop of Canterbury (Head of the Anglican Church) and the Moderater of the Church of Scotland (Head of the Scottish Church) will attend, as their predecessors attended John Paul II's inauguration back in 1978.

I'd imagine the Royal Flight BAe 146-100s would be used to convey the Prime Minister and Royal Family representative, either together or separately.

The Queen would not attend as it is convention for the Monarch not to attend funerals unless it is of a family member. The only exception I can think of was Sir Winston Churchill's funeral back in 1965 as a mark of the Queen's respect for Britain's wartime leader - and her first Prime Minister. Plus, the Queen is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England.
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avek00
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:15 am

I'd expect the VIP aircraft to use some mix of CIA and FCO. The bigwig countries will likely land at FCO, while the little guys get CIA.
Live life to the fullest.
 
B4REAL
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:18 am

I would at least expect Bill Clinton or George H-W Bush to attend, maybe also Condi Rice.
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IDAWA
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:23 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
I would think that Air Force 1 and just about every other head of state airplane would fly into Aviano AB, where better security could be maintaned. That

I think that AF1 will be flying to Pratica di Mare AFB, nearer to Rome.

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StarCruiser
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:27 am

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 3):
The US president does not normally attend the papal funeral, and i haven't heard anything different yet...if someone else has heard if he has then it wouldn't surprise me. but the pope is not a head of state persee, and there really is no requirement for most heads of state to attend. however i imagine because of this popes worldly notoriety, his funeral will be attended by more than the normal cadre of catholic countries heads of state (spain, italy, ireland, etc...).

When the Concordat with Italy was signed in 1929 the Holy See became a country in its own right. Granted, it is tiny, but it is sovereign. As such the pope is an earthly ruler as well as a spiritual one. Remember, there are over one billion Catholics in the world, one-sixth of our globe's population.

The Vatican has diplomatic relations with many countries in the world including the USA, which opened full diplomatic relations with the Holy See under President Ronald Reagan. At that time the papal representative's Office of the Apostolic Delegate in Washington became the Office of the Pro-nuncio (or ambassador). The Holy See also belongs to the United Nations and popes have addressed the General Assembly as other world rulers have.

While the US President normally does not attend such funerals, I have heard on CNN that both President George W. and Laura Bush plan to attend personally but so far a specific time and date for the funeral has not yet been announced. Likewise, I would expect that the living former presidents might do so as well. Since the pope was elected in 1978, five presidents knew and worked with him: Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush and Bill Clinton in addition to the current President Bush.

While someone normally represents Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, the wedding of Prince Charles to Camilla Parker-Bowles on Friday is problematical if the funeral is held on that day, a distinct possibility. It would also preclude the attendance of either the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr. Rowan Williams, head of the Worldwide Anglican Communion, and Prime Minister Tony Blair, both of whom have a prior commitment to attend the Church Blessing of Charles and Camilla's wedding. The matter is rather delicate in the United Kingdom as the wedding, if held on Friday as scheduled, falls in the middle of the nine day period of mourning, and the UK Catholic population is rather significant and could be offended. So far, The Sunday Times reports no changes in the date of the wedding will occur. Vatican law specifies that the funeral must take place in the Wednesday to Friday time frame. Stay tuned.

I would imagine we all will be surprised at the number of world leaders who will attend the funeral, whether or not they come from countries with significant Catholic populations. I would not be at all surprised if Russian President Vladimir Putin would attend, and given the pope's personal relationship with former Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev, he may attend. I likewise believe there will be significant representation from Islamic countries and Israel.
 
N1120A
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:49 am

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 15):
Archbishop of Canterbury (Head of the Anglican Church)

Well, aside from HRH herself

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 16):
I'd expect the VIP aircraft to use some mix of CIA and FCO. The bigwig countries will likely land at FCO, while the little guys get CIA.

I think it would depend on what kind of aircraft they brought in, or if they flew scheduled. Also, high security people are likely to go to Air Force Bases

Quoting B4real (Reply 17):
I would at least expect Bill Clinton or George H-W Bush to attend, maybe also Condi Rice.

If the President of the US attends, it is unlikely the Secretary of State will do the same. Also, former Presidents attend at their will and not as US diplomats

Quoting StarCruiser (Reply 19):
Ronald Reagan,

Probably not
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simo82
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:02 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
I would think that Air Force 1 and just about every other head of state airplane would fly into Aviano AB, where better security could be maintaned. That would also reduce delays a head of state aircraft would cause at FCO.

Don't really think that making the head of state land in Aviano base would be a really smart move...Aviano is more than 600 Km from Roma and taking the head of state from Aviano to Roma would cause real hard time to the security agents...

Italian news report that more than 200 head of state and officials are aspect in Roma to attend to the Papal Funeral. Its been decided that CIA airport will be completely closed to commercial flights if necessary also FCO could be closed, and also the military base of Pratica di Mare will be used by the State officials and head of state as it is one of the safest base in the Roma Area.

Flight space over Roma will be completely closed to non authorized A/C.
Italian airforce ( with F-16 MB 339 and HH3F ) will be flying over all Italy to prevent hijacking-terrorist attacks, a NATO Awacs will also be used to provide radar support.


Link ( Italian ) : < http://www.repubblica.it/2005/d/sezi.../esteri/papa10/papa10/papa10.html>


GRAZIE!! GIOVANNI PAOLO II
REST IN PEACE !!


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FlyCaledonian
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:29 am

N1120A, when I was calling the Archbishop of Canterbury head of the Anglican Church I was meaning in his position as Head of the Anglican Communion which recognises the Archbishop as leader of the World's Anglicans. This is not to say that Dr Williams enjoys the same position among Anglicans as the Pope does with Catholics as the Anglican Church is not centralised, with individual leaders in each country around the world. Simply, Dr Williams is regarded as pre-eminent. At the end of my post I refer to the fact that the actual head of the Church of England is Her Majesty the Queen, who is its Supreme Governor
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
baw716
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:34 am

There are a lot of flights from North America to Europe that have filled up in the past 24 hours, the flights to Rome are jammed. Alitalia is adding capacity to aid in some of the demand.

As to the issue of the cardinals, yes they do travel via commercial airlines. Alitalia is the official airline of the Vatican, so many cardinals in the USA come to New York and then take the Alitalia flight to Rome. Since most of the world except the South Pacific and the deep south in Africa and SE Asia are no longer served by AZ, the cardinals will have to arrive at Rome by some other means, or if there are enough of them, the vatican will arrange a special charter with AZ to go down and retrieve them at a special location.

Cardinals are always given VIP status and special considerations when traveling on board Alitalia. In fact, one of the requirements (which is a blessing in most cases) of the job was to maintain a working relationship with the local archdiocese in the event of any movement of church envoys. Most of the time this was a genuine honor to do; sometimes not.

Peace be with you
May the grace of God look down upon you
and give you peace.

The Holy Father John Paul II is home. Let us rejoice in the knowledge that he is whole again and is vibrant and strong. Let us feel no sorrow for our loss.
For he is with God. Can there be no greater joy?

Amen
baw716
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iluv747400
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:59 am

Quoting StarCruiser (Reply 19):
The Holy See also belongs to the United Nations and popes have addressed the General Assembly as other world rulers have.

While the US President normally does not attend such funerals, I have heard on CNN that both President George W. and Laura Bush plan to attend personally but so far a specific time and date for the funeral has not yet been announced.

The Holy See is not a member of the United Nations. They do have full observer status however.

I work at the State Department. I am very confident the President will be leading the American delegation for sure. Also, I believe Secretary Rice used Ciampino during her recent visit to Rome if that has any bearing on which airport Air Force One will use.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:33 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 20):
If the President of the US attends, it is unlikely the Secretary of State will do the same.

What is the precedent to base this statement? George H.W. Bush attended the funeral of Emperor Hirohito in 1989 with his Secretary of State, James Baker, accompanying him. There have been many other examples found with a simple search.

February 23-25, 1989
George Bush
Tokyo
Attended the funeral of Emperor Hirohito. Met with: Emperor Akihito of Japan; the Kings of Belgium, Jordan, and Spain; the Presidents of Brazil, Egypt, France, West Germany, Israel, Italy, Nigeria, the Philippines, Portugal, and Zaire; and the Prime Ministers of Japan, Pakistan, Singapore, Thailand, and Turkey.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/trvl/pres/dest/12612.htm

February 23-25, 1989
James A. Baker, III
Tokyo
Accompanied President Bush to the funeral of Emperor Hirohito, and to meetings with other attending heads of state and government.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/trvl/12927.htm

Edit-fix pesky links

[Edited 2005-04-04 00:43:39]
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Starlionblue
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:37 am

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 3):
the pope is not a head of state persee

Yes he is.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
N1120A
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:42 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 25):

mmm'kay, I did not say it did not happen.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Velasco
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:22 am

With the death of John Paul I'm sure there is a lot of traffic in Heaven.

The Lord has at last opened the celestial doors to this magnificent athlete of faith.

Whenever I fly again I know now I'll be a little bit closer to John Paul and his tender words.

A Paz Esteja Contigo João Paulo - Nossa Senhora da Aparecida te Acompanhe.
Lisboa-Rio on the A340... São Pedro e São Paulo down below...
 
1world
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:07 am

I can't see any other funeral in the world that will have more importance than this one. John Paul was the peoples Pope and went to just about every part of the world.

It will be interesting to see all the official planes and security will be tight.

Quoting Velasco (Reply 28):
With the death of John Paul I'm sure there is a lot of traffic in Heaven.

The Lord has at last opened the celestial doors to this magnificent athlete of faith.

Whenever I fly again I know now I'll be a little bit closer to John Paul and his tender words.

A Paz Esteja Contigo João Paulo - Nossa Senhora da Aparecida te Acompanhe.

Very well said.
YYZ spotter
 
FFlyer
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:25 am

The Scandinavian countries will obviously only send their respective ambassadors (e.g. Finland has announced that its Ambassador to Switcherland will represent the country). So, no extra planes needed from the north. I would guess its the same with Germany, the mother country of the Lutheran Church (major opponent for the Catholic conservatism).
 
iluv747400
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:41 am

Quoting FFlyer (Reply 30):
I would guess its the same with Germany, the mother country of the Lutheran Church (major opponent for the Catholic conservatism).

Do your homework... southern Germany is quite Catholic! About a third of Germans are at least nominally Catholic.
 
beechnut
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:51 am

Overall the Catholics still make up 37% of the German population, compared to 45% Protestants and the rest undeclared. Given that there are close to 80 million people in Germany, that's a fairly signficant number of Catholics (in fact about 30 million, or roughly the population of Canada).

There are many German monasteries that are still active, for example the Ott congregation of the Benedictine Order is one of the major congregations of that order, with a young and vigorous population (I met the Abbot in 2003 and he was only 39 years old), and daughter monasteries as far away as South Korea.

I would expect that Germany will send a Cardinal or two to Rome, and that there will be representation from the government!

Canada's PM is also going; he's a practising Catholic in my parish where he has his vacation home.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:03 am

AZ 6611 is departing now and AZ611 is scheduled to depart from JFK in approximately 20 minutes.

-G
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
F9Fan
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:28 am

The Vatican is considered an independent and sovereign country. In fact, it is the smallest sovereign country in terms of land area. While not official members of the U.N., they have observer status, much like the Palestinian Authority. When the United States invaded Panama in 1989, Manuel Noriega fled to the equivalent to the Vatican's Embassy before he surrendered to U.S. military forces. They even are authorized to coin their own Euro coins (1 cent, 2 cents, 5 cents, 10 cents, 20 cents, 50 cents, 1 Euro and 2 Euros) in limited quantities, which feature a portrait of the pope on the obverse.

