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ual747den
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Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:01 pm

Frontier has applied for new service to Mexico and is going to be starting charters for Apple from Midway.

Frontier will be doing a charter service for Apple Vacations, which flies out of Midway. On the Mexico front, today Frontier announced that it has filed for permission to fly non-stop to Puerto Vallarta from Salt Lake City and Kansas City and Non-Stop from Denver to Cozumel.
 
hawk44
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:15 pm

Does spirit do flights for apple charters?

Hawk44
 
jmc1975
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:18 pm

Ahhh...Bummer! When you said New Mexico, I was thinking they are stating service to Santa Fe, Roswell, Farmington or Gallup.  banghead 
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:24 pm

UAL747DEN:

Charters for Apple out of MDW? Charters to where?

I've read about the new Mexican service:

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/fligh...4-19-frontier-flights_x.htm?csp=34

But not about charters for Apple. Do you have a link?

cheers

mariner
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:28 pm

Mexico has been a gold mine (with the lone exception being AUS-CUN) for Frontier. Hopefully we'll see a few more U.S gateway cities to Mexico within the next couple of years. I won't say which one I'd like to see, but you guys can probably guess that.  Smile
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:31 pm

MSYtristar:

I never understood what happened with AUS-CUN. I wonder why they didn't just drop it back to Saturday only service?

And yes, I'm still hoping for MSY-CUN and I've added one to my wish list - RSW-CUN.

cheers

mariner
 
BA
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:33 pm

It would be nice if they start a Caribbean destination soon, Jamaica would be nice...
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:56 pm

Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 2):
Ahhh...Bummer! When you said New Mexico, I was thinking they are stating service to Santa Fe, Roswell, Farmington or Gallup.

I like the idea of Farmington service as well Big grin
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:02 pm

Mariner, I have no idea what happened with AUS-CUN. Honestly, it did horribly from day one. Since the route is long gone I have no problem in saying that most flights only had like ten to twenty people on them in both directions. Talk about a non rev's dream and a revenue analyst's nightmare!
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:04 pm

Seriously though what are the chances of Mainline Intra-Colorado routes?
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:11 pm

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 9):
Seriously though what are the chances of Mainline Intra-Colorado routes?

With Frontier metal on a scheduled basis? Not that great I'd say. You can see a 318/319 in Grand Junction every now and again, but that's for diversion purposes only.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:18 pm

Probably the summer storms I guess. What about Jet Express?
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:19 pm

There are not enough Horizon CR7 aircraft to go around for any real expansion of the JetExpress service currently.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:29 pm

...Extra Great Lakes service? Big grin
 
SilentObserver
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple V

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:45 pm

Last time I was over @ ORD (last week) there were a bunch of Apple Vacation planes. Apple also runs it's USA3000 service out of ORD. Seems odd that they are not talking about ops from MDW. (I've seen odder things before though.)

Slightly off topic (a bit related), but UA has a e-fare from MDW to MEX on TED. After reading this thread, I had to investigate because I was not aware of any MDW-MEX service, let alone on TED. Yay, for UA trying to fill those TED seats to IAD with people trying to get to Mexico. I thought perhaps we had reached true insanity where TED was now mirrioring UAs bread and butter routes.

It is interesting how Frontier sees a MCI-MEX market, but no LCC sees a Chicago to anywhere in Mexico market.
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:56 pm

SilentObserver:

Quoting SilentObserver (Reply 14):
It is interesting how Frontier sees a MCI-MEX market, but no LCC sees a Chicago to anywhere in Mexico market.

If you mean Chicago/MDW, I'm not sure that they can.

Under the terms of the US/Mexico bilateral treaty, only two airlines from either country can serve any ciity pair between the two countries.

Note that it is "city pair" not "airport pair". So, for example, IAD and DCA would be considered "one city". If two US airlines are flying IAD/CUN, then no airline could get DCA/CUN.

So with ORD and MDW - they are "one city". If two airlines fly ORD/CUN, no airline can get MDW/CUN.

I'm sure there are routes that are not fully allocated - MDW/SJD or MDW/MZT perhaps, or even MDW/PVR - but which airline would fly 'em?

cheers

mariner
 
nosedive
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:57 pm

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 13):
...Extra Great Lakes service? 

OH BOY! More props in DRO!
 
SilentObserver
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:59 pm

I forgot it was city not airport, not thinking correctly, thanks for the correction. I assume charter does not count against this, i.e. Apple Vacations.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 15):
I'm sure there are routes that are not fully allocated - MDW/SJD or MDW/MZT perhaps, or even MDW/PVR - but which airline would fly 'em?

I looked into it a bit for Chicago

UA
ORD to MEX and CZM.

ATA
MDW to CUN, GDL.

MEXICANA
ORD to MEX, GDL, MTY.

AA
ORD to CUN, PVR, SJD.

I am surprised UA is so light actually. Since AA and Mexicana codeshare they have 6 destinations covered. I would think a LLC service to PVR or even SJD might be profitable, should be able to undercut AA on those tickets. Not sure you could make MTY into a profit, low demand. I guess Apple Vacations has the market cornered for vacation travelers since no LCC flies the routes.

Sorry this was a Frontier thread.
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:25 pm

Quoting SilentObserver (Reply 17):
Sorry this was a Frontier thread.

I can take it back there in a trice.  Smile

Quoting SilentObserver (Reply 17):
I am surprised UA is so light actually.

Over the past twenty years or so, United has seemed somewhat ambivalent about Mexico. The only service from Denver was (I think) the code share with Mexicana.

This left the Mexican resorts wide open, and Frontier - to the surprise of many of us - jumped in a couple of years ago with a 3 x weekly to CUN and a 1 x weekly to MZT. They had rights to SJD, but didn't even use them in that first season.

Look at 'em now. Which is precisely what United did, and their eyes got very green and greedy.

They've started DEN/CUN, DEN/SJD, DEN/ZIH and DEN/PVR. But, as I say, even though Mexicana dropped their code share, United still doesn't serve DEN/MEX.

Same is true of Delta at SLC. They had ignored Mexico for years, but after Frontier started SLC/CUN - and Delta saw how well it was doing - they jumped in with SLC/CUN and SLC/SJD.

None of this helps you in Chicago.

Well, the big one - CHI/CUN - is gone, to ATA and AA. I would agree about PVR and perhaps SJD, but I think the majors would like to feed those through their western hubs.

MTY? I doubt it. AWA is having trouble with MTY just from PHX, and you'd think that would do well.

Why not LCC from Chicago? ATA does, and thus, by default, I suppose Southwest.

But Airtran is licking its wounds about Chicago, so who else does that leave? JetBlue has not ventured to Chicago yet, let alone south of the border.

Sorry.

cheers

mariner
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:37 pm

So does this make CUN officially a F9 mini-hub then?
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:48 pm

DLKAPA:

I don't think so, because I think it is purely O&D - I don't think they can have connecting pax.

If you wanted to fly BNA/SLC I suppose you could go through CUN, but the timing might be lousy.  Smile

To be a true hub, I think you have to be able to connect, but:

If Frontier flew DEN/CCS with a technical stop (refuel) at CUN - that's okay, under the bilateral.

If Frontier flew MCI/AUA with a technical stop (refuel) at CUN - that's okay, too.

But I don't know if MCI orginating pax could transfer to the CCS flight, or if DEN originating pax could transfer to the AUA flight.

Theoretically, if Frontier has the rights to fly MCI/CCS and DEN/AUA the transfers should be possible, but I don't know how Mexico would feel.

cheers

mariner
 
146crew
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:44 pm

Frontier is replacing Ryan International Airlines out of MDW to CUN. Because of the generally lower inlcome bracket people are in in that area it was hare for Apple to sell 220 seats 5x weekly without offering a huge discount or sale. By teaming with Frontier, Apple has less risk and can offer better service with Foxy F9!
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:59 am

That would be terrific, but I still can't find a link. There's nothing about it in the Frontier/Apple press release:

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...story/03-21-2005/0003236386&EDATE=

And I'm not sure where Frontier would get the aircraft - with the retirement of the 737's, the fleet has to be flying at the max right now.

cheers

mariner
 
146crew
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:18 am

Apple Vacations sent a letter to all travel agents in the Chicago Area. Sorry, but I don't have anything to link to.
 
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ual747den
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:26 am

Mariner my information is from a direct source within F9. This information was printed in a manager information post. Have I ever been wrong about F9???
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:36 am

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 24):
Have I ever been wrong about F9???

My memory is not so long!  Smile

My point is that if two of you guys know this, then you would think that it would see some sort of official light of day.

However, who knows? I have just learned that Apple Vacations is dropping Allegiant for DEN/CZM.

This would suggest to me that some Apple Vacation stuff for DEN/CZM will come Frontier's way, so it could be as true of MDW/CUN, too.

BUT with all that said, then:

(a) it would have to be charter because MDW/CUN is not available for scheduled.

(b) I'm surprised that Frontier would do a "regular" charter. Not unhappy, just surprised.

(c) an earlier question - what aircraft woiuld they use? The fleet has to be tight.

cheers

mariner
 
146crew
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:41 pm

Midway will be an A319 Y132 CHARTER. Below is the tentative schedule effective 6/4/05.

SA)">F9 8533 Depart MDW 6:35am Arrive CUN 9:55am Frequency SA) and Rheintalflug (Austria)">WE SA SU
SA)">F9 8534 Depart CUN 10:50am Arrive MDW 2:35pm Frequency SA) and Rheintalflug (Austria)">WE SA SU

Denver will be scheduled flights and Apple will purchase a block of seats.
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:53 pm

146CREW:

This is all fascinating stuff, if only because it is so weird!

I can see an aircraft being available for the Saturday/Sunday flights, but Wednesday has me scratching my head a bit.

And who - or what - is Rheintalflug, and what does it mean in this enterprise?

I did a Google search - Rheintalflug - and eventually arrived at Austrian Airlines.

 confused 

cheers

mariner
 
airplaneboy
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:58 pm

Mariner- I'm with you on the aircraft utilization. I thought that with 3 new mainline cities coming online next month and in June (DTW, CAK, SAT) as well as the increase in west coast frequencies, we'd be quite "tight" with the availability for aircraft. I'm glad to see that we're pursuing a diverse flying network that includes charter flying.

146CREW- Thanks for the information.

I wonder how many RON's we'll have in CUN with the new charter.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Frontier Starting New Mexico Service & Apple Vacat

Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:58 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 27):
And who - or what - is Rheintalflug, and what does it mean in this enterprise?

I did a Google search - Rheintalflug - and eventually arrived at Austrian Airlines.

Yet another prime example of why the Coding that is used with these forums really needs to be looked at.

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