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toltommy
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NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:52 am

Okay, the clock should start soon....

http://biz.yahoo.com/bizj/050712/1132233.html?.v=1

"Northwest Airlines Corp. is following the lead of its mechanics union, asking the National Mediation Board on Monday to declare an impasse in contract negotiations, according to media reports."

Actually, NW asked first.... but hey, should be intersting to watch!
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toltommy
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:53 am

oh so close, everyone's posting it now....
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Squid
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:07 am

In my opinion, replacing all the mechanics at NWA with outside contractors is the best thing for them and all airlines, in the long run. I think in the not-to-distant future airlines will outsourse the majority of their work from reservations and catering to mechanics and cleaners. The only airline employee's that will actually be employeed by the airlines will be non-union pilots, flight attendants, and gate/ticket agents. This will dramatically lower their costs and increase productivity. Good luck NWA, may your example lead the way.

[Edited 2005-07-13 02:08:14]
 
toltommy
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:08 am

I never understood why the airlines in general eliminated travel agent commissions instead of eliminating 90% of the res agents. Travel agents worked for a fixed commission. If they didn't produce, they didn't earn. OTOH, the res agent got paid the same hourly rate plus benefits if they sold $49 saver saver fares, or a full Y ticket. But I agree with you. Small city flying has been outsourced to regionals, the mechs can certainly be replaced with quality outsourcing as well. There are plenty of furloughed AMFA mechanics who would love to start their own businesses and serve the same people that they used to work for.
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Fleet Service
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:39 pm

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 3):
Small city flying has been outsourced to regionals, the mechs can certainly be replaced with quality outsourcing as well.

Like the "Quality Outsourcing" on that USAirways Express plane that crashed into one of the UAIR hangars in CLT about a year and a half or so ago?

That "Quality Outsourcing" improperly rigged cables that killed everyone on that aircraft.

I love armchair CEO's who are all about outsourcing this, that and the other thing in an industry they don't actually work in.

What do you fellas do for a living? Many American companies are sending work offshore, not just the airlines.

Maybe we can "dramatically lower costs and increase productivity" in your field as well...
Yes, I actually *do* work for an airline,how about you?
 
uadc8contrail
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:43 pm

Fleet service,
you hit it squarely on the head, the usair exp incident reminds me of the valuejet crash in fla....out sourced mx is not the direction that airlines should be going....75% of my neighbors -used- to work for that computer compnay with the boxes that looked like cows.....can anyone in here tell me that they have had a positive experience while on the phone to india????not many...best part is my daughter decided that it was worth the jump from the tampoline to the pool and broke her leg....after 7pm at night our local hospital sends her xrays..and im not BSing here...to india.....they did not catch the hairline fracture on her ankle but caught the nice clean break on the leg.......
Bus Driver
 
ikramerica
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:00 pm

How did a comment re: hiring a MX firm to do MX change to an India bashing thread?

I think airlines would be stupid to hire telemarketers to do reservations. Considering how hard it is to keep on top of the ticketing rules and options, you need dedicated staff to do it right.

As for travel agents... anyone notice that the decline of the american airline industry roughly parallels the switch from travel agent model to online and paperless direct sales as the primary outlet for ticketing? Airlines made it so easy for pax to do it themselves, they also made it too easy to find the lowest fares all the time...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
uadc8contrail
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:19 pm

How did a comment re: hiring a MX firm to do MX change to an India bashing thread?

ikramerica,
the indian bashing beats any ual bashing any day,,,,,,

I think airlines would be stupid to hire telemarketers to do reservations. Considering how hard it is to keep on top of the ticketing rules and options, you need dedicated staff to do it right.

ikramerica,
dont know what airline you work for...but....some have moved a lot of their res over to india.......will give a hint......atl based airline and a elk grove based airline in bk...that should give you a clue......

As for travel agents... anyone notice that the decline of the american airline industry roughly parallels the switch from travel agent model to online and paperless direct sales as the primary outlet for ticketing? Airlines made it so easy for pax to do it themselves, they also made it too easy to find the lowest fares all the time...

again ikramerica...the decline in air travel in america directly coincides with a switch from a face in front of you checking in to a computer screen and a touch pad checking you in....carlson wagon lit will not be out done in the race to out source.....heck the model airline(jetblue)uses housewifes to make your res and skirt the travel agent all together.....
Bus Driver
 
toltommy
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:17 pm

Quoting Fleet Service (Reply 4):
Like the "Quality Outsourcing" on that USAirways Express plane that crashed into one of the UAIR hangars in CLT about a year and a half or so ago?

