Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
hoya
Topic Author
Posts: 547
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:25 pm

UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:26 pm

UA's flight attendants union has threatened to start random walkouts on Friday if UA proceeds to transfer the pensions to the PBGC. More here:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...344326.story?coll=chi-business-hed

Why is the AFA so militant? Don't they realize they've already lost? If they strike, UA could fail and pensions will be the least of their worries.
Hoya Saxa!!
 
ARGinLON
Posts: 550
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:26 pm

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:33 pm

well... I am sure UA management has predicted that this may happen... Hopefully some UA employees in the forum may be able to say how possible this is.
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:41 pm

UA has already said they will fire any F/As who partake in this, and I for one believe they will. It's just another threat, with all the strike talk this year I take this with a grain of salt...
 
User avatar
ERJ170
Posts: 5919
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:44 pm

Did they say that for the F/A also? I thought it was for CS/Ramp agents.. but, as always, i could be wrong..

I think that if they can get enough support, the strike could work. I mean, could you really see UA firing all the F/A ORD, IAD, SFO, or LAX? That would be death to the company I would think..

international flights would have to be cancelled.. and you can't just pull F/A from RJ to cover F/A on mainline can you?
Aiming High and going far..
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:00 pm

Well, no United F/As work on RJs...like I said, I doubt this will happen. The AFA is seriously one of the most idiodic unions I have ever seen. There is no way they can stop the transfer of the pensions, what the hell are they hoping to accomplish?
 
rdu777
Posts: 216
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 1:49 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:14 pm

Just thought I'd ask but exactly how much is their pensions now? And how do these compare to airlines other than the big six. I'd just like to see how much of a difference there is and then decide if they're being reasonable. Personally right now I would just be happy to have a job with UA.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:15 pm

Is this a real threat or just scary rhetoric? How many times in the last few years have we seen unions threaten to strike, only to quiet down and not do anything -- the deafening sound of silence. I suppose we shall see.

As Mr. Boyd intellegently says:

"I'd question how much support this really has. Because most know that if they do this, they won't have to worry about their pensions. They won't have an airline.

"They have every reason to be angry," Boyd said of the flight attendants. "It's an awful thing that's happening to them. But the solution isn't to kill the airline."


[Edited 2005-06-30 16:16:56]
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:22 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 2):
UA has already said they will fire any F/As who partake in this, and I for one believe they will.

Not legal.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
flypdx
Posts: 603
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:19 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:26 pm

The FAs are idiots to do this, I am sorry. ANd please, no UA FAs or employees tell me I am selfish, because I Am not. Value the fact that you HAVE a job, and aren't part of the unemployed percentage of the united states. If FAs strike, then it could be the death of UA, and there goes your jobs. Simple as that.

Now, there were news stories going around earlier about this, so I doubt it will happen. I doubt that the FAs would risk it like this, but who knows. Hopefully UA is still around for me to fly at the end of the month.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:33 pm

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 7):
Not legal.

That remains to be seen. Everybody in this case -- UA, the AFA, the individual FAs -- are working on a set of assumptions, from what I can see, that have yet to actually be proven in court.

The AFA is working off the premise that UA abrogating its pensions and handing them over to the PBGC violates the pension clauses in their agreement and, as such, constitutes a breach of contract. Because of this, the AFA believes that their legal standing rests on the principle that if UA violates their mutual agreement -- by eliminating their pensions -- it frees the AFA to also violate the contract that will then be null and void, and thus strike.

UA, on the other hand, is working off of the assumption that their termination of the pension plans, and perhaps the entire contract, is completely legal through the bankruptcy process and, as such, if AFA decides to walk or carry out any kind of job action against UA, they are in breach of their contract and thus can be fired.

It will be interesting to see who wins the litigation that no doubt will ultimately arise from this battle of wills.
 
Wayfarer
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:32 pm

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:51 pm

Quoting Flypdx (Reply 8):
Now, there were news stories going around earlier about this, so I doubt it will happen. I doubt that the FAs would risk it like this, but who knows. Hopefully UA is still around for me to fly at the end of the month.

refreshing comment! UA won't stop because of this FA strike speculation
EASTERN AIRLINES: We Are Still Here Today
 
slider
Posts: 7640
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:56 pm

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 7):
Not legal.

I believe you can terminate employees who participate in illegal work actions.

Wildcatters get burned down.
 
OHLHD
Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:02 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:00 am

So thats the 10234th time written on A-Net that somebody at UA "might strike". Come on guys!  Smile
 
hoya
Topic Author
Posts: 547
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:25 pm

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:27 am

So I've browsed the AFA's website, http://www.unitedafa.org , seems like they do have support from the rank and file, or at least it appears that way. They've even conducted 'drills', in which they claim they can 'shut down' ORD in 12 minutes. So is the goal of CHAOS complete shutdown, which they seem to be bragging about, or just disruptions?

Oh, and I love the fact that they're trying to involve paying customers. It's a superb way to scare them off to competitors, make them feel less confident about booking and flying UA. That is surely helping their cause.  sarcastic 
Hoya Saxa!!
 
andersjt
Posts: 367
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:50 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:44 am

There was noise last May just before the holiday weekend. Nothing happened, but somehow this little piece just seems different. Maybe it has something to do with the turnover to the PBGC - this is today, right? What a mess - why do the United F/A's put up with their union? This kind of publicity only makes matters worse for all of them.

There was another posting a few days ago about how much in legal fees UAL has spent connected with the BK. What part of that is having to keep going back to court to deal with the unions and these outbursts? On the other side, if I were a dues paying United F/A, I would be questioning how my union leadership is squandering my money to keep up this fight. Throw some of that money into the pension.

Legal or not - a walkout this weekend would be disastrous for the airline and ALL of its employees. The WSJ today said they were expecting average loads above 89% for the holiday weekend. I hope against hope this will not happen as I have just dropped $5K for 6 segments and 120 Starbuck's cards to give out this weekend (they're running 744's LAX to IAD and I just had to book!).

To the United F/A's - don't let your union force you into something that you don't want to do -
Oh how I long for the day when the skies were truly Friendly!
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:45 am

Quoting Hoya (Reply 13):
Oh, and I love the fact that they're trying to involve paying customers. It's a superb way to scare them off to competitors, make them feel less confident about booking and flying UA. That is surely helping their cause.

Here's the problem with that assumption, what other competitors have seats available for passengers to flee to? Long term this may haunt UA like the Summer of 2000, but the fact remaine that if everybody is flying at about a 90% load factor, customers are stuck with the airline they booked.

We have already seen this during irregular ops this summer.

Now with regard to the F/As threat. I think it is really stupid to put your career on the line becasue the Union tell you to. Commavia's post is right on the money. Wildcatters in an illegal strike can be fired, and as for the Unions claims to have wide spread support, I talk to F/As everyday and while they are angry I don't think they are crazy.

Personally, as I get closer to getting a job outside of this industry, I begin to feel similarly to those who have demanded UA to liquidate and be done with it. I would like to get a bunch of stiking F/As together after they are on the street with no job and show them thier Union leaders still working in nice Union offices for other F/As and ask them if it was worth it.

Its ironic really, to speak metaphorically, FAs fly to 35,000 feet but can only see the length of the cabin.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
ARGinLON
Posts: 550
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:26 pm

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:48 am

It doesn't make any sense that stupid CHAOS campaign. Do they want to shut the whole company down? How thick do you have to be to spread these rumors to your customers!

They're just playing with fire...

What a joke it may be working for UA! No working commitment whatsoever!

What can you expect from a company that lost USD90+ M in May when most other carriers made money. (ahh I am sorry, they blame it on oil prices - somebody forgot to include it on UA's business plan)

sooner or later...good luck UA
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:52 am

Quoting ARGinLON (Reply 16):
What can you expect from a company that lost USD90+ M in May when most other carriers made money. (ahh I am sorry, they blame it on oil prices - somebody forgot to include it on UA's business plan)

Name for me a US carrier other than WN that made money?

If by most carriers you lump in World carriers then yes alot more carriers are making money but still the statement is false becasue it is "MOST."

This is a bogus claim and one that doesn't even advance the topic at hand. You might want to get your facts straight before posting, you'd look les like a fool that way.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
ARGinLON
Posts: 550
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:26 pm

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:56 am

Wait for another couple of week and you'll see that both CO and probably AA were in the black during may. You'll see.
 
tundra767
Posts: 401
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:33 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:04 am

I guess we would have to walk in the shoes of UA employees to know what its like. I wish them luck.
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:05 am

Quoting ARGinLON (Reply 18):
Wait for another couple of week and you'll see that both CO and probably AA were in the black during may. You'll see.

Right becasue they buy thier fuel from some other place where it's incredibly cheap, and becasue they have done more that UA to get costs down. Right.

OK, I'l believe a guy who just made his twelfth post because.....
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8886
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:13 am

I hope UA fires some of the militant FAs. The UA FAs wearing AFA buttons and ribbons invariably are foul-tempered, bloody-minded, and lazy. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
 
hoya
Topic Author
Posts: 547
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:25 pm

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:15 am

Quoting ARGinLON (Reply 16):
What can you expect from a company that lost USD90+ M in May when most other carriers made money.

I'd be very surprised if anyone besides WN will make a profit in May. Oil prices have shot up to $60/barrel, and the airlines have been unable to raise fares, despite high load factors. If you look at UA's numbers for May, they claim to have lowered their CASM(excluding fuel) and experienced a rise in revenue. After all these cost cuts, wage reductions, lease renegotiations, I'm assuming that UA's costs are similar to other airlines. If UA can't turn an operating profit, I don't think anyone can. Oh, and remember, even WN stated not so long ago that if it wasn't for its fuel hedges (they get fuel around $30/barrel), they would be losing money too.

Anyway, any UA FA's here to offer their opinions on tomorrow's possible work actions?
Hoya Saxa!!
 
ARGinLON
Posts: 550
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:26 pm

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:20 am

UA employee: I understand you are ungry. If I were you, i will go all the way to JFK and get upset with your colleagues rather than with people in this forum (you even have a telephone number to call if you can't be bother with going)


July 1, 2005 - Flight Attendants and other United employees will caravan around JFK Terminal 7 from 3:30 pm to 5:30 pm in protest of United Airlines' arrogant attack on front-line employees' wages and benefits through exploitation of the bankruptcy process while failing to contribute commensurate concessions from executives.

Bring your car, your kids, your co-workers and your issues to the public roadways at JFK Airport.

No car? Come be a banner waving passenger!

We face another 'poor payday' and the termination of their pension plan while executives revel in hefty bonuses and a secure pension trust. Come out and exercise your free speech rights as we protest the continued harassment and threats from management after our sacrifices of pay cuts, longer work days and now, the fight for our pensions.

Your local officers will be present as we speak out against numerous issues facing our Council and others.

Please call Wesley Collier, 917-549-4712
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:22 am

Quoting Hoya (Reply 22):
I'd be very surprised if anyone besides WN will make a profit in May.

AA made an operational profit for Q1, the worst quarter of the year historically, as did B6. As for May, both AA and CO among the legacies stand a very good chance of making a net profit, and will both very likely make operational profits, even with $60 oil.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20946
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:32 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 6):
As Mr. Boyd intellegently says:

I was hoping to post those quotes! Seriously, he has a good point, UA is between the proverbial "rock and hard place" and either this is a bluff or...

Does anyone know the estimated losses per day for a UA strike? Just curious.

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 12):
So thats the 10234th time written on A-Net that somebody at UA "might strike". Come on guys!

I count 15,221!  duck   rotfl 

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 15):
but the fact remaine that if everybody is flying at about a 90% load factor, customers are stuck with the airline they booked.

Good point. However, it will drive away customers who *must* make it to their destination by a certain time. Since many of these are the "high yield" customers, I have no doubt every other airline will cut the number of "cheap seats" pre-sold and make sure to accommodate any high paying customer who books away due to a perceived strike threat. Do I need to start another discussion on the importance of yield on a.net?  spin  Oh, I agree the seats wouldn't be available the first day of the strike, but by week two no high yield customer would have much trouble paying their $600++ to get a seat. Many of those passangers who have become accustomed to $200 coast to coast fares would find that during the duration of the strike the cheapest fares will have gone up 50%++ (excluding a few "teaser" cheap seats left on the books for advertising purposes).

Quoting Wayfarer (Reply 10):
refreshing comment! UA won't stop because of this FA strike speculation

see above

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 21):
I hope UA fires some of the militant FAs.

 gasp  I hope not and I'm not exactly pro-union. Firing "militant employees" for just that will lead to a long term work environment that would be so counter productive it would be insane. Having a system to penalize employees who detract from the customer experience would be great but how to implement it so that abuse is minimized I do not claim to know how. There should a review process so that the "problem children" (from a customer standpoint) could be disciplined.

Lightsaber
I cannot wait to get vaccinated to live again! Warning: I simulated that it takes 50%+ vaccinated to protect the vaccinated and 75%+ vaccinated to protect the vac-hesitant.
 
slider
Posts: 7640
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 2:07 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 25):
Firing "militant employees" for just that will lead to a long term work environment that would be so counter productive it would be insane.

I disagree- culling the herd of the problem children would be addition by subtraction and would send a strong message that illegal wildcat actions are intolerable.

Of course, UA doesn't exactly have much equity with its employees at present time to go to that well, so to speak, so they'd have to follow through with some substantial positive change for the employees.
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 2:15 am

Slider-How about doing some of the stuff American is doing, such as making their hubs equipment-specific? Let's say, keep the Airbii at LAX/SFO/IAD, the 737's at DEN and ORD, and have the 757's be primarily based at DEN and ORD, but be responsible for the trunk and Premium Service routes? Is there any reason why, other than the 747-400 at DEN, every single type of aircraft has to be at every single United hub?
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:15 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 27):
Slider-How about doing some of the stuff American is doing, such as making their hubs equipment-specific? Let's say, keep the Airbii at LAX/SFO/IAD, the 737's at DEN and ORD, and have the 757's be primarily based at DEN and ORD, but be responsible for the trunk and Premium Service routes? Is there any reason why, other than the 747-400 at DEN, every single type of aircraft has to be at every single United hub?

This is a great point, and something I think UA should have done a while ago, especially considering how varied their fleet is. At the very least, because the 737 fleet is steadily dwindling, they should IMO move all of those to IAD and LAX/SFO, leaving all the A319s and A320s for the east-west flying out of ORD and DEN linking the two coasts. Allow 757s and 767s to fill in the holes in major trunk markets, and put the 747s and 777s only on international and Hawaii routes. Simplification is the key.
 
slider
Posts: 7640
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:22 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 27):
Is there any reason why, other than the 747-400 at DEN, every single type of aircraft has to be at every single United hub?

It is a great idea--AA has had major success by "firewalling" ORD for example.

Another good question for UA is why do they have redundant fleet types as well?

Of course, this SHOULD be part of an operating plan that they SHOULD have proferred through their reorganization efforts but haven't.

United just doesn't miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity it seems.
 
CTHEWORLD
Posts: 463
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 5:27 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:13 am

The following quote is from Greg Davidobitch of the AFA

"We will strike if we must, but with CHAOS management won't know, and the passengers won't know when or where or how we will strike."

It looks as if AFA is fully in support of hurting UAL management as well as United Passengers. I guess the two defeats that AFA had in court regarding their pensions isn't sinking in. Well, getting $shit canned certainly will. If passengers are directly affected, as part of AFA targeting of passengers, I say passengers at the struck airport have every right to tell the striking AFA members how they feel. As well, it will be a great day when UAL rids themselves the minority of the F/A's that support AFA. What the AFA rank and file is going to find out, and quickly, is that once again AFA has mislead them on their "rights", but this time, their blind devotion to their union will cost them their jobs...and rightfully so!
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:39 am

Quoting CTHEWORLD (Reply 30):
It looks as if AFA is fully in support of hurting UAL management

At what point does a person just lie down and take it? At what point does a person say, well, I've lost half my pay and half my pension and so - screw it - there are other jobs out there.

Why should any United employee at that level give two hoots about the survival of a management team that has so completely kicked them in the nuts?

Despite all the cuts that Mr. Tilton and Mr. Brace have demanded and have got, United still lost money in May - even excluding the cost of fuel - and has already lost $1.4 billion this year.

A loss of $1.4 billion this year, despite all the cuts, despite all the staff givebacks.

United cannot sustain these losses, and, if there is no turnaround, will cease to exist - as we know it - anyway.

So what is it Mr. Tilton and Mr. Brace have done that should merit the support of the staff?

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
CTHEWORLD
Posts: 463
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 5:27 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:47 am

Were is the AFA's turn around plan? They don't have one! Why has the board and creditors committee supported the current management team if everything is so wrong? What are you seeing is the AFA trying to salvage what they can of their poor posturing, they are trying to save face in light of horrible advice they have given their rank and file. How is it that ALL of the other unions have reached agreements with UAL, but not AFA? The same management team that reached consensus with 4 other unions can't with the AFA? BS, the AFA won't and can't face reality and negotiate, they want the status quo or nothing...well they are about to get just that.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 31):
I've lost half my pay and half my pension and so - screw it - there are other jobs out there.

Then, fine, they can leave, why F*** it up for other work groups that have negotiated in good faith and reconciled with where their industry is? If they wan't to leave, if they just can't stand working at UAL anymore, then walk away.

I hope the pink slips fly, the first one going to ALL AFA officers that are still on UA payroll!
 
N766UA
Posts: 8354
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:52 am

I'm really sick of United's F/As. They don't seem to give a rats ass what happens to their company. Stupid stews gotta be all huffy about everything... they pulled this crap at CO too, and CO screwed them over on stock sharing when the time came for that. Serves 'em right.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:09 am

Quoting CTHEWORLD (Reply 32):
Were is the AFA's turn around plan? They don't have one!

Um - last I heard, it was not up to staff to come up with a plan.

Last time I checked, it was the function of management to run the company - to decide it's function and its direction - effeciently, and to mainatin staff morale.

This is why management is paid the big bucks, and gets the big rewards.

Or are you an advocate of ESOP?

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
ckfred
Posts: 5188
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:17 am

CTHEWORLD:

Back in 1997, when AA's pilots had their 20-minute strike, there were news accounts of pilots leaving cockpits at 12:01 Eastern time, and passengers were forcibly trying to keep them in the cockpits and threatening physical harm if they didn't fly the planes as scheduled. I seem to remember in one instance, an F/A ran up the jetbridge and got security to keep the situation from completely getting out of hand.

If UA's F/As do start a CHAOS strike, it will be interesting to see if inconvienced passengers let striking F/As know in no uncertain terms that they should quit picketing and get back to work.
 
CTHEWORLD
Posts: 463
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 5:27 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:21 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 34):
Um - last I heard, it was not up to staff to come up with a plan.

Last time I checked, it was the function of management to run the company - to decide it's function and its direction - effeciently, and to mainatin staff morale.

It is not uncommon for organized groups to approach possible investors, and develop plans on the side to challenge the current management teams plans, once exclusivity has expired. But to date, all AFA has done is stonewall and pine for the day of yore.

As far as the ESOP goes, that might have had a little more of a fighting chance had AFA participated, but the lack of vision on AFA's part, helped kill that one off too.

