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newkai
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JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:22 pm

An interesting article was in the Syracuse Post-Standard this morning:

http://www.syracuse.com/business/pos...ness-7/1113468099238941.xml&coll=1

Basically, B6 has said it would like to expand service from SYR, including to "an unnamed destination," but it feels its landing fees are too high. The article also lists the following landing fees at NY airports:

"Mancuso said Syracuse's landing fee rose in July from $1.88 per 1,000 pounds to $2.61. He said that is lower than rates in Buffalo ($3.22), LaGuardia ($5.20) and Tompkins County ($4.67). Among major Upstate airports, only Rochester's rate ($1.82) and Albany's ($2.60) are lower, he said."

Other interesting paragraphs:

"Gareth Edmondson-Jones, speaking for the airline Wednesday, said the Embraer 190 would allow JetBlue to provide direct service from Syracuse to destinations such as Florida or Boston without having to stop at Kennedy to fill its seats."

"If Syracuse capped its landing fee as Neeleman suggested, it would knock about $259 off the $370 fee that JetBlue pays every time one of its Airbus A320's lands at Hancock. With three flights a day, that would save the carrier about $777 a day, or about $280,000 a year. The savings would be greater if JetBlue expands service here."

[Edited 2005-04-14 16:23:46]
 
MAH4546
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:25 pm

Quoting Newkai (Thread starter):
Basically, B6 has said it would like to expand service from SYR, including to "an unnamed destination," but it feels its landing fees are too high. The article also lists the following landing fees at NY airports:

That would be Fort Lauderdale or Miami.
 
newkai
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:33 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
That would be Fort Lauderdale or Miami.

I agree.
 
DB777
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expan

Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:45 pm

I think it would be pretty ironic for JetBlue to complain about fees at Syracuse and then start service to MIA and pay fees that are exorbitant compared to what SYR charges. Even if the incentive program at MIA is implemented, it only waives landing fees which are a small fraction of the total fees charged.

MIA's landing fees are also based on aircraft weight, like virtually every airport in the country. The article mentions that JetBlue complained about that method at SYR.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:48 pm

Quoting Newkai (Thread starter):
"Mancuso said Syracuse's landing fee rose in July from $1.88 per 1,000 pounds to $2.61. He said that is lower than rates in Buffalo ($3.22), LaGuardia ($5.20) and Tompkins County ($4.67). Among major Upstate airports, only Rochester's rate ($1.82) and Albany's ($2.60) are lower, he said."

Wow! That is pretty darn expensive.. No wonder B6 is looking to go to the MidAtlantic.. landing fees in this area falls between the high $0.?? to the very low $1.??. I would move to the MidAtlantic too. I know in RDU, landing fees are $1.08 (up from $0.88 last year).
 
FA4B6
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:11 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
That would be Fort Lauderdale or Miami.

I doubt it would be FLL. Things are so cramped at FLL now and MIA isn't even official yet. Maybe MCO or BOS?
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:41 am

Quoting FA4B6 (Reply 5):
I doubt it would be FLL. Things are so cramped at FLL now and MIA isn't even official yet. Maybe MCO or BOS?

I would have said MCO. I think it still is the number one destination out of SYR. There are still a large number of charters done to MCO to account for the lack of service.
 
supa7E7
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:44 am

US serves SYR-MCO on Saturdays.
 
flyibaby
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:45 am

I concur over MCO. I see waaay to many people going to SYR and MHT on a daily basis from MCO.
 
newkai
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:53 am

Well it's true that B6 and T9 could both co-exist serving the Orlando area, MCO and SFB respectively. T9 currently flies 7 to 9 flights a week SYR-SFB.

As for the landing fees, only ROC is cheaper in Upstate (disregarding ALB's one cent).
 
ScottB
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:10 am

If they get this worked up over what are still relatively low fees at SYR, I can't see jetBlue EVER going into MIA. SYR still has the highest fare premium of the four largest upstate NY airports, and jetBlue's JFK-SYR yields easily outpace their JFK-ROC and JFK-BUF yields (as of 3Q04).

To me, it seems like they're fishing -- trying to get a break from Syracuse just because they have greater leverage there as the largest LCC at the airport. I doubt they'd be able to do the same at ROC or BUF (given AirTran at ROC and both AirTran and Southwest at BUF).
 
lowecur
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:21 am

The point Neeleman is trying to make is SYR takes them for granted. The only reason upstate even received service from Jetblue was insistance from the Senator as part of the JFK deal.

So what does SYR do to thank Jetblue and the Senator? The Mayor goes out and courts TransMeridian to serve SYR and reports to the press that this will lower airfares in the SYR area. It did nothing to lower fares in the SYR, but did give them n/s service to the Orlando area and other cities in FL, thus cannibalizing prospective Jetblue customers and keeping flts at 3 per day where ROC has 6. With the new landing fees they also made it more attractive for other airlines to downsize to 50 seat RJs as those rates were capped at $1.81.

ALB needs higher fees to help pay for their new $300M terminal. ROC is smart and understands how to treat airlines that have a bright future. BUF is as dumb as SYR with their high fees, but their pax traffic offsets the cost.
 
kbuf737
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:26 am

Does this curb their expansion plans for BUF and ROC too? This is assuming that the E90 will bring direct Florida service to upstate cities.
 
ScottB
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:15 am

Quoting Lowecur (Reply 11):
The point Neeleman is trying to make is SYR takes them for granted. The only reason upstate even received service from Jetblue was insistance from the Senator as part of the JFK deal.

A handful of daily flights upstate (and to BTV) seems like a small price to pay for 75 valuable slot exemptions at JFK. They did pull a bit of a bait-and-switch on the politicians who supported them, given that the list of cities they were supposedly "considering" in 1999 from JFK was:

Quote:
Atlanta; Boston; Buffalo; Burlington, VT; Canton/Akron; Charleston, SC; Charleston, WV; Charlotte; Chicago; Cincinnati; Cleveland; Columbia, SC; Columbus, OH; Dallas/Fort Worth; Dayton; Denver; Flint; Ft. Lauderdale; Ft. Myers; Grand Rapids, MI; Greensboro, NC; Greenville/Spartanburg; Houston; Indianapolis; Jacksonville, FL; Louisville; Memphis; Milwaukee; Minneapolis/St. Paul; Nashville; New Orleans; Norfolk; Orlando; Pittsburgh; Portland, ME; Raleigh/Durham; Richmond; Rochester, NY; Salt Lake City; Savannah; Syracuse; Tampa; Washington, DC; and West Palm Beach.

They've only added service to 1/3 of these cities (15 out of 44 by my count, and only 12 of these from JFK), and many of the cities they added (MCO, TPA, RSW, PBI, FLL) already had significant low-fare service from NYC. The vast majority of the "overpriced and underserved from NYC" markets, excluding BUF, ROC, SYR, and BTV, got zilch, nada, bupkis.

Quoting Lowecur (Reply 11):
So what does SYR do to thank Jetblue and the Senator? The Mayor goes out and courts TransMeridian to serve SYR and reports to the press that this will lower airfares in the SYR area. It did nothing to lower fares in the SYR, but did give them n/s service to the Orlando area and other cities in FL

Well, jetBlue hasn't been terribly effective in lowering fares in SYR to Florida. SYR has the highest fares of the four big upstate airports to MCO and TPA, and SYR-MCO average fares have INCREASED since 1999, while SYR-TPA fares have fallen 10%.
 
FA4B6
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:27 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 13):
Well, jetBlue hasn't been terribly effective in lowering fares in SYR to Florida. SYR has the highest fares of the four big upstate airports to MCO and TPA, and SYR-MCO average fares have INCREASED since 1999, while SYR-TPA fares have fallen 10%.

doesnt that have to do with the fact that all our pax have to connect in JFK before going Florida which would raise the fares? So if we added a non stop from SYR to MCO, FLL, TPA, or PBI wouldnt that keep the fare down?
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:43 am

Quoting FA4B6 (Reply 14):
doesnt that have to do with the fact that all our pax have to connect in JFK before going Florida which would raise the fares?

No passengers pay to go from SYR to MCO regardless if they have to stop at JFK. B6 has a fare they control from SYR-MCO and that is what the passenger purchases. Passengers could buy a ticket from SYR to JFK and another ticket from JFK to SYR, but it would likely be higher.
 
lowecur
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:48 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 13):
handful of daily flights upstate (and to BTV) seems like a small price to pay for 75 valuable slot exemptions at JFK. They did pull a bit of a bait-and-switch on the politicians who supported them, given that the list of cities they were supposedly "considering" in 1999 from JFK was:

That's a dumb statement Scott. Do you actually believe Jetblue is going to pull 320s off their present routes and deploy them to some of those cities. The 320 is really only a moneymaker on routes over 1000 miles. You think Jetblue should pull their low CASM long haul routes to run flts to Savannah and these other short haul cities? They will get to those cities as the 190 is deployed, but it makes no economical sense with the 320 fleet. Upstate happened in the beginning because of Schumer, but it would have never happened without him.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 13):
Well, jetBlue hasn't been terribly effective in lowering fares in SYR to Florida. SYR has the highest fares of the four big upstate airports to MCO and TPA, and SYR-MCO average fares have INCREASED since 1999, while SYR-TPA fares have fallen 10%.

I think they've done a great job. SYR had to depend on DL and US Airways for service to Florida before JBLU came to town. Cramped and dirty 732s n/s to MCO was what they had before service was discontinued in the 90s. All flts after that have connected through ATL, PHL, CVG, or CLT with lousy passenger service. Pricing is very competitive. Take a look at the low fares just offered this week starting at $69. each way.
 
MAH4546
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:55 am

Quoting DB777 (Reply 3):
I think it would be pretty ironic for JetBlue to complain about fees at Syracuse and then start service to MIA and pay fees that are exorbitant compared to what SYR charges

I agree, although MIA and jetBlue are working out a nice incentive package that will bring per passenger costs down to about $3 in the first year. After that, though, I have no idea...
 
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ERJ170
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:08 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
although MIA and jetBlue are working out a nice incentive package that will bring per passenger costs down to about $3 in the first year.

Maybe it is just me, and it probably is, but I don't see how an airline wouldn't look longterm at the MIA deal and not be utterly displeased. I mean, in a year, an airline is just getting itself where it wants to be.. and then to have to jump from $3 to ~$15!!!! It just wouldn't seem economical to me. And to me, it just doesn't seem like a low cost way of doing things.. the prices on the ???-MIA routes would be so out of line with the rest of B6 routes.. I just don't see how it could be a smart move..

but once again.. I say, it may just be me and the way I am looking at it..
 
MAH4546
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:11 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 18):
Maybe it is just me, and it probably is, but I don't see how an airline wouldn't look longterm at the MIA deal and not be utterly displeased. I mean, in a year, an airline is just getting itself where it wants to be.. and then to have to jump from $3 to ~$15!!!! It just wouldn't seem economical to me. And to me, it just doesn't seem like a low cost way of doing things.. the prices on the ???-MIA routes would be so out of line with the rest of B6 routes.. I just don't see how it could be a smart move..

but once again.. I say, it may just be me and the way I am looking at it..

It is the way you look at it. There is a lot of traffic potential at MIA. Denver's landing fees are higher than Miami's. That doesn't stop jetBlue from flying to Denver.

MIA fares will probably be slightly higher than FLL fares. That helps make up for the difference. At MIA, jetBlue will be getting virtually unlimited supply of what they want...plenty of gates, plenty of flights, an already huge customer base. That makes up for the high landing fees.

[Edited 2005-04-14 21:13:48]
 
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ERJ170
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:19 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 19):
Denver's fares are higher than Miami's. That doesn't stop jetBlue from flying to Denver.

The only difference is that jetBlue doesn't fly to DEN's alternative airport already (which I assume would be COS???).. I would say that if jetBlue did fly to DEN's alternative airport, they probably would not be flying into DEN.. but there may not even be an alternative airport for DEN.. which would represent why jetBlue flies into DEN...

Much like jetBlue flights into everywhere except LAX, OAK over SFO.. where an equally acceptable alternative is available, they choose the lower cost airport..

And much like jetBlue has done LGB, I can see them decreasing some FLL flights for other destinations should they need it.. once they get the E90 in.. it will be a totally different ballgame.. I could see a lot of NS flights into FLL from NY, but also some connecting opportunites through some of the E90 cities.. so instead of having (just for saying) 14 dailies from JFK to FLL.. they could have 12 from JFK with connecting 1 through RDU and 1 through RIC.. that way RDU and RIC could have a FLL flight and JFK could still have 14 dailies..

but again.. this is just what I am thinking and I could be thinking wrong again...
 
MAH4546
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:23 am

The big difference is this:

Miami is a premium market. It can demand the high landing fees. Smaller markets, like Syracuse, Rochester, and Raleigh, can't.

Since FLL has existed as an alternative serving the same exact customer base, airlines have concentrated their growth there. However, now FLL is oversaturated with limited room for new carriers. There is no gate space, it is delay prone, and has the longest security checkpoint line waits of any US airport. The airport is near capacity, and once it reaches 25M passengers, that's about all it can handle. MIA, on the other hand, has plenty of room for new airlines, is not congested, is a four runway-operation, and, when rennovation is completed, will be able to handle 65M passengers a year (a figure it won't reach for a long time). Airlines will pay the premium to be an uncongested, easy to use airport.

Now, I do agree that the landing fees at MIA are too high, and $8-$9 would be within reason, but, oh well.

[Edited 2005-04-14 21:32:16]
 
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N62NA
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:27 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 19):
MIA fares will probably be slightly higher than FLL fares. That helps make up for the difference. At MIA, jetBlue will be getting virtually unlimited supply of what they want...plenty of gates, plenty of flights, an already huge customer base.

Count me as one of the potential customers for a MIA-SYR route. I go up there for a college reunion 1 time per year and would LOVE to have nonstop service!
 
ScottB
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expan

Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:31 am

Quoting Lowecur (Reply 16):
That's a dumb statement Scott. Do you actually believe Jetblue is going to pull 320s off their present routes and deploy them to some of those cities. The 320 is really only a moneymaker on routes over 1000 miles. You think Jetblue should pull their low CASM long haul routes to run flts to Savannah and these other short haul cities?

Why is it dumb to point out that jetBlue pulled a bait-and-switch on the politicians and FAA? They said one thing in 1999 and proceeded to do something quite different. I'm not saying they should do anything; I'm saying they did not do what they claimed they were going to do. And, for what it's worth, DFW and IAH are farther from JFK than any of the Florida cities, while JFK-MEM is farther than JFK-MCO. Moreover, your "example" of SAV as a "short-haul" route is only about 20 minutes' flying time closer to JFK than FLL is to IAD.

Whether or not they chose the right aircraft for the mission they initially stated is another issue. WN seems to do quite well flying 737-700's on scores of routes that are under 500 miles. JetBlue appears no need to achieve 80+% load factors on mostly medium-to-long-haul routes to make its business work.

Quoting Lowecur (Reply 16):
I think they've done a great job [of lowering fares to Florida].

You may think that, but the statistics prove that you are wrong. You can say what you want about improving quality of service although I honestly don't think that connecting at JFK is any more expedient than going via PIT, CVG, or CLT, which are all quite nice facilities. Moreover, Delta and US Airways still offer a broader array of flight schedules to Florida via their hubs than jetBlue does via its hub.
 
FLAIRPORT
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:37 am

I do have to say something about FLL. There is space for limited operations to upstate NY. If jetBlue came up with a revalation and instead of flying 2 or 3 E190s to FLL, they could sub that with 1 A320 to SYR, ROC, BUF, and/or some other new destinations in the NE (I.E. FLY TO BDL PLEASE! I DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO FLY SONG 5X PER YEAR!). There is pleanty of time during the day that there is a gate open, whether it be on Southwest's side, jetBlue's side, or CO/NW. As far as I know, concourses B and C are common use, so couldn't they just fly 1 A320 to these destinations per day. Another note here is that if they do this, they can easily knock off 1-2 daily JFK turns, which would help the gate situation.
 
727LOVER
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:58 am

Where can one get a list of all U.S. airports' landing fees?
 
lowecur
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:11 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 23):
Why is it dumb to point out that jetBlue pulled a bait-and-switch on the politicians and FAA? They said one thing in 1999 and proceeded to do something quite different. I'm not saying they should do anything; I'm saying they did not do what they claimed they were going to do.

So are you saying that Jetblue's startup route map and timeline for service was layed out in advance of them beginning service? Since you seem to know so much about the deal, what was that timeline when all these cities would be served, or did Jetblue say they would make a reasonable attempt to serve all these cities as economics dictated? Be specific Scott as to where the bait and switch occured and lay out a timeline that is in writing when Jetblue was to begin service to these cities.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 22):
And, for what it's worth, DFW and IAH are farther from JFK than any of the Florida cities, while JFK-MEM is farther than JFK-MCO. Moreover, your "example" of SAV as a "short-haul" route is only about 20 minutes' flying time closer to JFK than FLL is to IAD.

Another dumb statement. Jetblue will service whatever cities within it's business model it feels will economically strengthen their balance sheet at that time. Again, point out the timeline that was given by Jetblue to enter these cities with the original agreement for slots at JFK. You know what, you can't, because there never was one. Other than the original cities served in the first 2 years, every city added after that time was an economic decision, not one based on promises. Route decisions are fluid and based on airline economics at the time. Route decisions based on any other premise is counterproductive.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 23):
You may think that, but the statistics prove that you are wrong. You can say what you want about improving quality of service although I honestly don't think that connecting at JFK is any more expedient than going via PIT, CVG, or CLT, which are all quite nice facilities. Moreover, Delta and US Airways still offer a broader array of flight schedules to Florida via their hubs than jetBlue does via its hub.

Splitting hairs Scott. It's about offering competitive LCC fares, not saving someone $10. per leg over the last 12 months. Those are all very nice facilities, but the fact is customer service and satisfaction is much higher at Jetblue. Send Jetblue out the door at SYR and watch how quickly fares rise.
 
ScottB
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:45 am

Quoting Lowecur (Reply 26):
So are you saying that Jetblue's startup route map and timeline for service was layed out in advance of them beginning service? Since you seem to know so much about the deal, what was that timeline when all these cities would be served, or did Jetblue say they would make a reasonable attempt to serve all these cities as economics dictated?

I made no claim as to what their "timeline" or "startup route map" would be. I quoted the list that jetBlue itself, in its press releases, gave in the months prior to starting service. They stated they were "considering" service to these cities, which is never a guarantee in and of itself, but this statement was certainly crafted to curry favor with politicians who answer to voters in those cities. They made no disclaimers as to "a reasonable attempt to serve all these cities as economics dictated."

Read the press release yourself from when they announced their JFK slot exemptions: http://www.jetblue.com/learnmore/pressDetail.asp?newsId=5

Neeleman also claimed they would offer fares for "65 percent less than our competitors' offer today." It looks like that's not true for SYR to Florida.

Quoting Lowecur (Reply 26):
Another dumb statement. Jetblue will service whatever cities within it's business model it feels will economically strengthen their balance sheet at that time. Again, point out the timeline that was given by Jetblue to enter these cities with the original agreement for slots at JFK. You know what, you can't, because there never was one. Other than the original cities served in the first 2 years, every city added after that time was an economic decision, not one based on promises.

Your "first 2 years" straw man doesn't even hold up. By their second anniversary of service, jetBlue was flying to SEA, OAK, ONT, and LGB, and had announced service to SJU. Of course they made their service decisions for economic reasons, duh -- they did that from day one! That still doesn't change that they represented themselves prior to startup as being something they were not going to be. JetBlue has brought lots of cheap flights to Florida and the West Coast to New York City. They have done little for most of the cities they claimed to be interested in serving as of 1999, when they were trying to get their slot exemptions approved. That list of cities was designed specifically to get politicians behind the cause of getting those exemptions approved.

Quoting Lowecur (Reply 26):
It's about offering competitive LCC fares, not saving someone $10. per leg over the last 12 months. Those are all very nice facilities, but the fact is customer service and satisfaction is much higher at Jetblue. Send Jetblue out the door at SYR and watch how quickly fares rise.

Well, your claim about lowering fares at SYR got blown out of the water by the facts, so you choose to switch to customer service/satisfaction. This is just fine, but your original point about lowering fares to Florida didn't hold water, and that's NOT splitting hairs. And given jetBlue's recent on-time performance (including dead last in January), I think I'd choose to avoid a connection at JFK.
 
DC10Heavy
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:18 am

Regarding SYR, I live here and this airport is Mickey Mouse no pun intended (I leave this Sat morning for MCO on DAL for a week of fun in the sun). OUr landing fees are ridiculous !!! No doubt about it....

The current airport commissioner Mancuso is relatively new at his position (just under a year at most), his most memorable line when he got the position to the news media is as follows : "I know absolutely nothing about aviation but, I look forward to learning ". Now you know why we are Mickey Mouse (again, no pun intended).

Any directs out of here would be a bonus, we are so limited. The former Aviation commissioner was a " Heavy Hitter " Charles Everett, he is now a consultant at JFK or Laguardia I can't remember the exact one. He brought JB and IFLYI here not this latest clown Mancuso.
 
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N62NA
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:19 am

It's so nice to see a spiritied debate on here involving SYR!
 
lowecur
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:02 am

Scott, was it you who made this statement or was it Eliot Spitzer?

Quoting ScottB (Reply 13):
A handful of daily flights upstate (and to BTV) seems like a small price to pay for 75 valuable slot exemptions at JFK. They did pull a bit of a bait-and-switch on the politicians who supported them, given that the list of cities they were supposedly "considering" in 1999 from JFK was:

Now, I'm not aware that any of the politicians feel they were betrayed. Could you point to any written article where they are pissed about this obvious misrepresentation.


Quoting ScottB (Reply 27):
They stated they were "considering" service to these cities, which is never a guarantee in and of itself, but this statement was certainly crafted to curry favor with politicians who answer to voters in those cities.

Once again, where was it ever pointed out in literature that Jetblue mislead politicians who represented voters in those cities.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 27):
They have done little for most of the cities they claimed to be interested in serving as of 1999, when they were trying to get their slot exemptions approved. That list of cities was designed specifically to get politicians behind the cause of getting those exemptions approved.

Once again Scott, where in literature can you point me to those facts. Is it possible that you live in one of these cities and feel betrayed?

Quoting ScottB (Reply 27):
Well, your claim about lowering fares at SYR got blown out of the water by the facts, so you choose to switch to customer service/satisfaction. This is just fine, but your original point about lowering fares to Florida didn't hold water, and that's NOT splitting hairs. And given jetBlue's recent on-time performance (including dead last in January), I think I'd choose to avoid a connection at JFK.

I'm interested in those facts. Just what was US Airways charging to NYC before Jetblue came to town? It is my opinion that was the thrust of the 65% savings. So please give me an idea of what a pax would have been paying pre-Jetblue for a last minute walk up fare or a fare purchased without a Sat night stay 14 day advanced? Also, give me some facts on what a pax would pay pre-Jetblue on last minute walk up or a fare purchased without a Sat night 14 day advanced to Florida?

Incidently, for your information. The on-time performance was mostly due to the massive delays at FLL and weather in the NE. They were just rated the worst airport for on-time performance nationwide. When you have as many flts out of NYC, BOS, IAD, LGB to FLL that Jetblue has, those numbers can get skewed.

Now click you heels three times and say good night.

[Edited 2005-04-15 03:05:26]

[Edited 2005-04-15 03:08:29]
 
User avatar
glideslope
Posts: 1632
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 8:06 pm

RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:21 am

Quoting Lowecur (Reply 11):
So what does SYR do to thank Jetblue and the Senator? The Mayor goes out and courts TransMeridian to serve SYR and reports to the press that this will lower airfares in the SYR area. It did nothing to lower fares in the SYR, but did give them n/s service to the Orlando area and other cities in FL, thus cannibalizing prospective Jetblue customers and keeping flts at 3 per day where ROC has 6. With the new landing fees they also made it more attractive for other airlines to downsize to 50 seat RJs as those rates were capped at $1.81

I could not agree more. It's not looking good to boot that Fool of a mayor out of office either.
 
Qantas83
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:43 am

RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:17 am

I love Jetblue, they are a top notch outfit! I wish they offered services to Boston from SYR. The only carrier that does is US Airways, and it's on a tiny little beechcraft and for around $200US return! In terms of landing fees, it seems counter intuitive that an airport like Hancock would command more that BUF, and ROC. Its a tiny airport, but being a student at SU, I guess the city will try and generate funds any way it can. I also agree that lack of frequency is an issue. Have you ever taken the late flight back to SYR from JFK? It's a killer, give me QF 107 anyday!!
 
DB777
Posts: 864
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expan

Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:50 am

Ah, beautiful Syracuse, I remember Eastern having a non-stop L1011 to MIA from there back in the mid to late 70's, among other flights. And that was summertime because I had to get home from Canada to get my shutters up for a hurricane headed for Miami only to have it turn away before hitting us.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 25):
Where can one get a list of all U.S. airports' landing fees?

I don't know about other airports' fees, but here's the October 1st 2004 fees that JetBlue would pay at MIA without an incentive discount. It's tough to do comparisons between airports because of the variation in types of fees but allegedly someone figures out a cost per passenger by dividing all the fee revenue by the number of pax. Actual cost per passenger per airline may vary.

The rates and charges were probably recently modified on April 1st - they usually revise them twice a year on 4/1 and 10/1. I don't know if SYR has "other" fees like MIA but here's a cost comparison between the two airports for an A320-200. MIA considers the A320-200 to have a nominal landing weight of 142,000 pounds.

SYR: $2.61 per 1K landing weight times 142 equals $370.62 (wow, that's expensive, eh?)

MIA: $2.10 per 1K landing weight times 142 equals $298.20 (wow, that's pretty cheap, eh?)

However, that's just the beginning at MIA because MIA doesn't lease gates or ramps at the main terminal and charges airlines on a per use basis to pay for maintenance, upkeep, utilities, janitorial service, etc. The airport also owns and maintains all passenger loading bridges. Let's add the following together:

$.298.20 landing fee
$.415.88 domestic arrival concourse fee ($645.28 for an int'l arrival)
$...18.34 pre-conditioned air fee for narrowbody
$.457.47 departure concourse fee (domestic or international)
$...35.00 passenger loading bridge fee for the arrival
$...35.00 passenger loading bridge fee for the departure
$...10.36 CUTE departure gate fee
$.....8.39 CUTE ticket counter usage fee per hour
------------------
$1278.64 total for one A320 turnaround flight, assuming they only use the ticket counter for one hour prior to the flight, but wait, there's more:

$70.00 parking fee for more than 2 hours on a gate, plus additional $70 for overnight parking

$300.00 major maintenance fee daily if you suffer a big mechanical while at MIA, can't ferry it out and have your maintenance done on an airport non-leased ramp (as opposed to using a company such as Avborne)

Okay, that's just for the aircraft operations. Airlines also have to pay these charges:

$20.00 airport ID Badge fee per month per badge issued
$75.00 Lost airport ID Badge fee for 1st replacement, $100 for 2nd replacement
$9.00 fingerprint fee for each employee
$25.00 for each employee parking lot decal per month
$10.00 per vehicle for an AOA decal
$10.00 per employee for attending AOA driver training
$10.00 per employee for Movement Area driver training (tugs/paymovers)
$10.00 per employee for passenger loading bridge training

Okay, airlines have to have office space, storage rooms, etc. and there are six classes of rentals in the terminal. They vary from $14.12 per square foot to $112.98 per square foot. If you want to share back offices, VIP lounges, gatehouses, curbside, baggage service offices, these are the fees:

$140.00 per month per workstation, keyboard and monitor
$165.00 per month per workstation, keyboard and monitor and firewall port
$50.00 per month per dot matrix printer
$130.00 per month for boarding pass printer/IP connection
$115.00 per month for boarding pass printer/serial connection
$100.00 per month for bag tag printer/IP connection
$85.00 per month for bag tag printer/serial connection
$150.00 per month for boarding card gate reader

Want coaxial cable in your office or workspaces? Here's the rates for that:

$35.00 per month for recovery fee
$150.00 installation fee per location
$75.00 per hour plus material at cost plus 25% for additional work
$20.00 per month per television rental equipment fee
$1000.00 per location per month plus monthly fee for unauthorized service

I won't even get into the VIP club fees or VIP club concession fees except the club concession fee is 18% of the monthly gross revenue generated from liquor sales and 10% of the monthly gross revenues generated from the sale of all other amenities granted the lessee.

That's about it for today's prices (actually March 30th's prices). MIA's fees will be going up in the future in order to pay for their Capital Improvement Program.

[Edited 2005-04-15 04:52:29]
 
njdevilsin03
Posts: 674
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:03 am

RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:02 pm

If I recall concourse C is not all common use...Continental leases 5 gates at all times. 2 for their Gulfstream ops and 3 for there CLE/IAH/EWR ops.
 
DB777
Posts: 864
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2001 1:16 pm

RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expan

Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:28 pm

I'm quoting MIA's rates and charges. CO and CO Connection (Gulfstream) are on Concourse G at MIA and every gate at MIA is common use. All Concourse G long-term leases (UA, AC, NW and TW) expired in the fall of 1986 and they were turned into common-use gates at that time, with all gate assignments made by Airside's Gate Control section. Continental and American sub-leased from Northwest on Concourse G until the long-term leases expired.
 
FA4B6
Posts: 1078
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:00 am

RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:48 pm

can we get back to speculating on what the mystery city might be?
 
Armada
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:16 pm

RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:55 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 19):
It is the way you look at it. There is a lot of traffic potential at MIA. Denver's landing fees are higher than Miami's. That doesn't stop jetBlue from flying to Denver.

Denver doesn't have a "Fort Lauderdale" at its doorstep either.

B6 is going to MIA for one reason and one reason only: FLL can't handle too much more traffic until the South runway is built.

I would also say that a good percentage of their MIA operations would come at the expense of FLL's. Stealing from Peter to pay the piper kind of deal.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26663
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:57 pm

Quoting Armada (Reply 37):
B6 is going to MIA for one reason and one reason only: FLL can't handle too much more traffic until the South runway is built.

There was never any debating of that. If there was no FLL, B6 1 would operate JFK-MIA, not JFK-FLL.
 
ScottB
Posts: 7533
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:15 pm

Quoting Lowecur (Reply 30):
Now, I'm not aware that any of the politicians feel they were betrayed. Could you point to any written article where they are pissed about this obvious misrepresentation.

Did I claim politicians felt "betrayed?" Nope. I only said that jetBlue misrepresented their intentions, period. Please stick to the facts. Whether or not politicians are annoyed by this is immaterial.

Quoting Lowecur (Reply 30):
Just what was US Airways charging to NYC before Jetblue came to town? It is my opinion that was the thrust of the 65% savings. So please give me an idea of what a pax would have been paying pre-Jetblue for a last minute walk up fare or a fare purchased without a Sat night stay 14 day advanced? Also, give me some facts on what a pax would pay pre-Jetblue on last minute walk up or a fare purchased without a Sat night 14 day advanced to Florida?

Well, perhaps if Mr. Neeleman had said "save 65% to New York City on last-minute walk-up fares" you'd have a point. But he didn't qualify his statement that way (or at least it wasn't qualified in the press release). I can't retroactively price what Delta Express's walkup fare was from SYR to MCO. But jetBlue is no bargain for $299 one-way walk-up (before taxes) from SYR to MCO when Southwest's one-way walk-up fare from BUF to MCO is $182.

Quoting Lowecur (Reply 30):
The on-time performance was mostly due to the massive delays at FLL and weather in the NE. They were just rated the worst airport for on-time performance nationwide. When you have as many flts out of NYC, BOS, IAD, LGB to FLL that Jetblue has, those numbers can get skewed.

The Northeast is notorious for bad weather. It hits everyone operating there -- US, DL, WN, CO, AA, etc. JetBlue's expansion at JFK will continue to exacerbate the delays at that airport during peak hours. That problem will not go away.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22884
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RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:25 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 23):

Why is it dumb to point out that jetBlue pulled a bait-and-switch on the politicians and FAA? They said one thing in 1999 and proceeded to do something quite different.

??? B6 only promised service to "upstate New York." No other promise was made. Until a final business plan is made (or a signed promise), everyone knows the future is uncertain. You're making strong accusations over something covered in that little "forward looking statements" at the bottom of all press releases.  bitelip 

I'd really hope B6 switches what cities they consider every few years. Only flexibility will let them survive in this tough climate.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 27):
They stated they were "considering" service to these cities, which is never a guarantee in and of itself, but this statement was certainly crafted to curry favor with politicians who answer to voters in those cities.

If a politician ever took "considering" as a promise, vote the idiot out!  hot  Besides, the promise was made before the downturn in the market.

Getting back to the article: It sounds like B6 is negotiating with airports for incentives for the E190 flights. Ok, that sounds smart and fair. If Neelman laid every card on the table when he negotiates.... I'd sell my B6 stock yesterday! Geez...

I looked at SYR on faremeasure.com and ordered by # seats/day. (Note: I don't know how often faremeasure updates their data.)

Destination Miles # pax Average fare
___________________________________
New York, NY More details 209 511 $110.76
Orlando/Kissimmee, FL More details 1,053 207 $119.72
Chicago, IL More details 607 191 $189.41
Tampa/St. Petersburg/Lakeland, FL More details 1,104 165 $123.29
Las Vegas, NV More details 2,120 128 $177.52
Atlanta, GA More details 793 119 $218.14
Ft. Lauderdale, FL More details 1,197 114 $122.45
Denver, CO More details 1,492 93 $216.69
Los Angeles, CA More details 2,351 93 $250.20
Seattle, WA More details 2,239 92 $203.71
_______________________________________________

I'm not seeing any great openings. MCO fares are already low. Chicago looks like an attractive market to break into, but B6 isn't there yet. None of the other markets seem that profitable... But Neelman would know better than I!

Quoting DB777 (Reply 33):
I don't know about other airports' fees, but here's the October 1st 2004 fees that JetBlue would pay at MIA without an incentive discount.

Dang, no wonder airports are profitable while the airlines bleed cash! Thanks DB777. Very informative.

Lightsaber
 
SilentObserver
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:45 pm

RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:29 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 39):
JetBlue's expansion at JFK will continue to exacerbate the delays at that airport during peak hours. That problem will not go away.

Scott so your blaming B6 for delays at JFK? Are you kidding me? It sounds like you work for a legacy and don't want to see competition in the marketplace. If anything has made the delays worse it would be all those flights AA and DL added in attempt to kill the competition.

Airlines like B6 are setting the example for the rest of the companies out there. To my knowledge there have only been 2 companies which have challenged the status quo in the airline business. WN and B6. They both happen to be the most successful carries in the market right now.

Simply put B6 has the best product on the market right now, why should they be allowed to expanded it to more people?

Quoting ScottB (Reply 39):
But jetBlue is no bargain for $299 one-way walk-up (before taxes) from SYR to MCO when Southwest's one-way walk-up fare from BUF to MCO is $182.

BUF is not SYR, so you can't compare. Either way both fares are easily 65% lower then the legacy walk up before B6 and WN open the routes. Last time I checked $299 is a hell of walk up fare to anywhere.
 
ScottB
Posts: 7533
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:12 pm

Quoting SilentObserver (Reply 41):
Scott so your blaming B6 for delays at JFK? Are you kidding me? It sounds like you work for a legacy and don't want to see competition in the marketplace.

Nope, I don't work for an airline at all. I think that people drink a bit too much of the blue Kool-Aid which is why I tend to tell it the way I see it even if I get flak for it. The facts are that JFK has had a delay problem in the late afternoon/early evening for decades and that's why there are slots. Adding an extra 75 arrivals & departures during those peak hours is part of JFK's delay problem. Until mid-afternoon, JFK is nowhere near as congested, and you can see that in DOT's on-time stats.

Quoting SilentObserver (Reply 41):
To my knowledge there have only been 2 companies which have challenged the status quo in the airline business. WN and B6.

I guess you need to broaden your knowledge. PeoplExpress was huge in its time, and PSA was one of the models for Southwest as a low-cost, low-fare intrastate carrier. Even AirTran has "challenged the status quo," and partisans of Frontier would argue that it has brought change to its markets. Midway (I) was a huge success as a low-cost carrier at MDW (though it failed through overly aggressive expansion).

Quoting SilentObserver (Reply 41):
Simply put B6 has the best product on the market right now

They have the trendiest product on the market right now. I can't get that excited about TV since I try to work or sleep on the plane most times I fly.

Quoting SilentObserver (Reply 41):

BUF is not SYR, so you can't compare.

That is just a cop-out. BUF is actually farther from MCO than SYR, and landing fees at BUF are higher than at SYR. And it appears B6 has quietly raised its maximum fare within the 48 contiguous states to $349 (which Southwest has not done).
 
richierich
Moderator
Posts: 3632
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:54 pm

Did I claim politicians felt "betrayed?" Nope. I only said that jetBlue misrepresented their intentions, period. Please stick to the facts. Whether or not politicians are annoyed by this is immaterial.

ScottB, you must be kidding.
It is my understanding that the original route map of intended cities from JFK was merely a glossy representation of what could be, not necessarily what it was going to be. Back in 1998 or 1999, whenever JetBlue was formed, who could have accurately predicted what the aviation scene would have looked like 5 years later? I know what 'Bait and switch' is and I think you have succeeded in misapplying this term with a very serious accusation. If JetBlue had followed that original list of cities and ignored all other opportunities, they'd have never made their 5th birthday! I believe the only 'agreement' was for JetBlue to service upstate NY within its first three years, in exchange for slot exemptions at JFK - this arrangement was fulfilled when B6 went to SYR some time in 2001. All of the other cities you listed are merely examples of where JetBlue could have opportunities. As with anything as fluid as the airline industry, these things change and airlines have to chase all revenue opportunities.
 
User avatar
BNE
Posts: 2928
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2000 9:37 pm

RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:02 pm

I guess Jetblue are trying to get better fees from SYR before the E190s so that they might have an excuse to change from the A-320 to the E-190 on the SYR-JFK route.
 
FA4B6
Posts: 1078
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:00 am

RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:23 pm

Quoting BNE (Reply 44):
I guess Jetblue are trying to get better fees from SYR before the E190s so that they might have an excuse to change from the A-320 to the E-190 on the SYR-JFK route.

why? SYR flights are consistently full. Why put a 190 on the route, unless they plan on adding more frequency.
 
KALB
Posts: 564
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2000 12:33 pm

RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:38 pm

To my knowledge WN has not complained about landing fees at ALB, and they are increasing their presence at Albany International. There are currently 3 daily non-stops to MCO (up from 2) and in June they will begin 2X day service to MDW (about time!).
 
richierich
Moderator
Posts: 3632
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:22 pm

why? SYR flights are consistently full. Why put a 190 on the route, unless they plan on adding more frequency.

I think SYR will get the E190s eventually, as will all the upstate markets for JetBlue. I agree that it will basically be to augment current A320 service, not necessarily replace it (although, conceivably 2 E190 flights could replace 1 A320 flight, etc.)
 
FA4B6
Posts: 1078
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:00 am

RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:28 pm

Quoting Richierich (Reply 47):
why? SYR flights are consistently full. Why put a 190 on the route, unless they plan on adding more frequency.

I think SYR will get the E190s eventually, as will all the upstate markets for JetBlue. I agree that it will basically be to augment current A320 service, not necessarily replace it (although, conceivably 2 E190 flights could replace 1 A320 flight, etc.)

yea but wouldnt taking away 3 A320's to replace it with 6 E190's just add more pressure to T6 at JFK? Things are cramped as they are. I know they need the 320's elsewhere, but it just seems silly. 3 R/T's seem to be good enough for right now, unless they add a 4th and that 4th is a 190.
 
User avatar
ERJ170
Posts: 5946
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

RE: JetBlue Says SYR Too Expensive, Wants To Expand

Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:36 pm

Quoting Richierich (Reply 47):
(although, conceivably 2 E190 flights could replace 1 A320 flight, etc.)

Wouldn't it be more like 3 E90 would replace 2 A320.. so if SYR has 6 A320 flights, they would get 9 E90 flights..

If the E90 has ~100 and the A320 has ~150.. that would make better sense.. unless B6 plans to add capacity..

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