F9Fan
 
schipholjfk
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:41 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
The whole world lost, what I consider, the greatest leader of all time, next to his boss.

The world did loose a great leader. But the greatest leader of all time? Think again. About billion people in this world follow him. Other five billion DO NOT. There have been many great leaders in different capacities in this world over thousands of years. In addition, there are thousands of people who you do not know about but make great difference everyday in a lot of people's lives. Plus in the Western world we are hardly aware of great leaders of the past from other parts of the world. So let's not be so myposic in our view. Great leader.. yes. Of all time... no.
The fun of flying... love it !!!
 
Vikingair
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:42 am

What does all this have to do with aviation?
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:45 am

Well, Alvaro Uribe, Colombia´s president, wotn be albe to go as he is in China right now. But the 3 Colombian cardinals are already there. 2 flew Iberia to MAD and connected and the other flew AV to JFK and took a flight from there (dunno if it was DL or AZ).
 
Aviationhack
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:40 am

Seeing that other non aviation posts haven't been deleted for not being aviation related I will toss in my 2c

The last 5 years of the pope's life reminds me of the movie Weekend at Bernies. What has he done other than ignore science, and set the world back who knows how many years.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:59 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 14):
addition to AZ611 at 9:15pm, there's another 777 departing at 8:30pm as AZ6611.

Actually the added flight has nothing to do with extra traffic to Rome for the Papal funeral.
It was Saturday's JFK flight that diverted to IAD due to NY area weather. Aircraft and crew spent the night in Washington before retuning to NY on Sunday.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
StarCruiser
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:13 pm

Quoting Iluv747400 (Reply 24):
The Holy See is not a member of the United Nations. They do have full observer status however.

I stand corrected. Thank you.
 
tbear815
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:26 pm

I am sure that all necessary security precautions will be initiated. The late Pope was the survivor of an assasination attempt, so everything in Italy/The Vatican will be on the strictest alert. While not getting into any discussion about religion, the Pope was a modern man. His travels throughout the world showed how much he wanted to learn about cultures and show his concern for the many peoples he nurtured and mentored. Off subject, but there is an excellent older movie (rentable - I'm sure it will be shown on TV) called "Shoes of the Fisherman." It deals the the election of a new Pope and gives excellent detail about the procedures that take place when a Pope leaves the mortal world and the time has come to find a successor.

Regardless of anyone's religious belief, the world has lost a great man. I only hope that his legacy will live on and prosper with the leaders of our world today. May God receive him with all highest honors and everlasting love....
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:36 pm

Not that I have a darned clue as to what I am talking about with this, as I am not Catholic, but if it means anything, here's the current list of the Cardinals eligible to vote in the next election, along with their Archdiocese, according to www.catholic-pages.com:

First, the voting cardinals that represent an Archdiocese (ie. are not Rome-based):

Bergoglio, Buenos Aires, Argentina
Pell, Sydney, Australia
Schönborn, Vienna, Austria
Danneels, Mechelen-Brussels, Belgium
Terrazas Sandoval, Santa Cruz de la Sierra, Bolivia
Puljic, Vrhbosna, Bosnia
Hummes, São Paulo, Brazil
Agnelo, São Salvador da Bahia, Brazil
Falcão, Brasilia, Brazil
Scheid, Sao Sebastiao do Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Tumi, Douala, Cameroon
Ouellet, Quebec, Canada
Ambrozic, Toronto, Canada
Turcotte, Montréal, Canada
Errázuriz Ossa, Santiago de Chile, Chile
Rubiano Sáenz, Bogotá, Colombia
Etsou-Nzabi-Bamungwabi, Kinshasa, Congo
Bozanic, Zagreb, Croatia
Ortega y Alamino, San Cristóbal de la Habana, Cuba
Vlk, Prague, Czech Republic
López Rodriguez, Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic
Murphy-O'Connor, Westminster, England
Barbarin, Lyon, France
Lustiger, Paris, France
Panafieu, Marseilles, France
Sterzinsky, Berlin, Germany
Wetter, Munich und Freising, Germany
Lehmann, Mainz, Germany
Meisner, Cologne, Germany
Turkson, Cape Coast, Ghana
Quezada Toruño, Guatemala City, Guatemala
Rodríguez Maradiaga, Tegucigalpa, Honduras
Paskai, Esztergom-Budapest, Hungary
Erdö, Esztergom-Budapest, Hungary
Dias, Bombay, India
Vithayathil, Ernakulam-Angamaly of the Syro-Malabars, India
Toppo, Ranchi, India
Darmaatmadja, Jakarta, Indonesia
Connell, Dublin, Ireland
Biffi, Bologna, Italy
Cé, Venice, Italy
Tettamanzi, Milan, Italy
De Giorgi, Palermo, Italy
Martini, Milan, Italy
Ruini, Rome, Italy
Giordano, Naples, Italy
Poletto, Turin, Italy
Scola, Venice, Italy
Bertone, Genoa, Italy
Antonelli, Florence, Italy
Agré, Abidjan, Ivory Coast
Shirayanagi, Tokyo, Japan
Pujats, Riga, Latvia
Backis, Vilnius, Lithuania
Razafindratandra, Antananarivo, Madagascar
Rivera Carrera, México, Mexico
Suárez Rivera, Monterrey, Mexico
Sandoval Íñiguez, Guadalajara, Mexico
Simonis, Utrecht, Netherlands
Williams, Wellington, New Zealand
Obando Bravo, Managua, Nicaragua
Okogie, Lagos, Nigeria
Cipriani Thorne, Lima, Peru
Vidal, Cebu, Philippines
Sin, Manila, Philippines
Glemp, Warsaw, Poland
Macharski, Krakow, Poland
Policarpo, Lisbon, Portugal
O'Brien, St Andrew's and Edinburgh, Scotland
Napier, Durban, South Africa
Amigo Vallejo, Seville, Spain
Rouco Varela, Madrid, Spain
Álvarez Martínez, Toledo, Spain
Carles Gordó, Barcelona, Spain
Zubeir Wako, Khartoum, Sudan
Schwery, Sion, Switzerland
Pengo, Dar-es-Salaam, Tanzania
Kitbunchu, Bangkok, Thailand
Wamala, Kampala, Uganda
Jaworski, Lviv of the Latins, Ukraine
Husar, Lviv of the Ukrainians, Ukraine
Rigali, Philadelphia, United States
George, Chicago, United States
Egan, New York, United States
McCarrick, Washington DC, United States
Keeler, Baltimore, United States
Mahony, Los Angeles, United States
Maida, Detroit, United States
Pham Minh Mán, Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam

Now, for the Rome-based voting Cardinals:

Medina Estevez, Chile
Castrillón Hoyos, Colombia
López Trujillo, Colombia
Tauran, France
Poupard, France
Kasper, Germany
Ratzinger, Germany
Sodano, Italy
Nicora, Italy
Martino, Italy
Marchisano, Italy
Pompedda, Italy
Sepe, Italy
Sebastiani, Italy
Cacciavillan, Italy
Re, Italy
Hamao, Japan
Lozano Barragán, Mexico
Arinze, Nigeria
Grocholewski, Poland
Saraiva Martins, Portugal
Herranz, Spain
Martínez Somalo, Spain
Daoud, Syria
Stafford, United States
Szoka, United States
Baum, United States
Law, United States

The non-voting Cardinals will be listed in another post...
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:55 pm

