Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Birdwatching
Topic Author
Posts: 3711
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:48 am

How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 6:32 am

Wouldn't this
1) make the airframe lighter, saving fuel
2) make the plane cheaper to build
3) reduce maintenance?

Has any airline ever thought of this? I mean certainly not the majors, but how about Ryanair or U2? They don't care about anything, so why would they have windows?

Any thoughts?
All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
 
User avatar
airportugal310
Posts: 3710
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 6:33 am

One word:

Clausterphobia
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
Birdwatching
Topic Author
Posts: 3711
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:48 am

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 6:38 am

Quoting AirPortugal310 (Reply 1):
One word:

Clausterphobia

Welcome aboard Ryanair!

(Actually it is claustrophobia)
All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
 
User avatar
EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 6:38 am

Quoting AirPortugal310 (Reply 1):
One word:

Clausterphobia

True, but it could be a decent idea for short haul. Think about it, millions travel underground every day for 1 or 2 hours, so if the price would be right, maybe there could be a market for windowless short flights. This said, I would never travel in one!

regards
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
Birdwatching
Topic Author
Posts: 3711
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:48 am

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 6:43 am

Well, I have flown on military cargo flights in Ecuador a couple of times, and frankly there's nothing wrong with that. When you're in a middle seat in a 2-5-2 or 3-4-3 arrangement (or what-not in an A380), it is pretty much the same thing. Add to that the fact that the shades are often closed anyways. Plus did you ever land in thick fog? Same thing. Like not having any windows at all.

EZEIZA, good example, subway trains. Actually they do have windows... except you don't see anything.

All in all, give me that windowless Ryanair 737 if it'll save me $10 off my airfare. Seriously.
All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
 
redngold
Posts: 6686
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2000 12:26 pm

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 6:46 am

Birdwatching -

Ths was essentially proposed by Boeing a decade ago when they were designing a "flying wing" prototype. It would have only had windows on the very outside edges, with several internal compartments for seating. Most people nixed the idea immediately, and then Boeing and the designers said that they might include video screens as "virtual windows." That idea failed quickly.

AFAIK - no dice. You wouldn't get me on a plane unless I can see out the window.


redngold
Up, up and away!
 
User avatar
airportugal310
Posts: 3710
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 6:51 am

Thanks for correcting my spelling.

I suppose most of you are right. I myself just love window views and that stuff. I fly alllllllll the time but I always love looking outside. Thats all.

Seeeeya!
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
Kempa
Posts: 364
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2003 2:47 am

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 6:53 am

I think it would be a good idea, except that I would only fly in one of them for free.
 
petazulu
Posts: 683
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:32 am

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 6:57 am

Terrible idea! I think one of the things that reassures nervous passengers is looking out the window, being able to see what is going on, etc.

Outside of military- I could see situations of potential mass panic and fear if no one could look out the window.

Now maybe a plane with much smaller windows might be ok, but only if it saved people a lot of money in reduced weight.
 
AeroVodochody
Posts: 525
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:24 am

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 7:00 am

It would save money, there's no arguing with that, but less people would want to fly, and it would totally ruin it for me, the view from above is one of my favorite things about flying.
Try not to be jealous, we can't all be Czech.
 
Birdwatching
Topic Author
Posts: 3711
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:48 am

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 7:00 am

How about you throw in a quarter and the shade goes up for 5 minutes? Like in the... you know where.
All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
 
antares
Posts: 1367
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 7:04 am

Great. The motion sickness challenged and the disorientated will throw up all over you, probably one on each side.

It would also be an even worse nightmare in an emergency involving fire, with persons near overwing exits not even knowing if they were popping the panel into a fire, a tree or whatever.

Any other ideas for totally trashing the air travel environment even worse than is currently the case?

Maybe knock out pills for long flights. You'd only kill two or three people out of every hundred from the unintended side effects on various medications.
 
SATL382G
Posts: 2679
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:02 am

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 7:08 am

What is being discussed in this thread is a flying wing, one of the main disadvantages of which is that it would not have much in the way of windows.

Picture a B-2 or a B-49 as an airliner and you've got the idea. A flying wing would not have the drag from the tail section or engine nacelles. Center of gravity problems would be reduced since the wing houses all the load. Weight would be reduced since the fuselage is no more. Only downside really is the passenger windows. Could probably make an accomodation for first class, put'em in the leading edge and give'em a big forward looking picture window.

Maybe for the steerage class pax they could put big LCDs on the walls with video coming from exterior cams. Then during cruise use the LCDs for movies or COMMERCIALS!
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
AirWillie6475
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:45 pm

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 7:32 am

Hey, why don't the engineers at Boeing or Airbus just put screens where the windows would be so we can look at the camera view of outside.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20651
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 8:31 am

Quoting Redngold (Reply 5):
Ths was essentially proposed by Boeing a decade ago when they were designing a "flying wing" prototype.

Well, it was actually a McDonnell Douglas proposal, but ok  Wink

Known as the Blended Wing Body (BWB).
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
antares
Posts: 1367
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 9:34 am

As I understand it nothing can prevent a modest turn in a large BWB from producing thrill park G forces even halfway between the centre of gravity and the outermost edges of the wings.

Having to clip into a safety line to go to the 'loo doesn't really inspire me, much as the economic advantages of the design in terms of brute payload and design efficiency seem very good.

Time will tell. I'm sure some elements of BWB will come into the commercial frame in the next few decades
 
LPLAspotter
Posts: 671
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:27 am

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 9:35 am

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 12):
Maybe for the steerage class pax they could put big LCDs on the walls with video coming from exterior cams.

Actually, doesn't some airlines (AF pops to mind) have feed from the outside cameras to the PTVs infront of every passenger? I love window seats, but I might go for an aisle if my flight had this option

LPLAspotter
Nuke the Gay Wales for Christ
 
Lemurs
Posts: 1320
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:13 am

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 9:41 am

If you want a fun read, there's a website dedicated to lifting body designs, and how they've been neglected by civil aviation companies. Mind you, the guy is absolutely a loony and has a very poor grasp of what it means to build an effective airliner, but he does mention some sound points that I think most engineers would agree with in principle, even if they're utterly unreasonable for an airline to operate. It's worth reading just for the laughs honestly!

http://www.aircrash.org/burnelli/index.htm

His complaint about the Sonic Cruiser is classic comedy as well: http://www.aircrash.org/burnelli/n30.htm
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
goCOgo
Posts: 710
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:24 am

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 10:11 am

Aren't there some safety concerns as well? I do believe that the flight attendants need to be able to look outside to assess the situation in the event of an evacuation/emergency. Right?
"Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
 
hz747300
Posts: 2420
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 10:13 am

They already have it--it's called troop transport on a C-130. They do not fly to avoid storms, they do not care how not smooth the ride is. Vomit comet all-the-way!
Keep on truckin'...
 
NWADC9
Posts: 3955
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 12:33 am

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 10:47 am

Windowless airliners? Oh good grief! FA's have to look out the peephole on the door to see what's out there (look in the safety card of any airliner. It's there.), claustrobic peope (however the heck you spell it), lighting, etc.
I get paid to convert dead dino juice into noise.
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4961
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 10:56 am

The AN-72 is windowless.My idea would be to replace the windows with flat-screen-TVs which shows the outside, currently not economically but perhaps in the future?
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
iwok
Posts: 979
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:35 pm

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 10:56 am

Maybe you could have a sort of promenade area by the few windows that would be on the plane. This an a good assortments of cams to choose from would probably be OK in BWB. Imagine if there were like 40 cams on the plane, looking outside. Then you could log into one to control and pan and zoom to your hearts content.

This would be expecially fun during takeoff and landing since you could get a better view of the runway etc. It would be real fun to watch one of these cams as you come in to land in a nice crosswind.

iwok
 
User avatar
N62NA
Posts: 4516
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 11:08 am

In a 757, try sitting in the first row in coach, or the infamous missing window row for the true windowless experience. Ugh!
 
User avatar
September11
Posts: 3687
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:49 am

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 11:15 am

Will I ever book reservation on DHL? No way...

Windowless 757s? No thanks.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Josep Tomas - Iberian Spotters
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Eero Lumme



Sighting is important to me ~~ all the time
Airliners.net of the Future
 
JHSfan
Posts: 460
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 6:22 am

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 7:10 pm

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 21):
The AN-72 is windowless

Indeed the An-72 is windowless is, except for the VIP section with small windows!

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Marc-André Veillard
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jarek Dabrowski [epwa_spotters]


Flying as a passenger with such an airplane there must be only one thing to do - VODKA, VODKA & VODKA!

Yours soberly
JHSfan
Look at me, I´m riding high, I´m the airbornmaster of the sky...
 
ZKSUJ
Posts: 6886
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 5:15 pm

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 7:22 pm

What a stupid idea, how do people like us expect to go for a flight without being able to glance out the window at the scenery?
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 5391
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 8:18 pm

I believe that early designs for Concorde were windowless. It would have made the engineers' job much easier but the marketing people stamped on that idea.

Good!
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 8:23 pm

It's not SO bad, although I would avoid such an aircraft if I had the choice. I flew a number of times on Hercules and C160 aircraft, that only have a couple of windows, and it's not awful. It's not brilliant either.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20651
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 9:40 pm

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 26):
What a stupid idea, how do people like us expect to go for a flight without being able to glance out the window at the scenery?

Most people I see on the transatlantic 777s never look out the window from their center section seats. And even some with windows seats keep the shade shut for the entire flight. So I don't think it would be that big of a problem.

I agree that I wouldn't like it personally, but a good camera system would solve the problem.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
tsnamm
Posts: 563
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 3:28 am

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 9:46 pm

didn't UPS have the bright idea to put seats in its 757 small package freighters, so they could utilize more aircraft on the weekends?? I'm sure that would have been just like a MAC trip on a C141 or C5B...I'm not sure what killed the idea for them...but I would guess the windows(or lack thereof) might have been one reason...
 
NWADC9
Posts: 3955
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 12:33 am

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 10:34 pm

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 30):
didn't UPS have the bright idea to put seats in its 757 small package freighters, so they could utilize more aircraft on the weekends??

I think they used 727's, but I think some of the UPS fleet still have the windows there.
I get paid to convert dead dino juice into noise.
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 10:43 pm

Bad idea. Most passengers would not tolerate it very well.
One Nation Under God
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20651
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 11:01 pm

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 32):
Bad idea. Most passengers would not tolerate it very well.

I still wonder about this after having met so many pax that emphatically don't want to look out. Good vision tech (screens+cameras) would alleviate most of i.t
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Wed May 11, 2005 11:11 pm

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 30):
didn't UPS have the bright idea to put seats in its 757 small package freighters, so they could utilize more aircraft on the weekends??

UPS used to have 727QC aircraft that they'd charter on weekends. The QC variant had cabin interiors on freight pallets that could be slid into and out out of the aircraft through the cargo door. I believe the entire conversion took about 30 minutes.

Great idea. The problem was that you typically had to dead head the aircraft twice because you always wanted the interiors back at home base.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
ib16uk
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Mon May 16, 2005 10:02 pm

Birdwatching

How about a wingless airplane?

Thats a stupid idea - just like a windowless airplane !!

Iain
Cabin Crew Wannabe
 
Jet-lagged
Posts: 921
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2002 11:58 pm

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Mon May 16, 2005 11:07 pm

Terrible idea. There must be some windows. We are still creatures of nature and crave to know where the sun is.

That being said, I don't think a BWB would fail for having such a wide cabin. Not everyone needs a window seat. Think of ferries.

Cheers!
 
aseem
Posts: 1971
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:39 pm

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Mon May 16, 2005 11:20 pm

being in a windowless airplane is like treating oneself as cattle or being stuck in an elevator.  bigthumbsup 
cheers!!
VT-ASJ
ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
 
bohica
Posts: 2462
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 3:21 pm

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Tue May 17, 2005 12:54 am

Quoting Ib16uk (Reply 35):
How about a wingless airplane?

It's called a rocket. They're used by Russians to send cosmonauts and astronauts to the international space station. Big grin
 
ruger11
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 4:20 pm

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Tue May 17, 2005 8:45 am

Some people laugh, but I've flown probably 12+ flights on a C-130 where there are maybe a couple windows, like one by the "head" (theres a lot of funny stories there, too)

But honestly it's NOT bad at all.. and I was crammed in with a bunch of bags and Marines, and sitting on those paratrooper canvas/nylon whatever seats...
But I've often wondered if you DID offer flights on a C-130 tpye airplane, wit cheap seats, no windows etc for short haul... maybe 80 pax... and could get the cost down to around $20-$30 a ticket... would it work? Like it was mentioned you could even have a giant LCD screen in the front, back and a few small ones on the ceiling even connected to cameras... heck the view might be even better than windows, you could see 360 degrees!
 
jeb94
Posts: 588
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 9:19 pm

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Tue May 17, 2005 10:00 am

Did you all realize that the screens, cameras, and miles of wiring required for electronic windows would equal or exceed the weight of removing the windows? Not to mention that you add the additional maintenance costs of those cameras, screens, and wires and the added danger of an electrical fire. As for the Burnelli nut, he probably thinks the plane should be built out of the same material the black boxes are made out of. He has no concept about efficiency or airworthiness.
 
AADC10
Posts: 1511
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:40 am

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Tue May 17, 2005 10:07 am

I am sure that Ryanair has thought about it, but the disadvantage is that it would hurt the aircraft's resale value, which would make it unappealing to leasing companies, unless it is suitable for freighter conversion and 737s do not have the lift to be useful as freighters. Amenities that Ryanair has dispensed with such as window shades and reclining seats can be replaced, but you cannot add windows.

It might work out if the planes were purchased and flown their entire useful lives by Ryanair. The benefit would actually be marginal because the cost of the windows would be amortized over the life of the plane and there is usually little maintenance cost associated with them. The window shades and seat recline break frequently and are a considerable maintenance cost. The benefit of not having windows, over thousands of flights would be minimal, mostly in the weight savings.
 
flybyguy
Posts: 1420
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:52 pm

RE: How About A Windowless Airliner?

Tue May 17, 2005 10:13 am

I think at one point, hypersonic air transport designs were even to go without cockpit windows because of the incredibly high temperatures the aircraft skins were supposed to experience. These aircraft would be amazing if they were around today... JFK-NRT in 3 hours or less? Fantastic.

Does anyone have any more info on this?
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos