I was wondering, why has ORD loss so many international airlines in the past few years? Including Aeroflot, Virgin, Singapore, ANA, Kuwait Airways, Korean, & Qantas ORD has lost many international carriers. Is there a fundamental economic problem by operating at ORD? Or does each airline have their own story why they left ORD? I appreciate your response.

There are a couple of reasons. We lost a lot of our carriers - ANA, Singapore Airlines, Virgin Atlantic, Austrian Airlines, and Aeroflot - immediately after 9/11, as everyone contracted their international networks. With international services so profitable these days, I'll admit I'm surprised that we haven't gotten any of those airlines back yet. Supposedly Austrian is re-examining the ORD-VIE route, and we may see them back.

Alliances have both helped and hurt O'Hare... Austrian was able to drop ORD because they knew they could continue feeding passengers on United and Lufthansa, thanks to Star Alliance. The same goes for ANA, who dropped ORD-NRT and let United pick up the slack. However, there's no way in hell we'd have our (extremely successful) bmi flight if it weren't for Star Alliance. The Chicago route has been one of bmi's star performers since the day it started.

It's easy to think back to the summer of 2000, when it seemed like O'Hare had every international airline under the sun (and more on the way - remember the Qantas service that was just about to start before 9/11?) I remember how great it was to sit on the beach and watch the Austrian A330 and Aeroflot 767 come in every day over Lake Michigan.

But for as many airlines as we've lost, we've gotten quite a few too. Air-India, Pakistan International, Cayman Airways, PrivatAir, Aviacsa and now Asiana have all started service since 2001. Depending on which rumor you believe, we're also going to be the next city Emirates serves in North America.

It could always be worse - a lot of US cities, like my hometown of Dallas/Fort Worth, only get the "usual suspects" like British Airways and Lufthansa. We're fortunate to have service from SWISS, Iberia, bmi, Aer Lingus and SAS - their North American routes are pretty limited and most folks would *kill* to see those airlines at their home airport.

All in all I think we're blessed with some great international carriers. How many other cities can claim daily flights to both Warsaw and Krakow?  

Virgin was discontinued shortly after 911. ANA I don't recall ever being here. They were supposed to start, but I think they decided to wait--this might have been a result of 911 too. Korean and Kuwait do operate into/out of ORD.
Singapore and ANA operate freighters to/from ORD. Don't think Qantas operated from ORD, at least within the past 10 years.

Not sure what happened to Aeroflot. I don't think there is any shortage of international carriers at ORD.

Koreans still there, i think virgin left due to post september 11 cuts they have stated they will eventually return and i think ANA is also slated to return as well.

Quoting Jsnww81 (Reply 1): But for as many airlines as we've lost, we've gotten quite a few too. Air-India, Pakistan International, Cayman Airways, PrivatAir, Aviacsa and now Asiana have all started service since 2001. Depending on which rumor you believe, we're also going to be the next city Emirates serves in North America.

Air India has been flying to ORD before 2001. Pakistan restarted services to ORD, PrivatAir is working for Lufthansa, Asian hasn't started services at ORD yet.

Also add AeroMexico and TACA as airlines that have started ops after 2001 at ORD.

Quoting Copter808 (Reply 2): ANA I don't recall ever being here

ANA did fly to ORD, pulled out after 9/11, although they still have their counters at Terminal 5.

ORD can be a difficult place for a foreign carrier that is not aligned with the STAR and OneWorld groups - with AA and UA each having huge operations at Ohare, its difficult to get into the market and establish a route. As pointed out, quite a few carriers quickly dropped ORD after 9/11 - most of these routes were not yet mature and were pulled with the downturn in traffic.

I think, over time, many of the carriers will return. Virgin continues to grow and has many new aircraft on order, I think that they will be back. SQ is also likely to return as, after NYC, LAX and SFO, ORD is the most logic addition in the US to their network, however, if when they do return, I think that it will be with nonstop flights to SIN as the ORD-AMS-SIN routing did not appeal to many pax (regardless of distance, many consider the Europe routing going the wrong way when starting in ORD) and the ORD-AMS leg can be low yeild, OS may or may not come back, a lot depends on how the LH/LX thing works out and how LH develops its MUN hub and new LX ZRH hub, and Qantas, which never did start service to ORD, now seems to be of the opinion that its not really necessary to fly their own aircraft into ORD and that they can stick with the AA code-share. With respect to Aeroflot, I can never figure out exactly what they are doing, but with the 777s leaving the fleet, its unlikely that they will have the longhaul capacity to fly to ORD.

ANA is another story, for now, UA is handling the route, but I think once the airlines decide that additional capacity is needed, ANA will fly the new flight to Tokyo.

And, with EK's expansion plans, ORD must be in their future.

Add AM to the list of international airlines no longer serving ORD. Even though several a.netters have said that AM will serve ORD two or three months a year, I was there in late March and did not see their counters anymore in the international terminal. Moreover, AM's routemaps no longer show ORD as a city served by them.

Notwithstanding the foregoing, AM might come back. There are rumors that AM will fly DGO-ORD soon.

Quoting Jsnww81 (Reply 1): All in all I think we're blessed with some great international carriers. How many other cities can claim daily flights to both Warsaw and Krakow?

There is no daily service to Krakow from United States. LOT does like three weekly flights from ORD and I think two from both JFK and EWR. Those frequencies drop significantly after the summer season (i think EWR-KRK route drops completely for the winter and resumes in the late spring).

In response to Copter808, reply #2:

ANA does not fly freighters to ORD. You might be getting confused with Nippon Cargo Airlines. Although owned partially by NH, it is entirely a seperate company. ANA will eventually return to ORD. Whether it will be in 2006 or 2007 is still undetermined. They might wait until they get the firts of th 787's.

AV8FAN

My God, some of you are picky. "Service isn't daily" and "PrivatAir works for Lufthansa." I'm continually amazed on these forums how much hair-splitting people will do. For a bunch of "enthusiasts" we all seem very eager to cut one another down.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 7): There is no daily service to Krakow from United States. LOT does like three weekly flights from ORD and I think two from both JFK and EWR. Those frequencies drop significantly after the summer season (i think EWR-KRK route drops completely for the winter and resumes in the late spring).

Nonetheless, on some days (I think Thursdays), you can see 3 LOT planes on the same day at ORD. 2 going to Warsaw and 1 going to Krakow....

Korean and Kuwait are still flying into ORD. Korean is a morning arrival and approximately noon departure. Kuwait is an evening arrival and departure though they do not operate every day.

I think Singapore's problem was they went to Singapore the wrong way. They went to Singapore via AMS, adding time to the trip. Had they gone to Singapore via HKG, or NRT like UA does, they might of had a chance at being successful. If I was going to the far East and my choices were Singapore or United, I know who I would pick.

Austrian was flying into ORD as late as last summer. They still have an office here at ORD at M18 if you are looking in from the ramp. I was surprised to see it there when I had to work an RJ down at T5 a few months back.

I am not quite sure why ANA never started service to Chicago. Maybe the two UA flights to NRT, one to KIX, the JAL flights and AA flights are enough to Japan.

Qantas was supposed to start flying into ORD in late 2003. They had adds all over the place for it, but never did because of the war in Iraq and then SARS. John Travolta was supposed to fly the first flight in his 707. It would be AWESOME to see Qantas at ORD every day.

Quoting Copter808 (Reply 2): Korean and Kuwait do operate into/out of ORD.

Correct, KE operates daily ICN-ORD flights on a 772!
But KU doesnt operate to ORD anymore, the flight used to be via GVA!

Rob!  

Quoting B742 (Reply 12): Correct, KE operates daily ICN-ORD flights on a 772! But KU doesnt operate to ORD anymore, the flight used to be via GVA!

I saw a KU plane on Thursday at ORD, so I'm pretty certain that this flight still operates....

[Edited 2005-07-09 20:00:59]

Quoting SLUAviator (Reply 11): Kuwait is an evening arrival and departure though they do not operate every day

Quoting DIA77 (Reply 13): I saw a KU plane on Thursday at ORD, so I'm pretty certain that this flight still operates....

KU wont be operating for long. They are canceling ORD service sometime this summer I believe.

Quoting CHI787ORD (Reply 14): KU wont be operating for long. They are canceling ORD service sometime this summer I believe.

This might be the case, but KU is still showing ORD in their schedules through at least Jan '06. That might not mean much though.

ANA did have service from NRT to ORD. In 1999, I worked at an office in the suburbs just west of ORD. As I pulled into the parking lot, I often saw ANA on the approach to 9R.

I know Korean is still flying to ORD, because I saw one of their aircraft parked at T5 this past July 4th.

Quoting Jsnww81 (Reply 1): Pakistan International

as mentioned above, PK did have prior service to ORD, then ended it for many years..

Now they have 1 flight (2 during 2nd-half of year) from ORD..

PK-794 on Tuesdays and PK-796 on Saturdays...both go ORD-MAN-ISB-KHI, last year however, PK-796 was ORD-MAN-KHI..

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5): With respect to Aeroflot, I can never figure out exactly what they are doing, but with the 777s leaving the fleet, its unlikely that they will have the longhaul capacity to fly to ORD.

Chicago has a large Russian population, I can see SU bringing back some kind of service to ORD via a B767


"About the Russian and Polish Markets in the United States

The majority of Russian-speaking Americans live in 6 markets: New York, NY; LA-Long Beach; Chicago, Philadelphia, San Francisco and Boston/Lawrence/Lowell/Brockton. "

http://www.kanglee.com/newsroom/news_detail.php?nflag=2&news_id=1012

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 6): Add AM to the list of international airlines no longer serving ORD...

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 6): Notwithstanding the foregoing, AM might come back. There are rumors that AM will fly DGO-ORD soon.

Forget that. AM has reinstated MEX-ORD and DGO-ORD is a reality already. Good for them!

Don't forget TK. Turkish flies 4x weekly ORD-IST on an A343.

Also don't forget RJ. Now with nonstop flights to AMM. I flew them once on the SNN-ORD flight when it operated AMM-SNN-ORD-DTW. In fact we made an emergency landing in ORD on that flight. What fun!

They may have lost some airlines since 9/11, but they still have a heck of a lot more now than they did when I worked there 1984-1990. I enjoy an afternoon of spotting there every time I go back to Chicago for a visit.

Does AI serve ORD via FRA or LHR? I have heard both.

AI serves both FRA and LHR from ORD, IIRC

Quoting CHI787ORD (Thread starter): ANA

Quoting SLUAviator (Reply 11): I am not quite sure why ANA never started service to Chicago

Quoting Copter808 (Reply 2): ANA I don't recall ever being here

UHH??? I lived for three years 6 miles away from ORD and I used to see the ANA 747's land almost every day(around 2 pm).Also, the ANC plane.I was there from 2001 till 2004.So they flew there.
Also Korean did.I saw those too.

Mike

TK flies 3x per week to ORD. They have just started with extra flights to JFK, due to the increasing demand, I think once weekly, making in total 8 flights per week IST-JFK. ORD must be not very profitable for TK, as they push JFK obviously.
Serdar

I for one, would really love to see SQ return to ORD. Hopefully with SIN-ORD-SIN non-stop on their A345's.

A345 should have the range for it. It will be a nice comfortable flight in those. How bout 773-ER with GE90's on order for SQ? Can they do this route to ORD too? Will they need the 772-LR?

Come back to ORD, SQ! I will be one of the first to sign up on it.

I'm surprised SQ is not at ORD....I was going to suggest, does congestion have anything to do with the departure of airlines from ORD? Because as we all know, ORD is one of the most congested airports on the planet right now...

Quoting Thrust (Reply 27): I'm surprised SQ is not at ORD....

I've always been suprised that VS is not at ORD.

Quoting CHI787ORD (Reply 28): I've always been suprised that VS is not at ORD.

VS is at an inherent disadvantage to the lack of feed (BA does have some feed at ORD despite the AA/BA antitrust situation, mostly pax purchasing BA tix ex-Europe and both AA and BA get feed on both ends) and the presumed inability to match AA's 5 dailies and UA's 3 dailies. They've got to make up for that with service and advertising, but it's still quite a hole to dig oneself out of.

Anyone who thinks ORD is disadvantaged when it comes to international carriers has obviously not been there recently. Other than airports like LHR and JFK (and perhaps LAX), ORD is looking pretty good.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 30): Anyone who thinks ORD is disadvantaged when it comes to international carriers has obviously not been there recently.

No one said it was disadvantaged, you can get to pretty much anywhere from ORD. however in 2000-2001 ORD's terminal 5 was like the United Nations of terminals.

well if VS would join Star since its partially owned by SQ UA would give it feed automatically at ORD, i think branson said they will eventually return

RG used to fly into ORD with DC-10s back in the early 90s. I remember them often lining up on 14R arrival early in the morning on the way to school.

If SQ doesn't re-start service to the Southeast Asia, how about TG. SQ is a member of Star Alliance but UA really doesn't codeshare with them. UA does a bit more codesharing with TG. Though TG has not mentioned Chicago in their future plans to the US.

Quoting Thrust (Reply 27): I was going to suggest, does congestion have anything to do with the departure of airlines from ORD?

I can't say for sure if the chronic congestion/delays would give an airline reason to leave unless, of course, delays into/out of ORD cause problems throughout the rest of its network, which, if it did, would mean the carrier was a lightweight. However, I can tell you as a flyer with many, many years and miles under my belt, I avoid ORD like the plague because of its chronic congestion/delays. Besides, it's not one of the prettier nor convenient (from an amenities standpoint) international hubs to fly through. I'm sure if there's enough business flyers like me who feel the same way then that might be an additional reason (though not the only one) to discontinue service.

Quoting GEnxPower (Reply 26): I for one, would really love to see SQ return to ORD. Hopefully with SIN-ORD-SIN non-stop on their A345's.

I don't think the business case is there right now..its more convenient to feed pax on Star Alliance UA/US....maybe if they get the -200LR and get better loads/yields then possibly, but I wouldn't count on it for now...

Quoting CHI787ORD (Reply 28): I've always been suprised that VS is not at ORD.

they used to be at ORD...in fact, I've flown ORD-LHR-ORD on VS back in June/July 2001...their service was horrific (others on A.net have actually agreed with me) and they were using an old B742 with an occasional A343..

they ended their route right after 9/11

also, there stiff competition there with AA/BA/UA.......VS would have to do a twice daily flight to get some traction....



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Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 35): they used to be at ORD...in fact, I've flown ORD-LHR-ORD on VS back in June/July 2001...their service was horrific (others on A.net have actually agreed with me) and they were using an old B742 with an occasional A343..

Oh man were they HORRIBLE! I flew ORD - LHR in June 2001 as well, and it was the worst flight of any airline at any time in my life. However, I too am kind of surprised they haven't pushed back into ORD.

I would love to see this problem at DFW!

ORD is doing very well with international traffic. While foreign carriers have left the city, AA and UA continue to expand as do other OneWorld / Star carriers. Years ago, TW and BA flew ORD - LHR 5 x weekly. Today, there are 11 x per day (this doesn't include AI). LH, BA, SK, LO, and JL have multiple flights per day. UA serves HKG 10 x per week, PVG, BJS, GRU, and EZE (seasonally).

I would expect SQ and TG to someday serve ORD via UA. Who knows, NZ may add service due to the Star connections at ORD. I also expect QF to someday start ORD service (787 or 777LR to SYD or MEL would be sweet). VS is interestd in returning to ORD, but I don't see this unless they join Star. CX is also a potential candidate, but AA plans ORD-HKG in the future, but with their current 777 plans, they will not have the metal to fly this. CX could add some nonstops and direct through YVR.

Also, there could be increased traffic to Europe (especially eastern Europe). OS / UA are looking at ORD-VIE (as mentioned in this thread). Kiev and Belgrade would be natural fits due to the large native populations in Chicago. Prague is also a possibility in the future.

India hasn't been mentioned yet (although there is the AA ORDDEL thread out there). Who knows who will enter this market.

I enjoy traveling through ORD, especially this year since there have been minimal weather delays!

Quoting SW733 (Reply 36): Oh man were they HORRIBLE! I flew ORD - LHR in June 2001 as well, and it was the worst flight of any airline at any time in my life. However, I too am kind of surprised they haven't pushed back into ORD.

lol..thats's too funny...one of my flights had a large group of highschoolers....and our plane from LHR was delayed by over an hour..and yikes...the bloody plane almost hit the runway fence upon takeoff..in fact, I had my "emergency exit" plan as I seriously thought we would hit the fence at LHR.....

oddly enough, the Captain apologised to the pax stating that it was the 1st officer's "first flight"..I assume the first time he was flying with a set of pax on board....

anway, their service stunk, the F/A's were beyond rude and their checkin was dismal...

I can see why they pulled out.....

now in all fairness..I flew them from JFK-LHR-JFK back in summer of 1999..and I was well impressed, and thats why I decided to try them again..but I'm not so sure about it, especially since I have hundreds of thousands of miles on AA and tens of thousands of miles on BA....I'm going to stick with them   

Quoting Copter808 (Reply 2): Virgin was discontinued shortly after 911. ANA I don't recall ever being here.

Ummm, they were here, on a daily basis with 744s.

Quoting CHI787ORD (Thread starter): was wondering, why has ORD loss so many international airlines in the past few years? Including Aeroflot, Virgin, Singapore, ANA, Kuwait Airways, Korean, & Qantas

Kuwait flies here still, and so does Korean, which upgrades from the 772 to 773 and 744 aircraft during peak season.

Quoting B742 (Reply 12): But KU doesnt operate to ORD anymore, the flight used to be via GVA!

Yes they do. Stop giving out false info. This is from today:

Seoul Korean Air 37 05:53 AM Landed
Seoul Korean Air 37 10:32 AM Arrived
Anchorage, AK Korean Air 231 10:55 PM In Flight
Geneva Kuwait Airways 127 06:03 PM Arrived
Guatemala City LACSA Costarricenses 682 01:10 AM Scheduled
Warsaw Lot - Polish Airlines 3 01:36 PM Landed
Warsaw Lot - Polish Airlines 1 03:02 PM Arrived
Warsaw Lot - Polish Airlines 3 07:49 PM Arrived

Quoting SLUAviator (Reply 11): I am not quite sure why ANA never started service to Chicago. Maybe the two UA flights to NRT, one to KIX, the JAL flights and AA flights are enough to Japan.

ANA did fly to Chicago, 747-400 service.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 18): Notwithstanding the foregoing, AM might come back. There are rumors that AM will fly DGO-ORD soon.

Considering that AM is here 2x daily...

Quoting Thrust (Reply 27): I'm surprised SQ is not at ORD....I was going to suggest, does congestion have anything to do with the departure of airlines from ORD? Because as we all know, ORD is one of the most congested airports on the planet right now...

This had nothing to do with congestion but the SIN-AMS-ORD route was producing almost no traffic...with ORD-AMS being dead.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 29): VS is at an inherent disadvantage to the lack of feed (BA does have some feed at ORD despite the AA/BA antitrust situation, mostly pax purchasing BA tix ex-Europe and both AA and BA get feed on both ends) and the presumed inability to match AA's 5 dailies and UA's 3 dailies

Seriously speaking, BA has more than "Some" feed at Ohare. For gods sake ORD is a OneWorld fortress (That is true for STAR too)

Quoting CHI787ORD (Reply 31): however in 2000-2001 ORD's terminal 5 was like the United Nations of terminals.

Lets take 2001 for example pre-911. And then airlines for 2004-2005 that it gained. And this is excluding cargo airlines.

What airlines did ORD have that they lost 2001:

ANA
Austrian
Virgin Atlantic
Aeroflot

And thats it because SIA came 2 years after.

Whats new for the last 2 years?

TACA
Aviacsa
Pakistan International
PrivatAir
El Al Israel (No more North American codeshare but own planes)
Lacsa

Thats definately a net gain not a net loss folks.

Seriously, some of us here need to check up on our facts before spouting out useless crap about whether they think that carriers flew here or not....that "ANA never flew here" was damned ridiculous, if your brain was attached to your eyes before 2001 and you lived anywhere within 20 miles of ORD you would have seen them.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 39): Pakistan International

PK used to fly to ORD a number of years ago, then restarted again just a few years ago, so I'm not sure if it can be considered "new service" in a technical sense, but yes, they are back...  

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 39): Seriously speaking, BA has more than "Some" feed at Ohare. For gods sake ORD is a OneWorld fortress (That is true for STAR too)

thats an understatement. between AA's 4 daily 777's and BA's 777's/747's..(throw in a couple of UA flights) and I see it VERY difficult for anyone to break into that route........

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 39): Kuwait flies here still, and so does Korean, which upgrades from the 772 to 773 and 744 aircraft during peak season.

Kuwait service to O'Hare ends in October.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 39): Considering that AM is here 2x daily...

Try 2x weekly MD80 service to MEX, and new 2x weekly seasonal (July and August only) service to Durango. So a total of 4 weekly flights.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 39): And thats it because SIA came 2 years after.

No they didn't. SIA started Chicago 2 August 2001. They then suspended service in late 2001, resumed it in 2002, and discontinued it again.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 39): TACA Aviacsa Pakistan International PrivatAir El Al Israel (No more North American codeshare but own planes) Lacsa

TACA and LACSA are the same exact airline interchanging equipment on the same ORD-GUA-SJO service.

El Al served ORD before 9.11. After 9.11, they downgraded to North American, then brought back LY service.

PrivatAir does not fly their own services to O'Hare. They have a wet-lease agreement with Lufthansa, whose Privatair-operated ORD-DUS service replaced UA's 763 service on the same route. So let's redo that list:

Aviacsa
PIA
TACA/LACSA

Also, Qantas announced ORD twice in 2002 and 2003, and canceled it, twice.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 39): Seriously, some of us here need to check up on our facts before spouting out useless crap about whether they think that carriers flew here or no

I guess you should check your facts as well before blasting others.

AF & AZ do quite well at ORD (recent AF return to CDG had 291 passengers on the flight). AM is a different story, but they don't want to give up the slot to a LCC (Aviasca and others would kill for this route, but AM and MX both operating this preventing another carrier from entering the ORD-MEX market - limit to two carriers per country).

Quoting NomoreRJs (Reply 42): AF & AZ do quite well at ORD (recent AF return to CDG had 291 passengers on the flight).

I happen to know for a fact that Alitalia's O'Hare station performs moderately at best. Strong during the summer, but very weak during the winter. It is their weakest performing US station.

Sorry, forgot the seasonality thing. FCO would be better in winter (AA is idle).

Quoting NomoreRJs (Reply 44): Sorry, forgot the seasonality thing. FCO would be better in winter (AA is idle).

Milan is Alitalia's main hub, and Italy's financial center. Traffic to Milan is much less seasonal than Rome, with stronger business traffic and yields. Traffic to Rome is very, very seasonal. If there was a market, AA would fly to Rome in the winter, but the market is very small.

Chicago is dominated by oneWorld and Star Alliance, which is why Alitalia doesn't do so hot in O'Hare. Air France does fine, but nothing outstanding. There is clearly a larger market between Chicago and Italy, but the local travelers rather get there earning or redeeming miles with Lufthansa or AA.

[Edited 2005-07-12 04:45:56]

[edited for brain fart]

[Edited 2005-07-12 04:45:59]

Yes, Alitalia does operate a daily 767 on the ORD - MXP route. And yes, KLM does operate a daily 747-200 on the ORD - AMS route. At least, I believe I am right on those.

I miss Aeroflot in Chicago. I miss driving down the highway past T5 at ORD and seeing all the foreign planes, and I've always been amazed when I see the airlines from exotic places (not just London or Paris or Frankfut, but Istanbul, Moscow, Tel Aviv, Bombay, and the like). It's still fun, and now I am old enough to GO to those places!  

Quoting Redflyer (Reply 34): Besides, it's not one of the prettier nor convenient (from an amenities standpoint) international hubs to fly through.

Visit Terminal 1 or 5 sometime Redflyer.

Quoting CHI787ORD (Reply 48): Visit Terminal 1 or 5 sometime Redflyer.

Well, I have. And perhaps I should have re-worded my phrase to emphasis that it is NOT ugly or useless; just that I've seen better. But please don't take offense: my only REAL complaint about ORD is the unbelievably predictable delays. They are so bad I will go out of my way at great trouble and expense to avoid flying there.