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N62NA
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Is KL Next With BBJ Premium Service?

Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:38 am

In another thread, somebody mentioned, "soon to be added BBJ premium service on KL" while discussing CO ops between AMS and EWR/IAH.

Is KL going to follow in the PrivatAir/LH/LX footsteps and introduce this kind of service between EWR and AMS?
 
PH-BFA
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RE: Is KL Next With BBJ Premium Service?

Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:55 am

there was a thread about this a while ago, don't know the status of this plan. Anyone else with more info?

PH-BFA
 
luv2fly
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RE: Is KL Next With BBJ Premium Service?

Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:59 am

Quoting N62NA (Thread starter):
In another thread, somebody mentioned, "soon to be added BBJ premium service on KL" while discussing CO ops between AMS and EWR/IAH.

Is KL going to follow in the PrivatAir/LH/LX footsteps and introduce this kind of service between EWR and AMS?

PrivatAir is the carrier that flies the LH and LX flights for those carriers. I really do not see KL jumping into this limited market. Though who knows I could be wrong.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
1MillionFlyer
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RE: Is KL Next With BBJ Premium Service?

Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:02 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 2):
PrivatAir is the carrier that flies the LH and LX flights for those carriers. I really do not see KL jumping into this limited market. Though who knows I could be wrong.

I think N62NA knows that, the point is LH and LX sell this as their inventory.

LH is also a business partner with NetJets this has been going on for 3 months, you can buy a ticket on LH and transfer to a Net Jets flight on the same ticket. This is called Lufthansa Private Air

http://www.avweb.com/bizav/11_11/news/189349-1.html

Apparently there is more demand that you realize.

"The new service is a partnership with U.S.-based NetJets and its European operation to provide private jets from more than 1,000 airports around Europe to Lufthansa’s Munich hub to board connecting flights there in first or business class to destinations around the globe. Similarly, passengers arriving in Munich can take a NetJets plane to their final destination. The new service goes into effect March 29."

I posted this back in March and no one paid attention to it.

[Edited 2005-07-09 04:06:20]

[Edited 2005-07-09 04:07:07]
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N62NA
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RE: Is KL Next With BBJ Premium Service?

Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:50 am

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 3):
I think N62NA knows that, the point is LH and LX sell this as their inventory.

Correct. I would imagine KL would go the PrivatAir route. Anybody here work for KL (or AF) and can shed some light on this.

Again, I'm only posting this here as somebody mentioned this in a topic re: AA's International expansion and I didn't want to hijack that thread with this topic.
 
Mdutch
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RE: Is KL Next With BBJ Premium Service?

Sat Jul 09, 2005 5:17 pm

KLM announced may 13th they intend to start an AMS-IAH route using PrivatAir starting this fall. If succesfull they are also thinking about New York, Chicago and Detroit. There was an article about it on Luchtvaartnieuws.nl but that's in dutch.
http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?id=8472
 
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N62NA
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RE: Is KL Next With BBJ Premium Service?

Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:57 pm

Thanks for the link, Mdutch. I pasted it into dictionary.com's translator and was able to pretty much get the entire meaning.
 
mauriceb
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RE: Is KL Next With BBJ Premium Service?

Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:02 pm

they will use 737-700's....
 
1MillionFlyer
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RE: Is KL Next With BBJ Premium Service?

Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:36 pm

Quoting Mauriceb (Reply 7):
they will use 737-700's....

Not without some extra fuel tanks installed
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FLY777UAL
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RE: Is KL Next With BBJ Premium Service?

Sun Jul 10, 2005 7:44 am

Has anyone thought of other markets besides Europe to the United States? What about Miami to deep South America, intra-Asia, Europe-Middle East/India, even Europe-Africa?

I realize that AF has their A319LR flights to oil destinations, but they are not nearly as opulently configured as the A319's and BBJ's which ply the skies between the US and Europe.

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
1MillionFlyer
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RE: Is KL Next With BBJ Premium Service?

Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:28 am

Quoting Mdutch (Reply 5):
KLM announced may 13th they intend to start an AMS-IAH route using PrivatAir

Will that flight be known as the Royal Dutch Shell express?
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PH-TVH
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RE: Is KL Next With BBJ Premium Service?

Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:33 am

Nope they will use -900`s.....
KL does not have -700`s  Wink
 
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drerx7
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RE: Is KL Next With BBJ Premium Service?

Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:40 am

Quoting Mauriceb (Reply 7):
they will use 737-700's....



Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 8):
Not without some extra fuel tanks installed

They will be BBJs not 737-700s
HOUSTON, TEXAS
 
mauriceb
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RE: Is KL Next With BBJ Premium Service?

Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:44 am

They will be BBJs not 737-700s

wich is based on 700's...


Nope they will use -900`s.....
KL does not have -700`s


like if the 900's can make that trip.... anyway private air will fly the route
 
1MillionFlyer
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RE: Is KL Next With BBJ Premium Service?

Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:08 am

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 13):
They will be BBJs not 737-700s

wich is based on 700's...


Nope they will use -900`s.....
KL does not have -700`s

like if the 900's can make that trip.... anyway private air will fly the route

PrivatAit operates BB2s
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mauriceb
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RE: Is KL Next With BBJ Premium Service?

Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:10 am

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 14):
Quoting MauriceB (Reply 13):
They will be BBJs not 737-700s

wich is based on 700's...


Nope they will use -900`s.....
KL does not have -700`s

like if the 900's can make that trip.... anyway private air will fly the route

PrivatAit operates BB2s

keep youre sources up to date :
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FLY777UAL
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RE: Is KL Next With BBJ Premium Service?

Sun Jul 10, 2005 10:07 am

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 15):
keep youre sources up to date :

funny comment you should make...


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Photo © José Geraldes



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LJ
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RE: Is KL Next With BBJ Premium Service?

Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:01 pm

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 10):
Will that flight be known as the Royal Dutch Shell express?

Royal Dutch Shell will move their corporate HQ from The Hague to London thus no Royal Dutch Shell Express (and even if they remained in The Netherlands they would prefer a service to Rotterdam). However you can call it an oil express as they probably want to get the pax onto the LOS flight.

Quoting FLY777UAL (Reply 9):
Has anyone thought of other markets besides Europe to the United States? What about Miami to deep South America, intra-Asia, Europe-Middle East/India, even Europe-Africa?

AF already operates an A319 in special configuration to Africa and if I'm correct the Middle East (BTW it's not an A319CJ, but just an ordinary A319 with less seats). QR also has some A319CJ flights.
 
FLY777UAL
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RE: Is KL Next With BBJ Premium Service?

Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:12 am

Quoting LJ (Reply 17):
Quoting FLY777UAL (Reply 9):
Has anyone thought of other markets besides Europe to the United States? What about Miami to deep South America, intra-Asia, Europe-Middle East/India, even Europe-Africa?

AF already operates an A319 in special configuration to Africa and if I'm correct the Middle East (BTW it's not an A319CJ, but just an ordinary A319 with less seats). QR also has some A319CJ flights.

...which is why I also posted below the part you quoted, "I realize that AF has their A319LR flights to oil destinations, but they are not nearly as opulently configured as the A319's and BBJ's which ply the skies between the US and Europe."

Furthermore, they are using A319ER and leased A319LR aircraft.

http://www.airfrance.com/double6/fil...Udedicate-v2/$file/dedicate-v2.pdf

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L

[Edited 2005-07-10 21:18:00]
 
dutchjet
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RE: Is KL Next With BBJ Premium Service?

Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:23 am

The KL Premium Service flights (which will be operated by Privatair with BBJ2s according to what I heard) will be interesting to watch; as pointed out, the first route will be AMS-IAH and the second route that is being talked about is AMS-JFK......up to 5 routes with 5 BBJs are proposed all to US cities.

KL is using a different approach than LH - the LH/Privatair flights operate on select routes where LH does not offer its own service, the Privatair flight allows premium pax a nonstop flight where no other LH service is available, ie, keep the premium pax happy, the others can connect via one of our hubs. KL is using Privatair on routes that KL already flies - its simply adding additional premium seats on existing routes.

It will be interesting to watch pax reaction - which would your prefer, KL World Business Class on a 744 or 777 or a seat on the BBJ flight? Which will pax like better? No word yet on pricing, will seats on the Privatair cost the same as a World Business Class ticket?

I am not certain this is all going to work out - time will tell.
 
FLY777UAL
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RE: Is KL Next With BBJ Premium Service?

Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 19):
KL is using Privatair on routes that KL already flies - its simply adding additional premium seats on existing routes.

Do you think there could be a possibility in the future where premium pax. to some high-density cities are moved onlyby BBJ and certain aircraft are reconfigured to hold only Economy passengers?

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
Joost
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RE: Is KL Next With BBJ Premium Service?

Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:48 am

Quoting FLY777UAL (Reply 20):
Do you think there could be a possibility in the future where premium pax. to some high-density cities are moved onlyby BBJ and certain aircraft are reconfigured to hold only Economy passengers?

Well, there are already widebody aircraft who are only to mostly aimed at economy passengers: the long-haul charter companies, like Martinair, LTU. Okay, they offer a kind of premium class but it is far from the level offered by the business class of the likes of BA, AF, LH, KL, SK, etc. But this is only for holiday destinations, that are mostly relying on O&D.

For the other destinations, I don't think it'll work.

The largest and highest yielding destinations in Europe are hubs at the sime time. Greater Paris/CDG, Greater London/LHR, Greater Frankfurt/FRA, Amsterdam-Randstad/AMS, Munich-Bavaria/MUC. (AMS is often mentioned as a low-yielding destination on the forum. That is only a relative statement. Yields may be higher from LHR, CDG or FRA, but holding a position of no. 4, 5 or 6 Europe-wide is still high-yielding. It's the main (long-haul) airport for executives of Shell, ING, Philips, Unilever, etc.).

A hub in a high-yielding market means that you have both the market for the seats in front of the aircraft, as well as all the economy passengers to fill a plane up to a 767+ size to keep your CASM low. So if you have the hub feed to fill up econ, you will use it. This will work to many destinations, like many US cities. NYC is so big, you can easily find the people to fill up the economy section of the plane.

What we will see instead, is this service to non-hub O&D's. Where there is the small but high-yielding demand for business fares, but not the feed to make a large plane work. RTM in the Netherlands would qualifiy for this for example, as well as cities like STR.

I might be a pessimist, but I manage to see a threat for KLM operations in this move. It could mean that they initiate this kind of BBJ-service for the Dutch high-yielding market, and tunnel all the economy passengers through CDG in the future. I hope that I'm wrong.
 
N77014
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RE: Is KL Next With BBJ Premium Service?

Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:31 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 19):
The KL Premium Service flights (which will be operated by Privatair with BBJ2s according to what I heard) will be interesting to watch; as pointed out, the first route will be AMS-IAH and the second route that is being talked about is AMS-JFK......up to 5 routes with 5 BBJs are proposed all to US cities.

KL is using a different approach than LH - the LH/Privatair flights operate on select routes where LH does not offer its own service, the Privatair flight allows premium pax a nonstop flight where no other LH service is available, ie, keep the premium pax happy, the others can connect via one of our hubs. KL is using Privatair on routes that KL already flies - its simply adding additional premium seats on existing routes.

It will be interesting to watch pax reaction - which would your prefer, KL World Business Class on a 744 or 777 or a seat on the BBJ flight? Which will pax like better? No word yet on pricing, will seats on the Privatair cost the same as a World Business Class ticket?

I am not certain this is all going to work out - time will tell.

It seems it is currently aimed at the US premium business market, and gives recognition to the fact that Houston is an elite business center, despite its outward appearances and reputation (having lived there 5 years, I know).

What will make our break it will be several factors:

*Flight timings. For pax connecting from IAH to say, AUH, KWI, LOS, SVO, etc; the flight should be timed for minimum connect time to shorten the total travel time.

*Expansion. If aiming to increase yields, why not grow the service to key oil destinations, such as continuing to mideast, west african, and central asian destinations? AUH, LOS, EDI, OSL, DFW, and Baku come to mind.

*Dilution of yields could be an issue for KL mainline flights; assuming KL thinks this will enhance and grow their share of the J-class market.

*Crew concerns. Contracting out flying, especially longhaul, could prove unpopular with militant labor groups.
A new life awaits you in the Off-World Colonies...
 
LJ
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RE: Is KL Next With BBJ Premium Service?

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:28 am

Quoting N77014 (Reply 22):
*Crew concerns. Contracting out flying, especially longhaul, could prove unpopular with militant labor groups.

As far as I know the Dutch unions aren't negative of this idea provided that this new business would not mean less full service flights.

Quoting N77014 (Reply 22):
*Expansion. If aiming to increase yields, why not grow the service to key oil destinations, such as continuing to mideast, west african, and central asian destinations? AUH, LOS, EDI, OSL, DFW, and Baku come to mind.

KLM had (or stil has) a plan to use corporate jets (Cessna Citations) for flights between AMS and surrounding airports (like DUS or CGN) and then cancelling mainline service. However, after the initial "idea" nothing has been published and either thus it's unclear what happened to the idea. The idea itself isn't bad as it would mean the low yield pax will have to go to AMS by ground transport and high yield get a premium service while the slots can be used for other flights (the cessna flights would be operated out of Schiphol-East which means they don't fall under the slot coordination at AMS)

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