AirT85
Topic Author
Posts: 1241
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 1999 12:36 am

Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:20 am

Hi All:

I have a very simple question to ask pertaining to the regulations airlines must follow before an aircraft can depart.

Once I have a for-sure answer, I will post more details about the incident that caused me to ask the question.

My question is: Is their a federal regulations requiring airlines to perform the safety-briefing BEFORE an airliner takes off?

-Tony
Why would God make us all so different, if He wanted us to be the same?
 
flypdx
Posts: 603
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:19 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:23 am

I believe so...In the event of an emergency on take off, passengers would need to know the safety info..
 
Ralgha
Posts: 1589
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 1999 6:20 pm

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:25 am

Yes, it is required by §121.571, which spells out exactly what must be included in the briefing.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
 
Brido
Posts: 154
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2000 5:32 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:26 am

Quoting AirT85 (Thread starter):
My question is: Is their a federal regulations requiring airlines to perform the safety-briefing BEFORE an airliner takes off?

Without a doubt, yes.
 
xjramper
Posts: 2318
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:10 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:27 am

Sometimes there isnt enough time for a flight attendant to complete all things necessary of the saftey demo. Give you a good example, TOL's runway 16 is about 100 feet from the terminal. That truly isnt enough time to run through all of the lecture. What did happen?

XJR
Look ma' no hands!
 
aa777flyer
Posts: 1017
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2001 8:45 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:29 am

Yes, the safety demo MUST be performed.
The TSA was created to make the post office look efficient!
 
744rules
Posts: 391
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2002 3:34 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:30 am

On SAS cabin doors cannot be closed before safety briefing has been done. They will even make a delay for it.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 30067
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:33 am

Quoting AirT85 (Thread starter):
My question is: Is their a federal regulations requiring airlines to perform the safety-briefing BEFORE an airliner takes off?

Out here.
Its Mandatory.No Doubt.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
legacy135
Posts: 966
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 11:06 pm

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:34 am

Absolutely, otherwise they cannot even assume that you will find your way out if for example the nosegear collapses during taxi and the aircraft must be evacuated. For sure, it might come even worse than a nosegear collapse and nobody knows what to do.
 
AirT85
Topic Author
Posts: 1241
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 1999 12:36 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:34 am

This is what happened yesterday. I have written a letter to the airline involved and am debating whether or not to send it. There is more that happened on this trip that disturbed besides what relates to this question.

I was flying from Phoenix to Philadelphia yesterday on Southwest Airlines. The inbound aircraft arrived NINE minutes prior to scheduled departure time. The fact it was late didn't upset me. What upset me was the fact that there was NEVER ONE announcement made about our flight. The gate agents did not say a word to us after the previous flight left the gate. No greeting. No hello. And definitely NO update on the fact our flight would be delayed. We had to figure this out ourselves by the fact no aircraft was sitting at our gate.

ANYWAY. We got onboard the aircraft and pushed back over a half hour late. We were at gate C-8 which put us almost directly at the end of the departure runway. I knew their would be little time to do the demo and if they didn't start right away they wouldn't finish. The two flight attendants were standing in the aisle for several minutes waiting to start the demo. It never started. We began taxiing with the f/a's still in the aisles.

As we neared the runway the lead f/a came over the PA and told us we'd been cleared for take-off. We turned onto the runway as the two flight attendants scrambled down the aisle to get seated. I am not lying to you when I tell you the flight attendant posted at the mid-cabin was not seated as we were rolling down the runway. She got seated before we became airborne. The lead flight attendant told us over the PA during the take-off roll that the safety demo would be given in the air.

It was given at 10,000 feet. But before that, the f/a's made NO announcements over the PA. Not even a "Welcome aboard flight 849 with service to Philadelphia" announcement. The only announcement made was before we pushed back when they told talked about their open seating policy, etc. Not one bit of safety information was given until we were at 10,000 feet.

The entire trip was a total drop-of-the-ball on Southwest's part. The customer service was terrible and I walked away very dissapointed in them and feeling like us passengers had been taken for granted both by the ground crew in PHX and the flight crew on flight 849. What kind of pilot begins taking off with flight attendants standing in the aisles?

If you would like a copy of the letter I have written (which goes into more exact detail) email me at [email protected]

I promise you I am not making any of this up. I've been flying every month since I was a year old. I grew up in the airline industry. I have never seen this before and it honestly disturbed me.

-Tony
Why would God make us all so different, if He wanted us to be the same?
 
TGBoi
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:17 pm

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:36 am

Yes, safety demo must be shown before take-offs. I have heard and experienced incidents when the capt. will delay take-offs in order to provide for enough time to the safety demo.

BRGDS
TGBoi
 
TUNisia
Posts: 1515
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:24 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:36 am

I was on an AA flight from DFW-SJC (MD80) a few years back and the safety demo was given. We had a pretty rough flight about an hour before landing in SJC and I remember all the lights in the cabin being turned on as it was dark outside. Then the FAs came down the aisle and were showing us how to use life-vests. They said it was because they forgot to telll us how to use them in DFW. For some reason most of the passengers weren't buying that excuse. Before we landed at night (after out flight had been delayed for a few hours) we kept circling around.
Someday the sun will shine down on me in some faraway place - Mahalia Jackson
 
B757capt
Posts: 1401
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:11 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:40 am

Tony- How many people boarded that aircraft that had NOT flown on another southwest aircraft that day. PHX is big connection city most of teh passengers were probably connecting.
The views written by this user are in no manner the views of my employer and should not be thought as such.
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7858
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:42 am

As has been said, Yes it is required....and the aircraft can't take off until it has been completed...short taxi time or not. A long time friend of mine that is an Auditor for another airline has flown Southwest and has often questioned their safety briefings. The FAA requires certain things be said regarding the safety of the passengers. Southwest in the 'have fun' attitude has sometimes missed or not even said the proper briefing according to my friend on the flights he has been on.

..and you actually have TWO clear violations. One, the missed Safety Breifing... Two.. EVEYONE is required to be seated and belted before pulling onto the active runway.

You should send a copy to the FAA as well. I'm sure they would want to know...!!

[Edited 2005-06-05 18:51:45]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
AirT85
Topic Author
Posts: 1241
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 1999 12:36 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:43 am

I'm sure that a lot of passengers connected in Phoenix. I'm also sure a lot of them had flown before.

But why did the captain disregard the fact his cabin crew was:

a) Still standing in the aisle

and

b) Had no idea if the cabin was secure for take-off? Did everyone have their seatbelt fastened? Were all carry-on items stowed? Were electronic devices turned off?

His cabin crew did not get a chance to check and make sure all of the above were true. I know for a fact the gentleman across the aisle from me was watching a movie on his DVD player from the moment he sat down in his seat. Including during taxi and take-off.

Maybe I am making a big deal about it, but it truly looks to me like all professionalism and regard for safety was thrown out the window on my flight yesterday.

And to top it off, the flight attendant welcomed us to Pittsburgh when we landed. LOL honest mistake, but the flight couldn't have ended better!

-Tony
Why would God make us all so different, if He wanted us to be the same?
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 30067
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:45 am

Quoting B757capt (Reply 12):
Tony- How many people boarded that aircraft that had NOT flown on another southwest aircraft that day. PHX is big connection city most of teh passengers were probably connecting.

I think the appropriate action by the Pilot was to Delay the T/O under the Safety drill was completed.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
rampkontroler
Posts: 696
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 1:54 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:29 am

This really sounds like Southwest was in a real hurry to catch up on some lost time. Yeah, that's not right....you definately should have been given a safety briefing prior to departure. It doesn't matter as to whether you are a connecting passenger or an originator, it should always be done.

Quoting TUNisia (Reply 11):
I was on an AA flight from DFW-SJC (MD80) a few years back and the safety demo was given. We had a pretty rough flight about an hour before landing in SJC and I remember all the lights in the cabin being turned on as it was dark outside. Then the FAs came down the aisle and were showing us how to use life-vests. They said it was because they forgot to telll us how to use them in DFW. For some reason most of the passengers weren't buying that excuse. Before we landed at night (after out flight had been delayed for a few hours) we kept circling around.

That's interesting....DFW to SJC doesn't require any extensive overwater operations, thus making the life vest demo not a requirement. They ARE required to tell you where they are, but unless you are crossing large bodies of water I don't believe it is required to demonstrate the use of the vests. I may be wrong...correct me if I am!
 
Ralgha
Posts: 1589
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 1999 6:20 pm

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:30 am

Quoting B757capt (Reply 12):
Tony- How many people boarded that aircraft that had NOT flown on another southwest aircraft that day. PHX is big connection city most of teh passengers were probably connecting.

The law makes no exceptions for that.

If things transpired as you said they did (I'm not doubting it), then there were multiple violations made by the flight crew. The takeoff must be delayed until the safety briefing is complete, and the takeoff can not commence until everyone (FAs included) is seated with a seatbelt in use.

Quite a disregared they had for the rules on that flight. It's not like they were minor infractions either, big safety issues in my opinion.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:46 am

Quoting Aa777flyer (Reply 5):
Yes, the safety demo MUST be performed.

I thought if the Captain felt that his passengers were familiar with the safety information, it did not need to be performed. Also, I know for a fact the oxygen demonstration doesn't need to be performed until a certain altitude, IIRC, 25,000 feet (doesn't really make sense since the cabin needs pressurization after 10k).

Quoting AirT85 (Reply 14):
a) Still standing in the aisle

Until? Flight attendants are allowed to be standing, AFAIK, during taxi while performing safety related duties.

AAndrew
 
User avatar
aloha73g
Posts: 1942
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 6:30 pm

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:54 am

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 18):
I thought if the Captain felt that his passengers were familiar with the safety information, it did not need to be performed. Also, I know for a fact the oxygen demonstration doesn't need to be performed until a certain altitude, IIRC, 25,000 feet (doesn't really make sense since the cabin needs pressurization after 10k).

This seems correct. I have noticed that on interisland flights, AQ only does the oxygen mask demo on HNL-ITO flights. They probably don't go 'high enough' on the other inter-island flights due to their short duration.

Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
Ralgha
Posts: 1589
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 1999 6:20 pm

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:02 am

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 18):
I thought if the Captain felt that his passengers were familiar with the safety information, it did not need to be performed.

The law does not allow for it. Anyway, even if it did allow it, how do you think the Captain could determine that every passenger on a 737 was familiar with it?

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 18):
Also, I know for a fact the oxygen demonstration doesn't need to be performed until a certain altitude, IIRC, 25,000 feet (doesn't really make sense since the cabin needs pressurization after 10k).

It's 12,000 MSL, and the cabin doesn't NEED pressurization ever, but if it wasn't pressurized then you'd have to comply with all those pesky supplemental oxygen requirements among other things, and the passengers would probably be less than happy about it.

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 18):
Until? Flight attendants are allowed to be standing, AFAIK, during taxi while performing safety related duties

But not during takeoff, which is apparently what happened here.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:06 am

Very strange - safety demonstrations are required before takeoff and it must be done for each departure - issues such as passengers being familiar with the aircraft or procedures or passengers probably heard the demo on an earlier flight that day are all not acceptable excuses. That your flight was running late and Southwest was looking to make up some time and the captain saw an opportunity to take off very quickly is no excuse for skipping the demo or beginning the takeoff roll with F/A's still in the aisle. Not only could the F/A have been injured, she could have fallen into seated pax causing them injury as well.

That the F/As and gate agents were not very friendly or welcoming results from the lack of time, Southwest was obviously doing everything that it could to get your plane into the air as quickly as possible and make up for the delay. The low standard of hospitality is simply bad business, but not illegal of course. Most airlines usually make announcements to ensure that pax have boarded the correct flight, with the delay and confusion at the gate, one would think that Southwest would want to double check that everyone onbroard your flight belonged there.

This is a good example of one of the negatives of the LCC business model - Southwest must keep its aircraft in the air, ground times are kept to an absolute minimum, and delays are problematic so the airline does whatever it can to get a delayed aircraft back on schedule. The result from this pressure is that both ground and inflight crews work too fast and many details are overlooked. I would let Southwest know what happened - there are acceptable and unacceptable ways to make up for lost time - I think that your crew may have crossed the line with your flight.
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
Posts: 1469
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2000 8:18 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:06 am

Tony,

I encourage you to report that as it is gross negligence on WN's part not to mention poor customer service.
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7858
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:09 am

I thought if the Captain felt that his passengers were familiar with the safety information, it did not need to be performed.

You thought wrong... No assumptions can be made and everytime the following MUST be performed BEFORE take off.... If an FAA Official had been on-board this airline would be in a heap of trouble....and stil may be.

§ 121.571 Briefing passengers before takeoff.
top
(a) Each certificate holder operating a passenger-carrying airplane shall insure that all passengers are orally briefed by the appropriate crewmember as follows:

(1) Before each takeoff, on each of the following:

(i) Smoking. Each passenger shall be briefed on when, where, and under what conditions smoking is prohibited including, but not limited to, any applicable requirements of part 252 of this title). This briefing shall include a statement that the Federal Aviation Regulations require passenger compliance with the lighted passenger information signs, posted placards, areas designated for safety purposes as no smoking areas, and crewmember instructions with regard to these items. The briefing shall also include a statement that Federal law prohibits tampering with, disabling, or destroying any smoke detector in an airplane lavatory; smoking in lavatories; and, when applicable, smoking in passenger compartments.

(ii) The location of emergency exits.

(iii) The use of safety belts, including instructions on how to fasten and unfasten the safety belts. Each passenger shall be briefed on when, where, and under what conditions the safety belt must be fastened about that passenger. This briefing shall include a statement that the Federal Aviation Regulations require passenger compliance with lighted passenger information signs and crewmember instructions concerning the use of safety belts.

(iv) The location and use of any required emergency flotation means.

(v) On operations that do not use a flight attendant, the following additional information:

(A) The placement of seat backs in an upright position before takeoff and landing.

(B) Location of survival equipment.

(C) If the flight involves operations above 12,000 MSL, the normal and emergency use of oxygen.

(D) Location and operation of fire extinguisher.

(2) After each takeoff, immediately before or immediately after turning the seat belt sign off, an announcement shall be made that passengers should keep their seat belts fastened, while seated, even when the seat belt sign is off.

(3) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(4) of this section, before each takeoff a required crewmember assigned to the flight shall conduct an individual briefing of each person who may need the assistance of another person to move expeditiously to an exit in the event of an emergency. In the briefing the required crewmember shall—

(i) Brief the person and his attendant, if any, on the routes to each appropriate exit and on the most appropriate time to begin moving to an exit in the event of an emergency; and

(ii) Inquire of the person and his attendant, if any, as to the most appropriate manner of assisting the person so as to prevent pain and further injury.

(4) The requirements of paragraph (a)(3) of this section do not apply to a person who has been given a briefing before a previous leg of a flight in the same aircraft when the crewmembers on duty have been advised as to the most appropriate manner of assisting the person so as to prevent pain and further injury.

(b) Each certificate holder must carry on each passenger-carrying airplane, in convenient locations for use of each passenger, printed cards supplementing the oral briefing. Each card must contain information pertinent only to the type and model of airplane used for that flight, including—

(1) Diagrams of, and methods of operating, the emergency exits;

(2) Other instructions necessary for use of emergency equipment; and

(3) No later than June 12, 2005, for Domestic and Flag scheduled passenger-carrying flights, the sentence, “Final assembly of this airplane was completed in [INSERT NAME OF COUNTRY].”

(c) The certificate holder shall describe in its manual the procedure to be followed in the briefing required by paragraph (a) of this section.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15061
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:11 am

WN depends on the tight connections and they did everything they could to get that plane into the front of the line to get back on schedule, safety be damned.

That's what LCC is all about. 30 minute turn arounds are more important than anything else.

Glad nothing happened where you needed the information, sad to see WN cutting corners to pick up 2 minutes...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:17 am

>>>sad to see WN cutting corners to pick up 2 minutes...

You're statement implies that it was an intentional act, versus a a possible oversight. Why not wait until the company has been notified and circumstances can be investigated before making these kinds of "conclusions"?

[Edited 2005-06-05 20:18:24]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7858
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:24 am

The only allowance in FAR 121.571.a.3... In basic English, the Flight attendant is not required to re-brief a passenger seated in an exit row 'IF' that passenger is continuing on the leg of a flight that they are seated in an exit row and may be called on to perform duties as instructed by the crew..etc..etc...etc
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
zotan
Posts: 582
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:42 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:25 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 24):
That's what LCC is all about. 30 minute turn arounds are more important than anything else.

Im not exactly sure what happened on his flight, but I doubt it was that. Do you honestly believe that they value their turn around times more than passenger safety?
 
Jan Mogren
Posts: 2014
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2000 2:47 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:30 am

If the cabin crew gave the cockpit "cabin clear" then how is the Captain to know they goofed back there?

/JM
AeroPresentation - Airline DVD's filmed in High Definition
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
Posts: 1469
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2000 8:18 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:33 am

Quoting ZOTAN (Reply 27):
Do you honestly believe that they value their turn around times more than passenger safety?

In this instance, yes. I'm sure it was an oversight but it was a BIG oversight and a serious violation. If they were not in such a rush, this incident would not have happened.
 
FlyingTexan
Posts: 2998
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2003 8:30 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:33 am

Geez, the notion that SWA intentionally broke safety regulations to make up time is a.net at a new low.

[Edited 2005-06-05 20:34:30]
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
SQ25J
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 3:26 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:50 am

This thread reminds me of an instance when I asked a FA to perform an "Infant count" prior to departure-she smiled at me and said, "we can do it after takeoff", I said, "no we cannot" and proceeded to do it myself.
 
atrude777
Posts: 4359
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:56 am

I am a huge Southwest fan yet I am not biased, if something happened the way it did on your southwest flight, I would report. I don't care if Southwest is my favorite airline period, safety comes to me first far most then anything. As you said you did, give details as flight number, plane, airline, etc etc, and be as DETAILED as possible, and if you are unsure of a minute in this episode of time, STATE it, do not make something up, honestly say "I am quite unsure, but from what I understand..". Safety comes first.

This happened to me on a AA Flight. We were taxing, and the safety briefing was still not done. The lead F/A was running like hell all over the plane trying to gather the stuff. she has now announced the seatbelts and such, and then we started the take off roll, and the F/A is running BACK to the plane to grab the mask, and then she RAN back to the front to finish the vest and safety cards. Then she ran back and sat down just as we lifted off. I was SHOCKED! So it happened on AA too.
Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
jkudall
Posts: 389
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:21 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:57 am

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 18):
I thought if the Captain felt that his passengers were familiar with the safety information, it did not need to be performed

Under FAR part 91, that might be true. But WN operates under part 121, which is much more strict. Besides, how would a captain of an aircraft with over 100 people on board know if they were familiar with the safety information?

WN definately dropped the ball on this one. I have never heard of an airline doing this before. That is a huge violation. If an emergency were to happen aboard an aircraft, it is likely to occur during the takeoff or landing phases of the flight. What good would the safety demonstration be after takeoff?

I'm sure it was a mistake. I would be even more shocked than I already am if this was something intentional. Either it was overlooked in their rush, or the communication between cabin and cockpit crews failed somehow. Still, there is no excuse for this. Safety should be the number one priority of all airlines.

By all means, write to the airline and the FAA.
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:11 am

I remember being on a few SR flights were the did the O2 demo after take off.

I always thought this was odd.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1683
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:12 am

Definetely copy in the FAA on this. This is a pretty serious violation of FAA regulation. Not to mention, this pilot had no regard for his crew by taking off without making sure they were secure first.
 
ua777222
Posts: 2987
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:23 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:48 am

Quoting B757capt (Reply 12):
Tony- How many people boarded that aircraft that had NOT flown on another southwest aircraft that day. PHX is big connection city most of teh passengers were probably connecting.



Quoting AirT85 (Reply 14):
I'm sure that a lot of passengers connected in Phoenix. I'm also sure a lot of them had flown before.

As most have stated above this is no excues to deny the passengers be it FF's or first time flyers the safety info that is needed to operate the flight.

What I don't get is why wouldn't an FA want to give the safety drill? It makes their job a whole lot easier. Even those that do listen to the drill are in panic when an emergency occurs so I don't think an uninformed bunch of passengers is a good idea whatsoever.

I flew WN last month and to tell you the truth I wasn't paying much attention to the crew and their announcements for I have flown too many times to not know where to look for the exit door, how to put on an o2 mask, etc. But they were very brief and unlike the big boys did not stand up with the buckle and mask etc. show that we all look forward to seeing/hearing/ignoring when we fly.

I flew an AA flight (ATR 72) out of SJU last year at night. One FA, 2 pilots 15min wheels up to wheels down. She said something that was blurred out by the props but I sure would have liked to have known knowing that we were going to be flying into a very very small airport in a very very small aircraft at about 1am in shit weather.

I guess they gotta get that on time departure. I have, however, flown on a few flights with Untied that have pushed on time but have gone into the box to finish flight briefings which, in my opinion, would still give them their on time departure while still providing the proper information to fly.

Thanks,

Matt
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
Ralgha
Posts: 1589
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 1999 6:20 pm

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:40 am

Quoting UA777222 (Reply 36):
very very small airport in a very very small aircraft at about

If an ATR 72 is a "very very small aircraft", then what would you call a Piper Cub?

And if an airport that can be used by an ATR 72 is a "very very small airport", then what would you call an airport with a 30 foot wide, 1700 foot long runway with trees on both ends necessitating following the river between the hills to a very short final and random pieces of driftwood on it?

Just curious.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
 
Ralgha
Posts: 1589
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 1999 6:20 pm

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:44 am

Quoting UA777222 (Reply 36):
I wasn't paying much attention to the crew and their announcements for I have flown too many times to not know where to look for the exit door, how to put on an o2 mask, etc.

It's polite to lend your attention to the FA even if you already know the drill. Have you ever spoken to a group of people where not a single one of them was paying attention to you? Not much fun I can tell you.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
 
Leezyjet
Posts: 3544
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:26 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:52 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 23):
(3) No later than June 12, 2005, for Domestic and Flag scheduled passenger-carrying flights, the sentence, “Final assembly of this airplane was completed in [INSERT NAME OF COUNTRY].”

Why does this announcement have to be made from 12/06/2005 ?. What difference does it make to the a/c safety where it was manufactured ?.  confused 

Is it just a ploy so that when pax are on an Airbus, and they are told final assembly was in France/Germany that people might not want to fly on them any more and would eventually force the airlines to buy Boeing a/c so they could say that it is made in the good ol' us of a ???

 crazy 

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
TrappedinMKG
Posts: 232
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:11 pm

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:55 am

Leezyjet-

Yes, that's EXACTLY the implication. Their goal is that when customers hear "The final assembly of this aircraft was completed in Brazil.", they'll freak out and write nasty letters to Embraer operators demanding that they buy American aircraft...not that that's possible if you're buying RJs.
 
nwcoflyer
Posts: 682
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2003 7:55 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:56 am

A couple weeks back on one of my flights from ATL to IAH on CO, the flight attendants didn't do the safety demo. No big deal, though it is illegal. I doub't anybody would have paid real close attention. I did think it was a bit strange though.
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
Posts: 1469
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2000 8:18 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:00 am

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 39):
Why does this announcement have to be made from 12/06/2005 ?. What difference does it make to the a/c safety where it was manufactured ?.

It's not a mandatory announcement. If you read carefully, it says this phrase must be printed on the safety information card.
 
NWADC9
Posts: 3954
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 12:33 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:42 am

Sounds like a case of "Get-home-itis". That is BAD BAD BAD for any pilot, and can, and did, end up in tragedy, like NW225. Also, I think that the captian is at fault at all times, because he/she is in charge of everything onboard the aircraft.
I get paid to convert dead dino juice into noise.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15061
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:45 am

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 30):
Geez, the notion that SWA intentionally broke safety regulations to make up time is a.net at a new low.

You may not think it is intentional, but I think it was. It is a structural flaw in the WN priorities. in other words, the primary concern at WN is 30 minute turn arounds. That is clear, from the management, from their business model, from interviews where the leadership mocks other airlines for taking longer, etc. Also, they don't "pad" their schedules as much as other airlines do, either. They make their money by keeping their planes in the air as much as possible. It's a good business model, too.

The drawback of this kind of scheduling is that unless they get back on schedule, the delay in one place has more impact on the next destination than say at CO, where turn arounds average closer to an hour. A late departure like this at CO often only leads to a 15 minute arrival delay and then the next segment this plane flies may be on schedule by landing. This can't happen at WN with as much ease.

Therefor, the procedures for getting a plane back on schedule are more urgent at WN. From the description, the flight attendants were ready to do the briefing, but had to rush to their seats because the pilots and ground control had them taking off. The priority was obviously to get the plane in the air, and somewhere a decision was made to take that window and not to wait.

Please explain to me where the concern for the fact they hadn't done the little song and dance about safety can be found in this chain of events in relation to pilots or WN management. It was obvious the F/As wanted to do it, but somewhere along the line someone said "we'll have to do it in the air" or something to that effect. Otherwise, this can't happen, because it sure didn't sound like the F/As "forgot" as some people want to claim.

When your company mantra is fast turn arounds, your focus will naturally fall on that before all else. That means keeping the planes in top condition, and getting people on and off quickly, and getting back in the air as soon as possible. It is not as if they were skimping on MX or anything that would endanger the airline. They only cut a procedural corner that in the vast majority of cases doesn't really concern any pax. But it is still a regulation.

Assuming that the account is accurate, someone made the choice to take off rather than brief the passengers. From the description of events and the concern of the passenger, this was obviously NOT a sin of ommision. It was a choice.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
SonOfACaptain
Posts: 1695
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 5:36 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:13 am

If I were you, I would report it to both the airline and the FAA, and this goes with all airlines. There is no excuse for these kinds of acts. Even if you guys think it doesn't matter, that everybody has heard the demo anyway, IT DOESN'T MATTER! The fact is, they broke the rules. And just think, if they broke the rule on something so simple and something so public, just think what they may being doing behind close doors. (Not applying anything here)

No matter all many times you hear the demo, there is always somebody who hasn't or who has never paid attention. An example, less than a year ago, my dad was flying DFW-PHL on a 733 when the cabin depressurized. After he put on his mask, he realized that the lady in the row ahead didn't have her mask on and was kind of in a state of shock. He had to get out of his seat and lean over to put her mask on, then go back to his seat. So no matter what, the demo is always needed for someone.

You're statement implies that it was an intentional act, versus a a possible oversight.

Geez, the notion that SWA intentionally broke safety regulations to make up time is a.net at a new low.

Please, you can't overlook something this big and routine. The F/A's were even in the aisle waiting to the demo. It was their responsibilty to contact the flight deck to delay the take off, and the pilot's responsibilty to do such a thing. Pilot's are always told that they must take off AFTER the demo is done. Plain and simple.

-SOAC
Non Illegitimi Carborundum
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:18 am

>>>From the description of events and the concern of the passenger, this was obviously NOT a sin of ommision. It was a choice.

Since you seem to be so all-knowing and all-seeing and otherwise all-omnipotent, could you please provide me with the winning numbers of next Wednesday's Texas Lottery? Thanks!
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8886
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:27 am

I'm sorry you had a bad customer service experience. Regarding the safety demonstration, let's not make a mountain out of a mole-hill. A few things to remember:
1) very few passengers pay attention,
2) even on a LCC like WN, well over 90% have flown before,
3) well over 80% have flown many, many times,
4) in an evacuation, about half the pax will have a clue, and
5) the clueless half will follow the others.
Is it sensible to do the safety demo on the ground if there's time? Of course it is. Is it worth delaying a flight? Not in my opinion.
 
PHXinterrupted
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 6:41 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:30 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 21):
This is a good example of one of the negatives of the LCC business model - Southwest must keep its aircraft in the air, ground times are kept to an absolute minimum, and delays are problematic so the airline does whatever it can to get a delayed aircraft back on schedule. The result from this pressure is that both ground and inflight crews work too fast and many details are overlooked.

This can potentially happen with any carrier, not just LCCs.
Keepin' it real.
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
Posts: 1469
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2000 8:18 am

RE: Did My Airline Break The Law?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:34 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 47):
Regarding the safety demonstration, let's not make a mountain out of a mole-hill.

Unfortunately, the aviation industry has suffered many, many disasters because someone failed to follow procedures even in small things. The importance of safety should never be minimized or taken for granted.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos