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rsmith6621a
Topic Author
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The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 11:24 am

"No pact by Tuesday could result in 20,000-person strike"

"Our goal remains to reach a fair settlement for IAM members that would make a bankruptcy court ruling to abrogate our contracts unnecessary," Randy Canale, president of IAM District 141, said in a communique to members Monday afternoon. "However, Judge Wedoff is scheduled to issue his ruling on Tuesday ... at 1:30 p.m. CDT, and we must be prepared if he rules in United's favor."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8038903/

*********************

Will the Judge side with UAL?? Will UAL cave in on the pension issue to save itself from certian liquidation???Will the Union only be able to use its gums in these final hours and cave in???

The 24 hours ought to be interesting.....Ill let you know what its like to carry a PICKET sign maybe as soon as tommorow night.
Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
 
avek00
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 11:29 am

Quoting Rsmith6621a (Thread starter):
Will the Judge side with UAL??

The BK Judge will likely side with United, provided that the company has fulfilled the nine conditions necessary for labor contract abrogation. The more interesting question is whether a strike is permissible when a RLA contract is abrogated within bankruptcy proceedings - it's a matter of first impression for the court, and there is legal support for both allowing and prohibiting a strike.

[Edited 2005-05-31 04:30:28]
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Kahala777
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 11:40 am

Quoting Rsmith6621a (Thread starter):
Will the Judge side with UAL??

Hello.... This is the same judge that has sided with Management on almost every single issue that has been brought before him!

 banghead 


Regards - Kahala777
 
avek00
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 11:41 am

Here's the nine-part test established by the In re American Provision Co. that a Debtor must satisfy in order to receive relief under Section 1113(c):

1. The debtor in possession must make a proposal to the Union to modify the
collective bargaining agreement.

2. The proposal must be based on the most complete and reliable information
available at the time of the proposal.

3. The proposed modifications must be necessary to permit the reorganization of the debtor.

4. The proposed modifications must assure that all creditors, the debtor and all of the affected parties are treated fairly and equitably.

5. The debtor must provide to the Union such relevant information as is necessary to evaluate the proposal.

6. Between the time of the making of the proposal and the time of the hearing on approval of the rejection of the existing collective bargaining agreement, the debtor must meet at reasonable times with the Union.

7. At the meetings the debtor must confer in good faith in attempting to reach
mutually satisfactory modifications of the collective bargaining agreement.

8. The Union must have refused to accept the proposal without good cause.

9. The balance of the equities must clearly favor rejection of the collective
bargaining agreement.

[Edited 2005-05-31 04:44:10]
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SFOMEX
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 11:43 am

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 2):
Hello.... This is the same judge that has sided with Management on almost every single issue that has been brought before him!

That may be true. Yet, have you considered that maybe United management was just right "on almost every single issue that has been brought before (the judge)"?

I, for once, think that saving United is the priority.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
zvezda
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 11:54 am

Of course, Judge Wedoff is overwhelmingly likely to rule in UA's favor on the question of contract abrogation. No plausible case can be made that any of the nine conditions listed above have not been met. The judge is required to follow the precedent set by the higher court. Slam dunk.

There is a somewhat greater chance that Judge Wedoff might rule that a strike is legal under the circumstances, but it is still unlikely. UA's case that a strike would be illegal is quite strong. The IAM's case that a strike would be legal is at least plausible, but it is tenuous. Anyone going on strike today should reasonably expect to be fired.
 
Kahala777
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 11:57 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 3):
1. The debtor in possession must make a proposal to the Union to modify the
collective bargaining agreement.

This has NOT been done!

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 3):
2. The proposal must be based on the most complete and reliable information
available at the time of the proposal.

This has NOT been done!

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 3):
3. The proposed modifications must be necessary to permit the reorganization of the debtor.

This has NOT been done!

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 3):
4. The proposed modifications must assure that all creditors, the debtor and all of the affected parties are treated fairly and equitably.

This has NOT been done!

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 3):
5. The debtor must provide to the Union such relevant information as is necessary to evaluate the proposal.

This has NOT been done!

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 4):
I, for once, think that saving United is the priority.

The United States suffers from overcapacity.

United Airlines, serves nothing that is nto duplicated, or viable with another airline.

So what if a person cant fly from Sacramento to San Francisco, then can take Amtrak.

So what if a person cannot fly Chicago to Sao Paulo. They can fly American via Dallas or Miami.

So what if a person cannot fly Hong Kong to Chicago. They can fly Cathay to Narita, and then American to Chicago.

So what if a person cant fly Nagoya to San Francisco. They can fly JAL connecting at Narita.


Regards - Kahala777
 
rsmith6621a
Topic Author
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 12:03 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 5):
Anyone going on strike today should reasonably expect to be fired.

The 26000 employees at UAL who will be greatly affected THANK YOU!! for your support.....
Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
 
avek00
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 12:04 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 5):
The IAM's case that a strike would be legal is at least plausible, but it is tenuous.

True - while the IAM's argument is supported on public policy grounds (we don't want to force people to work for terms they never agreed to), UAL's argument has more legal rationale behind it (IAM can't seek to strike under RLA if an RLA contract no longer exists).
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UALPHLCS
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 12:16 pm

Kahala777 works in Hawaiian hotels industry, a totaly saturated market. I think your hotel should be closed. Obviously there are plenty of hotels on the islands. Between all those hotels and the timeshares getting a room in HNL is took easy and to inexpensive. Time to forcibly make some of that conpetition go away.
If a person can't stay on the islands then they can take a Hawaiian cruise.

We all get it Kahala777 you hate UA for some reason. Either contribute in a constructive manner or shut up. "Take Amtrak" how much do you have to hate an airline to say that. Your shrill posts will make me laugh. I mean really its an airline, the way you post you make it sound like its the Nazi party.

"UA dosen't serve anything unique!" That's not the point you dolt. The point is to have competition. Oh wait wasn't it you who thought that competion is what's killin UA. Please if your going to rant at least keep your rants from contridicting one another.
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LAXintl
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 12:20 pm

From reading the tea leaves what will happen in court tomorrow could very well be the following.

The judge abrogates the IAM contract and at the same time issues a restraining order barring the union from taking any job action.

United has managed to meet all requirements and to this date has negotiated in good faith with the union. The company finds itself in a position were it cannot meet the unions last remaining demand to join the national IAM defined benefits pension plan, and thus must seek the courts consent to abrogate the union contract.

With a ruling baring a union walkout, the IAM would be in the very tough spot of either ignoring the order or using the appellate process to push for their right to strike which could take some time.
If the union decides to walk it could very well open itself up to serious legal and financial liability. Just ask the AA pilots who almost saw their union go bankrupt as a result of what was an illegal job action in 1999.

Lastly there could always the situation of a strike being launched and the White House forcing the union to return to work by outlawing it.

For those that think this might be a remote case, check out the below link. In 2001, President Bush would do "whatever it takes" to prevent a walkout by the then 15,000 IAM represented mechanics at United Airlines.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/nov2001/unit-n22.shtml

[Edited 2005-05-31 05:24:24]
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
avek00
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 12:24 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 10):
Lastly there could always the situation of a strike being launched and the White House forcing the union to return to work by outlawing it.

This is actually the least likely scenario, since the White House would not be able to order the IAM to work under a then-nonexistent contract. The PEB option presumes that a binding contract previously agreed to by the parties is still in place - that would not be the case if the judge grants an abrogation.
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rsmith6621a
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 12:27 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 10):
The judge abrogates the IAM contract and at the same time issues a restraining order barring the union from taking any job action.

The BK Judge has no authority to issue that kind of order.
Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
 
Airlinerfreak
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 12:30 pm

Excuse my ignorance with this question, but I have a flight on UA this next Sunday, should I expect it to be very delayed if not cancelled or will all of their operations be as they normally are?
 
rsmith6621a
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 12:36 pm

Quoting Airlinerfreak (Reply 13):
Excuse my ignorance with this question, but I have a flight on UA this next Sunday, should I expect it to be very delayed if not cancelled or will all of their operations be as they normally are?

Procede with caution and dont say you have been warned.....Good luck on getting rebooked if you try calling RES if there is a strike.....they will be outside. I hope the management has been practicing their Apollo/FastRes skills....they will most certianly need it.
Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 12:38 pm

Quoting Airlinerfreak (Reply 13):
Excuse my ignorance with this question, but I have a flight on UA this next Sunday, should I expect it to be very delayed if not cancelled or will all of their operations be as they normally are?

Plan to show up at the airport as planned, perhaps giving yourself an additional hour to accomodate the longer lines. UA will work to reroute you on another airline or on United. I would also recommend contacting United directly.

That's IF there is a strike.
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
Kahala777
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 12:40 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 9):
The point is to have competition

Yes, of which in the United States there is way to much of!

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 9):
Oh wait wasn't it you who thought that competion is what's killin UA

United Airlines waiting around to long before they did something to reach the service level of the competition.

United Airlines not listening to what so many of its Mileage Plus members wanted in the Trans Con market

United Airlines Management running the airline into a paradim of Southwest, US Air, and Pan Am.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 9):
Kahala777 works in Hawaiian hotels industry

No, not the Hawaiian hotel industry!

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 9):
a totaly saturated market

In Hawaii, you have a choice. You can be cheap and get a place 4 blocks from the beach. You can be a spender and have a place on the ocean. It is all a matter of choice. One thing that you can be sure of in Hawaii, is that hotels in Hawaii, as in Las Vegas all have a very definite niche. Unlike United Airlines, hotels in Las Vegas, and Hawaii will always be in demand!

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 9):
I think your hotel should be closed

Ha Ha... Not going to happen... BTW, I work in NYC!

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 9):
Time to forcibly make some of that conpetition go away

In Honolulu(Waikiki), it is. The hotel row located on Lewers Street is being torn down to make way for more upscale properties and an increase in residential and leisure luxury condominiums.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 9):
If a person can't stay on the islands then they can take a Hawaiian cruise.

Yes you can cruise the Hawaiian Islands as well.. You have a choice now.. Norweigian, Cunard, Celebrity, Carnival, Princess, Royal Caribbean, and Holland America. It all depends on the time of year. In addition in Hawaii, they are looking at a return to ferrys and what not between the islands!

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 9):
Either contribute in a constructive manner or shut up. "Take Amtrak" how much do you have to hate an airline to say that.

A Lot...

By the Way..

SMF-SFO

Check In
(10 Minutes if you dont check in online)
Security
(10 minutes if there is not the typical line)
Wait at the Gate/Boarding
(20-25 Minutes)
Fly to San Francisco
(20-40 minutes depending on weather and airborne traffic)
Taxi to the gate
(5-10 minutes depending on ground traffic and available space)
Claim your Bags
(15-25 minutes if you didnt bring a carry on)
Transfer into Downtown
(30-45 Minutes depending on the time of day)

.. You could have been in the city for a good 45 minutes, in the time it took for you to fly United Express to SFO!


Regards - Kahala777
 
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LAXintl
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 12:42 pm

"The BK Judge has no authority to issue that kind of order."


You want to bet? That is exactly what the judge did with AFA group when he terminated their pension plan a few weeks back. The judge made it clear to the AFA group that their threatened "chaos" campaign was not legal, and there was no legal ground for the union to do anything that could potentially harm the company.

United will likely tomorrow request permanent relief for several areas of the IAM contract that have been under temporary cuts till this time.

Accordingly, the judge just like with the AFA union, could very well tell the IAM that the changes to their contract are not legal grounds for job action.

Then what does the IAM do? Like the AFA drop all the rhetoric and just get on with work.

Anyways, should be interesting tomorrow to watch the attorneys spar.
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rsmith6621a
Topic Author
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Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 2:21 pm

RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 12:52 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 17):
You want to bet? That is exactly what the judge did with AFA group when he terminated their pension plan a few weeks back. The judge made it clear to the AFA group that their threatened "chaos" campaign was not legal, and there was no legal ground for the union to do anything that could potentially harm the company.

Laxintl.........Do you really think without contracts that provided security for the workers that a judges order will mean SQUAT??????.....Everything that has happened to the worker that has been lost under the guise of 9/11 and high fuel prices will never be returned back....NEVER!!!

If they'ed just admit they want to run on low cost and offer severance packages to those who dont want to give anymore back they(UAL) would look a whole lot better.
Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 12:52 pm

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 16):
Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 9):
Either contribute in a constructive manner or shut up. "Take Amtrak" how much do you have to hate an airline to say that.

A Lot...

What has happened for lhr001 to turn his views on United 180 degrees?
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
aeronuts
Posts: 110
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 1:11 pm

By the Way..

SMF-SFO

Check In
(10 Minutes if you dont check in online)
Security
(10 minutes if there is not the typical line)
Wait at the Gate/Boarding
(20-25 Minutes)
Fly to San Francisco
(20-40 minutes depending on weather and airborne traffic)
Taxi to the gate
(5-10 minutes depending on ground traffic and available space)
Claim your Bags
(15-25 minutes if you didnt bring a carry on)
Transfer into Downtown
(30-45 Minutes depending on the time of day)

.. You could have been in the city for a good 45 minutes, in the time it took for you to fly United Express to SFO!


Regards - Kahala777

Guess you haven't drive from Sacramento to San Francisco during commute hours??
 
Kahala777
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 1:20 pm

Quoting Aeronuts (Reply 21):
Guess you haven't drive from Sacramento to San Francisco during commute hours??

Well... If you commute, you will know that Amtrak is loaded to the gills every morning!

Well... If you commute by car you would be smart enough to leave before the bulk of the traffic starts!



Regards - Kahala777
 
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LAXintl
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 1:23 pm

I believe the unions are expectant for United to seek and the court to issue a restraining order barring any immediate work action.

From the AMFA web site, Q&A

5. I have heard that a judge may issue a Temporary Restraining Order (TRO) if we go on strike – what does this mean?

A. Since no bankruptcy proceeding in the airline industry has ever reached the point of the union striking over forced changes to a CBA it is possible that the company would go to a judge and ask him to stop the strike until the court ruled as to the legality of the strike. The judge may issue a TRO requiring the strikers to stop the strike and to return to work. This gives the judge several days in which to more fully consider each side’s arguments on the issue of the right to strike, after which he may decide to withdraw the TRO and confirm our belief that we have the right to strike, or to extend the temporary act by way of an Injunction confirming UAL’s position.


7. What would happen if we ignored the TRO or Injunction and continued to strike?

A. History has shown that violating a judge’s order can result in the union being fined an amount equal to the determined loss of revenue caused by the refusal of the union to stop the act the judge ordered stopped. In some instances union officers and individual members have been identified and personally fined.


For the complete Q&A
http://www.amfanatl.org/Pages/06_New...tion/UAL/StrickQ&A_SP_5-30-05.html
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 1:23 pm

Well... If you knew anything about airlines you would be smart enough to not judge the purpose of an airline based on a token route that is predominantly for connecting traffic to a HUB rather than a morning commute.

Possibly?
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
nisson
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 1:27 pm

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 20):
Regards - Kahala777

PEOPLE, people, people!! PLEASE dont let someones comments effect you on responding to a post, that seems to be in totally derespectful in humanity , yes thats what I think of you KAHALA777, we have a choice to ignore such comments, with the facts being overblow by someone posting negative responses about a company which he does not know everything about, if you do not work for that company, dont assume you are the know it all person, GET YOU FACTS STRAIGHT. BTW, I CHOSE TO IGNORE THIS USER(KAHALA777) FUTURE POSTINGS. I WILL NOT RESPOND TO YOU, (KAHALA777 ). May you have a nice life, or should I say, GET A LIFE. AGAIN, I CHOOSE TO IGNORE KAHALA777.
 
aa777flyer
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 1:30 pm

What is the likely hood the judge will again refuse to make a decision and order both sides back to the negotiating table?
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Kahala777
Posts: 1513
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 1:31 pm

Quoting Nisson (Reply 24):
I WILL NOT RESPOND TO YOU, (KAHALA777 ).

Oh I am so afraid.... Please!

Bra, ya need a life!

Get over it. This is a forum and we can say what we want as long as it is in the realm of the topic.

Back to the Topic.... Tick Tock.... United Airlines clocking is ticking!


Regards - Kahala777
 
rsmith6621a
Topic Author
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 1:40 pm

Quoting Aa777flyer (Reply 25):
What is the likely hood the judge will again refuse to make a decision and order both sides back to the negotiating table?

How many more times does UAL need to do the right thing. For God sake....they have had numerous extensions to get their CRAP together and still havent....my hope is that the Judge will finally have enough brains to say the clock has ran out....most of the UAL employees have already prepared to accept the reallity of any decession that favors UAL.
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aa777flyer
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 1:42 pm

In addition to the IAM issues is'nt the AMFA (Mechanics) union voting on their contract tomorrow? Is that not the same contract they voted down months ago?
In any event best of luck to my friends at United, you know who you are and the pizza was good! LOL!

I really dont believe there will be a stike.
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StevenUhl777
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 1:45 pm

Quoting Aa777flyer (Reply 25):
What is the likely hood the judge will again refuse to make a decision and order both sides back to the negotiating table?

EXTREMELY high...the two sides had made significant progress at the time of the last deadline, and it was extended in hopes of reaching an agreement. The fact there's only one issue left, on which progress has been made this weekend (based on the IAM website) only increases the likelihood that:

a.) an agreement will be reached between now and 13:30 CDT tomorrow, or
b.) Judge Wedoff will grant an extension, probably not quite 10 days, until they do reach an agreement. The fact he has granted these extensions in the past, like he did with AMFA (who did reach a t/a as a result, by the way) indicates he is more interested in seeing a negotiated settlement.
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 1:48 pm

Quoting Aa777flyer (Reply 28):
is'nt the AMFA (Mechanics) union voting on their contract tomorrow?

Electronic voting began two weeks ago, and the voting ends tomorrow morning and the results will be announced then.
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
Kahala777
Posts: 1513
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 1:48 pm

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 29):
EXTREMELY high...the two sides had made significant progress at the time of the last deadline, and it was extended in hopes of reaching an agreement.

As much as I am not a fan of StevenUhl777, he is absolutely correct here. The judge for one is paranoid that if he does rule pro Management, he will end up being refered to as a proponent of United Airlines liquidation if it does happen, due to strike.


Regards - Kahala777
 
aa777jr
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 1:52 pm

Is Judge Wedoff flying for free on UA?  Smile

I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel for UA.  Sad
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
airlinelover
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 1:54 pm

The 24 hours ought to be interesting.....Ill let you know what its like to carry a PICKET sign maybe as soon as tommorow night.

While my best wishes go out to all UAL employees, I must say that if they hire people like you it's no wonder they're in trouble.

Chris
Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
 
aa777jr
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 1:58 pm

While my best wishes go out to all UAL employees, I must say that if they hire people like you it's no wonder they're in trouble.

I just fell outta my chair reading this.  Smile

Guess we'll know in the morning if UA is gonna be flying still.

Best Regards to all UA employees.
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 2:00 pm

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 26):
Get over it. This is a forum and we can say what we want as long as it is in the realm of the topic.

No it isn't, and if you are going to be that emotional, may I suggest a cold shower or:



Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 16):
United Airlines Management running the airline into a paradim of Southwest, US Air, and Pan Am.

That isn't even a word. Did you mean paradigm? I.E. using one as a model or template?

In that regard it's rather difficult to cast WN in the same lot as US and PanAm, as last I checked, WN is making a killing with some of the most efficent opperations around.

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 16):
Yes, of which in the United States there is way to much of!

There is over-capacity, not just competition, in virtually every industry. UA going bust would do little to solve such problems in commercial aviation as their assets would be available for sale at a dirt cheap price. Really think that HP/US or B6 would pass on a slew of IAE powered A320s hitting the market?
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
zotan
Posts: 582
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:42 am

RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 2:03 pm

Quoting Airlinelover (Reply 33):
The 24 hours ought to be interesting.....Ill let you know what its like to carry a PICKET sign maybe as soon as tommorow night.

While my best wishes go out to all UAL employees, I must say that if they hire people like you it's no wonder they're in trouble.

What exactly is that supposed to mean? Does he have no rights to strike? He was just saying the next 24 hours will be interesting, and he might have to go on strike. He never said that he hated United, or United must die.
 
StevenUhl777
Posts: 3281
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 11:02 am

RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 2:08 pm

Quoting Aa777jr (Reply 32):
Is Judge Wedoff flying for free on UA?

That would represent a HUGE conflict of interest if it were true, and Judge Wedoff would have to excuse himself from his duties and would probably be disbarred.

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 31):
As much as I am not a fan of StevenUhl777

Awww....geee....I'm just CRUSHED by this news.  Yeah sure
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
Kahala777
Posts: 1513
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:28 am

RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 2:10 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 35):
In that regard it's rather difficult to cast WN in the same lot as US and PanAm, as last I checked, WN is making a killing with some of the most efficent opperations around.

United Airlines...

TED - Direct result of B6, WN, TZ, F9
US Airways - Trying to be like US Airways and fly everywhere
PAN AM - Trying to be the international airline, while losing money left and right at home!

And you are trying to say that an airline can be all of the above? Nice.. We will see!  sarcastic 

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 35):
Really think that HP/US or B6 would pass on a slew of IAE powered A320s hitting the market?

No, but you need to take into consideration that airlines like B6/HP/US are not going through the kind of identity crisis that United Airlines is. United, is trying to be everything to everyone, and it is not working.


Regards - Kahala777
 
loyal2UA
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 2:43 pm

RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 3:20 pm

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 38):
No, but you need to take into consideration that airlines like B6/HP/US are not going through the kind of identity crisis that United Airlines is.

This is a pretty bold statement Kahala. Most people would say that a corporation that is trying to offer different products that fit different customers, as being pro-active in the outlook of the future. United is attracting a low-fare customer with TED, attracting mainline and uax pax with their developed domestic routes, and most profitably, UA is attracting int'l pax with worldwide service.

Now,

how does offering these different products make UA an identity crisis case?

Furthermore, explain exactly how United is trying to be everything to everyone and not working. Is it not working for everyone, or just a few?

It seems to me that UA is trying to be everything to its different passenger groups, and trying damn hard. Think you may need to give UA a break man.
 
baw716
Posts: 1463
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:02 pm

RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 3:53 pm

OK guys, its time to calm down.

This thread is getting away from the subject and turning into a punching match.

My two cents.
We all agree UA management are a bunch of [email protected]#[email protected]#*&^&!* !!!!

Having said that, lets be rational for a moment...
1. The judge is going to kick the strike. He has ruled with management on most every issue. Disturbing but true. In this instance, we need him to rule with management to keep the airline running.

2. The IAM guys need to get a reality check. Striking is not the answer. I have said this again and again. All it is going to do is eventually piss off management to the point of deciding to take the BK into Chapter 7 to save their golden parachutes. Remember, UA management doesn't care about the employees. They have demomstrated that. They are all about preserving assets and cash and making sure that they are able to keep things afloat so they can figure out how best to assure their exit strategy, be it to sell UA outright or go Ch 7.

3. With #2 said, I have said repeatedly on a.net that I am working on a business plan to put forward for the judge. It is about 1/2 finished. I need time to complete it, then I am going to move on getting it in front of the creditor committee. If I can get the creditor committee to support the plan and the unions to support the plan, then I would be willing to bet money that with the creditors and the unions, it might be possible to stage a coup d'etat at United by introducing an outside reorganization plan, but with the support of the creditors and of the unions, it would be hard for the judge to refuse it. There is more research that has to be done, but let me say this with as much clarity as I can:

UNITED MUST BE SAVED.

Why am I doing this? Two reasons: 1) I need the challenge.
2) You guys need something to hope for. Right now, you have nothing to hope for. I would like to at least give you that.

For now, all I ask is that you stop the strike, stop attacking management directly....because it isnt going to work. You have to hit them where they won't expect it and where they will feel it most. From behind and between their legs.

Give yourselves some hope, because I believe there is hope. We just have to believe, then work like you never have before to achieve the dream.

More later....

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
bigb
Posts: 1128
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 4:10 pm

Quoting Loyal2UA (Reply 39):
Most people would say that a corporation that is trying to offer different products that fit different customers, as being pro-active in the outlook of the future. United is attracting a low-fare customer with TED, attracting mainline and uax pax with their developed domestic routes, and most profitably, UA is attracting int'l pax with worldwide service.

Ok, I must say this. UA could do all of that without 3 different products. Lets take examples here. Look at, HP, CO, AA.

HP made a profit last Quarter.
CO is losing money, but not a shit load of it.
AA losses have been decreasing slowly.

Neither one of them offers as many different products that UA offers. What I'm trying to say is streamline your product to appeal to all your customers, not just a seperate product for each different customer. Lets break CO product list down.

Business/First - appeals to high yield customers.
Y Product- appeals to all customers.

There is no need to put all Y seats in a aircraft to complete for low yield customers only, cause you leave the high yield customers hanging. No need to config a aircraft for only High yield customers (Transcon Premium services w/e its called) cause you leave your low yield cutomers hanging.

UA needs a product that appeals to all the customers from int. flts to domestic flights.
 
hiflyer
Posts: 1274
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:38 am

RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 6:32 pm

You all need to notice that no other union on or off the property has made a public announcement that their members will honor another union picket line. There has been words of support...but that is all. Take the hint. Just like the rest of the unions climbed over the SEA rampers at Alaska to sign their own deals.
 
avek00
Posts: 3253
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 8:00 pm

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 40):
2. The IAM guys need to get a reality check. Striking is not the answer.

You're not telling the IAM anything it doesn't already know - the union DOES NOT want to strike, but would have to consider doing so if is members are forced to work under any set of arbitrary rules that United sees fit to impose.

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 40):
1. The judge is going to kick the strike. He has ruled with management on most every issue.

He has also ruled AGAINST United - remember the agreement with ALPA that got tossed...
Live life to the fullest.
 
Bicoastal
Posts: 2446
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 5:56 am

RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 9:09 pm

Has the Union asked its membership if they want a Union pension plan (union position) or would they prefer their own 401(k) plan (management position)? My United ramper neighbor says none of his colleagues support the IAM position. They say if that's the agreement, they'll vote against it. They trust their greedy union as much as they trust management. They're smart enough to safely invest their money in their own 401(k) but the IAM goons think their membership is too stupid to do so.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
laca773
Posts: 2081
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:10 am

RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 10:25 pm

In my opinion the reality of all of this is to keep UA in the air, so they can become successful/profitable again, the employees are going to have to give in, simple as that. With the industry in utter chaos, and the economy not doing well as usual, you have to look at the long term. If a strike occurs, I don't see UA staying in business. It will have dire consequences especially at this time of the year. I also wouldn't be surprised if UA is in talks with a/c maintance contractors and rampers to come in and take over like what happened at AS. This is serious business and the unions need to wake up and smell the Starbucks coffee served on board, or they will all be out of jobs.
 
simes
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 11:04 pm

RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 10:29 pm

BAW716,

It seems with this situation, it's at the point where striking is the last option available, I'm not sure about US laws in this regard, but can the union issue work bans or other actions that inconvience management? Hurt the cash flow for a while?
Go slow?

If they can't do anything like that, then it would seem striking is the only option they have. It'd hit the employees before it hits management...

Bicoastal,

There'd be little point in a union putting up a position that a vast majority didn't like....
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 10:36 pm

United Airlines has dodged more than a few potentially fatal blows over the last several years. It would be horrible shame if a strike ends up killing United after having made it this far.
 
Kahala777
Posts: 1513
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:28 am

RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 11:19 pm

Quoting Loyal2UA (Reply 39):
how does offering these different products make UA an identity crisis case?

United Airlines, up until a few years ago could have touted itself as a full service airline. Now the airline in effect, appears to be a mixture of so many things. Not only to its employees, but the flying public. For example A passenger flying from Singapore to Las Vegas in First Class now has to fly via Hong Kong or Tokyo to San Francisco, and then transfer to an all Economy product from San Francisco to Las Vegas on TED. In turn the passenger that wishes to go from Singapore to Las Vegas with a Premium product, would opt for the entire journey to be on an airline that can offer Premium Service such as Japan Airlines.

Quoting Loyal2UA (Reply 39):
explain exactly how United is trying to be everything to everyone and not working. Is it not working for everyone, or just a few?

TED : A attempt at trying to offer Low Fare service in Low Yield markets that United Airlines is competing head to head with airlines like Jet Blue, America West, and Southwest. The main problem with the TED model is that most of United Airlines Mileage Plus members cannot use miles to upgrade on this flights. In addition TED, is an all economy class product where as fellow airlines American, Delta, Continental, and Northwest can still offer a Premium Cabin to these low yield markets.

United Airlines Domestic: The domestic route structure over recent years has shrunk in favor of the likes of TED, and United Express. To begin with many passengers are not keen on the idea of a jungle jet for an hour, let alone up to 3. Passengers that once flew mainline to destinations such as Las Vegas, are now forced into flying TED, an all economy class product. In addition United Airlines, has nearly given the Intra-California market to Southwest Airlines. United Airlines, lost a huge client base in California with the reduction of Shuttle by United. On example is the SMF-ONT segment which when UAL dropped its 6 daily SMF-LAX Shuttle by United segments, Southwest jumped from 7 segments SMF-ONT to 12!

United Airlines Trans Con(PS): The idea of Premium Service is great. The premise and the base for Premium Service is horrible. United Airlines decided to dump millions of dollars into the Premium Service program, which has yet to win any awards or lure any passengers away from the likes of American Airlines, or Continental Airlines in the NYC-SFO, LAX markets. In addition Premium Service is based on a smaller narrowbody, where as United Airlines before was offering spacious and comfortable 767 widebody aircraft. Also, you need to take into effect that when UAL started PS, American Airlines upped its Trans Con flying and added more than enough seats to take on United Airlines passengers that still wanted the widebody Trans Con service. Now, you also have Song entering the market with 7 daily flights from JFK-LAX.

United Airlines International: United Airlines, has always suffered from one thing after another in the international market. For years United Airlines has been rotating the name of its Business Class product. For years United Airlines has been initiating and dropping service at the drop of a hat. United Airlines in several cases did not think out the route, or the end result of a route before it was started as were the reults with the idiotic cases of JFK-HKG, ORD-DEL. United Airlines nearly gave away its Delhi service to British Airways and Cathay Pacific. Miami, was one thing that United Airlines never focused on and in the end failed with, and sent its traffic to American Airlines.


Quoting Loyal2UA (Reply 39):
United is attracting a low-fare customer with TED, attracting mainline and uax pax with their developed domestic routes, and most profitably, UA is attracting int'l pax with worldwide service.

United Airlines no longer offers Worldwide Service. Dont you remember that Worldwide Service was what United Airlines touted its DEL-LHR, DEL-HKG flights?


Regards - Kahala777
 
IADBGO
Posts: 202
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:19 am

RE: The Next 24 Hours At UAL

Tue May 31, 2005 11:39 pm

Litterally just saw this waking out of the office but CNN is reporting that a deal has been reached with UA and the union

IADBGO

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