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Beaucaire
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KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:37 pm

Its seems a KLM flight from Amsterdam to Mexico had to return to Amsterdam while already over Canadian territory.Two of the passengers seemingly were on the US list for potential Terrorists.The flight was not supposed to land in the USA on it's way to Mexico.
Sorry it's in Dutch but this sounds absolutely ridicoulous to me..
http://www.nos.nl/nos/artikelen/2005/04/art0000200604AB.html

[Edited 2005-04-10 08:00:48]
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Brasuca
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:39 pm

 eek  Bah....
I didn't know that the US collects the list of every flight overflying its territory with the passengers name, whether landing or not there.

I wonder if the same occurs with all flights between Canada to South America.
Varig, Varig, Varig
 
kl911
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:46 pm

Pfff, The US thinks that 50% of the worlds population is a potential Terrorist.
And who's gonna pay for this? The flight was between AMS and MEX and had nothing to do with the US. This kind of stuff is really starting to make me mad.

 bomb 

KL911
 
blackknight
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:56 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 2):
Pfff, The US thinks that 50% of the worlds population is a potential Terrorist.
And who's gonna pay for this? The flight was between AMS and MEX and had nothing to do with the US. This kind of stuff is really starting to make me mad.



KL911

You must not live next to tall buildings or remember 9/11. Even though those whom died in the 9/11 attacks where mostly Americans they still where humans. The loss of life is tragic period. Because the USA is a target unlike many other countries we applaud the prevention of the loss of life. (Prevention may take many forms) It may seem silly or upsetting to others yet you need to know there are those whom will try any weak link to kill Americans. Maybe if they focused on your country you would understand?

PS American is not the only country with this level of security. Have you ever noticed armed guards at the airport? Why do you think they are there?
BK
 
mauriceb
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:57 pm

How dare they to send an aircraft back to AMS? it like youre saying ''we don't wan't those terrorists, we rather have them doing an attack in youre own country''

and if its a potential terrorist, why didn't they land the plane in the USA and handed the two over to the federal police...?
 
Brasuca
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:59 pm

KL911,

Every country is sovereign on its own regarding their air space too. I think that they consider that KL's flight could use any US airport for an eventual emergency landing, therefore a gateway for terrorists.

Nevertheless I do think that american authorities are somewhat paranoiac and exaggerative.
Varig, Varig, Varig
 
DLKAPA
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:03 pm

Quoting BlackKnight (Reply 3):
Maybe if they focused on your country you would understand?

And the flag of Bullshit is raised. Dude, I'm an American, and I can't seem to understand why this is going on. And I don't take much stock in the "no fly list" mainly because Yusaf Islam aka Cat Stevens was on the list. Ok yeah a guy who has spent his entire life devoted to bringing peace is now a terror threat...riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...

Quoting BlackKnight (Reply 3):
PS American is not the only country with this level of security. Have you ever noticed armed guards at the airport? Why do you think they are there?

Saudi Arabia also has this level of security...
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Floris
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:06 pm

For the record, because, as always, everybody starts to blame the US:

The KLM pilot wanted to divert to Canada, to get the paperwork sorted out, but Canada *also* refused to give the aircraft permission to land, after which it had no other options but to return to Amsterdam.
 
Marco
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:18 pm

Thanks for clearing it up Floris. As usual, people rush to conclusions...it seems that anti-americanism is a new fad  Yeah sure

Ok yeah a guy who has spent his entire life devoted to bringing peace is now a terror threat...riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...

hmmm...how do you even reply to that one?
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mauriceb
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:20 pm

You must not live next to tall buildings or remember 9/11. Even though those whom died in the 9/11 attacks where mostly Americans they still where humans. The loss of life is tragic period. Because the USA is a target unlike many other countries we applaud the prevention of the loss of life. (Prevention may take many forms) It may seem silly or upsetting to others yet you need to know there are those whom will try any weak link to kill Americans. Maybe if they focused on your country you would understand?


now youre talking like youre the only worthfull group, i mean we have buildings here to!

i actually think that when you return to AMS, the chance of the terrorist becoming agressif is much higher than landing somewhere in Canada and the US


For the record, because, as always, everybody starts to blame the US:

The KLM pilot wanted to divert to Canada, to get the paperwork sorted out, but Canada *also* refused to give the aircraft permission to land, after which it had no other options but to return to Amsterdam.


well oke, lets get Canada to into this Argument lol
 
SFOMEX
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:24 pm

If their final destination was MEX, could they have flown a different route outside US airspace? Maybe following the American coast until the Gulf of Mexico. I'm guessing here, maybe that route is out of range.
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Starlionblue
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:33 pm

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 9):
You must not live next to tall buildings or remember 9/11. Even though those whom died in the 9/11 attacks where mostly Americans they still where humans. The loss of life is tragic period. Because the USA is a target unlike many other countries we applaud the prevention of the loss of life. (Prevention may take many forms) It may seem silly or upsetting to others yet you need to know there are those whom will try any weak link to kill Americans. Maybe if they focused on your country you would understand?

now youre talking like youre the only worthfull group, i mean we have buildings here to!

Not to mention terrorists. And btw Europe was a victim of terrorists for decades before the US, but as soon as US territory gets attacked it's all of a sudden worthy of attention. And then you get the response all wrong. Go after the terrorists at the root (hint, not Iraq), not where they hit. Ah, the hypocrisy...

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 10):
If their final destination was MEX, could they have flown a different route outside US airspace? Maybe following the American coast until the Gulf of Mexico. I'm guessing here, maybe that route is out of range.

It may not be out of range, but the flight planners most probably didn't load enough fuel for such a route.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
mrniji
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:34 pm

Probably the keywords used by the US to identify terrorists contain Mohammed, Ali, Ahmad, Inzaman etc... maybe they scan all pax lists and see whether such names are within themm without knowing that millions of peolpes have these names..

Crazy.. I remember an AI flight being escorted from the Atlantic to the US, then taxied emotely on JFK, since they found a pax having the name of a terrorist.. of course, it was a coincidence.. poor, honest man..

this hysteria of seeing everyone as terrorist oughta stop soon, claiming a threat being eveywhere makes the world a very unsafe place..

Ridiculess story
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Mir
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:51 pm

In a hypothetical case, let's say a plane is going to overfly the US enroute to somewhere else, and because they have some person on board who sets off an alert for the US and Canada, they won't let them land. But the plane doesn't have enough fuel to return across the Atlantic. What would happen then? I guess the pilot could always declare a fuel emergency and land somewhere, but I doubt that the authorities would be happy about it at all, and some politician would probably get involved.

And yes, this is entirely ridiculous. Shame on the US, and shame on Canada too (wow, I didn't think I'd be saying that with regards to air security) for not letting the flight overfly the country. That's just stupid.

-Mir
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blackknight
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:28 pm

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 6):
And the flag of Bullshit is raised. Dude, I'm an American, and I can't seem to understand why this is going on. And I don't take much stock in the "no fly list" mainly because Yusaf Islam aka Cat Stevens was on the list. Ok yeah a guy who has spent his entire life devoted to bringing peace is now a terror threat...riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...

You are confused the TSA is responsible for the errors on the list and they are suffering for thier mistakes.

https://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/2043657/

As for your lack of respect for thier attempts all I can say is sorry. America was taken by surprise and the TSA was the 1st attempt to fix our front door which was left wide open.
BK
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:29 pm

Quoting BlackKnight (Reply 14):
As for your lack of respect for thier attempts all I can say is sorry. America was taken by surprise and the TSA was the 1st attempt to fix our front door which was left wide open.

That's fine, but it's been 3½ years. Time to fix the fix.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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johnboy
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:34 pm

I'm curious as to what they told the passengers when they turned around.
 
Morvious
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:57 pm

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 10):
If their final destination was MEX, could they have flown a different route outside US airspace? Maybe following the American coast until the Gulf of Mexico. I'm guessing here, maybe that route is out of range.



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
It may not be out of range, but the flight planners most probably didn't load enough fuel for such a route.

Route was indeed out of range, and instead of flying back to Ams, they first asked permission to refuel, and then continue the flight, outside American airspace to Mex. They just didn't get the clearance.

All the other passengers did fly he next day, and arrived one day later in Mex.

The two suspects are free to go, because Dutch authorities don't even know why they were suspects, so couldn't arrest them.

A KLM spokesman said
"normally we check our passenger list if they are allowed to the us, but apparently, they have other sources then us. This is the first time this happened to us, it is just an incident."

I would have been pissed.. Why not land at a remote military airfield, take the two man out and let the KLM flight continue.
have a good day,

HereThen
 
bassie2010
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:01 pm

Quoting Johnboy (Reply 16):

Just make a smooth turn and hope nobody notices (chances are slim, I know). If the pilot is smart, he then just keeps his mouth shut and land at AMS. Let ground personnel handle the angry customers  Smile

Personally I do not have a problem if the US denies a flight over its territory. What I do mind is the short notice. The PIL is send to the US in advance, but only when the flight is over Canada do they deny a pass through. Can't they just give the plane a fighter escort through the country. It will cost the US money, but after all, it's the not KLM's fault, it's the TSA's.

And the behaviour of Canda is even stranger. They allow the flight into their airspace, but when the US denies the flight to enter US airspace, the flight is not allowed to land in Canada. So, you can enter Canada with 'a plane full of terrorists' (exaggerated, I know), but you can't land... nice policy.
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Morvious
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:08 pm

Quoting Bassie2010 (Reply 18):
Just make a smooth turn and hope nobody notices (chances are slim, I know). If the pilot is smart, he then just keeps his mouth shut and land at AMS. Let ground personnel handle the angry customers

You better let the route display off when turning back then  Wink
have a good day,

HereThen
 
LPLAspotter
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:18 pm

Quoting BlackKnight (Reply 3):
we applaud the prevention of the loss of life

YOU applaud the prevention of the loss of life? Maybe you should look at the past 2-3 years and see who is responsible for the loss of life (Americans included) in countries that were invaded by the US. Oh, and while were at it, lets note that the US still practices the barbaric act of putting prisoners to death. Your message reeks of hypocrisy.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 2):
Pfff, The US thinks that 50% of the worlds population is a potential Terrorist.
And who's gonna pay for this? The flight was between AMS and MEX and had nothing to do with the US. This kind of stuff is really starting to make me mad.

I second that.

LPLAspotter
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acvitale
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:18 pm

Each air carrier is provided a list to screen against before entering or overflying US airspace. The procedure is quite clear. World wide out of 5 Billion people there are less then 30000 on the list.

This is .0006 % of the population a very feasible number.

Each airline has access to update their list electronically and is required to do so at least once per day. Apparently, KLM was operating from an older list and had not completed the daily update before screening their flight.

The system is clear and defined.

This is what happens when rules are NOT followed. It should be noted that the KLM flight was refused access to the US, Canada and the Bahamas.

The Dutch could have contacted the US Aviation Security Command Center to obtain the details for the persons on the list or to attempt to clear them prior to the flight departure.

Instead they chose not to. This was a choice they made.

Having at one time been an AOSC and having access to the "list" I can only confirm that based on the information on the list the majority are not the kind of people you would like to invite for dinner. (Unless you like the idea of airborne Ebola virus spreads thru your home town.)

There are far greater threats than crashing aircraft into buildings, The next attacks may well be biological attacks. When the cities in Europe are attacked the way the cities in the middle east are or 9/11 attacks were I have no doubt the European attitude will change rapidly. I only can pray this never happens. Fortunately for Europeans the USA is a number on target at this time and Europe is much farther down the list. I pray also that we never see an attack on any soil as outlined above. However, With the events in the Phillipines, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Lebanon, Algeria, and Afganistan over the last several years which then spill into other countries my hopes and prayers are somewhat dampened.

So long as the world makes the choice to use violence under any guise to obtain power, control others or hold groups down the events will continue to spiral downward. Maybe a lesson from the former Pope John Paul II is in order here.
 
OO-VEG
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:30 pm

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 21):
Each airline has access to update their list electronically and is required to do so at least once per day. Apparently, KLM was operating from an older list and had not completed the daily update before screening their flight.

ACVitale, that's a clear point you have made. But still it is "funny" that this aircraft still could enter Canadian Airspace if it actually wasn't supposed to.

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 21):
When the cities in Europe are attacked the way the cities in the middle east are or 9/11 attacks were I have no doubt the European attitude will change rapidly.

Don't forget about March 11th 2004. 3 Trains exploded, and if Al Qaida's timing was perfect those 3 trains would all have exploded at the same place causing a much worse disaster then already happened. Still we have dealt with this in our own way. Atocha Train Station hasn't really turned into a security keep (I was there last week) and flying from Madrid isn't much different as from any other airport.
 
tripple7
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:34 pm

@ ACVitale,

I believe it is stated in this thread that KLM followed the routine regarding the passenger list correctly. Given that this plane is so close to the US it becomes clear that the TSA has been sleeping again. Now only at the latest just before the KLM Boeing enters US airspace they deny entry. The TSA SHOULD have known this earlier...however they didn't. The TSA could have prevented this incident if they would have done their job properly.

Canada's behaviour is strange in this story. They welcome "terrorists" in their airspace but do not allow them to land on Canadian sole so that they can be arrested.

But let's look at the conclusion of this story. In the end no terrorist has been arrested. The US does not provide the Dutch authorities with the details of these persons, so the Dutch police has to let them walk off. Hypothetically speaking this could have been 2 "real" terrorists...who are free to go anywhere they want now. This does not make sense to me.
 
jush
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:35 pm

Quoting BlackKnight (Reply 3):
You must not live next to tall buildings or remember 9/11. Even though those whom died in the 9/11 attacks where mostly Americans they still where humans. The loss of life is tragic period. Because the USA is a target unlike many other countries we applaud the prevention of the loss of life. (Prevention may take many forms) It may seem silly or upsetting to others yet you need to know there are those whom will try any weak link to kill Americans. Maybe if they focused on your country you would understand?

PS American is not the only country with this level of security. Have you ever noticed armed guards at the airport? Why do you think they are there?

no sir it's just ridiculous in that case. Sorry but your country seems have a mild case of overreacting and paranoia
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kl911
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:41 pm

If the plane was already flying over Canada, how could it still have the fuel to return all the way back to AMS? If they had fuel for that, they would have had the fuel as well to fly to MEX following the US coast?

KL911
 
B707Stu
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:44 pm

Quoting BlackKnight (Reply 3):
You must not live next to tall buildings or remember 9/11. Even though those whom died in the 9/11 attacks where mostly Americans they still where humans. The loss of life is tragic period. Because the USA is a target unlike many other countries we applaud the prevention of the loss of life. (Prevention may take many forms) It may seem silly or upsetting to others yet you need to know there are those whom will try any weak link to kill Americans. Maybe if they focused on your country you would understand?

I work 7 blocks from where the Trade Centers stood. I was there that morning and witnesseed horror beyond my mind's capacity to withstand. I still can barely talk about what I saw.

Having said that let me say this. Somehow my name ended up on a list. When I checked into MAN this past December I was informed I had to wait because my name appeared on a list. A) I'm of Jewish heritiage, B) I have absolutely NO IDEA why my name appeared on a list, C) The US is acting very oddly in doing what it did to the KL flight.

I'm all for security, who isn't? But you are naive to think that the U.S. is not instituting ridiculous measures. After holding me about 5 minutes CO decided to board me and you know what? I was upgraded to Business Elite. When speaking with a friend who works for DL a month later they informed me it's often standard operating procedure to upgrade (or put near the front of the cabin) someone who's name appears on "the list." He also informed me that my name could be on a list because someone the US suspected of something had my name, perhaps as a copied name in a multi-thread email or by accident. They informed me that once your name is in anyway associated, however innocent, with someone the FBI/CIA have investigated, you're on the list. By the way, I was probably upgraded to be "watched."

If being on the list means chronic upgrades, lol, heck, sure. But I'd rather enjoy my privacy and sit in the back not wondering who's watching me.
B707stu
 
mrniji
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:53 pm

B707Stu , nice story! I agree in many points on your 1st paragraph..

yeah, these lists seem to be computed very strangely.. probably entering some wrong word in google, along with having a name Mohammad or so puts you on there.. strange, strange, strange
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
gilesdavies
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:10 pm

I assume the US will be compensating all passengers and the airlines for the costs and inconvenience involved for this flight.
 hissyfit 

This is pathetic, there does not seem to be a day go by without the US Security systems effecting a flight.

If this flight was over Canada it would have been well over half way into it's flight, what happens if it does not have enough fuel to cross back over the Atlantic to AMS. Do we leave the poor bastards on the aircraft to die as it crashes!
 
Morvious
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:10 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 25):
If the plane was already flying over Canada, how could it still have the fuel to return all the way back to AMS? If they had fuel for that, they would have had the fuel as well to fly to MEX following the US coast?

KL911

Mexico is a long way if you have to fly a route outside US airspace. Also, Returning to AMS means you are flying into the direction of the earth, so safing some extra minutes flying to.
have a good day,

HereThen
 
Russophile
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:10 pm

Quoting Morvious (Reply 17):
I would have been pissed.. Why not land at a remote military airfield, take the two man out and let the KLM flight continue.

Because when the US government wants to illegally kidnap someone they have that (not-so) clandestine bizjet to do the dirty work for them. Countries like Egypt and Pakistan might not give a rat's arse about going against international norms to please Washington, but I doubt that the Netherlands would be unwilling to follow their 'shining' example and give up one's rights to due process.
 
adam
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:19 pm

Quoting Jush (Reply 24):
no sir it's just ridiculous in that case. Sorry but your country seems have a mild case of overreacting and paranoia

Absolutely correct.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:57 pm

Back in the 1970s, my father received a visit from the anti-terrorist unit of Berlin police and had to undergo an interrogation.
Apparently a would be leftwing terrorist (the day of the communist Baader-Meinhof gang, AKA Red Army Faction RAF) blew himself up with his own bomb by accident. Investigating police found anote with my father´s name on it, so he got on the list. The whole thing got dropped after a while, because there was no possible connection.
My father was teaching at a university in Berlin, also being quite conservative. It was finally assumed that the would be terrorist was a college student, who maybe wanted to enroll in my father´s lectures and got his name and telephone number through offical university publications.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
TedTAce
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:08 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 2):
US thinks that 50% of the worlds population is a potential Terrorist.

(Tongue planted firmly in cheek) But you are all terrorists!!!

Quoting Bassie2010 (Reply 18):
Personally I do not have a problem if the US denies a flight over its territory.

I do!! I understand not allowing it to land, decend, or move in any manner inconsistent with it's transition. If it's going to be near something really sensitive, vector it away.. and if you are REALLY THAT paranoid, give it a fighter escort!!!
This space intentionally left blank
 
moose1226
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:31 pm

Stu:

Your Comments are spot on...Welcome to my RR list...

I hope that the non-Americans on this board see that most Americans think that (at least) parts of Bushes "crusade" (to use his own word) are ridiculous.

Personally, I think the more we piss off other countries (by doing anything from diverting their flights to invading them), the more hate for the US and as a result more terrorism WE will help to create.

Sorry Europe, 49% of us tried to stop this nonsense.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:41 pm

Quoting Moose1226 (Reply 34):
Personally, I think the more we piss off other countries (by doing anything from diverting their flights to invading them), the more hate for the US and as a result more terrorism WE will help to create.

Unfortunate but true. What Bush and co. don't seem to get is that we ("the rest of the world") have no problem with the message of fighting terrorism, just the self-promoting way in which it is delivered and executed.

Quoting Moose1226 (Reply 34):

Sorry Europe, 49% of us tried to stop this nonsense.

Can't those parts of the US just secede from the Union and create their own nation? It would work out pretty well geographically, and then you could tax trade that goes to what's left of the US Big grin
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
soups
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:55 pm

ladies and gentlements, we have some few passengers on board that are on the US-balck list. we suspect they are terrorist. we will return to Amsterdam as the USA would not allow us into their airspace. Thank you for your co-operation and for choosing KLM
Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
 
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B747-437B
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:57 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 12):
I remember an AI flight being escorted from the Atlantic to the US, then taxied emotely on JFK, since they found a pax having the name of a terrorist.. of course, it was a coincidence

Actually, the passenger didn't even have the name of a terrorist.

The passenger had been involved in an argument with one of the contract workers at Heathrow who decided to get his revenge by reporting him to the authorities after the flight had departed.

The passenger spent most of the flight asleep and there was quite an interesting argument between the authorities and the aircraft captain (where he refused to make a precautionary diversion unless ORDERED to which they were not willing to do). The aircraft was shadowed by Canadian and US aircraft for the last 3 hours of flight but landed safely at JFK and the rest is history.

The contract worker was fired after the investigation, but the media never bother to report on that kinda stuff!  Smile
 
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B747-437B
Posts: 8957
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:00 pm

Quoting Russophile (Reply 30):
I doubt that the Netherlands would be unwilling to follow their 'shining' example and give up one's rights to due process

Actually, word is that the Netherlands have actually been quite complicit in "turning a blind eye" to US rendition activities in the international transit area of Schiphol airport.
 
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cathay747
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:05 pm

To all, regardless of nationality or ethnicity, who think the U.S. is being paranoid:

That may be the case, but after a SECOND sneak attack (I refer to 9/11 AND Pearl Harbor) that resulted in the deaths of thousands of people, I personally can understand a certain level of paranoia. And I am certainly not the first or only one to draw similarities between 9/11 & Pearl Harbor.

If Al Qaida (or any OTHER terrorist group) found a weakness in security somewhere that would allow them to commandeer a flight from Europe to Latin America that transited U.S. airspace, so that they could crash a 747 into some target in the U.S., don't you think they would???

I'd rather err on the side of extreme caution, and inconvenience a very small percentage of air travelers, than have another calamity happen. The global impact of another such attack would be beyond measure, and unfortunately, terrorists do not have "I AM A SUICIDAL MANIAC" tattooed on their foreheads. Remember what so many have said: terrorists only have to be successful once, but those trying to stop them have to succeed EVERY time.

And it's also not just people with names like "Mohammed" or other Arabic names; after all, there have been AMERICANS apprehended in Afghanistan & Iraq on the side of the "enemy", and let's also not forget Timothy McVeigh, our own home-grown terrorist, or the Air India or Avianca bombings! Terrorists could come from any country or ethnic background...Al Qaida could recruit some disgruntled maniac from Sweden, Australia or even the U.S. thinking that would help them slip through security.
Try a Little VC-10derness
 
DIJKKIJK
Posts: 1886
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:09 pm

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 38):
Actually, word is that the Netherlands have actually been quite complicit in "turning a blind eye" to US rendition activities in the international transit area of Schiphol airport.

Actually, fact is that every European government is quite complicit in "turning a blind eye" to US rendition activities in every part of Europe. I wouldn't be surprised even if the French are doing it.

The attitude can be summed up as: " If the guy is a terrorist, and the US decides to deal with him without bothering us too much, then so be it. We will render them all assistance they may require".
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:51 am

RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:11 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 32):

Jan, what a story.. man, sometimes the authorities overdo it.. interesting how close your father came to some members of the Baader-Meinhoff group!

Quoting Moose1226 (Reply 34):
Sorry Europe, 49% of us tried to stop this nonsense.

Yeah, I am amongst them and voted in f----g deciding Ohio, but it did not help. So:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 35):
Can't those parts of the US just secede from the Union and create their own nation? It would work out pretty well geographically, and then you could tax trade that goes to what's left of the US

Since I am planning to move back to California soon.. I would not mind (though I do not want Arnie to be our president then Big grin - anyone to join me in a secession movement for the "Liberal New United States"?  bigthumbsup 
Quite frankly, I think there are many great people in the US who have the potential to change all these bad things at the moment.. unluckily, the system constrains any engagement out of the government.. no grassroots empowerment.. I will rather stick, as I am used to, to community work and make my microcosm work well

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 37):

I never knew and only know the incomplete media version.. you are right, the media is very selective.. It seems that the captain (do you know him personally) seems to be someone who could critically assess what was really going on! Good job, and good he did not feel scared of the authorities and fighters around the aeroplane. Well done - I guess many other captains would have blindly followed the stupid movement of the authorities without considering that nothing was wrong.. was the argument with the US or UK authorities??
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:13 pm

Quoting CATHAY747 (Reply 39):

That may be the case, but after a SECOND sneak attack (I refer to 9/11 AND Pearl Harbor) that resulted in the deaths of thousands of people, I personally can understand a certain level of paranoia. And I am certainly not the first or only one to draw similarities between 9/11 & Pearl Harbor.

Like the fact that you had ample warning both times? Sorry couldn't resist.

Quoting CATHAY747 (Reply 39):
If Al Qaida (or any OTHER terrorist group) found a weakness in security somewhere that would allow them to commandeer a flight from Europe to Latin America that transited U.S. airspace, so that they could crash a 747 into some target in the U.S., don't you think they would???

That's fine, but there are so many other things the US could be doing which aren't politically expedient. Using foreign aid to ensure children in 3rd world countries get a proper education instead of going to religious "schools" comes to mind.

Quoting CATHAY747 (Reply 39):
I'd rather err on the side of extreme caution, and inconvenience a very small percentage of air travelers, than have another calamity happen. The global impact of another such attack would be beyond measure, and unfortunately, terrorists do not have "I AM A SUICIDAL MANIAC" tattooed on their foreheads. Remember what so many have said: terrorists only have to be successful once, but those trying to stop them have to succeed EVERY time.

Err on the side of extreme caution and the economy will tank. If travel becomes a hassle, people will stop traveling. That's as big a problem as if terrorist occurs. And there's the whole moral issue of letting the terrorist dictate our actions.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
DIJKKIJK
Posts: 1886
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:03 pm

RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:21 pm

Quoting CATHAY747 (Reply 39):
That may be the case, but after a SECOND sneak attack (I refer to 9/11 AND Pearl Harbor) that resulted in the deaths of thousands of people, I personally can understand a certain level of paranoia

No! Paranoia is a knee jerk reaction that serves no purpose. It is only the weak who are paranoid and I'm quite sure America isn't weak. What is needed here is thinking with the brain, smart decision making and extreme caution, not paranoia! Sadly, the security apparatus in the US has chosen the paranoia route, instead of the intelligent thinking route. They should learn form the Israelis!

Quoting CATHAY747 (Reply 39):
If Al Qaida (or any OTHER terrorist group) found a weakness in security somewhere that would allow them to commandeer a flight from Europe to Latin America that transited U.S. airspace, so that they could crash a 747 into some target in the U.S., don't you think they would???

Sure as hell they would, which is why the US must be cautious and make sure all its security loopholes are plugged. This can only be done with a proper study of exsisting security systems and a analysis of its loophoes, not by paranoid , knee jerk reactions!
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
lear35pilot
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2000 6:56 pm

RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:26 pm

Seems to me that the US bashing in this forum is misdirected. KLM should be the focus of any passenger anger. All airlines operating to and within the US operate under the same no-fly rules, and KLM was caught with its pants down. They didn't do their job correctly, and therefore should be the ones forced to compensate the passengers for their inconvenience. The US policy in unambiguous and has been for some time.
 
Biggles
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:19 am

RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:26 pm

Well, the flight was going to MEX , and we all know how well the U.S. southern border is protected..

The U.S. government won't let a plane fly over their territory,yet at the same time,refuse to protect their southern border.And when private citizens try to protect their border Bush calls them "Vigilantes" .

So many inconsistencies....
 
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cathay747
Posts: 1568
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RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:29 pm

Good points, STARLIONBLUE & DIJKKIJK. Note that how ever my wording came across, I don't JUSTIFY paranoia, I merely understand the cause of it. And just so it's on the record, I too tried to stop the Bush madness by voting against him. He has made us look arrogant and is alienating us from the world.
Try a Little VC-10derness
 
wassch71
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:47 pm

RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:29 pm

There is a judiciary precedent that can explain KLM's quick response to the US request. If individuals carry out terrorist activities in a given location, the airline that flew them there can be held indirectly responsible and be sued for it. This is what happened with MEA in a US court ruling, which found that the airline was guilty in transporting suspect individuals to Kuwait where they carried a terrorist act leading to the death of Americans in December 1984. Better safe than sorry...
Regards
Wassch71.

[Edited 2005-04-10 15:35:18]
MEA...Like No Other
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 20700
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:41 pm

Quoting Lear35pilot (Reply 44):
Seems to me that the US bashing in this forum is misdirected. KLM should be the focus of any passenger anger. All airlines operating to and within the US operate under the same no-fly rules, and KLM was caught with its pants down. They didn't do their job correctly, and therefore should be the ones forced to compensate the passengers for their inconvenience. The US policy in unambiguous and has been for some time.

Possible, but most likely it wasn't KLM's fault. Any other airline operating to the US sends pax lists to the US authorities. However, this is often done when the aircraft is already in the air. That's just how the timing works. So KLM may not have been aware of the pax being on the no fly list until the aircraft was over the Atlantic.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15716
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: KLM Flight Denied Overflyining USA...

Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:44 pm

The USA government has the right, and indeed the obligation to manage access to and use of our airspace. Besides the protection of our airspace, probably another reason for regulating passangers on flights like this AMS-MEX one is to prevent potential terrorists from accessing the USA via Mexico or on other flights, via Canada. It is well understood that the borders of the USA with Mexico and Canada are but for small sections, ungarded and have no fences. Several months ago, there was an arrest in Texas of a suspected terrorist connected person whom had entered the USA via Mexico illegally.
I would also add that not only are people with the name of Abdul on the list, but also Kennedy (ensnaring our US Senator Kennedy a few time) as to the IRA, and others whom support or identified as to terror in Asia, Russia and Europe. Similar names, misspellings, a lack of other identifiying info all make the list highly imperfect and inaccurate. This then leads to the many false alarms and 'oops' decisions.

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