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767-300ER
Topic Author
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CO IAH-GRU

Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:30 pm

There has been a lot of discussion regarding the IAH-GRU-GIG flight. My question is, does anyone have any figures or numbers regarding this flight. How profitable it is for CO. Do more actually end in Rio or Sao Paulo? Also why do they offer the flight to Sao Paulo non stop if everyone is claiming that Rio has most of the pax? I am sure you will say b/c Sao Paulo has connecting traffic, but if 65% of the flight allegedly goes to Rio, then conservatively lets say 25% goes to GRU, then 10 percent goes elsewhere in Brazil or South America. Why would they make the flight non stop to GRU is overwhelmingly this flight is OD Houston-Rio? I am also wondering how the flight does money wise, and how loads are for CO 93. If this flight remains a money maker, could we EVER see CO apply for twice daily service or at least an IAH-GIG non stop 3-4 x per week? Also how does CO do in comparisson to AA DFW-GRU? i Just hope CO can keep those 764s full and keep this wonderful non stop IAH-GRU flight operating for many years to come.

Thanks for all responses.
 
MAH4546
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:36 pm

Most of the traffic goes to Sao Paulo, not Rio de Janeiro. I know this will be disputed, but I have seen traffic figures for this route. And unless something has drastically changed in the past year, this is still the case.
a.
 
commavia
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:49 pm

Quoting 767-300ER (Thread starter):
Also how does CO do in comparisson to AA DFW-GRU?

It depends on how you look at it. On a sheer volume of traffic basis, AA's 12 weekly flights flights during the summer obviously carry more passengers than CO's 7. However, on a yield basis, CO almost certainly outperforms AA on this specific market comparison (IAH-GRU vs. DFW-GRU) because AA's second flight diluted the loads and yields of both. IMO, AA's second DFW-GRU flight probably won't return again next year, even if it is in the schedules now. While the flight was originally designed for cargo -- which AA hauls like no other on South America runs -- the dilution of passenger performance may be too much for AA to take. I think AA may find a more productive use of the 5 weekly frequencies for next summer and turn a single DFW-GRU flight back into a cash cow.
 
diesel33
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:53 pm

Both flights from EWR and IAH to GRU are usually full with revenue paying BusinessFirst passengers meaning you very rarely get a BusinessFirst reward ticket on the flight.

Even when the flight is 40 to 50 percent booked in the main cabin, more often than not the loads in the front are close to 100 percent full.

I would say both flights do fairly well.

Since the flight from IAH continues to GIG any chance of the EWR flight continuing somewhere else? Perhaps, MVD? I know that CO doesn't like tag-on flights, but I am pretty sure the plane has better things to do than wait in GRU for the whole day.

Diesel33
 
commavia
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:01 pm

Quoting Diesel33 (Reply 3):
Since the flight from IAH continues to GIG any chance of the EWR flight continuing somewhere else? Perhaps, MVD?

I don't think CO has the onward 5th freedom rights GRU-MVD, and even if they did, I don't think there's a market for it. AA and UA both have the U.S.-Uruguay market covered quite well via EZE. And, with AA flying MIA-MVD nonstop during the winter, and probably going daily within the next few years, AA alone will pretty much have the market sewn up completely.

Quoting Diesel33 (Reply 3):
I know that CO doesn't like tag-on flights, but I am pretty sure the plane has better things to do than wait in GRU for the whole day.

Not necessarily. Everyone always assumes that because the utilization is bad on the plane, it should be going somewhere else. Sometimes, sitting on the ground not making money is cheaper than flying in the air not making money. Unfortunately for CO, they can't fly the plane back to the U.S. during the day as the schedules wouldn't work (IAH and EWR are too far), there isn't enough traffic (compared to AA to MIA) and they don't have the planes to do it. But, they have to keep the EWR 767 on the ground in GRU all day because business travellers demand to have a redeye back to EWR at night.
 
PPVRA
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:16 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):
Quoting Diesel33 (Reply 3):
Since the flight from IAH continues to GIG any chance of the EWR flight continuing somewhere else? Perhaps, MVD?

I don't think CO has the onward 5th freedom rights GRU-MVD, and even if they did, I don't think there's a market for it.

Doesn't the U.S. and Uruguay have a open sky agreement? Or is it with Paraguay?

Agree that there is no market for it, but a tag on to BSB/CNF or even POA could work ok-ish. While IAH pax connect onwards to GIG with the EWR a/c, the IAH a/c could connect EWR pax to CNF/BSB or POA. I bet it's much cheaper to park at these other airports as well.

Cheers,
PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
MAH4546
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:21 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 5):
Agree that there is no market for it, but a tag on to BSB/CNF or even POA could work ok-ish.

They tried tagging onto CNF in the late 1990s/2000s. Failed miserably. Lasted a very short time, IIRC.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 5):
While IAH pax connect onwards to GIG with the EWR a/c, the IAH a/c could connect EWR pax to CNF/BSB or POA. I bet it's much cheaper to park at these other airports as well.

It is much cheaper to park elsewhere. In fact, the reason AA flew to CNF and POA for so many years was because of this. However, as time went on, it became cheaper to park in GRU than fly a plane to POA/CNF, especially with the rising cost of fuel.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 5):

Doesn't the U.S. and Uruguay have a open sky agreement? Or is it with Paraguay?

Yes, I believe they do. Though that does not mean a US airline can fly GRU-MVD. All three countries need to have Open Skies with each other, which is not the case (the US and Brazil do not have Open Skies; don't know about Brazil and Uruguay).
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ikramerica
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:32 pm

Quoting Diesel33 (Reply 3):
Since the flight from IAH continues to GIG any chance of the EWR flight continuing somewhere else?

No, as the EWR flight is timed to connect the 764 GIG-GRU both ways. It must wait.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
geoffm
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:48 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
Most of the traffic goes to Sao Paulo, not Rio de Janeiro. I know this will be disputed, but I have seen traffic figures for this route. And unless something has drastically changed in the past year, this is still the case.

On a sample basis of one flight a couple of months ago (GIG-GRU-EWR), around 75% originated from GIG. The remaining handful boarded at GRU. The EWR flight, however, was mostly GRU rather than the connectees from GIG.

Geoff M.
 
MAH4546
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:59 pm

Quoting Geoffm (Reply 8):
On a sample basis of one flight a couple of months ago (GIG-GRU-EWR), around 75% originated from GIG. The remaining handful boarded at GRU. The EWR flight, however, was mostly GRU rather than the connectees from GIG.

Assuming that couple of months ago refers to the period between late December and early April, that is not surprising. That is one period in which traffic to Rio de Janeiro shoots up substationally.
a.
 
geoffm
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:19 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
Assuming that couple of months ago refers to the period between late December and early April, that is not surprising. That is one period in which traffic to Rio de Janeiro shoots up substationally.

End of March. To which flight were you referring?

Geoff M.
 
Neo
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:32 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):
It is much cheaper to park elsewhere. In fact, the reason AA flew to CNF and POA for so many years was because of this. However, as time went on, it became cheaper to park in GRU than fly a plane to POA/CNF, especially with the rising cost of fuel.

Perhaps they should reconsider CNF now that flights from PLU have been transfered to it, increasing more than 300% the pax traffic in CNF. I'm pretty sure they would do better than before.

Rgs,

Neo
 
hardiwv
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:38 pm

It is well known and documented that the CO flight IAH-GRU-GIG is predominantly booked with pax bound to GIG, especially in the higher end of the fares. As said above, about 65% to 85% (on average) of pax from IAH travel to GIG and not GRU.

Considering that CO cannot open a new nonstop route IAH-GIG because of limitations in the current bilateral, I personally think that CO would do better in performance if they operated IAH-GIG-GRU and therefore continue the EWR to GIG: EWR-GRU-GIG.

Rgs,
 
2travel2know
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:52 pm

I belive the US-Brazil bilateral does make room for 5th freedom rights.
GRU-ASU-GRU on AA and LAX-NRT-LAX on RG are good examples.
CO should consider what to do with that plane in GRU, if its profitable to fly a tag onto POA, CWB, CNF or even - with those bilateral 5th rights - CPT (!).
CM 2nd GRU flight arrives at 0430h, I'm not sure if it's CO who offers the GRU-GIG connection for that CM flight, so passengers go thru inmigration and customs at GIG.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
commavia
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:59 pm

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 13):
CO should consider what to do with that plane in GRU, if its profitable to fly a tag onto POA, CWB, CNF or even - with those bilateral 5th rights - CPT (!).

Again, though, I'm not sure there is anywhere CO could serve profitably that AA hasn't already cornered. CO has not had much luck with South American tag-ons. Look at their success in flying LIM-SCL and LIM-LPB about 6-8 years ago. Both flights only lasted a few months. I still think that it is probably more cost effective for CO to just roll the EWR 767 over to hardstand at GRU for about 12 hours than fly it somewhere where the plane will be burning fuel and resources and still losing money.
 
hardiwv
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:10 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 13):
I belive the US-Brazil bilateral does make room for 5th freedom rights.
GRU-ASU-GRU on AA and LAX-NRT-LAX on RG are good examples.

Correct.
 
MAH4546
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:18 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 12):
It is well known and documented that the CO flight IAH-GRU-GIG is predominantly booked with pax bound to GIG, especially in the higher end of the fares. As said above, about 65% to 85% (on average) of pax from IAH travel to GIG and not GRU.

No, it is not well known nor is it documented. It is internal information that CO does not make public. If this was indeed the case, CO would probably route the flight IAH-GIG-GRU. And they don't for a reason: most traffic is going to or connecting in Sao Paulo. As I have mentioned, I have been able to see this internal data, and, I assure you, most of the traffic is GRU-bound. I am not denying that CO does well in GIG...they do, especially with oil traffic, but the majority of the traffic goes to Sao Paulo. The GRU-GIG flight averages about 65% loads, and usually fills during peak periods, thanks to a healthy mix of IAH and EWR transfer traffic.

Quoting Geoffm (Reply 10):
End of March. To which flight were you referring?

GIG flights perform very well between late December and early April, as many Americans visit Rio during the period, highlighted by Carnaval
a.
 
N77014
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:41 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 14):
Again, though, I'm not sure there is anywhere CO could serve profitably that AA hasn't already cornered. CO has not had much luck with South American tag-ons. Look at their success in flying LIM-SCL and LIM-LPB about 6-8 years ago. Both flights only lasted a few months. I still think that it is probably more cost effective for CO to just roll the EWR 767 over to hardstand at GRU for about 12 hours than fly it somewhere where the plane will be burning fuel and resources and still losing money.

The problem was the Peruvian's refusal to extend CO the right to carry local boarding pax to travel to SCL.
A new life awaits you in the Off-World Colonies...
 
Neo
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:31 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
No, it is not well known nor is it documented. It is internal information that CO does not make public. If this was indeed the case, CO would probably route the flight IAH-GIG-GRU. And they don't for a reason: most traffic is going to or connecting in Sao Paulo. As I have mentioned, I have been able to see this internal data, and, I assure you, most of the traffic is GRU-bound. I am not denying that CO does well in GIG...they do, especially with oil traffic, but the majority of the traffic goes to Sao Paulo. The GRU-GIG flight averages about 65% loads, and usually fills during peak periods, thanks to a healthy mix of IAH and EWR transfer traffic.

You are so wrong!! Most pax between IAH-GRU-GIG do go to GIG. This is one of the few international XXX-GRU-GIG flights that actually has more pax to GIG than GRU.

Rgs,

Neo
 
MAH4546
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:45 am

Quoting Neo (Reply 18):

You are so wrong!! Most pax between IAH-GRU-GIG do go to GIG. This is one of the few international XXX-GRU-GIG flights that actually has more pax to GIG than GRU.

If someone can give me some data on to prove this "well known fact", then I am absolutley wrong.

Though I've seen the actual data from 2003, and I doubt the traffic patterns have dramaticlly changed. Until then, I'll stand by what I said.
a.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:59 am

Quoting Geoffm (Reply 8):
On a sample basis of one flight a couple of months ago (GIG-GRU-EWR), around 75% originated from GIG

Agree 100% !

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
Assuming that couple of months ago refers to the period between late December and early April, that is not surprising. That is one period in which traffic to Rio de Janeiro shoots up substationally.

Sorry , i can't agree with you. Rio is number 1 destination for Congress and Seminars in Latin America with more than 30 big events (more than 90) per year. Rio is also ranked 1st on HQ for Oil related biz (just TWENTY times higher than Sao Paulo in this particular). How you can say traffic goes down ? Rio with a little number of int'l flights (GRU keeps 4 times more flights), represents 33% generally of GRU int'l traffic. AF, IB, TP, AR, AA, all performs good on GIG during all the year. Also RG FRA and LIS non stop flights are also high yield for RG.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 12):
It is well known and documented that the CO flight IAH-GRU-GIG is predominantly booked with pax bound to GIG, especially in the higher end of the fares. As said above, about 65% to 85% (on average) of pax from IAH travel to GIG and not GRU.

Considering that CO cannot open a new nonstop route IAH-GIG because of limitations in the current bilateral, I personally think that CO would do better in performance if they operated IAH-GIG-GRU and therefore continue the EWR to GIG: EWR-GRU-GIG

Agreed 110%

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
No, it is not well known nor is it documented. It is internal information that CO does not make public.

I do believe Petrobras, Halliburton, and several friends from oil market which flies very often GIG-IAH are better info than any one not documented. This is public!

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
The GRU-GIG flight averages about 65% loads, and usually fills during peak periods, thanks to a healthy mix of IAH and EWR transfer traffic.

Sorry. EWR is a market well served thru GIG with AA and RG JFK flights without plane change. I really confirm (and not think) traffic for CO comes from IAH and heads mainly to GIG all the year.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 16):
GIG flights perform very well between late December and early April, as many Americans visit Rio during the period, highlighted by Carnaval

I have problems all the year in finding seats on C at GIG-MIA, many times need come to GRU to do this route. Mike, GIG has market for three daily non stops to United States. One to MIA, one to ATL and one to IAH.
Do you have statistics on AA MIA flights ? I think AA904 will be probably ranked 2 (after AA 777 service from GRU with First Class and more seats on C and Y). Again: AR, AF, IB, TP and RG non stop from GIG all performs very good all the year, many of them better than GRU operations. Rio is not a bad market, it's a 11 million people metropolitan area with almost 1,8 million barrels per day of oil production and more than 14% Brazil GDP. More than 3 million turists per year (the biggest brazilian market) and only 2,2 million int'l pax (which includes "cariocas") thru GIG.

Mike, nothing personal, i like very much your posts and information but i'm only trying to show you some numbers and facts about Rio de Janeiro and why IB, TP and AF love Rio so much  Smile Moneyyyyy!

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
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LAXintl
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:04 am

Guys, these tag on flights like GRU-GIG operate with very low load factors overall for US carriers.

For instance UA's load factor for years has ranged a mere the 30-40% for this leg, with having 2 aircraft (ORD/IAD) feed.
I am also aware AA has similar low load factors on their GRU-GIG flight while having 3 flights (JFK/MIA/DFW) provide potential feed.

Thus cannot see how Continental Airlines can be different that it can have more GIG passengers then GRU passengers.

If their are some CO employees online maybe they can pull some PBT's for a few days to see what the GRU/GIG breakdown is on the IAH-GRU flight.

Like I mentioned on a previous thread there is no question about the success of CO's Brazil - Texas services as they are out performing AA from a revenue/yield stand point, however from what I know about the market, GRU is the prime destination/market for the route.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
MAH4546
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:20 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 20):
I do believe Petrobras, Halliburton, and several friends from oil market which flies very often GIG-IAH are better info than any one not documented. This is public!

With all due respect, I'll use the actual traffic figures I have seen for this route over information passed on by friends.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 20):
I have problems all the year in finding seats on C at GIG-MIA, many times need come to GRU to do this route.

MIA-GIG performs very well, even better now that they only have one daily. It is very hard to find a C seat since there is only one daily flight. And it is especially hard to find a C seat with the extra flights operating during the holiday period, December through early April. However, the reason the flight was reduced was because AA's yields on this route were slipping as of late. Though the 2nd daily DFW-GRU flight has done nothing but hurt AA's financial performance on DFW-GRU, so I don't think it will be returning.
a.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:23 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 19):
If someone can give me some data on to prove this "well known fact", then I am absolutley wrong

Oil sector on Rio:
Petrobras, Halliburton, Texaco Chevron, Shell, Exxon Mobil, Agip ENI, Total Fina Elf, Amerada Hess, British Petroleum, Devon, Kerr-McGee, Ipiranga, Maersk, Ocean, Repsol YPF, Statoil, Unocal, Wintershall, Aker Kvaerner, Baker Hughes, BJ Services do Brasil, Cameron, FMC Technologies, Franks International, Georesearch Brazil, Hanover Brazil, M-I Drilling Fluids, National Oilwell, Pride do Brasil, Schlumberger, Smith International, Stolt Offshore, Subsea do Brasil, Tetra Technologies, Vetco Gray Oil, Transocean, Weatherford Industry, Wilson Sons, Refinaria de Manguinhos, Wal Petroleo
Off-shore/Shipyards:
Emaq, Maua-Jurong, Ishibras, Caneco, Promar, Astromaritima, Brasflex, Cia Brasileira Off-shore, Delba Maritima, Gulf Marine, Maritima Petroleum, Norskan Offshore, SIEM Consub, Superpesa, Up Offshore.
Long Term Finance Bank: BNDES
Associations:
ABRES, ONIP, ANP (Government), ABEAM, and all others
Oil Production: around 1,800,000 barrels/day
Employees in sector: 400,000
Researchers at Petrobras CENPES: 3,000 all top paid by Petrobras (the world's biggest tank which reproduces sea effects on high deep drilling is in UFRJ campus, Rio de Janeiro, 2Km from GIG)

Sao Paulo:
Hudson Petroleo, Comgas (local distribution), some very small distributors...
Long Term Finance Bank: None
Associations: None
Shipyards: None
Oil Production: 4,500 barrels / day
Employees in Sector: 3,000 (incluidng 500 from Petrobras offices in Sao Paulo which reports to Rio de Janeiro HQ where you can find the top salaries)

Another: There are 6 to 10 daily flights Rio-Macae, none from Sao Paulo. Macae is the biggest off-shore Petrobras base.

That's the technical explanation for more pax from GIG than GRU to IAH i can provide you.

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
LipeGIG
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:35 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 21):
Thus cannot see how Continental Airlines can be different that it can have more GIG passengers then GRU passengers.


Lax, flights from Washington (Government) , Dallas (connections) and JFK (Finance) are mainly O&D to Sao Paulo. CO IAH seems different due it has been adopted as the oil flight from mainly Rio industries. In fact there are more than 20,000 americans working in Rio and Macae for local oil industries. Oil is O&D Rio-Houston. The report is given by flight users and could find explanations on the large concentration of oil biz in Rio de Janeiro (see above). Oil is not a Sao Paulo Biz. I do believe Haliburton, Petrobras, Exxon, Texaco and others can buy more Biz Ticket than Sao Paulo market. Why fly to Houston from SP ? Houston is so far a big oil city, not a financial center or a touristic center. Connections ? Low yield when compared to Oil companies with large cash positions as we all know.
And also, If CO knows GRU is the main destination from IAH, so more pax come from EWR and they can keep the service with the 762 as EWR-GRU-GIG and not the 764 which can be a single GRU-IAH.

Rgds,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
MAH4546
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:40 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 21):

Thus cannot see how Continental Airlines can be different that it can have more GIG passengers then GRU passengers.

CO's flights aren't that different, though they do better than UA and AA's tag-on flights, thanks the oil industry traffic. It is nothing extraordinary, though, as you mention. Tomorrow's GRU-GIG leg has wide open availability in both C and Y. Of all the US-GIG tag-on flights, however, CO's IAH-GRU-GIG service has the most spillover traffic to Rio de Janeiro, definitley.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 24):
Lax, flights from Washington (Government) , Dallas (connections) and JFK (Finance) are mainly O&D to Sao Paulo.

There is very little O&D on DFW-GRU.

[Edited 2005-06-24 05:01:42]
a.
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:56 am

Well having lived in both Houston and Rio de Janeiro I've taken the CO flights 3 times-- I do know my three flights on CO were 60-65% GIG-IAH, but this is only three roundtrips (and my personal experiance), so as others have asked I'd like to see some of the real numbers-- just for arguments sake.

Interesting discussion BTW.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Capt-AWACS, Not all pilots are alcoholics, We don't go to meetings
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PPVRA
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:33 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 23):
Sao Paulo:
Hudson Petroleo, Comgas (local distribution), some very small distributors...
Long Term Finance Bank: None
Associations: None
Shipyards: None
Oil Production: 4,500 barrels / day
Employees in Sector: 3,000 (incluidng 500 from Petrobras offices in Sao Paulo which reports to Rio de Janeiro HQ where you can find the top salaries)



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 24):
Why fly to Houston from SP ? Houston is so far a big oil city, not a financial center or a touristic center. Connections ? Low yield when compared to Oil companies with large cash positions as we all know.

But then you have Texas Instruments, for example, and other tech companies. Not just oil.


If the loads on GRU-GIG isonly 65%, including the EWR pax, how can IAH-GIG have 65-85% loads? I have to say that at least some 20% from the EWR flight is connecting to GIG, no?


On the other hand, VarigLog has now a 2X weekly service GRU-GIG-IAH with a MD-11F.

Article about the RG Log service (in Portuguese + small paragraph about CO service):

http://www.netmarinha.com.br/setores.asp?Ct=dir&Id=7487&_Area=aereo

PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
767-300ER
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:53 pm

My point exactly PPVRA. The GRU-GIG leg is IAH+EWR traffic. And although Houston is THE oil capital of the US, dont forget that Houston's economy is also diverse, and not ONLY oil companies exist in Houston. Houston is number two only to NY in Fortune 500 headquarters, lets not forget. And also, if GIG is OVERWHELMINGLY stronger in loads, why would CO make the flight to GRU? They know what they are doing more than us i can guarantee you that, so the GRU flight must bring in SOME loads, pretty soon people will argue that the IAH-GIG flight accounts for 90% of the loads. People in GIG keep wanting to belive that GIG will surpass GRU in international flights. GRU is the financial hub not only of Brazil but of Latin America as a whole. Most Latin headquarters are located in Sao Paulo. Being Brazilian, i want nothing more than to see both cities grow and prosper, but its arguing that LA will take over NYC with international flights and traffic, and that will never happen. Sao Paulo has STRONG yields, and airlines flights go to where there is $$$.
 
hardiwv
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:33 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 24):
Lax, flights from Washington (Government) , Dallas (connections) and JFK (Finance) are mainly O&D to Sao Paulo. CO IAH seems different due it has been adopted as the oil flight from mainly Rio industries.

Indeed, with the exception of DFW which is a connection hub with little O&D.

Quoting 767-300ER (Reply 28):
Houston is number two only to NY in Fortune 500 headquarters, lets not forget.

Interesting, this may explain why CO keeps the flight to GIG via GRU. I'm sure they are filling up the plane with much more than oils business only, and then of course Sao Paulo is king in any other aspect.

Also, until the recently announced DL ATL-GIG, the only nonstop flight from the US to GIG was from MIA (AA and RG). So there was no incentive for CO to route a flight nonstop to GIG because pax would have to connect/change planes/stop-over anyway. Now, with the recent DL nonstop flight, I think we can expect so surprises from CO.

I still think that the routing I suggested above is the most effective, giving the limitations of the Brazil-US agreement:

IAH-GIG-GRU and EWR-GRU-GIG.

However, the last thing any airline wants is to hurt its position in GRU. Just see the case of AF: alhtough its GIG flight has consistently outperformed its GRU flight, AF decided to increase flights to GRU and not to GIG. Competition is the core of the business and GRU is too an important market to be placed in "second place"....

Quoting 767-300ER (Reply 28):
GRU in international flights. GRU is the financial hub not only of Brazil but of Latin America as a whole. Most Latin headquarters are located in Sao Paulo.

Here you go!

Quoting Lt-AWACS (Reply 26):
Interesting discussion BTW.

Agree.

Rgs,
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:23 pm

I've seen brazilians @ Houston huge Medical Centre and most of the time their portuguese accent wasn't carioca.
If CO flies EWR/IAH-GRU with tag-onto GIG and not EWR/IAH-GIG with tag-onto GRU is for a reason.
IMHO Oil related CO IAH-GIG traffic weights a lot, but still less than EWR-GRU.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
N77014
Posts: 812
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:16 pm

RE: CO IAH-GRU

Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:23 am

No reason for CO to dilute yields with a separate flight. The B767's are an incremental jump in capacity big enough to knock off the profit margin if the demand is not there to justify it.
A new life awaits you in the Off-World Colonies...
 
MAH4546
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Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: CO IAH-GRU

Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:30 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 29):
However, the last thing any airline wants is to hurt its position in GRU. Just see the case of AF: alhtough its GIG flight has consistently outperformed its GRU flight, AF decided to increase flights to GRU and not to GIG.

That's because if they increased CDG-GIG, they would hurt yields. GIG-CDG's great performance is thanks to the fact that the market is so limitedly served.
a.
 
767-300ER
Topic Author
Posts: 247
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:58 am

Are we ever going to find out the answer???
 
Rafabozzolla
Posts: 988
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RE: CO IAH-GRU

Sun Jun 26, 2005 1:24 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 27):
If the loads on GRU-GIG isonly 65%, including the EWR pax, how can IAH-GIG have 65-85% loads? I have to say that at least some 20% from the EWR flight is connecting to GIG, no?



Quoting 767-300ER (Reply 28):
My point exactly PPVRA. The GRU-GIG leg is IAH+EWR traffic

I think this pretty much settles the case
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: CO IAH-GRU

Sun Jun 26, 2005 1:36 am

Quoting 767-300ER (Reply 28):
People in GIG keep wanting to belive that GIG will surpass GRU in international flights. GRU is the financial hub not only of Brazil but of Latin America as a whole. Most Latin headquarters are located in Sao Paulo. Being Brazilian, i want nothing more than to see both cities grow and prosper, but its arguing that LA will take over NYC with international flights and traffic, and that will never happen. Sao Paulo has STRONG yields, and airlines flights go to where there is $$$.

If i am the people in GIG please note that nowadays i live in Sao Paulo. Is 100% right that Sao Paulo is the most important city, industrial center, and it's the brazilian financial center. But we are trying to discuss a IAH-GIG flight mainly used by oil companies. Not banks or suggar producers. Airlines flights go to where there is money, okay, but pax to Houston come more from Rio. We take a look on some experiences here, all of them told you loads for GIG-GRU-IAH comes from Rio. Rio couldn't be a city that put more pax than Sao Paulo in a ONLY ONE single flight ? Sao Paulo is 100% bigger in everything than Rio ? No. My excuse i'm brazilian, "carioca" , i know GIG will bever be number 1 in int'l flights and never said that, but that GIG is the feeder for CO IAH flight, it's very clear to me.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 27):
But then you have Texas Instruments, for example, and other tech companies. Not just oil.

Okay PPVRA, but i'm talking about an entire industry (oil), 98 or 99% concentraded on Rio. You have Texas and a lot of tech companies ok, how many employees they have ? More than Petrobras ?
For all other segments, brazilian pax uses to connect thru GRU (because there is not a clear O&D for DFW for example, so go to the big hub GRU)
But for oil is clear to me that IAH flight is feeded by Rio de Janeiro pax.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 29):
Dallas (connections) and JFK (Finance) are mainly O&D to Sao Paulo. CO IAH seems different due it has been adopted as the oil flight from mainly Rio industries.

Indeed, with the exception of DFW which is a connection hub with little O&D.

That's what i said about Dallas (connections).
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: CO IAH-GRU

Sun Jun 26, 2005 1:49 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 32):
That's because if they increased CDG-GIG, they would hurt yields. GIG-CDG's great performance is thanks to the fact that the market is so limitedly served.

Agree. But and if G3 provide connections for AF thru GIG ? AF CDG-GIG is only to Rio de Janeiro market (and its a 744). AF GRU operations include other cities thru JJ network (and its a 772 nowadays).
Limited service not to Europe: Lisbon/Porto, Madrid/Barcelona, Paris, Frankfurt all are served with non stop service and Milan and London with stop in SP (only London and Madrid are not daily yet but MAD become a 10 flights per week on november) and also charters for London, Milan/Rome, Brussels and Zurich. For Rio i think it's quite sufficient. Problem is latin america and US/Canada service, where i can agree with you.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 29):
However, the last thing any airline wants is to hurt its position in GRU. Just see the case of AF: alhtough its GIG flight has consistently outperformed its GRU flight, AF decided to increase flights to GRU and not to GIG. Competition is the core of the business and GRU is too an important market to be placed in "second place"....

Hardi, without see the AF statement is hard to understand the reasons they have and also, we have to wait for AF/DL/G3 decisions to where they connect. GIG has more flights nowadays but G3 is waiting many new aircrafts which can be used to improve GRU service. I do agree that GRU is more important than GIG and ony other market in Brazil. I only repeat, concerning to IAH, Rio is O&D oriented due to the oil industry.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: CO IAH-GRU

Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:52 am

Quoting 767-300ER (Reply 33):
Are we ever going to find out the answer???

I try to obtain an answer direct from CO. Let's see if they can solve this
question.

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: CO IAH-GRU

Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:04 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 27):
If the loads on GRU-GIG isonly 65%, including the EWR pax, how can IAH-GIG have 65-85% loads? I have to say that at least some 20% from the EWR flight is connecting to GIG, no?

I don't know. But GIG-GRU-JFK service is offered by AA and RG without the need of changing planes on GRU and both flights are most fullfilled by SP pax. RG JFK usually gets 15 to 25% from GIG, i never used AA flight so i can't say. I can assume around 10% come from/to GIG in the case of EWR flight. I lived in New York and knows the huge brazilian community in Newark (mainly people from Minas Gerais) but it's not strong destination for "cariocas" (peolple born in Rio de Janeiro).
And when i state the 65% number it was the number of pax from IAH to GIG only. I never mention the number of connections from EWR flight. I assume 65% more 10% not 65% less 10%.

Rgds,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8522
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: CO IAH-GRU

Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:39 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 38):
I don't know. But GIG-GRU-JFK service is offered by AA and RG without the need of changing planes on GRU and both flights are most fullfilled by SP pax. RG JFK usually gets 15 to 25% from GIG, i never used AA flight so i can't say.

One big reason is that NYC is not really a STAR hub. I've never been on that flight, so I'm not sure, but would it be safe to assume that RG get's tons of Brazilian pax, but not many Americans to/from JFK? I'm not saying ZERO americans, but say 30% of the loads are NYC based?

CO and AA are stronger than UA/RG from NYC. RG has good loads because of Brazilians, plus a some STAR/JetBlue PAX based in NY/Boston.

GRU-NYC:

RG: Lot's of Brazilians, some Americans.
CO: Lot's of Americans, a few Brazilians.
AA: Lot's of Americans, significant number of Brazilians (don't forget JJ)

Would that be about right?

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 35):
but that GIG is the feeder for CO IAH flight, it's very clear to me.

It's not hard for me to see that most of the First/Biz pax really do go to GIG (Oil biz, duh), but in the end the loads might end up being quite evenly split between GIG and GRU.

Quoting N77014 (Reply 31):
No reason for CO to dilute yields with a separate flight.

Indeed, so by flying via GRU CO doesn't lose GRU business to AA via MIA. And by flying DIRECTLY to GIG, CO doesn't lose GIG business (no competition, no better options).

PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: CO IAH-GRU

Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:11 am

Didnt CO one fly two seperate flights out of EWR to Brazil - one nonstop to GRU and one nonstop to GIG? Both were daily DC10s - the nonstop to GIG was dropped and the current EWR-GRU-GIG routing was put into place.

Back to IAH-GRU, I think that the flight will continue in its current format....adding a second flight would dilute yeilds; CO has been very effective with its strategy of not putting too many seats into the market and thereby keeping fares rather high.....and, as discussed many times, its unlikely that CO has an additional 767 available for a second flight between Houston and Brazil.....if CO gets IAH-EZE authority (any news on that issue?) they will have to squeeze the schedule once again to find a 762 to operate that new route.
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: CO IAH-GRU

Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:51 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 40):
Back to IAH-GRU, I think that the flight will continue in its current format....adding a second flight would dilute yeilds; CO has been very effective with its strategy of not putting too many seats into the market and thereby keeping fares rather high.....and, as discussed many times, its unlikely that CO has an additional 767 available for a second flight between Houston and Brazil.....if CO gets IAH-EZE authority (any news on that issue?) they will have to squeeze the schedule once again to find a 762 to operate that new route.

Dutchjet, IAH market (plus connections) for Brazil i think it's in the size of a single flight. Two flights from IAH to Brazil will make the same as DFW: less profits. If CO gets partnership with G3, could they one day operate IAH-GIG and EWR-GRU using G3 connections GIG-GRU (only 3 flights per day nowadays).

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: CO IAH-GRU

Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:15 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 39):
One big reason is that NYC is not really a STAR hub. I've never been on that flight, so I'm not sure, but would it be safe to assume that RG get's tons of Brazilian pax, but not many Americans to/from JFK? I'm not saying ZERO americans, but say 30% of the loads are NYC based?



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 39):
RG: Lot's of Brazilians, some Americans.
CO: Lot's of Americans, a few Brazilians.
AA: Lot's of Americans, significant number of Brazilians (don't forget JJ)

The idea i have all the flights matches with your point of view.
CO in fact have a little number of brazilians besides they are a huge comunity on EWR. The problem is that CO does not offer connections on Brazil and Minas Gerais are the biggest domestic market for EWR some days even bigger than Sao Paulo final destination pax. I think CO doesn't extend the flight to CNF just because they have very good loads nowadays at GRU. G3 partnership can allow CO in the near future to offer connections which can help to upgrade aircraft from 762 to 764.

Rgds,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
N77014
Posts: 812
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:16 pm

RE: CO IAH-GRU

Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:22 am

I don't understand why daily, direct service between GIG and IAH is being complained over.
A new life awaits you in the Off-World Colonies...
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8522
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: CO IAH-GRU

Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:28 am

Quoting N77014 (Reply 43):
I don't understand why daily, direct service between GIG and IAH is being complained over.

1. We are trying to figure out where most of those pax are heading to (GIG or GRU?), and from where to IAH (GIG or GRU?).

2. From one point of view, the answer for number Q's 1 being "GIG," raises another question: Why does CO fly to GRU non-stop instead of GIG?

Basically...
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat

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