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sunnyb
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AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:55 am

SOURCE: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1073897.cms

State-owned behemoth Air-India is planning to award its over $6 billion mega order for purchasing 50 aircraft to the US-based aircraft-maker Boeing.

The report, forwarded for A-I board approval, says the airline’s high-powered committee has chosen a mix of eight Boeing 737-200LR (long range) (should be 777-200LR), 15 Boeing 777-300ER and 27 Boeing 7E7-8 planes. The total acquisition would cost a whopping Rs 51,637.29 crore — which is over three times the order size of sister carrier Indian Airlines.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:58 am

Quoting Sunnyb (Thread starter):

State-owned behemoth Air-India is planning to award its over $6 billion mega order for purchasing 50 aircraft to the US-based aircraft-maker Boeing.

Exciting news, but I'm gonna wait until it's in flying in Air-India colors. Let's just say ... past experiences?  Wink
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leelaw
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:03 am

Ostensibly this is good news for Boeing. However, this begs the question how long will the cabinet dither over it?
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misbeehavin
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:04 am

Behemoth? Surely they jest!

[Edited 2005-04-11 00:19:56]
 
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:26 am

Surprising this took 2 months to leak. By all accounts the committee had pretty much decided on Boeing in February!  Smile
 
georgiabill
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:33 am

This is potentially great news for Boeing. How soon before the government gives it's approval? Will the sale of fighters to Pakistan complicate the deal?
 
SNATH
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:35 am

This is the quote that I actually found most interesting:

Ministry officials said the report states that a similar mix of Airbus aircraft would have cost Rs 53,433.48 crore, which is 3.4% higher than Boeing�s purchase price.

Airbus actually being more expensive? Anyone surprised? I am.

Tony
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hawaijahaz
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:53 am

Great news. But I don't think that I want to get my hopes up as yet.

I hope AI gets new planes soon. (my fingers are crossed).

PG
 
behramjee
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:09 am

With the large impending order by Air India on the cards, some questions arise :

Q1. With the order for B 773ERs and B 772LRs, will AI still maintain a 2 stop routing to JFK, YYZ and ORD (BOM-DEL-FRA/LHR-JFK/ORD)? or will NYC and ORD become nonstop?

Q2. 50 aircraft obviously mean many new destinations such as SYD which can be served by the B 772LR or even B 787-800 nonstop from DEL or BOM. Any other interesting nonstop long hauls in the works such as AKL, IAD, SFO, LAX, JNB?

Q3. Are the B 773ERs the intended future replacements for AIs B 744s? If so then when will the B 744s see retirement?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:17 am

.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 8):
Q2. 50 aircraft obviously mean many new destinations such as SYD which can be served by the B 772LR or even B 787-800 nonstop from DEL or BOM

A 772ER could easily do that, as could a 773ER or 744. DEL/BOM-SYD is only 5,600 nautical miles. I think a 772LR would be a little too much airplane

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 8):

Q1. With the order for B 773ERs and B 772LRs, will AI still maintain a 2 stop routing to JFK, YYZ and ORD (BOM-DEL-FRA/LHR-JFK/ORD)? or will NYC and ORD become nonstop?

The 772LR could easily do all of these routes, and they are somewhat do-able with the 772ER. I think it has more do to with routing than it does the performance of the airplane.
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atmx2000
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:39 am

Quoting Sunnyb (Thread starter):
The report, forwarded for A-I board approval, says the airline’s high-powered committee has chosen a mix of eight Boeing 737-200LR (long range) (should be 777-200LR), 15 Boeing 777-300ER and 27 Boeing 7E7-8 planes.

I'm sure that ConcordeBoy will be flipping for joy if these 777-200LR orders are real.

Quoting Georgiabill (Reply 5):
Will the sale of fighters to Pakistan complicate the deal?

Well Lockheed is selling the F-16s. India has the option of buying either F-16s from Lockheed or F-18s from Boeing if they so desire.

Quoting SNATH (Reply 6):
Airbus actually being more expensive? Anyone surprised? I am.

With the 787's included, Boeing probably can offer a lower priced package than if this was just a 777 order.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
SNATH
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:51 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 10):
With the 787's included, Boeing probably can offer a lower priced package than if this was just a 777 order.

That's a very good point which I hadn't thought of! Thank you.

Tony
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starrion
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:01 am

This is India. Nothing is done until the planes land. Great news IF it actually happens.

Quoting SNATH (Reply 11):
Quoting SNATH (Reply 6):
Airbus actually being more expensive? Anyone surprised? I am.

With the 787's included, Boeing probably can offer a lower priced package than if this was just a 777 order.

And yes the 787 does kick a$$. Thanks for asking.
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
aseem
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:17 am

I think we all are jumping the gun. thats precisely what we have been doing for past couple of months..relax guys!! let the AI board finalize it and set the ball rolling, and then we will discuss and relish each and every step. Don't worry there is going to be prolonged "foreplay" before the deal reaches climax.
cheers!!
Aseem
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behramjee
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:21 am

I'm happy that the B 772LRs would be flown to USA because they can carry 300 pax approx + 24 tonnes of cargo which the B 772ERs cant on the EWR-DEL-EWR sector!!!

For the SYD, MEL, JNB and AKL services, I would bet on B 787s eventually taking over these routes as its the perfect aircraft meant for these long haul medium density destinations from India.

And yes youre right not only would Concordeboy be flipping over with joy but so would BOEING because the B 772LR programme definitely needs a massive order like this one. And with the USA-India open skies treaty being implemented, chances of SFO-IAD and IAH becoming online are more real than ever with the B 777-200LRs/300ERs.

One thing I forgot to ask was whats the latest with AIs freighter fleet plans of B 744Fs and A 310Fs?
 
gigneil
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:23 am

8 planes is not a massive order, but it certainly is a boost to the program.

I wouldn't imagine AI operating them to anywhere but the United States.

N
 
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:23 am

Quoting Aseem (Reply 13):
let the AI board finalize it

This one is more of a done deal than conventional wisdom gives it credit for. Has been that way since February. The silence surrounding it from official channels is the dead giveaway.
 
The777Man
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:36 am

Let's wait to celebrat too much until the order is signed and made official.

Could that happen as soon as the Paris Air Show this summer ? That would be record time for Air-India!

The777Man
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dalecary
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:44 am

Sean,

assuming the AI board has approved the order,how many other committees,ministries etc have to approve it?? I'll assume it will have to go through the ministry of aviation and then through to the PM's office??
In your 13 or 14 step procedure you posted a while ago for AI/IC to get an order approved, at what steps are the IC order for 43 Airbus 32Xs and the announced intention of AI to order 787/772LR/773ER?
 
co7772wuh
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:58 am

Quoting Aseem (Reply 13):
I think we all are jumping the gun. thats precisely what we have been doing for past couple of months..relax guys!! let the AI board finalize it and set the ball rolling, and then we will discuss and relish each and every step. Don't worry there is going to be prolonged "foreplay" before the deal reaches climax.
cheers!!
Aseem

I don't think I can hold out that long !!! goodvibes 

Seriously, if Boeing can get this order . It will be a huge win for them .

Boeing seems to have alot to offer now with the 787 , 777-200LR and possibly the 747ADV . The stats for there 777-200LR are incrediable. I must say there line up looks pretty darn good !!!
 bigthumbsup 
 
aseem
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:01 pm

Quoting Dalecary (Reply 18):
at what steps are the IC order for 43 Airbus 32Xs

they are at their final step, that is Cabinet Committee on Investments comprising group of prominent Cabinet Ministers including PM. That deal is almost settled and If I am not wrong then price negotiations are going on.
rgds
Aseem
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jaysit
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:20 pm

The 777LR (or the A345) is the perfect aircraft for AI for its US routes. Its quite clear that a majority of AI's westbound pax are headed for the US, and not Europe.

Whether or not, this order will see the light of day in any of our lifetimes is a different matter.
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jaysit
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:40 pm

AI ordering the 777LR would also be a slap in the face of the Euros who are shamelessly demanding transit visas for all Indian nationals who are transiting EU hubs.

With the 777LR, they could launch nonstops to North America, thus bypassing FRA, CDG, and LHR altogether. With the added inconvenience of having to obtain a stupid transit visa for EU hubs, Indian nationals would prefer to fly nonstop on AI, 9W (and I hope they launch nonstops too), or US based carriers.

Maybe LH and AF need to do some much needed lobbying if they want to continue to benefit from India's growing economy.
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behramjee
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:06 pm

Also remember if AI will be placing such a large order...one cannot rule out a big widebodied order for long haul aircraft from Jet Airways and Air Sahara too who would want to compete effectively with AI and CO on the lucurative nonstop India-USA-India routes.  Wink
 
jaysit
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:10 pm

Absolutely, Behramjee.

Frankly, I wouldnt mind seeing Indian and US carriers take over the lucrative India-US routes that European and Gulf carriers have been monopolizing for years, courtesy of the old asinine policies of the GOI.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
aseem
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:18 pm

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 24):
Also remember if AI will be placing such a large order...one cannot rule out a big widebodied order for long haul aircraft from Jet Airways and Air Sahara too who would want to compete effectively with AI and CO on the lucurative nonstop India-USA-India routes. Wink

moreover such large order for long-haul going in favour of Boeing has set the tone for the market. With 9W and S2 looking for similar aircrafts, chances are that they too may go for Boeing due to commonality of staff and equipment. It is yet to be seen whether their pockets will allow brand new B772LR/B787.
Same as happened as a result of IC going in for A320 in the 80s.
rgds
Aseem
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texdravid
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:21 pm

Let's hope this works out.

Meanwhile, I hope AI remembers to use these new aircraft to the benefit of ALL Indians, and not just the ones that are going to or departing BOM/DEL.

That is, use the 787, 777LR/300ER/200ER etc from MAA, Bangalore, and other cities nonstop internationally.
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aseem
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:26 pm

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 27):
That is, use the 787, 777LR/300ER/200ER etc from MAA, Bangalore, and other cities nonstop internationally.

B787 in particular! Would serve well on BLR/HYD-IAH type routes. This is exactly what AI has in mind.
Whereas B773ER is more of a B743 replacement. Expect it to fly off BOM/DEL for a while.
rgds
Aseem
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atmx2000
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:26 pm

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 24):
Also remember if AI will be placing such a large order...one cannot rule out a big widebodied order for long haul aircraft from Jet Airways and Air Sahara too who would want to compete effectively with AI and CO on the lucurative nonstop India-USA-India routes.

Seems like a big jump for these other airlines, to go from domestic to ultra longhaul. Maybe they should gain some experience first with some medium haul international travel first.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 25):
Frankly, I wouldnt mind seeing Indian and US carriers take over the lucrative India-US routes that European and Gulf carriers have been monopolizing for years, courtesy of the old asinine policies of the GOI.

Well, the GOI will have to be careful about how many frequencies it assigns carriers from these countries, otherwise they will take advantage of the geographic advantage their hubs provide them, and snuff out the nonstop services.
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mrniji
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:26 pm

Very good news! And as I have heard from sources, it seems that things might be finally cleared soon. Shame on Airbus they did not offer a comprehensive package, as they will loose a lot of future business with through that (still I do hope that AI might order the 380 once.. that in AI livery WOW!). It is their own mistake, and I hope that AI won't be bashed due to that - they have the right to decide whom to trade with, and if Boeing offers the better financial and tecjhnical package, they shouyld win!. Anyways, not a big surprise, as the leasing of the 777 was a first indicator

Anyways, earlier I had preferred Airbus, but the last weeks, I have been thinking that it might be better to stick with the US, seeing future potential trade and Europe's decline of economic power, and:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 22):
AI ordering the 777LR would also be a slap in the face of the Euros who are shamelessly demanding transit visas for all Indian nationals who are transiting EU hubs.

I completely agree. Liberal Europe, in front the Germans, only want to capture the Indian Market, without returning everything. Hence, this should be a lesson for them. If they wanna do business with us, they have to treat my country people correctly, it was to happen on a mutual basis without prime objective of exploiting us.

Great news, and as said, that might clear soon. Would be interesting rto see how the livery will look/will be modified on the dreamliner. Amazing plane!

Congratilationa AI and Boeing!  Smile
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
atmx2000
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:50 pm

So would they order GE engines for both the 777s and 787s? How long are they going to lease the PW 772ERs for?
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:59 pm

I'll be great news for GE if it goes ahead. On the back of the 777s they'll no doubt get the 787 order too.
 
mrniji
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:02 pm

By the way, can someone post some quick technical data (range, capacity etc.) of the 787-800.? I think it is quite exciting AI is planning to acquire the dreamliner..

Man, if this order goes ahead as suggested, AI has the potential tp be a world class airline again!

By the way, what with short-haul aircraft (737-800, or has that beeen scrapped? - or is AI supposed to overtake IC in this procerss>?)
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
dalecary
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:46 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 33):
By the way, can someone post some quick technical data (range, capacity etc.) of the 787-800.? I think it is quite exciting AI is planning to acquire the dreamliner

217 pax in an international 3-class arrangement. I guess around 250 pax in an international 2-class configuration. Range is 8,500nm.
 
UAMAYBACH1239
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:16 pm

If this deal is sealed, this would be the push that puts boeing on top.
I think the industry , especially in asia are looking in the future and can see better profits in point to point flts. rather than high density flts. The 400's and 777's are still young which is why we dont see large A380 orders.

If carriers are comitted to 787's they are more than likely to purchase more widebodies from Boeing. (747-adv-500-600)  airplane 
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HAWK21M
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:20 pm

Quoting Sunnyb (Thread starter):
The report, forwarded for A-I board approval, says the airline’s high-powered committee has chosen a mix of eight Boeing 737-200LR (long range) (should be 777-200LR), 15 Boeing 777-300ER and 27 Boeing 7E7-8 planes.

Old news....But I'd rather wait till things start moving.I wonder how many more committees it has to still clear.

Quoting Aseem (Reply 26):
With 9W and S2 looking for similar aircrafts, chances are that they too may go for Boeing due to commonality of staff and equipment.

I know a couple of F/Os that have switched to IA for the A320s last week & a few 9W Mx buddies are currently in tolouse doing their A340 Mx training.

regds
MEL
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B707Stu
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:56 pm

This is the order I predicted! Finally got one right! 777LR and 787 are perfect aircraft for AI. Congrats to Boeing and AI. Can't wait to see the non-stop JFK-BOM and JFK-DEL services. That'll take quite a bit of revenue from BA, AF, LH, KL... very interesting shift here folks. Early impact of the 787!
 
mrniji
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:09 pm

Quoting Dalecary (Reply 34):
217 pax in an international 3-class arrangement. I guess around 250 pax in an international 2-class configuration. Range is 8,500nm.

I have to admit that Boeing has proven a great strategic management of focussing on aircraft like the 787, the 777 family, while the 300 and 310 are coming to an end.. airbus has burnt a lot of resources in the 380 and is loosing a main proportion of the sustainable market. They really offer a great range of products in the mCLR range... super to know that the 787 can do India-US nonstops
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:31 pm

Quoting Dalecary (Reply 18):
assuming the AI board has approved the order,how many other committees,ministries etc have to approve it??

Plenty, but there is internal incentive for the process to be speeded up.

I expect to see this initiative fast-tracked and an order finalized as soon as July or August.
 
mrniji
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:04 pm

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 39):
I expect to see this initiative fast-tracked and an order finalized as soon as July or August.

That is exactly what I was told - July or August
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:16 pm

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 23):
AI ordering the 777LR would also be a slap in the face of the Euros who are shamelessly demanding transit visas for all Indian nationals who are transiting EU hubs.

It's a quite bold statement coming from an American, whose government imposes idiotic, Orwellian immigration policies on absolutely EVERYONE including those in transit only, with 0 interest to enter the Jesusland.
 
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:20 pm

The 8 772LR, any chance AI will source these via GECAS who still have an LOI for 8 or, will the whole package be a direct purchase from Boeing?

Regards
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boeingfever777
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:42 pm

Sounds great! CONGRATS to Boeing and AI in there all-most-done deal! Big grin

BTW: There will use the 787-800 on JFK-DEL, JFK-BOM?



JFK-BOM 6777 nm
JFK-DEL 6359 nm
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
mrniji
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:06 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 41):
It's a quite bold statement coming from an American, whose government imposes idiotic, Orwellian immigration policies on absolutely EVERYONE including those in transit only, with 0 interest to enter the Jesusland.

For your kind information: Immigrating to the US has been easier in the past than immigrating to the countries of the European Union, which (except of England) have had even stupider immigration policies - their policies are very idiotic, too. See that ridiculous German Green Card initiative. While countries like the US are ready to issue 5 yrs tourist visas, some countries in the European Union would at most issue visas for the planned stay, upon proove of hotel stay, adequate funds and medical stuff. While students to the UK can have a visa for their entire stay, people willing to study in Germany first receive a 3 Month Visa, upon proove of 100000 medical stuff (things which sound like being free of Ebola and other stuff), and have to run to racist authorities and beg them to renew. The US is much more liberal in that sense. You are correct on teh Transit Visa issue, but it is less dramatic with the US tahn Europe, since Europe is more a layover gateway than the US.

So check your facts, otherwise they might come in teh way of your arguments.. or as a German proverb says: "The one who sits in a glass house, hould not throw with stones" (Wer im Glasshaus sitzt, soll keine Steine werfen)
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
N79969
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:22 pm

This would be a big win for Boeing in terms of creating PR value that may even eclipse the economic value. Airbus has justified some pretty aggressive pricing to get a foothold in "strategic markets" in Airbus parlance. If this comes to fruition, Boeing will have won the big dollar contract to supply the widebody fleet for the flagship airline of one the world's future economic giants.

It is a matter of time before someone gives Indianguy some smelling salts and revive him before what will be a rant full of imagined tales of deceit and bribery...Be prepared....
 
mrniji
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:46 pm

Quoting N79969 (Reply 45):
It is a matter of time before someone gives Indianguy some smelling salts and revive him before what will be a rant full of imagined tales of deceit and bribery...Be prepared....

InianGuy is perma banned.. but to be fair, in India, I would not rule out the coruption thing.. Dinesh Keskar, Boeing Rep in India, knows the country very well  Wink
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
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RayChuang
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RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:09 pm

I would not be surprised that AI orders the 777-200LR, mostly because it will allow direct non-stop flights between JFK and BOM/DEL year-round. And the plane will have more seating capacity than the A340-500, too.
 
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HAWK21M
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Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:17 pm

Politics plays a big role.........Although no one would publicly say so  Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
NYC777
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Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:20 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 48):
Politics plays a big role.........Although no one would publicly say so

While politic and corruption usually (more than usually) plays a role in the GOI economic affairs, I trully believe that Boeing also won (potentially) based on the merits of the product offerings.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
DIJKKIJK
Posts: 1869
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:03 pm

RE: AI Prefers Boeing For $6B Purchase Plan

Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:27 pm

Very Nice tactics by the Indian Government. They keep Airbus happy by ordering airbuses for IC and keep Boeing happy by ordering 777s for AI.


"Don't offend nobody" , seems to be the official policy here. Nice.
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.

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