Now, for the non-voting cardinals who are non Rome-based:

do Nascimento, Luanda, Angola
Primatesta, Córdoba, Argentina
Clancy, Sydney, Australia
Swiatek, Minsk-Mohilev, Belarus
Araújo, Belo Horizonte, Brazil
Lorscheider, Aparecida, Brazil
Arns, São Paulo, Brazil
Sales, São Sebastião do Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Vachon, Québec, Canada
González Zumárraga, Quito, Ecuador
Ghattas, Alexandria of the Copts, Egypt
Honoré, Tours, France
Pimenta, Bombay, India
Daly, Armagh, Ireland
Pappalardo, Palermo, Italy
Tonini, Ravenna-Cervia, Italy
Piovanelli, Florence, Italy
Saldarini, Turin, Italy
Canestri, Genoa, Italy
Kim Sou-hwan, Seoul, Korea
Sfeir, Antioch for Maronites, Lebanon
Margéot, Port-Louis, Mauritius
Corripio Ahumada, Mexico, Mexico
dos Santos, Maputo, Mozambique
Gulbinowicz, Wroclaw, Poland
Kozlowiecki, Lusaka, Poland
Aponte Martinez, San Juan de Puerto Rico, Puerto Rico
Taofinu'u, Samoa-Apia, Samoa
Korec, Nitra, Slovakia
Suquía Goicoechea, Madrid, Spain
Shan Kui-hsi, Kaohsiung, Taiwan
Bevilacqua, Philadelphia, United States
Pham Dình Tung, Hà Nôi, Vietnam

And, for the Rome-base Cardinals:

Mejía, Argentina
Cassidy, Australia
Stickler, Austria
Gantin, Benin
Gagnon, Canada
Spidlik, Czech Republic
Etchegaray, France
Scheffczyk, Germany
Mayer, Germany
Lourdusamy, India
Caprio, Italy
Silvestrini, Italy
Felici, Italy
Innocenti, Italy
Tucci, Italy
Monduzzi, Italy
Cheli, Italy
Antonetti, Italy
Furno, Italy
Noè, Italy
Poggi, Italy
Angelini, Italy
Laghi, Italy
Willebrands, Netherlands
Sánchez, Philippines
Deskur, Poland
Nagy, Poland
Tomko, Slovakia
Javierre Ortas, Spain
Cottier, Switzerland
Agustoni, Switzerland
Dulles, United States
Castillo Lara, Venezuela
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
tbear815
Posts: 689
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:14 pm

RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:13 pm

What is the difference between a voting and non-voting Cardinal? I thought all Cardinals were "created equal." And why are so many Rome based? I know it's off topic, but this is the first I've ever heard about a division of Cardinals.
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:15 pm

Tbear-Only Cardinals under the age of 80 are allowed to vote. Additionally, the Cardinals who are Rome-based do not answer to a specific Archdiocese, and instead are in charge of a department within the Holy See itself.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
tbear815
Posts: 689
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:14 pm

RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:35 pm

Thanks so much, SHUPirate. I didn't know that the College of Cardinals was so wide spread. I guess it's a different heirarchy than I thought. When you think of all the procedures and history guiding the Holy See in such a momentus occasion, the ramifications are daunting! Not to speak of all the things that fall into place, even to the layover of aircraft (which is of minute concern even as important as it is). I guess the cost of such an event is astronomical when all factors are taken into consideration. Regardless of cost, the paying of respect to such a man is the most important thought. Even though not a Catholic, my feelings for the man are profound. Vaya con Dios, mi Amigo!
 
SAA-SAL
Posts: 345
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2000 11:41 pm

RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:20 pm

Welcome to my R.R. list FFlyer!
SAA B747 SP, Luxavia B747 SP
 
mika
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2000 7:53 am

RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:45 pm

I can't see any other funeral in the world that will have more importance than this one. John Paul was the peoples Pope and went to just about every part of the world.

I would say that a funeral of someone that stands close to me or that i love will have 100 times the impact the funeral of the Pope has. No to be contrascending or anything of the like but a personal loss is far worse than loosing the leader of your religion.
 
fraT
Posts: 1177
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

RE: Papal Funeral/Conclave Related Air Movements

Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:56 pm

Quoting BeechNut (Reply 32):
I would expect that Germany will send a Cardinal or two to Rome, and that there will be representation from the government!

Just for your info. Every German Cardinal as well as every other Cardinal will go to Rome. Germany will be represented by it's Government. Schröder might go, I think Fischer (Secretary of State) will go for sure.

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