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PADSpot
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 6:16 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 46):
The A350 is in no way an option, as it will be much like the A330

At least here the A350 was widely discussed and if LH would ask Airbus: "What do you offer as as an A306 replacemant in 2010 or 2012?" They will certainbly say: "The A350!" So Airbus would say it is an option! But as you could read, most people here do not agree, including me.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 46):
The difference in economics between the AB6 and the 783 will actually be GREATER than those between the 762 and 788 (the 788 is the size of a 763, not a 762). As is, the 763 is lighter and burns less than the AB6, and the 783 will improve on the 763 by probably 25% in fuel burn. The difference in economics is staggering.

Ehmm. I think you have mistaken my statement. I way comparing flight types and not aircraft types. Maybe a bad idea in this thread to refer to the 767 as a long haul airplane, when its equally discussed as an A306 type of airplane. My fault, sorry.

If you compare the cost structure of a short haul flight with that of a long flight, the stake of fuel costs on long haul is much bigger than on short haul. Ergo better fuel effiency simply does work out to that extend.

If you have 10 percent fuel cost on short haul, the 787 saves you 2,5% of your total cost for a particular flight. On long haul you may have 30-40% fuel cost and the 787 saves you 7,5-10% of your overall costs per flight. Thus the economic impact of the 783 is lesser than that of 788/9.
 
N1120A
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 6:37 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 50):
At least here the A350 was widely discussed and if LH would ask Airbus: "What do you offer as as an A306 replacemant in 2010 or 2012?" They will certainbly say: "The A350!"

Actually, they wont, as they have already stated that it is an A330 replacement. Both planes are completely wrong for the mission. They are bigger, heavier, high thrust and have major technical problems doing A300 type missions.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 50):
If you compare the cost structure of a short haul flight with that of a long flight, the stake of fuel costs on long haul is much bigger than on short haul. Ergo better fuel effiency simply does work out to that extend.

If you have 10 percent fuel cost on short haul, the 787 saves you 2,5% of your total cost for a particular flight. On long haul you may have 30-40% fuel cost and the 787 saves you 7,5-10% of your overall costs per flight. Thus the economic impact of the 783 is lesser than that of 788/9.

Sure it does. If the plane burns 25% less fuel, it burns 25% less fuel. Add to that you are paying crews less because they are not working as long, the aircraft makes more flights, actually burning more fuel because it is taking off and landing more, meaning you don't have the advantage of long range cruise. Add to that greater cargo lift and you are talking a huge difference.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
PADSpot
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 6:56 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 51):
Actually, they wont, as they have already stated that it is an A330 replacement. Both planes are completely wrong for the mission. They are bigger, heavier, high thrust and have major technical problems doing A300 type missions.

Yes! That's what have been talking here for months and weeks. But Airbus won't send you home without an offer. Especially not if you were one of their biggest customers.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 51):
Sure it does. If the plane burns 25% less fuel, it burns 25% less fuel. Add to that you are paying crews less because they are not working as long, the aircraft makes more flights, actually burning more fuel because it is taking off and landing more, meaning you don't have the advantage of long range cruise. Add to that greater cargo lift and you are talking a huge difference.

Lol ... no matter how you see, your argument doesn't work. In absolute terms a short haul plane will consume far less fuel over its entire lifetime than a long haul plane and therefore savings will be less in absolute terms. Sure on a per-hour-calculation a long hauler will be more efficient due to less take-offs and landings and flying on more economic heights. But this per-hour-calculation, does also not work because short-haulers accumulate significantly less hours than long-haul-planes (but more cycles).

Please, let's leave by that ...  Wink But what do you (all) think of my suggestion of replacing A300 with new A300s. Would it work if they were cheap enough? Is their any statement how much the 787 will save on MX costs?
 
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Vasu
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 6:58 pm

Did the ex- EK aircraft have the PTVs etc?
 
N1120A
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 7:04 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 52):
But Airbus won't send you home without an offer. Especially not if you were one of their biggest customers.

Then Airbus would have to dust off the A305

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 52):
But what do you (all) think of my suggestion of replacing A300 with new A300s. Would it work if they were cheap enough?

Again, it wouldn't work. Besides, if LH really wanted to, they could try and get some off of AA or someone else

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 52):
In absolute terms a short haul plane will consume far less fuel over its entire lifetime than a long haul plane and therefore savings will be less in absolute terms. Sure

Yes, but comparing short haul plane to short haul plane, you are still talking the same degree less. Also, the 783 should price cheaper than the 788
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
PADSpot
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 7:05 pm

Quoting Vasu (Reply 53):
Did the ex- EK aircraft have the PTVs etc?

Did I missed the day, when LH regional airplanes got PTVs ? Neither of A300 (and all 737/A32S) has them ... the ex-EK A300 got the same interior as all the other LH A300s.

[Edited 2005-05-08 12:07:44]
 
pelican
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 7:06 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 52):

Please, let's leave by that ... Wink But what do you (all) think of my suggestion of replacing A300 with new A300s. Would it work if they were cheap enough? Is their any statement how much the 787 will save on MX costs?

An important factor in your question is how long will LH operate their A300s - or - When will they have to introduce a successor?

pelican
 
PADSpot
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 7:14 pm

Quoting Pelican (Reply 56):
An important factor in your question is how long will LH operate their A300s - or - When will they have to introduce a successor?

They are definitly not in a hurry as regards the old A300s. As I suggested above: At least until 2010, maybe 2012. But the availability of delivery slots could force them to order soon ...
 
pelican
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 7:42 pm

I wonder whether LH can wait some more years until Airbus or Boeing replace their narrobodies. A successor of the A321 or 739 could maybe do what A321 and 739 can't do.

pelican
 
PADSpot
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 8:06 pm

Quoting Pelican (Reply 58):
I wonder whether LH can wait some more years until Airbus or Boeing replace their narrobodies. A successor of the A321 or 739 could maybe do what A321 and 739 can't do.

Once there was a study about a "small" widebody for regional and short routes posted on a forum (don't know whether a.net or some else). It looked a bit like a scaled up BAe-146 but with two engines. I don't even remeber if it was from Boeing or Airbus. I just remember the picture somehow ... I hope somebody can give a catch up on this.

I doubt that you can make the A321 or 739 any longer, without a larger wing. But then we would end up with a copy of the 757. And a 7-8-abreast-single-aisle type of design won't appeal to passengers very much ...
 
dairy
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 8:35 pm

D-AIAW "WItten" just went to ONUR AIR, so now/today there are 14 A306 left in the fleet. At this very moment no one is stored, all are in service back again (!).

The working horses - the most wonderful plane in the LH-Fleet - are not only serving short-hauls as mentioned here, but also in Europe and Near-East-Destinations.

Nearly every German LH-Destinations sees regulary an A306, mostly DUS, HAM, MUC, TXL and HAJ. But also STR, CGN, NUE, LEJ, BRE and DRS are visited by one of these gorgeous planes.

In Europe the most visited Destinations are ATH, LIS, LHR, FCO and CDG. MLA and LCA used to have regulary weekly services too. Not regulary, but quite often they are operating flights to IST, SVO, HEL, ARN, CPH, OSL, WAW, MAN, (BHX!), DUB, NCE, BCN, MAD, AGP, FAO, OPO, ZRH, MXP, LIN; VIE, BUD, PRG, VCE, GVA, LYS (!) and also BSL (!!). For Hadji it serves JED/CAI, to CAI sometimes in substitution for a 332/333. (Did I forgot a city?)

I just love them. When I m booking my flights I always try to fly A306!!! I already have been on all of them, my second home seems to be D-AIAN ("Nördlingen") and D-AIAP ("Donauwörth") as both brought me through the half Lufthansa-World and I spent more time on them than on other things  Smile
A318/A319/A320/A321 AB3/A306/A310/A333/A343/A346 732/733/735/736/744/752/763/764/772/773 DH3 F70 F100 CR2 CR1 CR7 ATR42
 
columba
Posts: 5237
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 8:40 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 59):
It looked a bit like a scaled up BAe-146 but with two engines. I don't even remeber if it was from Boeing or Airbus. I just remember the picture somehow .

It was Boeing  Wink

http://www.boeingtechnology.com/pat...f/US6834833.pdf


Besides we were already discussing the fact that LH wants to keep its 737 for a little while and wants to wait what Boeing and Airbus will offer as 737 and A320 replacement.
It seems that LH is at the moment in no hurry to buy any planes, no 737 replacement, no A300 replacement and no 787-800/-900 as A340 replacement.
Even the long discussed regional jet seems to be off the table since LH is hestitating to order the E-Jets of Embraer or the A318 even with new PW engines.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
PADSpot
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 9:08 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 61):
Even the long discussed regional jet seems to be off the table since LH is hestitating to order the E-Jets of Embraer or the A318 even with new PW engines.

Didn't had LH a large order with Fairchild-Dornier for 728 jets? The demise of Fairchild-Dornier must have been welcomed by LH then to cope with some of the 9/11 effects.

I don't think that LH will again buy PW engines. After PW tried to blackmail them in connection with engine maintenance services for Iran Air and their PW engines LH was extremely pissed off.

[Edited 2005-05-08 14:11:06]
 
CRJ900
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 9:41 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 61):
It seems that LH is at the moment in no hurry to buy any planes, no 737 replacement, no A300 replacement and no 787-800/-900 as A340 replacement.
Even the long discussed regional jet seems to be off the table since LH is hestitating to order the E-Jets of Embraer or the A318 even with new PW engines.

Lufthansa CityLine have options for 10 CRJ700s, does anyone know if they will convert them into orders? I read somewhere that some of the CRJ200s were leaving...
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
PADSpot
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 9:53 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 63):
Lufthansa CityLine have options for 10 CRJ700s, does anyone know if they will convert them into orders? I read somewhere that some of the CRJ200s were leaving...

I could imagine that they convert the options to CR900 orders to replace some Avros/BAe-146. They are said to be almost as costly to operate as 735s but on the other hand only about 10 years old.
 
columba
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 9:57 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 64):
I could imagine that they convert the options to CR900 orders to replace some Avros/BAe-146. They are said to be almost as costly to operate as 735s but on the other hand only about 10 years old.

They will in no way opt for the CR 900, as for the same reason why they did not choose the 757-300 as a A300 replacement -although LH was very satisfied with the 757-300, but passenger surveys showed that they didn´t like these long tubes.
I know some people will say since when LH is interested in cattle class passengers but it is true they didn´t choose the 757-300 because the passengers didn´t like it.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
na
Posts: 9769
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 10:47 pm

The A300 is the next aircraft type to be retired by LH from what I´ve heard. Whether this will take 2 or maybe 5 years, its days are numbered. Its only that no proper replacement is offered at the moment that they are still with LH. Are there any airliners of this size used for shorthaul inside Europe besides LH A300s? BA retires its 767s which quite often flew LHR-FRA. Other airlines only fly narrowbodies within Europe.
And yes, LHs A300s start to feel a bit old.
I´m flying with them pretty often since about 15 years (and as it looks like, next week again), and only recently I found out that actually the worst businessclass-seats on LH (and for sure among the worst worldwide) are to be found on the A300: the window seats in the first three rows are a disgrace, and even worse than the average economy-seat - on other LH types! They are ok for children or short people, but they are simply horrible for anyone taller than 1,65m. I sat in 2A for 10 minutes - and then even favoured a middle-seat to that distorted torture place!
 
pelican
Posts: 2431
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 11:45 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 59):
I doubt that you can make the A321 or 739 any longer, without a larger wing. But then we would end up with a copy of the 757

I'm talking about a completely new design. And why should it not be like a new 757? There are plenty of 757s which have to be replaced in the foreseeable future.

Quoting Columba (Reply 61):
Besides we were already discussing the fact that LH wants to keep its 737 for a little while and wants to wait what Boeing and Airbus will offer as 737 and A320 replacement.

Me thinks so, too.

pelican
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Sun May 08, 2005 11:57 pm

@NA - BA still flies the 763s on European routes and retirement is not in sight yet. They regularly come to FRA, 3 or 4 times daily, serve DUS and MUC as well. You are right about C Class on LH's AB6s, I mentioned that here before. According to LHs policy, the middle seat in C should be free, however on the AB6 there is no middle seat on the window rows. Make sure you get a center isle seat and you are all set.

Other carriers using widebodies in Europe are IB and KL uses 767s to LHR. With the slot restrictions in FRA and the amount of traffic the 260 seaters are needed and must be replaced with a similar size aircraft.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
PADSpot
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RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Mon May 09, 2005 12:01 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 67):
I'm talking about a completely new design. And why should it not be like a new 757? There are plenty of 757s which have to be replaced in the foreseeable future.

Basically you're right, but a complete new design would be pretty expensive. And Boeing's strategy of sticking to the fuselage, while updating the inner life has turned out to be a success model. Why shouldn't Airbus adopt it ?
 
columba
Posts: 5237
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Mon May 09, 2005 12:24 am

Quoting NA (Reply 66):
The A300 is the next aircraft type to be retired by LH from what I´ve heard. Whether this will take 2 or maybe 5 years, its days are numbered. Its only that no proper replacement is offered at the moment that they are still with LH

A proper replacement has not been offered untill the 787-3 was on the table.
Now there is !!
I rather think that LH has changed priorities because for some years ago LH was desparate for an A306 replacement :

Lufthansa was the only airline interested in an A330-500 which was never build as we all know because of the lack of interest from other potential buyers.

LH was also interested in the 757-300 and used a Condor aircraft on some A306 routes but as I said they got no positive feedback from the passengers and did not buy this aircraft for LH mainline service.

So I guess LH will not replace the A300 at the moment for the same reason AA does, they make good cash with them, they are paid, carry a good amount of cargo and are very efficient.
I really hope that LH will buy the 787-3 but I never heard from an LH manager that they are looking at this aircraft I only heard that they look closely on the long range version and in particular the 787-9 and in competition with that the A350-900.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
pelican
Posts: 2431
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Mon May 09, 2005 8:02 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 69):
Basically you're right, but a complete new design would be pretty expensive. And Boeing's strategy of sticking to the fuselage, while updating the inner life has turned out to be a success model.Why shouldn't Airbus adopt it ?

Do you really think Boeing will modify the 737 once more? Airbus has already adopted this strategy with their widebodies - don't the A300/310 - A332/300 - A342/3/5/6 share the same fuselage width and the nose shape? So it's not unlikely Airbus will choose the same strategy for their A32x replacement. However a new wing design would be necessary if Boeing built a new narrowbody.

pelican
 
N1120A
Posts: 26568
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Mon May 09, 2005 8:17 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 62):
Didn't had LH a large order with Fairchild-Dornier for 728 jets? The demise of Fairchild-Dornier must have been welcomed by LH then to cope with some of the 9/11 effects.

Actually, it pissed LH off to no end because the 728/928 would have been, by far, the best in class if built to proposed specs. They were really excited and when F-D went under, they were left SOL.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 55):
Did I missed the day, when LH regional airplanes got PTVs ?

Hell, did I miss the day their Long Haul planes got PTVs (in Y anyway)  sarcastic 

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 62):
I don't think that LH will again buy PW engines. After PW tried to blackmail them in connection with engine maintenance services for Iran Air and their PW engines LH was extremely pissed off.

Well, that and they are pretty set with GE where they can get them

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 64):
I could imagine that they convert the options to CR900 orders to replace some Avros/BAe-146. They are said to be almost as costly to operate as 735s but on the other hand only about 10 years old.

The CR9 does not have nearly the performance of the 146, and is certainly not as comfortable for passengers so LH would be making tradeoffs

Quoting Columba (Reply 65):
although LH was very satisfied with the 757-300, but passenger surveys showed that they didn´t like these long tubes.

The 753 also could not handle cargo weight loads like the A300 and LH found it impossible to turn fast enough because of how long it is. You simple cannot get that many passengers off an airplane and back on it within 30-45 minutes with a plane that long

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 69):
Basically you're right, but a complete new design would be pretty expensive. And Boeing's strategy of sticking to the fuselage, while updating the inner life has turned out to be a success model. Why shouldn't Airbus adopt it ?

Well, Boeing has stated that the 737NNG will most likely be completely new with a composite fuselage, wings and the like so Airbus may have to completely redo the A32S as well
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Carpethead
Posts: 2619
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:15 pm

RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Mon May 09, 2005 12:59 pm

JL & NH use the 763/AB6 in a similar manner as BA's 763 & LH's AB6s. Both are good machines that are still good for many years of service. Currently, there is no replacement other than the 787-3 which will debut around 2010.
Also the 763/AB6 can be turned around in 40 minutes because of the twin-aisles. Even with twin boarding bridges a 753 would be tough to turnaround in equal time unless the rear door is used.
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: LH A300's : Beginning To Age?

Mon May 09, 2005 4:30 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 72):
The CR9 does not have nearly the performance of the 146, and is certainly not as comfortable for passengers so LH would be making tradeoffs

Yes, meanwhile I heard this from several people. As I am more afraid of ATRs, Dash 8's (I always get sick on them) I like the CR700 and the Avro as well (much of space, great sight on every seat, very calm in the air etc.).

As long as their bad fuel consumption isn't a pain in the ass for LH they will use them for some years to come

Quoting N1120A (Reply 72):
Well, Boeing has stated that the 737NNG will most likely be completely new with a composite fuselage, wings and the like so Airbus may have to completely redo the A32S as well

Your argument sounds plausible. Could that be the reason why Airbus "only" invests 4 Billion in the A350 and passes on a real technological competitor to the 787? Just in order to have enough money for an expensive A32S successor?

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