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lazyshaun
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LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sat May 07, 2005 11:05 pm

Hi,
when are LH planning to retire their A300's?
to me A300's are old aircraft and an airline like LH have many new aircraft on order.
Or are they doing fine for them?
Are they old yet?

thanks for any help
I came. I saw. I conquered
 
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B742
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sat May 07, 2005 11:16 pm

Lufthansa has 14 A300's! (according to Airfleets)

11x A300-603
3x A300-605R

The oldest aircraft was delivered to the airline in 1987, and the newest in 2002 (ex EK)!

LH should keep the A330-200's that they are phasing out and replace the A300's with them!

Rob!
 
Scorpio
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sat May 07, 2005 11:30 pm

Quoting B742 (Reply 1):
LH should keep the A330-200's that they are phasing out and replace the A300's with them!

The A330-200 is a long-hauler. LH uses its A300s ùainly on short hops. Replacing it there with the 332 would not make much sense.
 
TriStar500
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sat May 07, 2005 11:38 pm

There are no official plans to replace the A300's for the time being. While some aircraft of the original batch (delivered in 1987/88) recently had to undergo ageing aircraft modification due to their unproportional high number of cycles, which they have accumulated on the short-haul domestic and European network, they are still an integral part of the short-haul fleet.
Inside LH, they are often colloquially referred to as the "Kont-Schaufel", which loosely translated to "equipment for the haulage of the maximum number of passengers on short slot-restricted routes".

Considering the high technical standard at Lufthansa Technik, these aircraft can hardly be described as old, unreliable or unsafe. An airline does not have to roll over its fleet every two or three years just because the a.net crowds gets bored of it.  Wink
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dutchjet
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sat May 07, 2005 11:48 pm

While the LH A300s still have many good years of flying left, LH has been thinking about a replacement for years - and the problem is that nothing is available that can directly replace the A300s. LH looked at the A332/A333 as an A300/A310 replacement but found it not a practical option - the A330 types are too big, too heavy (even in the lightest versions the A330 is too much aircraft for this LH mission) and are not optimized for short haul flying such as the intra-germany and european regional routes for which the A300 is utilized. The A330 as has a massive wingspan which can become a problem in the "European or Domestic Areas" of some airports.

LH looked at the 753 as a possible A300 successor - it was the closest fit around - good for short haul and lots of pax capacity. LH even borrowed a couple of 753s from Condor to try on shorthaul german routes to test the type; LH seemed moderately pleased by the 753 but passenger reaction was not good and LH never ordered 753s.

Now that the A310s are no longer an issue - LH has indirectly replaced the A310s by picking up one extra A300 (the ex-EK example - LH was supposed to get a second ex-EK A300 at one time but I guess that did not work out) and juggling is longhaul fleet and some aircraft allocations (the new A333s and A346s gave LH some more flexibility in medium to long haul flying), so the short haul A300 remains the only issue.

I am sure that LH will give the 787-3 a serious look. Boeing has nothing else to offer; and Airbus has nothing new either - Airbus has proposed an A330Lite (that project was called different things over the years) and LH had no interest and the A358/9 proposals are far too big and have far too much range to be used as A300 replacements.
 
LeonB1985
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sat May 07, 2005 11:49 pm

I flew on two LH A300-600s (D-AIAP, -AI) back in 2000 (my first widebody flights!) and found them to be pleasant and comfortable aircraft, particularly on the short hop from LHR to FRA. The interiors were in pretty good nick, though admittedly it was around five years ago.
From the construction site that is better-known as London Heathrow Airport
 
PADSpot
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 1:19 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 4):
Now that the A310s are no longer an issue - LH has indirectly replaced the A310s by picking up one extra A300 (the ex-EK example - LH was supposed to get a second ex-EK A300 at one time but I guess that did not work out) and juggling is longhaul fleet and some aircraft allocations (the new A333s and A346s gave LH some more flexibility in medium to long haul flying), so the short haul A300 remains the only issue.

The A310 were mostly equipped and used for medium haul trips to the Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan area, North Africa, the Mideast and the US East Coast. Although a few were down-weighted in order save landing charges on short haul routes within western and central Europe. The A300 complemented the A310 to Africa and the Mideast temporarily, but not to a great extend.

To cut a long story short: The A330 superseded the A310 on medium distances, while the A300 is now doing the the wiebody-short-haul trips on its own. I don't think the ex-EK A300 was an replacement or amendment, because at the same time some A300 were grounded at e.g. HAM, FRA and afaik SXF and thus there was no capacity problem!

BTW: They are also frequently used as spare planes and in case high demand due to fairs and other big events (e.g. during the Cebit in Hanover or the last Pope's passing)

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 4):
I am sure that LH will give the 787-3 a serious look. Boeing has nothing else to offer; and Airbus has nothing new either - Airbus has proposed an A330Lite (that project was called different things over the years) and LH had no interest and the A358/9 proposals are far too big and have far too much range to be used as A300 replacements.

That is actually what I am talking about since weeks here on this forum. The A330 is 30 tons heavier and packed with stuff you really don't need on trips around 1000nm and shorter. (large tanks and galleys, long-haul-optimized structure etc ...). Maybe a A350-based successor could reduce this issue to, say, 15 tons, but even then it will be at least 10-15 tons heavier than the the 787-3. And weight wouldn't be the only advantage of 787-3 which is a completely newly designed airplane as opposed to the A350.

Here Airbus should really drop the A350 and develop a short and medium haul widebody, lighter and superior to the 787-3. But the current situation is the best opportunity for LH to wait and finally stick to their 2-supplier strategy and buy the 787-3 when the times comes.
 
Rj111
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 1:32 am

"Kont-Schaufel", which loosely translated to "equipment for the haulage of the maximum number of passengers on short slot-restricted routes".

Two words translates to all that?! That's German efficiency for ya!
 
PADSpot
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 1:44 am

directly translated it means "Cont-Shovel". (--> Continental-Shovel, which should be to the same degree metaphoric in English as well as in German)

[Edited 2005-05-07 18:49:35]
 
mrniji
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 1:47 am

I have flewn tha LH A300 very, very often on KOnt-Schaufel routes (upto recently before I declared an unilateral LH boycott) - the a/c are in a terrific condition. Fantastic, appear to me like brandnew.. considering LHs high maintenance standard, safety etc, no need to retire them.. an aeroplane can go ages if well-maintained!
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
Birdwatching
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 1:49 am

Quoting TriStar500 (Reply 3):
An airline does not have to roll over its fleet every two or three years just because the a.net crowds gets bored of it.

Truer word was never spoken, man.
All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
 
pilotaydin
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 1:57 am

leave the A300s, it's one of the only ones i can get on, mainly between MUC and FRA. She's a beauty and we'd all miss the engine noise if they were taken away hehe.

I think some of their A300s are coming to Onur?
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
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jorge1812
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 2:05 am

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 11):

I think some of their A300s are coming to Onur?

One was stored at FRA in full Onur livery, but don't know if it's already deliverd. There's another thread on this subject. Last Warning For Onur Air (by OO-VEG May 7 2005 in Civil Aviation)

Georg.
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 2:06 am

The same controversial discussion is going on in airliners.de and there is speculation about LH buying the 787. With Condor having to replace their 767s + replacement of the A300 and growth, this would make a sizeable fleet of around 25-30 for starters and since early delivery positions for the 787 are becoming scarce we might see an order from LH for the 787 may be within this year.

Besides that, I regularly fly on the 300 and there is nothing to complain. For C Class travelers - try to get a center aisle seat, this way you make sure that the seat next to yours is vacant.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
N1120A
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 2:08 am

Quoting B742 (Reply 1):
LH should keep the A330-200's that they are phasing out and replace the A300's with them!

The A330 is an absolute dog on short haul/high frequency flights. All kinds of reliability problems (see MH and QF) and too much weight

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 4):
- and the problem is that nothing is available that can directly replace the A300s.

The 783 is the ideal A300 replacement. Lighter, lower costs, more cargo, same passenger loads.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Phaeton
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 2:20 am

Some people on this forum have suggested that LH is to completely phase out their A300 fleet and replace them with A320/A321 with higher frequencies. This is not likely to happen because of slot restrictions in FRA as well as in LHR. In a couple of years time the 787 would seem like a good replacement and would give LH a better performance than the A350.

On another note, LH also said that they want to keep their 737 fleet in the near future, although the oldest aircraft is already 19 years old. The chief fleet planer of LH said, that they'll rather wait for the next generation of A320 or 737 and order that. LH has also shown some interest in the 747Adv.
"History will be kind to me for I intend to write it.", Winston Churchill
 
N1120A
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 2:23 am

Quoting Phaeton (Reply 15):
Some people on this forum have suggested that LH is to completely phase out their A300 fleet and replace them with A320/A321 with higher frequencies. This is not likely to happen because of slot restrictions in FRA as well as in LHR

Slot restrictions are not the only problem with sending A32S out. You also have the problems with cargo weight on a narrowbody floor. LH moves a lot of cargo on the A300 routes, something only the 783 would be able to keep up.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 2:53 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):

I can confirm that, as a frequent cargo user onLH4744 FRA/LHR etd 2135 there are constantlky problems when that flight is operated by 32S. Luckily, in thie current summer schedule its an AB6 most of the times.

The 783 would be a great replacement.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
columba
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 3:26 am

Let´s speculate :

1) Lets assume that the new Berlin Airport will be open in 2010, and LH will offer some long haul flights from Berlin, at least to some American East Coast Cities like Boston and New York and maybe to Asia. In Addition to LH we willl also see some other carriers who will will fly to Berlin directly. Will that make the A300 obsolete on the FRA-TXL-FRA route ?

2) The new runway in FRA will be build and more slots out of FRA will be available , could the A300 at least on some routes be replaced with two A320s ? Will an A300 sized aircraft make sense for only a few routes like FRA-LHR and FRA-ATH ?
Or could these routes flown by an A330-300 instead if you don´t want to buy extar a new aircraft for only 2-3 routes and you need the cargo capacity and also fly to a very slot restricted airport like LHR ?

I want to make clear that I really hope for the 787-3 as a A300 replacement, but I am not completely convinced that we will see that. At the moment I would say the chance are 70:30 that we will see the 787 as a A300 replacement.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
N1120A
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 3:31 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 18):
1) Lets assume that the new Berlin Airport will be open in 2010, and LH will offer some long haul flights from Berlin, at least to some American East Coast Cities like Boston

Boston would be very unlikely to get a Berlin flight. ORD/JFK/IAD/MIA/LAX would all come first

Quoting Columba (Reply 18):
Will that make the A300 obsolete on the FRA-TXL-FRA route ?

Well, if TXL is closed, yes I think you wont see the A300 on FRA-TXL-FRA Big grin. Seriously though, FRA-TXL needs major cargo capacity.

Quoting Columba (Reply 18):
2) The new runway in FRA will be build and more slots out of FRA will be available , could the A300 at least on some routes be replaced with two A320s ?

Again, ALL of the A300 routes are cargo hauls. Additionally, they don't need that kind of frequency as they are already as frequent as you can really make them.

Quoting Columba (Reply 18):
Or could these routes flown by an A330-300 instead if you don´t want to buy extar a new aircraft for only 2-3 routes and you need the cargo capacity and also fly to a very slot restricted airport like LHR ?

A330s are horrible short haul/high frequency planes. That is the point. Also, the A330-300 is WAY too much aircraft. I mean, in a 2 class, high density configuration that would make them profitable, you are talking over 300 passengers.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
columba
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 3:56 am

@N1120A
Actually I totally agree with you but I wanted to think of possibilities that could interfere with my ideas and hopes for the 787-3 in LH colors.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
Boston would be very unlikely to get a Berlin flight. ORD/JFK/IAD/MIA/LAX would all come first

Boston was just an example for another city then NYC. I suspect that if Berlin gets any long haul flights from BBI served by LH it won´t be to the west coast of the US . ORD,MIA are possible destinations and maybe Chicago and Detroit are likely destinations aswell but I doubt that we will see SFO and LAX. LH will not ruin its hubs in FRA and MUC. They are some A380s, 747-400s (and maybe latter some Adv  Wink) and A340-600s that wants to be filled with people from all over Germany and Europe.
I would also say that if LH offers a flight to NYC again from Berlin it won´t be JFK but EWR.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
Again, ALL of the A300 routes are cargo hauls. Additionally, they don't need that kind of frequency as they are already as frequent as you can really make them.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):

A330s are horrible short haul/high frequency planes. That is the point. Also, the A330-300 is WAY too much aircraft. I mean, in a 2 class, high density configuration that would make them profitable, you are talking over 300 passengers.

I know that, but I wanted to say that if the runway in FRA will be build and LH will offer more frequency to cities that are now served with an A300 would it still make sense to add an additional aircraft in small numbers to the fleet only to serve these remaining destinations that justify an A300 sized aircraft.
Or will it be cheaper to take an existing model like the A330 which is already in the fleet despite all the disadvantages it has.
Air Inter tried to use the A330 as a short/medium haul aircraft for flights within France.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
dutchjet
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 3:58 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):

The 783 is the ideal A300 replacement. Lighter, lower costs, more cargo, same passenger loads.

I said the same thing, thanks quoting half of my thought above. Cheers!
 
N1120A
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 4:01 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 20):
Or will it be cheaper to take an existing model like the A330 which is already in the fleet despite all the disadvantages it has.

With all the MX problems that will result with the A330 if they are used in the manner the A300s are used, it will be very, very expensive to go that option

Quoting Columba (Reply 20):
I would also say that if LH offers a flight to NYC again from Berlin it won´t be JFK but EWR.

I say JFK simply because LH has seemed to refocus on JFK and move away from EWR with only 2 flights (1 Privatair included in those 2).
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
columba
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 4:02 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
The 783 is the ideal A300 replacement. Lighter, lower costs, more cargo, same passenger loads.



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 21):
I said the same thing, thanks quoting half of my thought above. Cheers!

That is for sure, I really hope LH sees it the same way as we do.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
columba
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 4:07 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 22):
I say JFK simply because LH has seemed to refocus on JFK and move away from EWR with only 2 flights (1 Privatair included in those 2).

Really, I thought that would be more. They are (or at least there were) two flights to EWR going from FRA LH 402/403 in the morning and one latter the day. Then they were the DUS-EWR which are now served with Privatair and I thought that one was going from MUC, but I am not to sure about the last one.
But thanks for the info.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 4:16 am

It's one 744 daily FRA/EWR and one each PT flight DUS-EWR and MUC EWR

Interesting views on BBI - Berlin's new airport won't happen in 2011 and not in 2015 and if it eventually does, the market requirements might have changed. As they are today, there would be no intercont flights from Berlin and AB6 (or 783.s) from SXF(BBI) to FRA and/or MUC.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
N1120A
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 4:18 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 25):
It's one 744 daily FRA/EWR and one each PT flight DUS-EWR and MUC EWR

MUC-EWR is not daily, so I missed that when looking at the schedule.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Rj111
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 4:26 am

What is the OEW of the 783?
 
roseflyer
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 4:41 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
Seriously though, FRA-TXL needs major cargo capacity.

I am curious as to why FRA-TXL is a huge air cargo market. The cities are only around 400 km apart, so do you really save much time using air over rail or road transportation? Rail and road are so much cheaper and more efficient. I am not the most familiar with Germany, but why is air cargo so important within the country? Germany isn't that big to the point where it can't be crossed in a day via a rail/road combination.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
columba
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 5:14 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 25):
It's one 744 daily FRA/EWR

Most of the time the flight to EWR is on an A340. Sometimes it is a 747
But I also know from a time where they were two flights per day, one A340 and one 744.
The LH 402/403 FRA-EWR I usually fly on to visit my family is served with the A340-300.
My brother was lucky last year and flew with the 747, sadly I had no chance yet to fly on one. He also had the luck to fly on a Delta MD 11 while I always got 767.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
pelican
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 5:28 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
The 783 is the ideal A300 replacement. Lighter, lower costs, more cargo, same passenger loads.

No doubt the Dreamliner would be the better replacement than a A330/350 but
assuming you're right -why haven't they (LH) already ordered some 787-3s?
I guess they wait some more years and watch the market until a replacement will be urgent.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 25):

Interesting views on BBI - Berlin's new airport won't happen in 2011 and not in 2015

-It's more like if (!) BBI will happen than it will be finished between 2011 and 2015. More delay is - due to growing competition - not an option.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 28):
I am curious as to why FRA-TXL is a huge air cargo market. The cities are only around 400 km apart, so do you really save much time using air over rail or road transportation? Rail and road are so much cheaper and more efficient. I am not the most familiar with Germany, but why is air cargo so important within the country? Germany isn't that big to the point where it can't be crossed in a day via a rail/road combination.

That's a good question and I'm curious, too.  Confused


pelican
 
N1120A
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 5:32 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 30):
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 28):
I am curious as to why FRA-TXL is a huge air cargo market. The cities are only around 400 km apart, so do you really save much time using air over rail or road transportation? Rail and road are so much cheaper and more efficient. I am not the most familiar with Germany, but why is air cargo so important within the country? Germany isn't that big to the point where it can't be crossed in a day via a rail/road combination.


That's a good question and I'm curious, too.

FRA-TXL is not the only short, big cargo route that there is in Germany. FRA-HAM and FRA-MUC also haul big time. It is a matter of time-sensitive cargo that goes in and out of FRA on LH Cargo having to connect. If you are to use rail or road alternatives you don't have the same kind of intermodality, LH does not make as much money on it, and logistics change.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
columba
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 5:36 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 30):
No doubt the Dreamliner would be the better replacement than a A330/350 but
assuming you're right -why haven't they (LH) already ordered some 787-3s?
I guess they wait some more years and watch the market until a replacement will be urgent.

That would propably be the reason.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
pelican
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 5:38 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
It is a matter of time-sensitive cargo that goes in and out of FRA on LH Cargo having to connect. If you are to use rail or road alternatives you don't have the same kind of intermodality, LH does not make as much money on it, and logistics change.

Sounds logical.

pelican
 
CORULEZ05
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 5:44 am

Most A300 that are still in operation are fairly old with an exception of a few. Should they replace them? As long as they are keeping up with maintenance and they aren't have too many problems with the aircraft, I don't see why they would. Now, NW and their DC-10's...different story.
Fly jetBlue today!!!!!!!
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 6:58 am

There is indeed hardly any local air cargo market between FRA and TXL or HAM or MUC but the AB6 bellies are used for through paletts. Whatever does not fit is trucked. Switching to smaller A/C would mean more trucks on the road. The AB6s or similar size aircraft are needed on these city pairs.

@Pelican -the options on the new airport are subject to court battles. There is no logic or commercial sense but simple paragraphs ruling on the decision.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
boo25
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 10:10 am

Well the LH A300's that pass thru LHR look brand new..... And their take-off performance is amazing.

They are not just L/H a/c either , in the same way that BA uses 767-300's for FRA flights , and sometimes 40min flights too....
 
trex8
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 10:44 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
The A330 is an absolute dog on short haul/high frequency flights. All kinds of reliability problems (see MH and QF) and too much weight

how short is short???
 
GoAibusGo
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 12:40 pm

Everybody here is saying ; "The B787-3 is the perfect replacement".

My question then is, "Is the B787-3 designed for long-haul, just like the A330-200"?
 
Alitalia744
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 12:50 pm

Quoting GoAibusGo (Reply 38):
My question then is, "Is the B787-3 designed for long-haul, just like the A330-200"?

No. The 783 is designed for shorter routes where cargo/passenger demand is needed.

The 788 is designed for longhaul similar to the A332
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
nudelhirsch
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Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:20 am

RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 12:51 pm

Quoting GoAibusGo (Reply 38):
My question then is, "Is the B787-3 designed for long-haul, just like the A330-200"?

Why is that your question?
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
GoAibusGo
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 11:01 am

RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 1:05 pm

Thanks 'AZ744' for your clarification.

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 40):
Why is that your question?

I thought that all three B787 were designed for long-haul (point to point traffic) and that they were in different sizes.
 
nudelhirsch
Posts: 1371
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 1:18 pm

I was posting while someone else did so...

The -3 is designed for medium length routes, the -8 and -9 more for the longer haul.
Compared to the 330 the 787 is lighter and the -3 is quite a perfect replacement for the 300.

Sorry for the confusion I caused...
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
N1120A
Posts: 26568
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 1:21 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 39):
The 788 is designed for longhaul similar to the A332

Actually, the 788 will likely be similar to the 767 in that it will be rather flexible and able to do both shorter and longer routes.

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 37):
how short is short???

Well, FRA-MUC is only 162nm, FRA-TXL is 235nm, FRA-LHR is 354nm and FRA-ATH is 982nm, all rather short hauls

Quoting GoAibusGo (Reply 41):
I thought that all three B787 were designed for long-haul (point to point traffic) and that they were in different sizes.

The 783 and 788 are the same size, with the 789 being about 30-50 seats larger. The 783 will have a lower thrust rating to keep engines cooler allowing a faster turn and burn less fuel as well as having a strengthened structure. This is similar to the 744D/747SR
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
GoAibusGo
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 11:01 am

RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 1:25 pm

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 42):
Sorry for the confusion I caused...

No problem  bigthumbsup  and also thanks for the info.  veryhappy 
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 5:22 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 25):
Interesting views on BBI - Berlin's new airport won't happen in 2011 and not in 2015 and if it eventually does, the market requirements might have changed. As they are today, there would be no intercont flights from Berlin and AB6 (or 783.s) from SXF(BBI) to FRA and/or MUC.

Exactly! It is still not clear to what extend the current law suits will effect the construction. Also if you project the current growth of BER in the future the new airport will operate at its capacity limit from day one on. A regards the long-haul flights out of TXL, LH was always very reluctant to start some new. But maybe competition forces LH to offer some routes from BER.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 30):
No doubt the Dreamliner would be the better replacement than a A330/350 but
assuming you're right -why haven't they (LH) already ordered some 787-3s?
I guess they wait some more years and watch the market until a replacement will be urgent.

Most of their A306 are from 1986-91 and in excellent condition, although with the amount of cycles above average. But I don't see any reason why they shouldn't fly until 2012 or so ...

BTW: Beside the A350 and 783 there is another option: Buy some new A300 !!! I know that this is not likely to happen, but the difference in economics between a A306 and 783 will be by far lesser then the difference between the 762 and the 788. In case you get the A306, lets say, 50M $ cheaper than the 783 (80M $ for a A306 vs. 130M $ for a 783), it could work out ...

[Edited 2005-05-08 10:22:43]
 
N1120A
Posts: 26568
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 5:30 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 45):
Beside the A350 and 783 there is another option:

The A350 is in no way an option, as it will be much like the A330

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 45):
but the difference in economics between a A306 and 783 will be by far lesser then the difference between the 762 and the 788

The difference in economics between the AB6 and the 783 will actually be GREATER than those between the 762 and 788 (the 788 is the size of a 763, not a 762). As is, the 763 is lighter and burns less than the AB6, and the 783 will improve on the 763 by probably 25% in fuel burn. The difference in economics is staggering.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
pelican
Posts: 2431
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 5:55 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 35):
Pelican -the options on the new airport are subject to court battles. There is no logic or commercial sense but simple paragraphs ruling on the decision.

It's not that easy. If someone starts to build an international airport within the greater region (LEJ comes to my mind) there will be no need for BBI anymore.
And if the construction process of BBI were delayed about further years the fundings would be insecure.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 45):
Buy some new A300 !!!

Nice dream spin 

pelican
 
CRJ900
Posts: 2388
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:48 am

RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 5:58 pm

I agree with PADSpot: if LH is in dire need of more A300-sized aircraft they should call Airbus and order a few more A300s. The production line is still open, the aircraft are still economical and durable and I'm sure Airbus will be happy to put in the "Enhanced" cabin amenities (new overhead bins, lighting etc) to match the A333 and A346 cabins.

Simple, really...  Smile
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
N1120A
Posts: 26568
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 6:11 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 48):
I agree with PADSpot: if LH is in dire need of more A300-sized aircraft they should call Airbus and order a few more A300s. The production line is still open, the aircraft are still economical and durable and I'm sure Airbus will be happy to put in the "Enhanced" cabin amenities (new overhead bins, lighting etc) to match the A333 and A346 cabins.

Simple, really...

Not simple at all as they have all the ones they need and by the time they retire them, a far superior aircraft will be available.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss

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