That "Quality Outsourcing" improperly rigged cables that killed everyone on that aircraft.

Or the quality insourcing that caused brakes to fail in MSP, and caused the recent ground accident between 2 NW airplanes? Or the ground incident with the NW A320 at LGA? My list is just as endless. The outsourced MX at ValuJet wasn't the primary cause of the 592 crash. The fact that safety wasn't the primary concern of ValuJet managers was. And that's why the company doesn't exist anymore.

You might b$tch about "armchair CEO's", but the mindset of organized labor that work should only be done by members of a union, otherwise it's somehow unsafe, is ridiculous as well.
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727LOVER
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:35 pm

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 8):
The outsourced MX at ValuJet wasn't the primary cause of the 592 crash. The fact that safety wasn't the primary concern of ValuJet managers was. And that's why the company doesn't exist anymore.

It doesn't?  Confused
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
Squid
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:43 pm

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 8):
You might b$tch about "armchair CEO's", but the mindset of organized labor that work should only be done by members of a union, otherwise it's somehow unsafe, is ridiculous as well.

That's exactly what it is, more union blather. The unions need to go away, and the employees need to shut the hell up and focus on their jobs and let the management run the airline as they see fit.
 
Fleet Service
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:51 pm

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 8):
You might b$tch about "armchair CEO's", but the mindset of organized labor that work should only be done by members of a union, otherwise it's somehow unsafe, is ridiculous as well.

Did I mention organized labor?

Seems to me a vast majority of the armchair CEO's here like to fantasize about the "typical union" worker as some knuckle dragging contract quoting cigar chomping older Italian stereotype.


Delta Airlines maintenance technicians are not represented and they are among the finest in the industry.

Do you berate your local UPS driver for being a Teamster while fawning over the non union FedEx driver?


What we're talking about here is the fact that maintenance of commercial jet aircraft is being farmed out to the lowest bidder.

The lowest bidder!


Lowest price does not always insure highest quality.
Yes, I actually *do* work for an airline,how about you?
 
Fleet Service
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:02 am

Quoting Squid (Reply 10):
The unions need to go away, and the employees need to shut the hell up and focus on their jobs and let the management run the airline as they see fit.

"Let management run the airline as they see fit"

Like the bang up job at United that landed them in chapter 11 and kept them there for almost three years now and UAIR twice in three years, or Ron Allen flailing around at Delta post 9/11?


"Employees need to shut the hell up"

And let Carty set up a bankruptcy proof pension plan for the top executives at AMR while preaching doom and gloom re:Loss of pension benefits in a bankruptcy filing to the rank and file.

And let management at UAIR dole out "Retention Bonus" millions to itself while the rank and file enjoys a third round of paycuts?
Yes, I actually *do* work for an airline,how about you?
 
Squid
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:48 am

Quoting Fleet Service (Reply 12):
"Let management run the airline as they see fit"

Like the bang up job at United that landed them in chapter 11 and kept them there for almost three years now and UAIR twice in three years, or Ron Allen flailing around at Delta post 9/11?

If the board of directors at United were unhappy with Glen Tilton, then he should be replaced by the board of directors, that is their job, not the employees. Employees are basically tools used to deliver the product, but the shareholders, who are represented by the board of directors have every right to ask for Tiltons removal.

Quoting Fleet Service (Reply 12):
And let Carty set up a bankruptcy proof pension plan for the top executives at AMR while preaching doom and gloom re:Loss of pension benefits in a bankruptcy filing to the rank and file.

And let management at UAIR dole out "Retention Bonus" millions to itself while the rank and file enjoys a third round of paycuts?

Well the people who run these major airlines do so because of their business experience and therefore qualify to lead an advantaged life. Most of their peers actually feel for them because they make considerably less than what they should and probably could earn at other companies. Airlines pay their executives as much as they can though in order to retain their talent. There is no reason to be upset with how much these people make, they are under paid as it is.

[Edited 2005-07-13 17:52:09]
 
toltommy
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:59 am

Quoting Fleet Service (Reply 11):
Lowest price does not always insure highest quality.

So are you saying highest price always ensures highest quality?

That "bang up job" you refer to at UAL that ended up in CH11 began as Employee Ownership. The employees at UAL got their leadership team as part of the ESOP deal. Then they treated the company as their own personal golden goose, and gave themselves "industry leading" contracts. This in part left the company woefullt prepared for the downturn in the economy that preceeded 9/11.

Just as you love "armchair CEOs" talking about how to run a business, I love when someone with absolutely no business skills thinks they know how to run an airline, simply because they work for one. I call them "lawnchair CEOs".

And FWIW, I do prefer FedEx over UPS. UPS doesn't work on Saturdays, even though I do. FedEx employees just seem to work harder, in my opinion.
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ramprat74
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:54 am

Quoting Squid (Reply 10):
That's exactly what it is, more union blather. The unions need to go away, and the employees need to shut the hell up and focus on their jobs and let the management run the airline as they see fit.





I see you work for the US Government. So with your thinking. They should fire all those Union Government employees also?
 
ckfred
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:47 am

Let's ask the more important question for the short term. If the NMB releases NW and the AMFA, do they reach an agreement, or do the mechanics walk out?

And more importantly, do the mechanics acually walk out, or does President Bush send them back to work, like he did several years ago?

Of course, I could never understand why Bill Clinton sent AA's pilots back to work in 1997, but he let the NW labor group (I can't remember if it was the pilots, the mechanics, or the F/As) go on strike in 1998, but that's a different story.
 
J32driver
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:55 am

Quoting Squid (Reply 13):
Airlines pay their executives as much as they can though in order to retain their talent. There is no reason to be upset with how much these people make, they are under paid as it is.

Hey Barkeep... I'll have 2 of what he's having!!!
 
highguy76
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:07 am

Quoting Squid (Reply 13):
Well the people who run these major airlines do so because of their business experience and therefore qualify to lead an advantaged life. Most of their peers actually feel for them because they make considerably less than what they should and probably could earn at other companies. Airlines pay their executives as much as they can though in order to retain their talent. There is no reason to be upset with how much these people make, they are under paid as it is.

Call me crazy Squid, but for some of us airline employees, and hopefully for the CEO's as well, it isn't about market share or money or stock prices.
We actully enjoy working in an industry that provides a unique service, and doing our jobs well.

It is a shame that people with your attitude twist the companys we love and enjoy working for into low cost, high yield money making (or losing) machines.

Highguy76
 
TWFirst
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:15 am

Quoting Highguy76 (Reply 18):
It is a shame that people with your attitude twist the companys we love and enjoy working for into low cost, high yield money making (or losing) machines.

Ummm.... but that is WHY that company you love and enjoy working for exists... to make money... for its shareholders. It does NOT exist to employ as many people as it can. Sorry.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
highguy76
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:21 am

I'm not saying it exists to employ as many people as it can, but I do think it should concentrate more on providing the service it was built for, rather than making the share holders happy.
Have airlines ever been a good investment? Not really, and I don't think they are meant to be.
Highguy76
 
Squid
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:52 am

Well that is what business is about today. I'm sure there are several companies that were started years and years ago with the intention of providing good service and wages to life long employees. But times have changed. Eat or be Eaten.
 
highguy76
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:22 am

What's wrong with providing good service, or living wages to employees who are enthused about coming to work everyday.
The market is meant to benefit society, not the other way around. Where do people and their needs fit into your "Eat or be Eaten" equation?

Highguy76
 
Fleet Service
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:21 pm

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 14):
I love when someone with absolutely no business skills thinks they know how to run an airline, simply because they work for one. I call them "lawnchair CEOs".

And you base that statement on what? The fact I take exception to your sideline commentary on how to cure the ills of this business by "Getting rid of the unions" and "Increasing productivity"?

So that makes me someone with no business skills?

What do you know about me other than a screen name?

I ended up in the airline business after getting downsized out of advertising in the mid 90's, you know,"Enhanced Productivity and Increased Profitability" and all...

I'm through with this pointless argument with you.
Yes, I actually *do* work for an airline,how about you?
 
Fleet Service
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:24 pm

Quoting Squid (Reply 13):
There is no reason to be upset with how much these people make, they are under paid as it is.

Funniest thing I've read today.

Underpaid? Hilarious.


To force this thread remotely back on topic, AMFA will walk and there will be a PEB to force them back to work.
Yes, I actually *do* work for an airline,how about you?
 
slider
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:50 pm

Quoting Fleet Service (Reply 24):
To force this thread remotely back on topic, AMFA will walk and there will be a PEB to force them back to work.

Glad you brought it back on topic, but I'll disagree. There will not be a PEB declaration.

I think NW has already prepared for this, as evidenced by their hyper-aggressive stance throughout the entire mechanic discussions. they're ready to take one on the chin short-term to get a bigger win long-term. They're hiring replacement mechanics in advance, have other outsourcing firms lined up on contingency, I think it's going to happen.

At this point, it might HAVE to happen. Even getting last minute concessions to the tune NW is demanding will create an untenable situation in terms of labor relations, morale, etc, that might carry a price as well.

Either way, it's going to get interesting.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:34 am

RAMPRAT 74....I see in post 15, you mentioned the government. Three years ago, Rush Limbaugh said.."name one thing government does well".

I'm still working on it.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
Fleet Service
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:01 am

No doubt it'll be interesting, but the NWAC techs feel they have nothing to lose at this point.

They're being asked to vote 50% of their members out of a job and the remainder will be looking at a 26% paycut.

That isn't an appealing prospect on any level.

Fault also lies with NWAC management, as you mentioned their hyper-aggresive stance throughout the course of these negotiations,actively recruiting replacement workers and asking for the NLRB to release them from talks early.

I have no doubt the strike vote currently being taken by the AMFA membership will result in a strike being authorized, but I also think NWAC management will attempt a lock out when the cooling off period expires.

I still feel Bush will order the mechanics back to work via the PEB.
Yes, I actually *do* work for an airline,how about you?
 
TWFirst
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:03 am

Quoting Highguy76 (Reply 20):
I'm not saying it exists to employ as many people as it can, but I do think it should concentrate more on providing the service it was built for, rather than making the share holders happy.
Have airlines ever been a good investment? Not really, and I don't think they are meant to be.
Highguy76

So you think the shareholders of NWA own the company just for the hell of it and invested in the company knowing they would lose their investment?

And that makes sense to you????


Historically, the airline industry was able to offer the services it did because the market demanded it and paid for it. However, now, the industry has matured and has some very mature players whose cost structures have increased dramatically, combined with a market that is no longer willing to pay for fine dining and other amenities. Thus, the mature players have no pricing power, and are forced to match fares with competitors who have much lower cost structures and different business models... because that's what the market is demanding. But any corporate entity MUST eventually become profitable, or it will no longer be in business. So employees must come to terms with this reality.... and either accept it, or look for another employer willing to pay the kind of wages they want for the skills they have... or develop new skills and experience that command higher wages. Unions, however, are an anachronism, a business in and of themselves, managed by people who have their own personal interests first and foremost in mind, and the cause of most of their members' problems.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
LMP737
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:10 am

Squid:

Exactly what do you do in the Navy and what are you studying as a student?
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
toltommy
Topic Author
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:44 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 25):
There will not be a PEB declaration.

I tend to agree. Feds haven't stepped in yet on any recent negotiations, whether the airline was in Ch11 or not. The market is correcting itself, and this administration isn't going to intervene.

Quoting Fleet Service (Reply 27):
No doubt it'll be interesting, but the NWAC techs feel they have nothing to lose at this point.

They're being asked to vote 50% of their members out of a job and the remainder will be looking at a 26% paycut.

I dunno. All it takes is 50% +1 to pass a new contract. The group is talking big right now, but so did the AMFA group at US and UA. When it came down to the final hours, the senior half of the group decided 75% of a loaf was better than none at all. The senior 50% might be taking a pay cut, but in many cases, the house is paid off, kids out of the house, retirement on the horizon. Personally, I think they'll throw the junior 50% under the bus, just to save themselves. There hasn't been a AMFA group yet that's shown old-fashioned solidarity. Will NW be first? Possible, but smart money's on a settlement.
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hammer
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:17 am

TOL--I agree with you totally, alot of senior guys here in DTW are talking a big game, but when push comes to shove and you are either taking a pay cut or out of a job, the pay cut is the more sensible choice. Rumor has it that AMFA is not trying to save the 2,500 jobs, but trying to get some sort of severance package for them, because they realize that NWA is not going to budge from their numbers. I do see AMFA striking, but only for a few days tops, then they will reach a deal...2,500 jobs lost (severance packages for 6 months of pay) and a 26% pay cut for the rest. NWA has a back up plan with scab workers to fill in in the mechanics place and they have a deal with Prospect Airport Service starting August 15th to start cleaning, if need be. The 30 day cooling off period should be granted by the 19th of July, the day AMFA's strike vote is due in. If the board sends them back to talk, it is like pissing in the wind....we will see in a few days.
 
LMP737
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:22 am

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 30):
The group is talking big right now, but so did the AMFA group at US and UA.

AMFA does not represent the AMT's at US Airways.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
tu154m
Posts: 613
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RE: NW Agrees With AMFA, Asks NMB To Release

Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:46 am

Squid................please go take your management buddies who are "grossly underpaid" for a swim with a sperm whale!!!!!!!!!
CEOs should swim with cement flippers!

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