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RyanAFAMSP
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Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Thu May 05, 2005 1:56 pm

I was interested because I saw this picture in the database of a non-fan ex-TWA 707-331 still in service. It is on departure from Palma de Mallorca in 2003. It is mis-labeled as being Rolls-Royce powered, when actually those are JT4A-9s I believe.


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Does anyone know if this aircraft is stilll flying, or if other turbojet 707s are still in service? Does it have sister-ships of the same type? How often do they fly? Do any carry passengers? I believe it is the only 707-300 (not -300B or C) still flying in the world.

If anyone has any other pictures, please post!
 
crownvic
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Thu May 05, 2005 2:42 pm

That is without a doubt the most awesome airliner still in existence. This past year was really bad for the last turbojet large airframe aircraft. The "Vomit Comet", an early model KC-135A and the B-52 were the last of the operating turbojets that NASA operated until late 2004. The IAF does have some servicable turbojet powered 707 airframes, but their operational information is not easily tracked. There is a program that has started though to re-engine the last of these turbojets with JT3D's. Ironically, this engine is also obsolete. Additional information would be welcome!
 
777ER
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Thu May 05, 2005 2:57 pm

Off topic, but still involves the B707, are there any in musuems? I think Boeing has one at BFI
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leelaw
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Thu May 05, 2005 3:17 pm

37 707-420s were assembled with RR-Conway Turbofans but the nacelles were slightly different:


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trident3
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Thu May 05, 2005 3:18 pm

There is a 707-400 in the RAF cosford museum

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LPLAspotter
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Thu May 05, 2005 6:52 pm

I remember very well flying from CDG to DHA back in the 1970s on Air France. Sitting in the last row offered a good view of the "pipes" awesome airplane.

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duke
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Thu May 05, 2005 8:42 pm

Well, there are lots of 707s of most makes (including Air Force Ones) in museums and on display. The IAF would be the last airworthy turbojet 707s, but I am unable to get info as to whether any are still in service as such. At least one was re-engined with JT3D turbofans, but I don't know if the rest of the turbojet fleet is currently re-engined, stored or what have you. I wonder if the one in the pic is still flying.

Note also that the Conway-powered 707 was an early turbofan, though the "fan" was a very low bypass-ratio compressor of several stages. It looked similar to the JT3C and JT4A nacelles, but the sound supressor was corrugated all around rather than a collection of tubes.

[Edited 2005-05-05 13:46:04]
 
CV990
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Thu May 05, 2005 8:52 pm

Hi!

That's a great picture! I think you might be right, only the israelis might have a few still flying in ECM configuration. I know that until a few years ago there was one 707-321 from GE based in Mojave that used to fly. It was in excelent condition but I think it's now wfu!
I also rewinding my mind remember very well a few 707-300/400's flying to LIS. I saw SN ones, EL AL, Varig, and during almost all winter of 1980 or 1981 a British Airtours 707-436 comming everyday from LHR, G-ARRC!!!!
regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
duke
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Thu May 05, 2005 9:00 pm

CV990 - the Mojave GE 707-321 (s/n 17608 N707GE) is WFU and parts have been taken off. However, they are trying to set up a museum at Mojave and it might just happen that it gets preserved there (this would be fitting, as this would be the last turbojet airliner in service in North America, a very old plane, hearkening back to the "golden age" of Pan Am. I hope they would be able to reassemble it and paint it in Pan Am colors!)
 
lat41
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Thu May 05, 2005 9:51 pm

There are a lot of its contemporary the DC-8 still flying in freighter configuration but ditto for the 8. Are there any of those still around? Same engines that I know of.

Cheers
 
bmacleod
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Thu May 05, 2005 10:01 pm

I remember turbojets were quite unpopular due to excessive loudness.
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
duke
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Thu May 05, 2005 10:11 pm

All flying DC-8s use either the JT3D turbofan or have been re-engined with the CFM56. There are some derelict turbojet DC-8s which would surely never fly again. There is maybe ONE stored ex-Andes Airlines DC-8 with turbojets, but I don't expect it to fly again either. And there is one displayed in China, I think.
 
tsnamm
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Thu May 05, 2005 10:34 pm

I believe Airborne Express still operates DC-8 freighters w/turbojets, as well as DC9-10's w/turbojets...they may be hushkitted but I'm not certain...since they've been acquired by DHL they might upgrade them to turbofans like DHL's DC-8's, whom I think they acquired from Flying Tigers/Fed Ex after that acquisition. Fed Ex had no interest in the DC-8's, even though re-engined the airframe was an excellent freighter...I think UPS still has some turbofanned DC-8's, but I think they are trying to replace them w/757's, even though their payload is less. As far as 707's go...a lot of Latin American carriers used them as freighters until very recently...somebody based at MIA should be able to tell us if they still see them there...Challenge Air Cargo used to have one, I used to see it here @JFK...
 
RyanAFAMSP
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Thu May 05, 2005 11:43 pm

Yeah I'm sure it would be extremely difficult to get information on airplanes operated by the Israel Air Force - just because of security reasons.

They have long been an operator of straight pipe 707s. There were two at MHV for years that were 707-131s - the original straight pipe JT3C-6 water injected airplanes. They were sold to Charlotte Aircraft and were MHV residents since the late 1980s.

Now as far as the re-engining goes - how do you know this? That seems so bizarre - just as re-engining is unbelievably expensive, and as someone said the JT3D turbofan is soooo obsolete. Has anyone seen a re-engined IAF airplane flying? What is it designated - a 707-300(B)?

Thanks for all the good feedback.
 
waterpolodan
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Fri May 06, 2005 12:42 am

Tsnamm, I'm pretty sure the Airborne Express (and ATI and formerly Fine Air) DC8's you are referring to are actually turbofans as someone else mentioned. They have the JT3D low bypass ratio engine that is so narrow that it looks like a turbojet, but it most deffinately is not. The same goes for the DC9-10, it was never built with a turbo jet engine as far as I know, just low bypass ratio fan engines. Thanks to college I've been missing out on seeing the MIA traffic this past year, but last year I clearly remember seeing fairly high numbers of the DC8's with both the CFM conversion and the older JT3's flying for various cargo airlines, but I haven't seen a 707 of any sort other than military flying into MIA for a number of years...
 
tsnamm
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Fri May 06, 2005 12:52 am

Thanks Waterpolodan...I remember visiting MIA back in the early 90's before they renovated that corner of the airport where Challenge built a brand new cargo building, and seeing all those old propliners parked over there...DC6's and DC7's etc...plus all those converted 707 freighters...Equatoriana used to have one painted all these bright colors, and I think VIASA used to have a 707 or DC8 freighter too...interesting spotting!!
 
waterpolodan
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Fri May 06, 2005 12:57 am

If you're in the miami area and you want to see the same sort of planes that used to sit at corrosion corner at MIA, alot of old propliners and jets in the process of being scrapped or bought and sold by collectors are over at Opa Locka airport... it's worth a drive for sure! I was just looking through the photo database and apparently a gorgeous Saudi Arabian Airlines 707 visited MIA in 2000, unfortunately I missed that event but does anyone know why it was there and/or when the airline retired that type?

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edited to add: check out this pic of a partially disassembled RR conway engine... pretty cool!

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Photo © Fabry Michael





[Edited 2005-05-05 18:10:53]
 
aeroweanie
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Fri May 06, 2005 1:25 am

Turbojet powered aircraft don't have a hope of meeting the last noise regulations. However, if they are owned by a military service, they are exempted from FAR 36/ICAO Annex 36.

Regarding the photo - look carefully at the #4 nacelle and you'll see a P&W sticker. The engines are most likely JT4As.
 
crownvic
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Fri May 06, 2005 3:21 pm

AeroWeanie...If the a/c pictured is a 707-436, they are most definitely RR Conways. The daisy petal exhaust and RR style cascades reversers are also significant.

As for the conversion from JT3C turbojets on the IAF 707's to JT3D fanjets, I read this either in Flight Int'l or AW&ST in the past few months. Just don't remember where exactly. The cost of this conversion is probably quite low considering the following:
1) Many turbojet 707's were converted to fanjets during the 1960's so the paperwork is already in place with the FAA/CAA
2) During the 1980's, the US Military bought up a massive amount of JT3D fan jet powered 707 airframes for the KC-135A re-engining program. Many of the KC-135's that were converted to JT3D fan jets are now getting re-engined with high bypass CFM-56 engines. What this more than likely means is that there are now a hoard of the earlier generation JT3D turbo fans piling up with the U.S. military where their future applications are practically useless. While I have no confirmation of the following, if the IAF is seeking JT3D's for their old 707's, I am sure that they could get these engines for pennies on the dollar from the U.S. government who would love to be rid of them. The second hand market for JT3D's has really dried up as there are only a handful of the 707 airframes still flying.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Fri May 06, 2005 8:34 pm

If you look under the inlet you will see the oil cooler inlet. This is unique to the JT-4 and J-57 P&W turbo-jet engines. I flew the "steam-jets" on the KC-135A for a lot of hours. The JT-4s on B-707/720, DC-8/9 had noise surppressors the military J-57s didn't have.
 
aeroweanie
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Sat May 07, 2005 1:30 am

Quoting Crownvic (Reply 18):
The daisy petal exhaust and RR style cascades reversers are also significant.

From the angle of the photo, it is hard to tell if they are daisy petal exhausts or the P&W style tubes. I don't see any cascade reversers. As KC135TipBoom points out, you can see the oil cooler inlet below the main inlet. And, I still see a P&W sticker on the #4 nacelle. I think the photo is misidentified - I sent the photographer an e-mail regarding this.
 
soundtrack
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Sat May 07, 2005 1:58 am

ANY pax 707's today (not VIP) besides the German Luftwaffe???

I thought of starting another thread - but since this is close will add to this interesting topic.
 
UK_Dispatcher
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Sat May 07, 2005 2:15 am

Quoting Soundtrack (Reply 21):
ANY pax 707's today (not VIP) besides the German Luftwaffe???

Now only LADE in Argentina. These a/c are not currently flying regular scheduled services, although may be back in the Summer.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Sat May 07, 2005 2:31 am

The German Luftwaffe does not fly 707s anymore. They sitched to A310s a couple of years ago and the 707s have all been sold.

You may find 707s in the Middle East and Africa working as Freighters and just recently SAHA Airlines of Iran crashed (which was believed to be the last pax 707) on a landing accident in THR. So, the chances of flying in that great aircraft are next to nil.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Happy-flier
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Sat May 07, 2005 4:48 am

What a fantastic thread, guys!!

I darn near freaked out when I saw this picture, and was going to start the exact same topic, then I saw this thread already well and active.

A straight-pipe 707 flying in this century qualifies as an historically significant photograph.

I've obsessed about straight-pipe 707s for years - mainly because I was sure that they were an extinct species, but also because I never saw one in my life, nor did I ever get a chance to hear a good-quality recording of the JT4A's in operation. Imagine - this fellow could have filmed this on video!

Simply amazing, and truly my "Airliners.net" moment of all time.

Cheers
May the wind be always at your back . . . except during takeoff & landing.
 
sovietjet
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Sat May 07, 2005 5:14 am

Speaking of sounds...I really want to be able to hear a straight pipe JT3c or JT4A or even a Conway. Anyone have any recordings sounds, anything? Any downloads for Flight Simulator close enough? Any old movies with old B-52s or 707s out there? Do they sound as loud as Tu-134s? I hope someone films a RAF VC-10 so I can hear it.
 
Happy-flier
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Sat May 07, 2005 6:02 am

Sovietjet - I second those sentiments.

I've been trying to find real recordings of JT4A spool-ups, fly-bys, landings, etc., but it is incredibly difficult. I am positive that such recordings were made, especially when the aircraft were being test-flown by Boeing, but try and find these films now ... it's awfully hard.

The thing that sends shivers down my spine just to think about, is the fact that when this 707-329 took off in 2003 from that Spanish airport, there could, in theory, have been someone spotting there with a digital videocam and that mysterious sound - completely unknown to probably about two generations of us here - could have been recorded!

I'm also really hoping that someone, somewhere might post a video taken on T/O out a DC-8 or 707 window on www.flightlevel350.com ... Big grin

It pays to be an optimist.
May the wind be always at your back . . . except during takeoff & landing.
 
Happy-flier
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Sat May 07, 2005 10:33 am

In writing this, I realize that there will likely be two groups of readers: those for whom this topic has no special significance, and those who are as fascinated by this picture and this plane as I am.

Ever since seeing this photo in the database today, I am thinking of nothing else. I feel as though a piece of intangible history has been pulled out from under the sands of time, thanks to the completely unique phenomenon of a JT4A-powered, 1st-generation "707 Intercontinental" actually taking off in the year 2003. The date alone would mean that this aircraft is at least 40 years old; the last -420 series (and remember, the -420 was the RR-Conway-powered model) rolled out in 1963; later birds were JT3D-powered and had the updated wing.

Again, I'll repeat what I wrote earlier: This photograph is historically significant. It is fair to say that never in my life did I expect to see a JT4A-powered 707 flying past the 1980s.

That said, I have on occasion wondered why it is that it should be so strange; after all, we have Lockheed Electras and Convair 580s - granted, turboprops - dating back to the 1950s that are still flying today. So, why not one of the most significant airliners in the history of passenger jet travel - a model type that broke onto the scene in the very pioneering days of trans-continental passenger jet travel?

Thank you, Jeroen, thank you, and once more - THANK YOU!!!
May the wind be always at your back . . . except during takeoff & landing.
 
crownvic
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Sat May 07, 2005 3:19 pm

Just some misunderstanding here everyone... I was actually referring to the photo above AeroWeanie's post that is a 707-436. The picture of the 707 on the opening topic is of course a Pratt powered 707. The IAF never purchased RR powered 707's to the best of my memory. Sorry fo rthe confusion!
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Sat May 07, 2005 3:30 pm

Did anyone notice that the picture in the first post is actually a KC-707, with JT-4s? You can see the air refueling boom .
 
bennett123
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Sat May 07, 2005 3:57 pm

Sad to see the B707-436 rotting at Entebbe.

Why don't they break it up.
 
Ned Kelly
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Sat May 07, 2005 7:07 pm

Great topic, I miss these jets so much and was amazed when I saw this photo & that the IAF still had them in service (well at least in 2003).

Quoting RyanAFAMSP (Thread starter):
I was interested because I saw this picture in the database of a non-fan ex-TWA 707-331

The aircraft (top picture) is a 707-329 and was originally delivered to Sabena. If you click on the c/n number you will see one other photo of her in SN c/s.
 
eilennaei
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RE: Turbojet 707 Still In Service?

Sun May 08, 2005 8:30 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 23):
You may find 707s in the Middle East and Africa working as Freighters and just recently SAHA Airlines of Iran crashed (which was believed to be the last pax 707

I you count heads of state and the set as pax, there's an active '74 707 passenger a/c in Europe.


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