Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
StevenUhl777
Topic Author
Posts: 3281
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 11:02 am

NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Tue May 24, 2005 11:36 pm

Looks like NWA is 2nd in line behind UA to eliminate quality aircraft maintenance and outsource it to the cheapest possible vendor.

Source:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7962836/
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3514
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Tue May 24, 2005 11:43 pm

USATODAY also has an article.........saying they will pay 32/hr, $2,000 bonus as well as paid housing. NOt bad at all.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Tue May 24, 2005 11:54 pm

What level of maintenance does NW currently perform on its fleet? Does NW do its own overhauls in-house? Also -- where are NW's maintenance bases, overhaul or otherwise?
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8529
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Tue May 24, 2005 11:55 pm

Why can't NW do similar to what AA is doing at their facilities in AFW and TUL and turn them into profit centers by doing 3rd party work for other airlines? With some restructuring, I'm sure NW could do some maintenance work for other airlines and increase utilization of their existing facilities and workforce. If everyone else is doing 3rd party, why not seek to capture some of that business yourself?
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3514
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 12:00 am

yes the USATODAY article stated looking for overhaul mechanics
 
flypdx
Posts: 603
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:19 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 12:10 am

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Thread starter):
Looks like NWA is 2nd in line behind UA to eliminate quality aircraft maintenance and outsource it to the cheapest possible vendor.

That is a really BAD way of putting it. They wouldn't outsource to a poor quality facility. The planes need to be in the same condition no matter who services them. B6 outsources their maintenance, no problems with their planes. The fact is, that for a plane to get into the sky it needs to be in the same condition no matter if it was serviced in house or elsewhere.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8529
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 12:13 am

DLH (Duluth, MN)- performs A319/A320 heavy maintenance; 300,000 sq. ft, opened in 1996
MSP - performs DC-9 & 757 heavy maintenance, sheet metal repair, light/moderate work on DC-9, A319/A320, A330, 757, DC-10-30, 742, 744

Overnight / Line maintenance at: DTW, MSP, MEM

Recently closed a DC-9 maintenace facility in ATL (goes back to the Republic days)

3rd party work for heavy maintenance on DC-9's in DHN
3rd party work for heavy maintenance on DC-10-30's in SIN
3rd party work for heavy maintenance on 747-400's in MNL
3rd party work for heavy maintenance/engines on pax & freighter 747-200's in HKG
 
JMV
Posts: 230
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 4:22 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 12:18 am

Too bad the union won't allow NW to get rid of the bad mechanics, the poor performers. Quality of maintenance could actually improve if this were properly thought out and executed correctly. Unfortunately, it will be all about seniority.
Google begins where my brain ends! ©
 
IADLHR
Posts: 612
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:25 pm

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 12:38 am

I have a friend who is a mechanic for NW in Duluth. He moved there a few years ago after losing another job at another airline. Does anyone know how many will lose their job in Duluth?
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 1:18 am

Quoting Flypdx (Reply 5):
That is a really BAD way of putting it. They wouldn't outsource to a poor quality facility.

exactly, so what's the problem? If NW can work cheaper, we can fly cheaper... And the mechanics probably keep their jobs working for the other company. At the end they still need the same number of mechanics.

KL911
 
ITGeek
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:00 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics

Wed May 25, 2005 1:49 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 3):
Why can't NW do similar to what AA is doing at their facilities in AFW and TUL and turn them into profit centers

Interesting that you mention that. Link below to AA story.

http://tinyurl.com/9gaun

[Edited 2005-05-24 18:52:48]
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt
 
PHXinterrupted
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 6:41 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 1:59 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 9):
Quoting Flypdx (Reply 5):
That is a really BAD way of putting it. They wouldn't outsource to a poor quality facility.

exactly, so what's the problem? If NW can work cheaper, we can fly cheaper... And the mechanics probably keep their jobs working for the other company. At the end they still need the same number of mechanics.

KL911

Yeah, good one. Why don't you try to tell that to the mechanics who will have to take significant pay cuts for their new jobs.
Keepin' it real.
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 2:19 am

Quoting PHXinterrupted (Reply 11):
Yeah, good one. Why don't you try to tell that to the mechanics who will have to take significant pay cuts for their new jobs.

Happened to me as well.... It's or that or no job at all...

KL911
 
kith
Posts: 312
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2004 1:26 pm

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 2:21 am

It's terrible the way making money works, if only the government ran the airline and no one had to be laid off ever. Yet as that is not the case, this must happen. It would be highly unprofessional to say that NW planes weren't going to be safe with the new mechanics. B6 has had no problem with their outsourcing of maintenance, and in fact their contractor recently won an award for the quality of their workmanship. -Matt in KITH
 
IslandHopperCO
Posts: 220
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:09 pm

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics

Wed May 25, 2005 2:25 am

>Why can't NW do similar to what AA is doing at their facilities in AFW and TUL and turn them into profit centers by doing 3rd party work for other airlines?

With union labor, they can't be competitive with other maintenance facilities.

>Yeah, good one. Why don't you try to tell that to the mechanics who will have to take significant pay cuts for their new jobs.

I have a masters degree making $35K per year and live comfortably. Please excuse me for not shedding a tear for those making $50-100K who have a 2-year mechanics certificate. Union labor rates are obsolete, face facts.
 
starrion
Posts: 1024
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 1:19 pm

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 2:46 am

66K a year seems like a pretty good wage to me. Am I missing something here?
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
alphascan
Posts: 795
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:04 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 2:48 am

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Thread starter):
Looks like NWA is 2nd in line behind UA to eliminate quality aircraft maintenance and outsource it to the cheapest possible vendor.

Presently NW does 63% of its own maintenance work, more than any other US legacy according to CEO Doug Steenland in a StarTribune article published last month.

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 8):
Does anyone know how many will lose their job in Duluth?

The Duluth base has special stipulations on it. NW must maintain a minimum number of jobs at the base to adhere to loan covenants with the State of Minnesota. IIRC, the number of jobs there presently is at about the stipulated level.
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18398
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 3:00 am

"Why don't you try to tell that to the mechanics who will have to take significant pay cuts for their new jobs.
"

Give me their names and contact info, I'll gladly put a Powerpoint presentation together.

"I have a masters degree making $35K per year and live comfortably. Please excuse me for not shedding a tear for those making $50-100K who have a 2-year mechanics certificate."

Amen.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
nsfguy
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 7:52 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 3:11 am

I THINK IS OK TO FIRE THE WRENCH TURNERS ANYWAY, THEY DRINK BEER AND PLAY POOL ALL THE TIME, BESIDES, IF YOU CAN GET THE FANS TURNING FAST ENOUGH, THE PLANE WILL LIFT OFF, THEN WHO NEEDS A STINKING MECHANIC? AY....?
 
Indy
Posts: 4944
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 3:38 am

They should do what UA did. Get someone to build you a billion dollar maintenance facility, file bankruptcy and get out of the lease. Once you have done this you wait until someone new takes over the building and then you go to them for repairs  Smile.

But seriously though. As long as the mechanics are skilled does it really matter? The old UA maintenance facility here is staffed by former UA mechanics. They are just as good now as they were when their paychecks were coming from UA.
IND to RDU to OKC in 18 months. This is what my life has become.
 
ckfred
Posts: 5189
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 3:56 am

IshlandHopperCO:

AA has unionized mechanics, and it got a contract to do work on F100s.

Alphascan:

I think AA does about 80% of its maintenance work in-house. All heavy maintenance, as well as moderate work is done at AFW, TUL, or MCI. AA also has large hanger operations at LAX, SFO, ORD, MIA, JFK, and LGA.

About the only work that is farmed out is overnight work at airports where AA has a few flights and can't justify hiring their own mechanics.
 
User avatar
sunking737
Posts: 1691
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:33 pm

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics

Wed May 25, 2005 3:56 am

As a son of an NWA mechanic, I find all comments against MX as an insult. MX have to go to school for 2 years, and be licensed by the FAA, just like the Pilots.

I have talked with my Dad about NW, the feeling is no pay cuts. The MX have given back before, why do it again.

NW has a large MX Base in MSP were they could do outside MX, why then don't they do it like AA? Because Management is not smart enough.

Most places that are doing outsourcing I have been told are stretched too thin.

NWA may get some replacement workers but most of them will be MX cut from other airlines.
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"
Retired MSP Ramper
 
IslandHopperCO
Posts: 220
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:09 pm

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 6:04 am

>I find all comments against MX as an insult.

Why? Your dad provides a valuable service and deserves a decent wage, but I'm sorry, a 2-year degree should not be making six figures. My father is a hospital systems engineer with similar training and responsibilites, and he makes about 40K per year (with 30 yrs experience) and lives comfortably.

> have talked with my Dad about NW, the feeling is no pay cuts. The MX have given back before, why do it again.

To save his job and his airline. With all due respect to your father, unionized labor needs to pull the fingers out of their ears and accept wages in-line with those in other industries. If not, they deserve to be laid off.
 
IslandHopperCO
Posts: 220
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:09 pm

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 6:13 am

>NW has a large MX Base in MSP were they could do outside MX, why then don't they do it like AA? Because Management is not smart enough.

AA got the Fokker 100 contract because they're the only US facility that knows how to service those odd orphans. Only USAir and AA operated them here.

How do you suggest NWA compete in the MX market paying their mechanics six figure salaries? No brilliance from management can do that...
 
Braniff727
Posts: 656
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 2:25 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 6:28 am

It stinks that it has to come to this, but what other choice do companies have when you have crooks like the (dis)Honorable Judge Eugene Wedoff keeping the anchors of the industry from sinking to the bottom of the sea where they should be.

Because said anchors are allowed to continue to keep their fares below what it costs them to actually operate a route, all other viable entities must do the same because they need to be competitive.

Of course, as stated above, the honeymoon of high paid workers in the airline industry is over. At least for now. The employees need to understand that either they accept the fact that wages in their industry are going down, or they too can be on a sinking ship.
Climbing
 
LMP737
Posts: 6156
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 7:06 am

Quoting IslandHopperCO (Reply 22):
Why? Your dad provides a valuable service and deserves a decent wage, but I'm sorry, a 2-year degree should not be making six figures. My father is a hospital systems engineer with similar training and responsibilities, and he makes about 40K per year (with 30 yrs experience) and lives comfortably.

Says who, you? I always get a kick out of people telling others what they should and should not make. Especially when they have no idea what they are talking about. By the way the only aircraft mechanics I know who make six figures are the ones who work 20+ hours overtime in a week. The ones that do are few and far between even in good times. Now a days they are pretty much an extinct species now that a lot of airlines have cut pay scales and have reduced the amount of overtime available.

When you compare the responsibilities of your dad to an AMT what do you base this on? Actual experience in the field? Or are you just guessing. Now I'm sure your dad works hard and deserves every dime he makes, probably. But when you compare what he does to what an AMT does you are comparing apples and oranges. Besides I'm quite sure you would not like someone saying he makes to much money now would you.

[Edited 2005-05-25 00:12:50]

[Edited 2005-05-25 00:13:31]
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 7:10 am

Quoting Alphascan (Reply 16):
Presently NW does 63% of its own maintenance work, more than any other US legacy according to CEO Doug Steenland in a StarTribune article published last month.

I believe the figure at AA is about 80%.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TRAVEL/03/03/airline.maintenance/
 
LMP737
Posts: 6156
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 7:11 am

Quoting IslandHopperCO (Reply 14):
I have a masters degree making $35K per year and live comfortably. Please excuse me for not shedding a tear for those making $50-100K who have a 2-year mechanics certificate. Union labor rates are obsolete, face facts.

You have a masters degree and you only make $35K a year? Seems to me you should gotten a masters degree in something else. Another thing, you live in LA comfortably on $35K a year? Are you still living with your parents or are you commuting in from Lancaster?
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
daedaeg
Posts: 627
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:54 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 7:38 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 27):
You have a masters degree and you only make $35K a year? Seems to me you should gotten a masters degree in something else. Another thing, you live in LA comfortably on $35K a year? Are you still living with your parents or are you commuting in from Lancaster?

LMP737 you took the words right out of my mouth. I was wondering the exact same thing.

Quoting IslandHopperCO (Reply 22):
My father is a hospital systems engineer with similar training and responsibilites, and he makes about 40K per year (with 30 yrs experience) and lives comfortably.

And you have a father who is a 30 year systems engineer only making 40K? I think it's time you guys had a family meeting on career selection, because something ain't right.
Everyday you're alive is a good day.
 
DC10GUY
Posts: 2590
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 5:52 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 7:49 am

Hey JMV,
"Too bad the union won't allow NW to get rid of the bad mechanics, the poor performers. Quality of maintenance could actually improve if this were properly thought out and executed correctly. Unfortunately, it will be all about seniority."[/quote]
How would you suggest they get rid of the "bad" mechanics ??? Also how can you tell the difference from a bad mechanic vs a good one ??? Just wondering.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
aogdesk
Posts: 748
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:26 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 8:28 am

Those of you sitting on the sidelines ought to do some listening instead of spouting off about your vast aircraft maintenance knowledge.

Name a product/service/business/corporation that doesn't have quality control problems when their work is outsourced. Its an inherent problem, and companies who go that route have to make some tough decisions about how they're going to maintain quality assurance. There are a ton of mechanics out there (myself included) who are VERY concerned about the quality of maintenance, and many believe that airlines are out of control with respect to maintenance.

Forget the argument that because you have a masters, you must be that much more important than someone who has a lowly mechanics certificate. Sounds like instead of finding something more lucrative for yourself, you'd rather belitte someone who makes more than you. Are you making the assertion that I should be paid less than $35k? (laughing so hard I'm going to pee my pants) I'm sure your job is very important, get off your high horse, find another way to stroke your ego.

From your aisle seat, you can't see the complex systems that get your butt from here to there. All you want is your $59 ticket. Fact is, air travel is the premium form of travel, airplanes are expensive to purchase and expensive to maintain. The jobs are going to UN-licensed and in some cases, illegal aliens.
 
ComeAndGo
Posts: 815
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:58 pm

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 8:32 am

Now that NWA ordered the 787 they need no more mechanics.

super-glue will do.
 
User avatar
chrisnh
Posts: 4135
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 3:59 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 8:38 am

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Thread starter):
Looks like NWA is 2nd in line behind UA to eliminate quality aircraft maintenance and outsource it to the cheapest possible vendor.

While keeping DC-9s that were built before the pyramids? Oh, that'll work.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 8:42 am

Actually in my experience, MX often gets outsourced to small companies, which totally depend on one or a few customers. These companies get put iunder pressure by the airlines, in this way: "We want our plane to fly again next week. We will pay you a lump sum for this check, no matter what snags you find. If the plane is not ready on this and this date, we´ll be looking for another company to do our maintenance!". The pressure gets handed down to the AMTs, who get pushed to cut corners to meet the deadlines. If something happens, the airline can push all the responsibilty on the contracting maintenance company, which will push it again on the AMT, who signed for the job. On the other hand, if he refuses to cut corners, he can be sure that the company will be using the next opportunity to get rid of him (currently happening to me).

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
aogdesk
Posts: 748
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:26 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 8:52 am

For those of you that are so eager to dismiss the concerns of mechanics and avoid the realities of the business, Jan's previous post defines to a T what most mechanics already know.
 
IslandHopperCO
Posts: 220
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:09 pm

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics

Wed May 25, 2005 9:13 am

>You have a masters degree and you only make $35K a year?

Yes, I work for a well respected non-profit org that does medical work around the world. I live near Riverside where you could buy a nice 3br house for $100K four years ago (which I did), so yes, I do fine on my salary. My father lives in NC and that is the going rate for his job. I used his job as a comparison because he has life-and-death responsibilities in his work, and requires a 2 year certificate much like aircraft MX.

I'm elitist, eh? My dad has a 2-year certificate and I greatly respect him and his work...that has NOTHING to do with his pay rate. A janitor and a brain surgeon all have important roles in society. I chose my job because of the satisfaction I get there, obviously not for the money.

>The jobs are going to UN-licensed and in some cases, illegal aliens.

Free market rules. If somebody is equally qualified as you, willing to do your job up to the same strict federal standards for half the wage, why don't they deserve to get your job? Because they weren't born American? Coddled union jobs with above-market wages are doomed...its just a matter of time. Accept what the market is willing to pay you or stop complaining about outsourcing.

[Edited 2005-05-25 02:14:50]

[Edited 2005-05-25 02:24:17]
 
highguy76
Posts: 174
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 10:38 pm

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 9:17 am

Those of you who work outside the industry and are enjoying telling those "awful, overpaid airline employee's" to bend over and take their paycuts better wake up. Your industry, your job, your pay will be next.

In any business, you get what you negotiate. These employees have spent years negotiating and working for what they earn. After all that, would you expect them just to lie down and not fight against bad business models and practices?

I'm not always a big fan of my own union, but without it, what keeps my job safe, my paycheck intact, and all that I've worked for over the last several years from falling apart?
Do we really want a society where our pay or jobs can be cut without our input, where we move from job to job, never building any security, stability, or long term career?
Welcome to the next third world nation, the USA.

Highguy76
 
aogdesk
Posts: 748
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:26 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 9:35 am

Quoting IslandHopperCO (Reply 35):
willing to do your job up to the same strict federal standards for half the wage

Ok, obviously your highly touted masters degree isn't in communications, because you either misread or ignored my point. In question are those "strict federal standards" that you seem to think govern everything. Those standards put in place for your safety are slowly being dismantled all for the sake of economics, and those within the industry know that.

Are you going to humor me and say that you won't have a problem if your boss comes to you tomorrow and tells you that a worker in Bangladesh has accepted your job for $5k a year? Do you really think thats a good way to sutain a nation, constantly shop overseas for cheaper (read slave) labor, until we just become a nation of consumers?

I'm not stupid, and I can see over both sides of the fence. Business can be difficult, and there are tough choices to make. But make no mistake, large corporations can and will sell your safety if it helps the shareholders.
 
DC8FriendShip
Posts: 235
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:35 pm

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 10:56 am

Quoting IslandHopperCO (Reply 14):
Please excuse me for not shedding a tear for those making $50-100K who have a 2-year mechanics certificate.



Quoting IslandHopperCO (Reply 22):

To save his job and his airline. With all due respect to your father, unionized labor needs to pull the fingers out of their ears and accept wages in-line with those in other industries.



Quoting IslandHopperCO (Reply 22):
Your dad provides a valuable service and deserves a decent wage, but I'm sorry, a 2-year degree should not be making six figures. My father is a hospital systems engineer with similar training and responsibilites, and he makes about 40K per year (with 30 yrs experience) and lives comfortably.

Those guys with a 2-year certificate, as you say, are responsible for the lives of the many people who fly the planes they service, not just morally, but also legally. How many of you can say that your job puts all that on you'r shoulders? They also go through continuous training, to familiarize with new aircraft and to familiarize with new or different procedures.
How much is that worth to you?
Is your life worth paying the guy a wage similar or less than that of an auto mechanic?
Or should he be compensated like the Qualified proffessional that he is?
My vote is for the latter. Real trouble is not with the payrates of the general workforce of the legacy carriers, it is the business practices they have used for years, and it's time for that to change. then maybe some real progress will be made.
Come fly the Friendly Skies of United
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:22 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 11:01 am

We have all had our two cents worth on this topic, so here's mine.
Its a ploy by NW to get the union to say "hey wait a minute, lets talk about this". They can negotiate a deal that would cut wages and benefits, just what NW wants BUT retain members, just what the union wants. Remember, the union needs members for strength through the membership dues. The more members that pay dues, the stronger the union. Lets see the next move in this chess game of minds.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
TPASXM787
Posts: 1667
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:31 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 11:03 am

Those of you who work outside the industry and are enjoying telling those "awful, overpaid airline employee's" to bend over and take their paycuts better wake up. Your industry, your job, your pay will be next.

>>>In my industry, as with most, you can just lose your job. If the company isn't doing well, you don't get to negotiate. You get fired. This union mentality is unreal. Let's get it straight here. You negotiated high salaries when the company was doing well, so the don't have the right to come to you when they are not doing well? These companies are losing billions every year. I will never be so ignorant to say that I want this airline to go under or these people to lose their jobs like some others on here. That is insolent. But, there is a point where no more money can be hemmoraged. Without help from employees, who are the lucky minority that has the ability to negotiate, these companies will be bankrupt, and then no one will have a job. Unfortunately it's bigger than any one person or group, and that's they way it is in a capitalist economy. If a company is losing money, choices have to be made and they are always difficult.
This is the Last Stop.
 
User avatar
coronado
Posts: 1278
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 1999 9:42 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 11:18 am

I think the DC9s are simply starting to cost too much. They take up a disproportionate amount of maintenance dollars.


Having said that NWA should talk to its buddies at Airbus (maybe not so close buddies after the787 instead of A350 decision) and really focus on building up Duluth as a A319/320 heavy base. With America West, US Air, United, Frontier, AC and NWA fleets all aging and getting close to the full rebuilds in the next 2-4 years, they could really build a profit center at Duluth MN if they set their miinds to it. Duluth is centrally located and wage rates if they are negotiated could be competitive. Todays Star Tribune had article on 'outsourcing' insourcing within the US to lower wage rates. And if Duluth union does not want to play I can think of an AFB in Rapid City that would be ecstatic at prospects of becoming an Airbus maintenance hub in north america.
The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
 
incitatus
Posts: 3391
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 11:21 am

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 37):
I'm not stupid, and I can see over both sides of the fence. Business can be difficult, and there are tough choices to make. But make no mistake, large corporations can and will sell your safety if it helps the shareholders.

Oh yeah right... and then after "safety is sold", how many plane crashes with mx negligence NTSB reports does it take to shut down the whole company? Does that help the shareholders?

No cheap scare tactics please.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
incitatus
Posts: 3391
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 11:25 am

Salaries are ultimately determined in the marketplace. Unions that inflate the salaries of their members well beyond market values by pressuring the top management of a company are setting themselves and their members for failure. See multiple cases in the airline industry, this being the latest.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
aogdesk
Posts: 748
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:26 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 11:52 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 42):
No cheap scare tactics please.

Your qualifications please??

Mine: Licensed A&P Mechanic, B727, B757, B767, A300, DC-8, DC-9 experience, 16 years in the industry.
 
aogdesk
Posts: 748
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:26 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 12:02 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 43):
Salaries are ultimately determined in the marketplace

You are 100% correct. However, I'm not arguging about salaries, I'm talking about safety. There's a difference. Unfortunately for workers in some industries, their work can indeed be done at a much lower cost overseas, but it doesn't affect safety. If a manufacturer can produce his product for 25% of the cost of producing it in the US, then he's probably going to do it. Its unfortunate, but its a reality.

In aviation, as was described in a previous posting, which you probably carefully avoided because you're only qualified to have an outsiders opinion, a very real issue of financial pressures overcoming a decent system of safety related checks and balances was described.

Your heart obviously bleeds for these companies that are losing billions. If you were to have been on the receiving end of some of the events that have unfolded over the last ten or so years, you might have a different opinion. Might. Or you might be close minded, which is probably more realistic.
 
StevenUhl777
Topic Author
Posts: 3281
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 11:02 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 12:09 pm

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Thread starter):
Looks like NWA is 2nd in line behind UA to eliminate quality aircraft maintenance and outsource it to the cheapest possible vendor.

I stand behind my original words. It's a race to the bottom when it comes to price, and something has to suffer, and that's usually the quality of the work. Sure, there are exceptions, and I'm sure there's contract workers who DO place quality over quantity. But, as stated above, many of these firms are under time (not quality) pressures to get aircraft fixed enough to get them back in the air so that people can pay $99 to fly JFK-LAX, etc.

The market DOES set price, and wages, and so on and so on. The simple fact is that the industry is in decline...the novelty of flying is long, long gone in the minds of the public. They don't see what's involved in making their $99 flight possible behind the scenes, and they don't care, either. For that reason, the supply of cheap seats is high and that lowers demand for premium seats, resulting in lower overall ticket prices, and behind the scenes, ultimately lower wages. Sure, it's economics 101, I can easily draw the supply and demand curves and explain them. But, it's still a race to the bottom. When and where will it stop? Even if the NWA mechanics accept a paycut, when does the next round come? And the round after that? At some point, they will choose their dignity over a dead-end street and consider other opportunities outside the airline industry, and that seems to be the case at UA, US, and probably other airlines as well in the same situation. Why stay in a losing situation? It's a lose-lose proposition for any employee group in situations like this...regardless of how the vote goes...and I'd rather see the employees who dedicated themselves to their work ultimately be the ones that make the decision to "pull the plug" for good, rather some judge or investor group who doesn't give one iota what happens to them.

Personally, I don't want to fly on the airline (UA or otherwise) that has the lowest paid pilots, lowest paid mechanics, and so on. You get what you pay for, and unlike the masses, I personally am willing to pay more to get more, especially when I'm putting my life in someone else's hands, and not just the pilots, but also the mechanics and f/a's and dispatchers, etc. who all play a role in getting a flight from A to B.

The whole situation makes me angrier the more I think about it. I could tell you how my Dad is affected by all this at UA, but won't, because it finally occurred to me that no one on a-net really gives a shit about him or any other airline employee and the impact on them. It's all anti-union drivel and lectures on free market capitalism. Save it. Someone always wins, someone always loses. Glenn Tilton gets a $4.5 MILLION GUARANTEED PENSION...the employees who have been there a lot longer and have worked a lot harder GET 25% TAKEN AWAY, with no chance to ever earn that back, especially for those with 15+ years.

I'm not sure that I want to see UA survive as a cheap, no frills, low-quality airline post-Ch. 11, because it's an insult to those who made it great over the past several decades only to see it piss away due to greed and poor management of its assets. Let the employees decide their own fates. Loyalty and teamwork is a two-way street...when that breaks down, everything else starts breaking down, too.
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
andrewuber
Posts: 2142
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:45 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 12:15 pm

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Thread starter):
Looks like NWA is 2nd in line behind UA to eliminate quality aircraft maintenance and outsource it to the cheapest possible vendor.

Union employees, making $32 per hour, that costs NWA somewhere in the neighborhood of $60 per hour (with benefits, payroll taxes, etc). Would you rather the unions stay on at NWA for another year or two until they run out of money and file bankruptcy??

Quoting KL911 (Reply 9):
so what's the problem? If NW can work cheaper, we can fly cheaper...

NW CAN'T work cheaper. Read the line above.

For all you folks who plan to moan and complain when an airline subcontracts out services - you better grab some tissue, it's only just begun. Outsourcing is an inexpensive, dependable and safe way to do business. I know this - I own a subcontracting company. I have hired more airline employees than I've displaced - and I treat them as well if not better.

What you need to realize is that airlines must "re-invent the wheel" if they are going to survive. It's as plain and simple as that. Those who think outside the box will succeed. Those who follow the long standing rules and policies of these legacy carriers will have the same unfortunate fate as many of these UAL retirees. It's sad and horribly unfair to them, but that's what happens when entrenched management follows the 1960's rulebooks.
I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
 
N867BX
Posts: 295
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:19 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 12:15 pm

Quoting Dc10guy (Reply 29):
How would you suggest they get rid of the "bad" mechanics ??? Also how can you tell the difference from a bad mechanic vs a good one ??? Just wondering.

In many nonunion occupations a performance review is used to determine wages and promotions.

I have a question for any NW mechanics out there. Can you honestly say that you do a full days work everyday. Maybe you do an honest days work, but can you look around and say that your coworkers do an honest days work. I don't feel sorry for workers that lack productivity. I think productivity of union workers is much more of a problem than high pay rates. Maybe if you guys did an honest days work you would not be having these problems. I am speaking from personal experience, some of you guys act like its a friggin game to see how little one can accomplish at work.
 
n844aa
Posts: 1266
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:38 am

RE: NWA Wants To Eliminate Half Of Their Mechanics!

Wed May 25, 2005 12:31 pm

Quoting Highguy76 (Reply 36):
Those of you who work outside the industry and are enjoying telling those "awful, overpaid airline employee's" to bend over and take their paycuts better wake up. Your industry, your job, your pay will be next.

In any business, you get what you negotiate. These employees have spent years negotiating and working for what they earn. After all that, would you expect them just to lie down and not fight against bad business models and practices?

I'm not always a big fan of my own union, but without it, what keeps my job safe, my paycheck intact, and all that I've worked for over the last several years from falling apart?
Do we really want a society where our pay or jobs can be cut without our input, where we move from job to job, never building any security, stability, or long term career?

Can I say "amen" to this? I don't know why so many people subscribe to the theory that collective bargaining is in some way evil, or anti-competitive or reeking of -- eeeew! -- socialism. Not at all! It's the free market at work, with both sides seeking to maximize their leverage.

Anyway, last time I checked, the United States economy did pretty well back when unions were a lot stronger than they are now. There are some corrupt and grossly overpaid trade unionists, much like there are lazy, overpaid independent contractors doing little more than dazzling clients with meaningless managementese (proactive paradigms!). You get some good apples with bad. But that doesn't mean you can characterize everyone in a union as unworthy of his or her wage.

Frankly, I wish we had stronger unions, particularly these days when corporate profits are at record levels. For a long time, a portion of those profits made it back to workers in the form of steady raises and generous health benefits, and the economy did well. (What's good for GM is good for the United States, and all that.) With the current trends, I worry about an economic crunch coming a few years down the road.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos