A380 Not An Option For KLM

Glareskin · Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:17 pm

Dutch newspaper De Volkskrant reports this morning about the Lufthansa plans to empasize the First Class travellers. Lufthansa says that 16% of their passengers is business class or first class while these passengers make about 35% of the turnover. Lufthansa aimes for a bigger market-share in the upper-class travellers in order to improve the profits.

Other A380 customers, like SIA, EK and VK think of upgrade the luxury and comfort of business and first class.

Chief of the KLM purchasing dept. Jan Witsenboer says the A380 is not an option for KLM. He says the A380 is cheaper if it's full. KLM wouldn't be able to fill it completely and therefore Boeings 747 is the better option for KLM. KLM doubts if all the A380 customer's plans to install the luxuy will be successful. Witsenboer says that the first 747's also had a bar in the upperdeck, but this option has dissapeared in the years.

rossbaku · Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:25 pm

Quoting Glareskin (Thread starter):
Jan Witsenboer says the A380 is not an option for KLM

That's a real shame. It would have been nice to see an A380 in KLM livery. Anyone got any modified photos of this btw?

Regards,

RossBaku beady

Joost · Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:27 pm

Quoting Glareskin (Thread starter):
Lufthansa says that 16% of their passengers is business class or first class while these passengers make about 35% of the turnover.

That means that the average fare for business and first is only 2.18 times the average economy fare. Seems like cheap.

Leskova · Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:30 pm

Quoting Joost (Reply 2):
That means that the average fare for business and first is only 2.18 times the average economy fare. Seems like cheap.

Nah... it just shows how expensive LH's Economy Class is...

As for KLM and the A380 - did anyone here seriously see KLM as a prime contender for the A380? I didn't - I would have been extremely surprised if KLM actually had said that they're interested in it... just doesn't seem like a plane they'd operate to me.

Regards,
Frank

[Edited 2005-07-05 09:32:20]

Udo · Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:54 pm

Quoting Glareskin (Thread starter):
Jan Witsenboer says the A380 is not an option for KLM. He says the A380 is cheaper if it's full. KLM wouldn't be able to fill it completely and therefore Boeings 747 is the better option for KLM.

No doubt about that. KLM only flies five full-pax B747s, the others are combis.

Regards
Udo

Joost · Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:39 pm

It is still interesting to see what KL will use to replace it's 744M's with in the long run. Even if the 747 Adv launches, a combi option will most likely not be available.

I see more 777-200 ER's being added to the fleet, and more dedicated freighters.

mauriceb · Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:15 pm

I see more 777-200 ER's being added to the fleet, and more dedicated freighters.

by the time KL replaces its 747-400 , i think there will be a new 777-200 version wich is more fuel efficient... think a KL 747 replacement is about 8/9 years off... they are the flagship and KLM can't go without them...

cslusarc · Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:51 pm

Quoting Joost (Reply 5):
I see more 777-200 ER's being added to the fleet, and more dedicated freighters.

Sorry I disagree with the prediction of more 777-200ERs. I think that the 777-200 ER is a bit too small. I think that the 777-300ER would be a better choice. It offers the operator CASM comparable to that of a 747-400. Its a two engine, GE-powered, 350-or-so seat efficient aircraft. Its slightly smaller than the 747-400 and would a bit more versitile for KL. I think that KL will convert the MD-11s into freighers 5-10 years. Following that, the 747-400Ms (and the rest of the 747-400s) will be converted into full freighters within the next 10-15 years or so.

flyAUA · Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:46 pm

Quoting Glareskin (Thread starter):

Thanks for that article. I must admit I did not expect a different outcome. If they don't have enough passengers to justify an A380 on some routes, there really is no point in using it. It's a shame though, it would have looked great in KLM colours Sad

FlySSC · Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:48 pm

As a result of the merger with AF, the KLM Freight activity will soon be seperated from the PAX activity, like AF did already a few years ago. Therefor, KLM's B747-Combi should be converted into all PAX a/c or more likely into All Cargo.

And we should see more B772ER and maybe B773ER should replace those B744, but not the A380.

Then AF-Cargo & KLM-Cargo will be probably the first activities to be completely merged into a real single company, with a single name.

RedDragon · Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:55 pm

Quoting Cslusarc (Reply 7):
Sorry I disagree with the prediction of more 777-200ERs. I think that the 777-200 ER is a bit too small. I think that the 777-300ER would be a better choice. It offers the operator CASM comparable to that of a 747-400.

Comparable to a full-passenger 744 perhaps, but the point is that the majority of KLM's 744s are combis, with significantly lower capacities. The 773ER would be a big step up from KLM's current 744M configuration of under 280 seats.

Rich

dutchjet · Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:11 pm

Intersting, many assumed that the A380 would end up in the KLM fleet, simply because of the AF connection.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 9):
As a result of the merger with AF, the KLM Freight activity will soon be seperated from the PAX activity, like AF did already a few years ago. Therefor, KLM's B747-Combi should be converted into all PAX a/c or more likely into All Cargo.

And we should see more B772ER and maybe B773ER should replace those B744, but not the A380.

Then AF-Cargo & KLM-Cargo will be probably the first activities to be completely merged into a real single company, with a single name.

I agree, a few months ago I suggested the same conclusion, but was shot down by many other members. I do think that KLM will evenutally move away from its Combi operations (as most other carriers have already done) with more 744Fs in the fleet.......if pax and cargo operations are seperated, then a 772/773ER mix would be ideal for KL's longhaul operations, and remember the 773ER can haul a lot of cargo as well.

What is interesting is that many airlines, including big 744 operators like KL (and BA and the Japenese carriers and CX) are shying away from the A380 due to its size and number of seats......one would have thought that the large 744 operators would have been the first A380 customers, ordering the type in significant numbers. Even LH, AF, SQ and QF have been quite conservative with the committment to the A380, ordering "only" between 10 and 15 airframes each; dont get me wrong, I think that the A380 will be a success and Airbus will get more orders for the type from existing customers and new customers, but the conservative approach being taken by the airlines is remarkable. Would the world carriers prefer something a bit smaller....say the size of the 747Advanced.....Boeing, make a move.

A388 · Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:16 pm

I attended a lecture of KLM Cargo Vice-President (Mr. Wishbrun) at the University of Amsterdam. Mr. Wishbrun indicated KLM will eventually separate passenger services from cargo services completely. KLM will eventually have an all-passenger aircraft fleet and an all-cargo (fullfreighter) aircraft fleet. So my guess is KLM will go for a mix of A332/772ER/773ER/744Advanced for long-haul passenger services and 744ERF/772LRF (or even MD11F) for their long-haul cargo services. It wouldn't surprise me if KLM would convert part of their MD11 fleet to fullfreighters.

A388

Jet-lagged · Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:22 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 11):
one would have thought that the large 744 operators would have been the first A380 customers, ordering the type in significant numbers.

They have the most experience not only just flying the plane, but also finding routes for them and filling them up. So, maybe they means they don't like the downside risk, if they cannot fill enough seats, and prefer to fragment their operations into more frequencies of a bit smaller craft.

dutchjet · Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:25 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 12):
I attended a lecture of KLM Cargo Vice-President (Mr. Wishbrun) at the University of Amsterdam. Mr. Wishbrun indicated KLM will eventually separate passenger services from cargo services completely. KLM will eventually have an all-passenger aircraft fleet and an all-cargo (fullfreighter) aircraft fleet. So my guess is KLM will go for a mix of A332/772ER/773ER/744Advanced for long-haul passenger services and 744ERF/772LRF (or even MD11F) for their long-haul cargo services. It wouldn't surprise me if KLM would convert part of their MD11 fleet to fullfreighters.

A388

Thanks for the info......I too would not be surprised to see all or part of the MD11 fleet being converted to freighters, a 744F/MD11F mix for cargo makes sense and would require only a modest investment.....KL has the MD11s and the 744Combis would be easy to convert to full freighters.

On the pax side, I see a KL A332/772ER/773ER longhaul fleet......with some all pax 744s staying in the fleet for high demand routes - guess what, thats the same longhaul fleet that AF will be flying the future (less the A380s, of course). That works out well!

keno · Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:30 pm

KLM might not get one for themselves, but AMS will be getting their first scheduled A380 service from Malaysia Airlines in 2007 or early 2008.

Planesmart · Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:38 pm

Quoting Joost (Reply 2):
That means that the average fare for business and first is only 2.18 times the average economy fare. Seems like cheap.

Upgrades, FF and staff takes their toll. Some airlines like Singapore, BA & Emirates do much better. US-based airlines domestically generate less than 1.0 and internationally (excluding Hawaii & Alaska) struggle to achieve 1.4-1.5

Then factor in the sqm occupied by first and business class, and extra costs (food, service, facilities), for some airlines, upmarket certainly doesn't equal greater profits.

mauriceb · Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:48 pm

KLM might not get one for themselves, but AMS will be getting their first scheduled A380 service from Malaysia Airlines in 2007 or early 2008.

and CZ Smile

HT · Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:02 pm

Taking the current ownership into account, can we really speculate on KL´s fleet plans w/o taking AF´s fleet (and fleet plans) into consideration ?

How possible would it be to see a KL/AF-hybrid livery (on a A380) ?
a/c could be used on flights to CDG and AMS (alternative days) ...

-HT

flyAUA · Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:24 pm

Quoting HT (Reply 18):
How possible would it be to see a KL/AF-hybrid livery (on a A380) ?
a/c could be used on flights to CDG and AMS (alternative days) ...

While I would really like to see this happening, I don't think KLM (as opposed to Air France) has the passengers to fill an A380. Please correct me if I'm wrong...

[Edited 2005-07-05 14:25:14]

KennyK · Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:57 pm

Give KLM time, if passenger numbers continue to increase at the present rate then the A380 may well be an option in several years time.

As for a combi A380, if the upper deck were kept for passenger use only and the A380F freight door were used for the main deck I'm sure a practical aircraft would be available to replace KLMs 747 combis in the future. The main deck could then be configured for freight/passengers as required. One benefit of this configuration is there is no need for the freight loading equipment to have the extra stretch as is required for the A380F top deck.

schipholjfk · Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:02 pm

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 17):
KLM might not get one for themselves, but AMS will be getting their first scheduled A380 service from Malaysia Airlines in 2007 or early 2008.

Why? The few times that I have flown Malaysia out of AMS (744 or 777), the flights have been barely full (about 3/4 full). How ware they planning to fill a A380 between AMS and KUL?

Morvious · Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:43 pm

Quoting Schipholjfk (Reply 21):
Why? The few times that I have flown Malaysia out of AMS (744 or 777), the flights have been barely full (about 3/4 full). How ware they planning to fill a A380 between AMS and KUL?

changing schedules can do the trick.

Its not a big surprise to see this post at all. KLM isn't an A380 customer now, and I beleve it is never.
I think KLM goes with more 777's. 200ER and 300ER versions, and maybe even a good deal for a 777F?
Together with more A330's they will have a nice long haul fleet.
The 747 will be gone when the time is there. Only the remaining 747 ERF's.
My speculations though Wink

.

A388 · Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:43 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 14):
guess what, thats the same longhaul fleet that AF will be flying the future (less the A380s, of course). That works out well!

I agree with you Dutchjet. If KLM will go for a mix of A332/772ER/773ER/744Advanced for their long-haul passenger services and the 744ERF/772LRF/M11F for cargo flights it will be an almost 100% match with Air France's long-haul fleet. It also wouldn't surprise me if Air France will 'combine flights' with KLM on some days/services using the A380. KLM itself might not be able to fill a entire A380 but if they combine flights with Air France, the A380 can definately be used from AMS as well. CDG and AMS are not that far apart, so combining some A380 flights from these two hubs can be an option.

A388

ikramerica · Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:11 am

What a pointless prospect. To justify the overcapacity of the A380 for KLM, the two airlines would combine flights to the point of making life harder on their pax and making things less direct? Is that what the A380 was intended for? I don't think so. It's meant for routes that can use as much capacity as they can get. If KLM does not have such routes, there's no reason for them to "try to make it work."

FlySSC · Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:16 am

I don't see the B747Adv (if ever it is launched) in KLM's fleet.
A PAX a/c fleet similar to AF's is more likely with A332/B772ER/B773ER/B744 + the A380 for AF, as mentionned DutchJet.

As for the Cargo, I don't see either the MD-11 converted into freighters, but just B744F & B772LRF.

dsa · Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:36 am

This is a real surprise, I really wanted to see the A380 in KLM Livery

flyAUA · Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:37 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 25):
I don't see the B747Adv (if ever it is launched) in KLM's fleet.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 24):
Is that what the A380 was intended for? I don't think so.

I feel that both statements are correct. KLM cannot fill a 747, let alone an A380. If I were to take a shot at what I think they will have in the future for their long-haul fleet, I'd say a mix of A330s and B777s. No A380s and no B747s. The current 747 combis will most probably become freighters when the time comes and these will be replaced with newer aircraft.

With no offence intended, I have to raise an eyebrow when it's suggested that an A380 is used with a stop to pick-up passengers together with AF. Indeed it was not why the A380 was built. It was built for those airlines using slot-constrained aerodromes, that already have 747 style aircraft fully booked.

keno · Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:47 am

Quoting Schipholjfk (Reply 21):
Why? The few times that I have flown Malaysia out of AMS (744 or 777), the flights have been barely full (about 3/4 full). How ware they planning to fill a A380 between AMS and KUL?

Well, they have to send those 6x A380 that they ordered somewhere! Wink

. LHR, SYD and AMS are the only 3 cities where MH send their 747s on a daily basis.

YULWinterSkies · Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:58 am

Quoting HT (Reply 18):
How possible would it be to see a KL/AF-hybrid livery (on a A380) ?
a/c could be used on flights to CDG and AMS (alternative days) ...

KLM does not have First Class, whereas AF does. That's one more reason why I do not see this happen.

Quoting Glareskin (Thread starter):
Chief of the KLM purchasing dept. Jan Witsenboer says (...) Boeings 747 is the better option for KLM

So why are you guys speculating about 773ER to replace 747?
scratchchin

jacobin777 · Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:59 am

Quoting KennyK (Reply 20):

As for a combi A380, if the upper deck were kept for passenger use only and the A380F freight door were used for the main deck I'm sure a practical aircraft would be available to replace KLMs 747 combis in the future. The main deck could then be configured for freight/passengers as required. One benefit of this configuration is there is no need for the freight loading equipment to have the extra stretch as is required for the A380F top deck.

I'm not too sure if there is ever going to be more "combi" fleets.....the certification process is expensive, and it certainly won't be done for the United States.

maybe there are going to be a few countries who will allow combis, but I'm not sure if its worth it for the carriers and Airbus to develop/test/build/certify a WhaleJet combi...

just my twocents

ltbewr · Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:09 am

Another issue for KLM as to the A380 (and for other airlines as well) is that they believe they may not have enough demand for such a/c capacity to warrant the purchase of enough units of a entirely new a/c that will be a small part of a fleet. If they purchase 777's or 747's, they would add to others in their (with AF's) fleet already, and already have the parts, support staff, trained mx and so on.

Glareskin · Wed Jul 06, 2005 3:15 am

And this was the picture that goed with the newspaper article. The text: "The interior of one of the first A380 aircraft that rolled out of the Toulouse hangars: pure luxury"

flyAUA · Wed Jul 06, 2005 3:24 am

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 32):

WOW WOW WOW eyepopping

Thanks for that article! They really do look like what they bragged on about in the beginning bigthumbsup

ikramerica · Wed Jul 06, 2005 3:42 am

Remember, anytime you see seats that look like that, it's some design student's fantasy, but it will never make it on a real plane.

What exactly is the point of using all that space for a flying diner? And doesn't it just reinforce the "false" equation F/A=waiter? Wink

Sure is cool looking though.

Jetter2 · Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:09 am

I think the A380 is a waste of money.

From what I can tell, the only liners that will REALLY and TRULY profit from the huge A380 are the massive 744 operators such as JAL,AF, ACA etc.

I think the 744 is far more beautifull than the fat oversized A380 anyways.

jacobin777 · Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:39 am

where is the swimming pool? confused

flyAUA · Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:39 am

Quoting Jetter2 (Reply 35):

Udo... let me take care of this Wink

First of all, if you think you are smarter than the 13 companies that have already purchased the A380, I suggest you start sending them your CV... perhaps those managers need some new recruits. You know, they have no clue what they're doing by ordering the A380 sarcastic

Secondly, the airlines do not care about far more beautiful or all that bullshit. Bottom line is they care about money and profits and quality of service, and that's why they want the A380.

Thirdly, once you have experienced a flight on an A380, I'd love to see you pointing fingers making your "more beautifull than the fat oversized A380" comment while people laugh!

I see you are new here so I will take it easy and give you a few lines of advice. You are entitled to an opinion on here, but when you start making silly remarks like that you will get flamed. At least make sure you have a reasonable argument at hand and that you can back yourself up rather than saying something like "I don't care it's ugly". Also... NEVER start an AvB war. The world goes beyond airbus and boeing.

*sorry peeps, had to let it out relieved

*

Jetter2 · Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:58 am

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 37):
Thirdly, once you have experienced a flight on an A380, I'd love to see you pointing fingers making your "more beautifull than the fat oversized A380" comment while people laugh!

Each person is entilted to their own opinion. Everyone wants to do more, cheaper. If the A380 can do that, more power to them but I still don't like the whale jet. It's fat, and its ugly. Same with the aerfolot planes. Damn those things are ugly. Size of an aircraft dosent impress me, nore does sheer weight or thrust as it does many people.

The 727 is one of the sharpest looking planes I can think of, and its just a lil guy. But just like the DC10, they just are to hungry, and the airlines cant afford to feed them.

flyAUA · Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:09 am

Quoting Jetter2 (Reply 38):
Each person is entilted to their own opinion.

That's fair enough and I respect your opinion. Personally I don't think any airplanes look ugly! But the thing is, after letting us know your opinion, you made the remark that a mere 3 examples need this airplane (somehow linking it to the fact that you think it's ugly) and you KNOW that's non-sense because airlines do not base their decisions on how pretty an aircraft looks... rather on their needs, and how these are met by specific aircraft.

Udo · Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:49 am

Quoting Jetter2 (Reply 35):
I think the A380 is a waste of money.

I'd rather see my money being spent for commercial projects with a real chance than for senseless adventures in the desert... sly

Quoting Jetter2 (Reply 35):
From what I can tell, the only liners that will REALLY and TRULY profit from the huge A380 are the massive 744 operators such as JAL,AF, ACA etc.

AF is far from being among the largest B744 operators. JAL don't seem to be interested at all. And why on earth would Acapulco Airport order an A380? scared

Quoting Jetter2 (Reply 35):
I think the 744 is far more beautifull than the fat oversized A380 anyways.

And who in the business really cares about the looks of an aircraft?

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 37):
Udo... let me take care of this

Just couldn't resist to jump in... biggrin

Quoting Jetter2 (Reply 38):
It's fat, and its ugly. Same with the aerfolot planes. Damn those things are ugly.

First of all, what exactly is "aerfolot"? Southern Texas fire brigade? hot

And just in case you mean Aeroflot - which planes are you talking about? B777s, B767s, A321, A320 or A319? silly

Regards
Udo

flyAUA · Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:54 am

Quoting Udo (Reply 40):
Just couldn't resist to jump in...

I knew you'd never let me down Big grin

Indeed you have even better arguments than mine. You never cease to amaze me Wink

KLM685 · Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:09 am

Quoting Udo (Reply 40):
And why on earth would Acapulco Airport order an A380?

OMG!!! Why did someone never told me about Acapulco being a mass 744 operator? I would like to go there and take pictures of that!

Acapulco ordering a A380...that must be interesting to see as well.

Going back to the subject. I really don't think KLM is in the need of having an A380, although they want to have the upper deck with passengers, and lower deck with cargo and make this huge A380 Combi Big grin

KLM is a great airline with a big market and a big net, but personally don't think the A380 suits them. They have only a few 744 full pax, so that tells how an A380 would not be profitable.

TheRedBaron · Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:34 am

KLM flight from AMS to MEX is always booked to the flaps!!!

I wonder If the LH and the AF orders of the 380 have something to do with this. I am sure one of those operators will fly the 380 sooner or later to MEX, mayb ethey want to see if there is enough demand for the capacity..
Any of A. Net wizards know the exact load of AMs/mex flights by KLM ?

Best regards

TRB

mauriceb · Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:39 am

think that KL is actually right on this one, i mean they only have 5 full pax 747's , and since combi's aren't alloud to be build anymore there is a very slight chance we will see the beautiful whale in the KL colours...

unless there come's a combi version Wink

redflyer · Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:51 am

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 37):
NEVER start an AvB war. The world goes beyond airbus and boeing.

I have to disagree with you on that one FlyAUA - the world IS Airbus and Boeing. Isn't that why we get up in the mornings and log on to A.net???

Quoting Udo (Reply 40):
I'd rather see my money being spent for commercial projects with a real chance than for senseless adventures in the desert...

Udo, your political swipes are getting a little tiresome. I notice in many threads you enjoy taking a unilateral swipe at U.S. policies. If you wear your politics on your sleeve then I can recommend several non-aviation sites to go to and regurgitate at will your political bile. Or, alternatively, I could remind you how...ah, never mind.

Best regards,

A388 · Wed Jul 06, 2005 9:00 am

Let's stay on-topic here. I've seen a few good remarks in this thread. As for my idea of KLM and Air France combining flights, it was only a suggestion. There may not be any truth in that, I was just giving a wild idea, maybe too wild it appears.... Big grin

In any way, I hope to see the A380 once it enters commercial service. Hopefully I'll fly in one too.

A388 angel

MD-90 · Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:45 am

FlyAUA, you're very new here too, buddy...

redflyer · Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:29 am

Quoting A388 (Reply 46):
Let's stay on-topic here. I've seen a few good remarks in this thread. As for my idea of KLM and Air France combining flights, it was only a suggestion.

Agreed, it was a good suggestion. But I wonder why AF feels it can utilize the 380 while KL can't. If anything, I would have thought KL has more robust routes than AF does. Indeed, when AF ordered the 380 I thought KL could not be far behind. To hear them say they have no use for it is a little surprising.

KLM685 · Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:10 pm

Quoting Theredbaron (Reply 43):
Any of A. Net wizards know the exact load of AMs/mex flights by KLM ?

I'll look the number for you tomorrow

Cheers

Alonsou

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