[Edited 2005-06-30 22:22:35]
 
CTHEWORLD
Posts: 463
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 5:27 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:25 am

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 35):
If UA's F/As do start a CHAOS strike, it will be interesting to see if inconvienced passengers let striking F/As know in no uncertain terms that they should quit picketing and get back to work.

That would be great, maybe they would pull their heads out then, when they realize the courts don't care about their whining, the company doesnt care aobut their whining, the creditors don't care about their whining and now the public doesn't care about their whining. Some oughta walk up to them and say, "S.T.F.U. and get back to work"
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:25 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 31):
At what point does a person just lie down and take it? At what point does a person say, well, I've lost half my pay and half my pension and so - screw it - there are other jobs out there.

Why should any United employee at that level give two hoots about the survival of a management team that has so completely kicked them in the nuts?

For those UA employees that share the above sentiments, nothing is stopping them from terminating their contract of employment. That way, they can walk away from an employment environment that no longer meets their needs.

On the other hand, if they stage a walkout that will very likely bring down the entire airline, they will also terminate the employment of those UA employees that don't share their views, and wish to keep working for UA. Why should the anger of a few be allowed to inflict real economic harm on the majority of UA employees who, if not happy, are at least content to keep working in their current position?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:28 am

Quoting CTHEWORLD (Reply 36):
It is not uncommon for organized groups to approach possible investors, and develop plans on the side to challenge the current management teams plans, once exclusivity has expired.

But exclusivity has not expired - it has just been extended once again. Yet again.

So who knows what plans are out there, waiting to be presented on that distant day when - if ever - exclusivity does expire?

It is one thing to cricticize people for what they have done. It is quite peculiar to criticize them them because they have not done something which they cannot - legally - do.

Quoting CTHEWORLD (Reply 36):
But to date, all AFA has done is stonewall and pine for the day of yore.

And taken it in the nuts.

If accepting massive pay cuts and facing a loss of half the pension is stonewalling and pining for the days of yore, then we speak a different language.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:33 am

Quoting CTHEWORLD (Reply 32):
Then, fine, they can leave, why F*** it up for other work groups that have negotiated in good faith and reconciled with where their industry is? If they want to leave, if they just can't stand working at UAL anymore, then walk away.

My sentiments exactly. Last time I flew UA, I didn't see anyone from management forcing employees to work at gunpoint.

Does anyone here think that there is any other possible outcome of a strike other than the destruction of the airline? I can't, and while I understand the anger and frustration of the UA employees who bear the brunt of the current work environment, I can't understand the motivation of those posters who seem to have no regard for the UA employees who want to keep their jobs.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:41 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 39):
If accepting massive pay cuts and facing a loss of half the pension is stonewalling and pining for the days of yore, then we speak a different language.

In a perfect world, pay cuts and cuts in pension benefits could be reversed with no pain for those involved. But we don't live in a perfect world, and the reality facing UA employees is that they can either work for less pay and benefits, or they can quit. Period. To engage in a work action that will only result in the elimination of all UA jobs is nothing more than an immature temper tantrum.

My brother is a DL pilot. He just took a hefty pay cut. He isn't happy about it, but he recognizes it is necessary if DL is to remain competitive. He isn't running around the company advocating wildcat job actions, because at the end of the day, he realizes that receipt of part of a previously generous pay check is better than no pay check at all.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
CTHEWORLD
Posts: 463
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 5:27 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:41 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 39):
But exclusivity has not expired - it has just been extended once again. Yet again.

Because there have been no challenges, not even talk of it. The AFA or anyone else can argue against the grant of exclusivity with the courts, but they haven't, presumably because they have nothing.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 39):
If accepting massive pay cuts and facing a loss of half the pension is stonewalling and pining for the days of yore, then we speak a different language.

Well, I guess we do then, because as of today (and numerous threats in the past), they have said they aren't going to take it, so they will destroy it.
 
jc2354
Posts: 609
Joined: Sat May 01, 2004 9:56 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:53 am

You work at a company for 15 years. You have good pay, good benefits, a pension plan. Suddenly there is a unexpected downturn, be it environmental, economical, and/or bad management. You take paycut after paycut to attempt to save your job and your employer. Meanwhile, the executive suite has a revolving door installed, and each new entrant is paid more than the previous for their "skills". Your company then announces it is changing your pension plan, which will result in its elimination or payout.

It gets to the point where the employees have nothing else to give back, yet, the executive suite has new bathrooms with gold fixtures.

What would you do?

It seems that no one realizes one important thing, and maybe it has already been mentioned, but I haven't seen it. What is going on with the UA pensions
could very well affect your own retirement. US did away with their pensions. Yes, it is better to have 1/2 pension than no pension. It's time to look at your own situation. Do you have a pension? How secure is it? This goes far beyond unhappy United workers. The actions they take today, could possibly affect your future when you retire. If UA and US are permitted to change/alter/discontinue pensions, then rest assured that others (IBM, GM, Boeing, etc.) will all follow suit.

They are battling not only their future, but the future of all of us.
If not now, then when?
 
hoya
Topic Author
Posts: 547
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:25 pm

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:54 am

Just found a new article about the AFA CHAOS strikes. AFA now says that they may begin their strike anytime, possibly even today. Key quote:

“CHAOS strikes may now begin at any time,” the union said, in a message posted this afternoon on its Web site. CHAOS stands for create havoc around our system and could entail flight attendants targeting certain flights or locations.
Though the message didn’t specify where or when such moves may occur, “any CHAOS strikes will be carefully targeted to maximize our impact and minimize the risks.”

Union spokeswoman Sara Nelson Dela Cruz said action by the union could take many forms.

"We could choose to strike a flight in remote location, or we could strike all of O'Hare for an afternoon," she said.


More here: http://chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/news.pl?id=16979

Edit: Forgot to add, the PBGC has assumed the pensions.

[Edited 2005-06-30 23:01:03]
Hoya Saxa!!
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:00 am

Jc-like I have said, there are plenty of things United can do outside of going back to the golden goose on the front lines for more sacrifices. I just mentioned isolating aircraft at hubs, like American has with their MD-80's that do not see Miami and the 737-800's that don't see Chicago. United, on the other hand, has every single type of aircraft they own show up at every single one of their hubs, with the exception that the 747-400's do not fly to Denver. That's just one example. I am sure other people can come up with others. Regardless, there are ways to cut costs without pushing your employees over the edge.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
Braniff727
Posts: 656
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 2:25 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:08 am

Quoting Jc2354 (Reply 43):
What is going on with the UA pensions
could very well affect your own retirement.

Actually, very few people have pensions anymore in the US. Almost all industry replaced pensions with plans like 401K (403B for government employees). Yes there are some pensions still out there, but they are rare.
Climbing
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:11 am

Quoting CTHEWORLD (Reply 42):
Because there have been no challenges, not even talk of it.

Sorry - at least two major creditors challenged the last exclusivity extension.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:16 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 41):
But we don't live in a perfect world

No one is suggesting that we do.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 41):
To engage in a work action that will only result in the elimination of all UA jobs is nothing more than an immature temper tantrum.

So you discount the considerable benefits won by strike action since, say, the 19th century?

I seriously doubt that anyone wants to shut United down. I do suggest that perhaps Mr. Tilton and Mr. Brace are not working from tablets of stone handed down from on high.

It is amazing how many companies, when faced with a strike, have reversed "irreversible" decisions.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
galapagapop
Posts: 864
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:15 pm

RE: UA FA's Might Strike Tomorrow(07/01)

Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:32 am

AA was for sure in the black for May and for Q2 most likely. Even with the new oil prices, their loads have gone up, along with their fares. Their costs have stayed steady despite gas prices, but thats because they hedged fuel (ha! and everyone thought they just lost $750 mil). UA either way is in trouble. June and July are big test months for UA to see if there is hope, but these treats are all smoke and no fire.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos