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pawsleykat
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757s Flying The Atlantic.

Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:08 pm

13 months ago Continental started up operations direct to EWR from EDI. I was inteding to fly on the route, but when i discovered that CO were using the 757-200, I didn't want to go. I flew on a 752 to PMI in 03 and although the flight was only 2 hours and 15 minutes, I felt really cramped as we came into land.
Just a small question. Is it just me or would anybody else feel uncomfy on a 7 hour trans-atlantic flight on a narrowbody aircraft and no PTV infront of you? I'd have to fly from GLA on the 762 or 764 and feel comfy. I don't know why CO don't set up the 767-200 on that route?  wave 
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Starlionblue
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:25 pm

Quoting Pawsleykat (Thread starter):
Is it just me or would anybody else feel uncomfy on a 7 hour trans-atlantic flight on a narrowbody aircraft and no PTV infront of you?

It's just you  Wink No seriously it's just an individual thing. As long as I have my laptop and my noise cancellation headphones I don't care. BTW a US transcon is almost as long and nobody seems to have a problem doing those in a 757.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Orion737
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:34 pm

Also the 757 you flew to Palma on would have been charter configured (235 seats) and is painful even on a 2 hour flight. The 757 of scheduled airlines are much roomier with less seats.
 
dutchjet
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:43 pm

Again, the 757 and the atlantic thing.......

Regarding your feelings, most pax have no problems with the 757 on a 7 hour leg accross that Atlantic. And, in any case, a nonstop flight on a 757 is preferred to flying a much longer routing via a connecting city. Which is better for most pax (not anet people): nonstop EDI-EWR on a 757, or a connection via London or Amsterdam adding atleast 3 to 4 hours to your journey time?

Why does CO not use a larger aircraft? Firstly, none are available - CO widebodies fly longer routes and routes with more demand. Secondly, CO would probably have not started service to EDI with a larger type - the 757 has ideal economics and capacity for this route and a larger aircraft would kill yeilds and increase costs especially during the non-summer months. And, CO does offer a full BF premium service on its 757s.

Also, dont compare your flight to Palma on a 757 with what CO offers - your holiday flight to Palma was likely on a 757 with 225 or more pax on it with the seats in a high density arrangment with 29 or 30 inch pitch - it is tight and uncomfortable - most holiday flights are. CO's 757s have a far more comfortable seating arrangement with about 170 seats.

And, dont bother going to GLA, those flights are 757s as well. I guess that you will have to head down to MAN or London to feel comfy on your flight to the US.
 
Orion737
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:52 pm

You Dutch might be lucky enough to get 225 seat charter 757s but us in the Uk have to put up with 235 crammed into out charter 757s!
 
ltbewr
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:08 pm

Some of you forget that for many years until about 1970, your only choice on a long flight was on a narrowbody (707, DC-8's mostly). The pitch, design of the seat, flight load, your size, are all factors that can affect your experience on a 757 or similar narrowbody on long flights. I have been on 'charter pitch' 707's, and a DC-8 and the experience was absolutly miserable. I have been on 757's and other narrowbodies a number of times on long USA domestic flights and at least once on a 757 on BA JFK-Birmingham UK, with no real complaints, except on packed flights and where ended up without an aisle seat.
 
Beany
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:09 pm

Quoting Pawsleykat (Thread starter):
Just a small question. Is it just me or would anybody else feel uncomfy on a 7 hour trans-atlantic flight on a narrowbody aircraft and no PTV infront of you? I'd have to fly from GLA on the 762 or 764 and feel comfy. I don't know why CO don't set up the 767-200 on that route?

On Monday I flew CO from LAX to LGW via EWR. The leg from LAX to EWR was on CO16 which continued onto GLA. It was operated by a 757 and the time from LAX to EWR was over 5 hours. I just popped on my iPod and settled back to enjoy the flight. There was nothing really uncomfortable about spending 5+ hours on a 757.
 
nyskymasters
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:15 pm

Quoting Beany (Reply 6):
On Monday I flew CO from LAX to LGW via EWR. The leg from LAX to EWR was on CO16 which continued onto GLA. It was operated by a 757 and the time from LAX to EWR was over 5 hours. I just popped on my iPod and settled back to enjoy the flight. There was nothing really uncomfortable about spending 5+ hours on a 757.

Glad to see you enjoyed the LAX-EWR flight Beany. I was one of your pilots that day.
 
boysteve
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:36 am

It seems that many pax don't really worry about single aisle vs widebody. Its just many of us on here!
Apart from CO's EDI-EWR, BMI have down-sized to a 757 from MAN - IAD recently, and AA fly a 757 MAN-BOS also. Personally I'm more concerned with having my own television screen and what food and drink I get rather than the number of aisles an aircraft has. Just my opinion
 
AJRfromSYR
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:41 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
BTW a US transcon is almost as long and nobody seems to have a problem doing those in a 757.

I deal with it but hate flying coast to coast on a narrow body.
-AJR-
 
777STL
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:52 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 5):
Some of you forget that for many years until about 1970, your only choice on a long flight was on a narrowbody (707, DC-8's mostly). The pitch, design of the seat, flight load, your size, are all factors that can affect your experience on a 757 or similar narrowbody on long flights. I have been on 'charter pitch' 707's, and a DC-8 and the experience was absolutly miserable. I have been on 757's and other narrowbodies a number of times on long USA domestic flights and at least once on a 757 on BA JFK-Birmingham UK, with no real complaints, except on packed flights and where ended up without an aisle seat.

No shit, some people around here act like its the end of the world when they get on an airplane without IFE or On Demand, christ, until the late 90s that's how people actually flew. If you were lucky, you got on a widebody with a projection screen and that was it.

That being said, with certain exceptions, comfort-wise, coach on a '57 is going to be no worse than coach on a '67. Usually it's the same Y seat, with the same Y-pitch, otherwise it's all in your head.
PHX based
 
SAS330GOT
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:53 am

Quoting Nyskymasters (Reply 7):

That is the first time I saw that even though I am on this site everyday. But that is really cool.



On the other hand. Back to topic. We here are members on Airliners.net there is a reason why we care. I refuse to fly certain airline routes because I feel unsafe. This is me imagining that the airplane is going to go down at any second because I know what model it is or when it is made or what kind etc. My girlfriend only cares if she flies non-stop or shortest time. While I try to get on flights where I have 2 or 3 hours lay over at a bigger airport so I can look at these flying coke cans (aluminum tubes).

Flying a 757 across the Atlantic is great I fly Iceland air often and I love the 757. It is a smooth ride. But true no PTV, but an iPod or computer or a very good book will solve this problem.

Have a great day
good night
sas330got
 
oly720man
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:17 am

I've flown AA JFK-MAN, when they did it a few years ago and my parents have flown AA MAN-BOS-MAN, all in 757s. No complaints. As already stated, a scheduled flight will have more legroom than the pack-em-in flights to the med sunshine.

In some respects it feels more comfortable on a 757 just because there are fewer people.
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
777gk
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:26 am

I did not realize we had pilots that were flight attendants as well, Nyskymasters.

[Edited 2005-07-18 00:27:01]
 
mainMAN
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:36 am

The first time I went across the pond, back in 1977, it was on a BA VC10 which routed MAN/PIK/YMX and finally YYZ. My mum booked it and told me later that she'd done so because she was scared of the sheer size of a 747! (Which at the time was relatively new)

The second time I went to Canada was on a Canada 3000 757. It was very cramped, but I can't honestly see an issue with traversing the Atlantic on a single aisle plane. It's pretty boring whichever way you do it.
 
AJRfromSYR
Posts: 445
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:38 am

Quoting 777gk (Reply 13):
I did not realize we had pilots that were flight attendants as well, Nyskymasters.

I think CO started C172 service, I believe they opted for the SP's.
-AJR-
 
beauing
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:51 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
Also, dont compare your flight to Palma on a 757 with what CO offers - your holiday flight to Palma was likely on a 757 with 225 or more pax on it with the seats in a high density arrangment with 29 or 30 inch pitch - it is tight and uncomfortable - most holiday flights are. CO's 757s have a far more comfortable seating arrangement with about 170 seats.

seatguru.com says that COs 752 International have 16 Business First seats with a 55 inch pitch and 156 coach seats with a 31 inch pitch. 31 inches is nothing special. in fact it's down right skimpy. If you're in coach, where I usually am you're going to suffer.

There's a lot to be said for skipping the hub and flying straight to your destination, though...
 
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fanoftristars
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Mon Jul 18, 2005 8:00 am

I personally like the "feeling" of a widebody over the narrow body. When there are both offered on the same route, I'll usually choose the widebody unless the upgrade chances are not as good. For instance, I flew home from JFK-SLC on Delta (scheduled 5hrs & 5min). They have two flights departing a about an hour a part in the afternoon, one on a 767, one on a 757. Even though the 757 F seats are a bit wider, I still picked the 767 because it feels bigger. Four rows of six seats just feels better than 6 rows of four seats to me.

Having said that, if the 767 made a stop in CVG or ATL on the way home, I'd for sure be on the 757. I guess in lots of ways, Boeings projections are correct. We are seeeing a lot more direct routes are being opened, on smaller aircraft than point to point destinations being cancelled, and funneled on bigger aircraft through hubs.
"FLY DELTA JETS"
 
goCOgo
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:44 am

Quoting Beauing (Reply 16):
31 inches is nothing special. in fact it's down right skimpy. If you're in coach, where I usually am you're going to suffer.

It's the same pitch as CO's 772s, which I don't seem to hear people complaining about nearly as much.

By the way, many rumors point to CO outfitting all 752s with BizFirst, and possibly adding PTVs in coach, perhaps even adding AVOD, making 752 IFE better than CO widebody IFE, but we'll have to wait and see if that happens. It's still under study, I think.
"Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
 
jacobin777
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:02 am

Quoting Pawsleykat (Thread starter):
. Is it just me or would anybody else feel uncomfy on a 7 hour trans-atlantic flight on a narrowbody aircraft and no PTV infront of you?

many transcon flights are 5 to 6 hour flights..an extra hour isn't all that bad..

as long as I have my laptop with good and my noise cancellation headphones and my own grub, I'm all good...  yes 
"Up the Irons!"
 
Beany
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:27 pm

Quoting Nyskymasters (Reply 7):
Glad to see you enjoyed the LAX-EWR flight Beany. I was one of your pilots that day.

Is that so? So was it you who slammed it down onto 4R then?  Smile
 
ManchesterMAN
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:17 pm

I sure hope i never see any narrow body-bashers on the upper deck of a 747.
Flown: A300,A319,A320,A321,A330,A340.A380,717,727,737,747,757,767,777,DC9,DC10,MD11,MD80,F100,F50,ERJ,E190,CRJ,BAe146,Da
 
jettrader
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:10 pm

Hi all,

I am recently returned from my first narrowbody trans-Atlantic flights, MAN-BOS-MAN on American Airlines 757-200.

71 inch seat pitch was fine - I'm 6'.0'' and I was perfectly able to stretch my legs. Ok...so I missed not having the PTV (I've been spoiled by VS) but Mp3 player plus a little snooze and it was fine.

I'd do it again no worries!

Regards,
Dean / JT
Life's dangerous. Get a f**king helmet!
 
Catatonic
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:26 pm

Check out peoples opinions of CO and the 757 on skytrax:

http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/contl.htm

I must admit, I was put off flying across the pond in a 757 even though CO are offering amazing deals from BRS to EWR
Equally Cursed and Blessed.
 
Ryanair737
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:31 pm

I would have no problem whatsoever flying on a B757 across the Atlantic. The seat pitch you get with AA and CO on the B757 is perfectly reasonable for a 9 hour flight.

Ryanair737
LAST FLIGHTS= Ryanair LPL-BGY-LPL - EI-DPS/DWV - MAY 08 // NEXT FLIGHTS= TBC
 
cornish
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:36 pm

Quoting Pawsleykat (Thread starter):
I don't know why CO don't set up the 767-200 on that route?

I think I'm right in saying that the 767-200s flown by CO have less seats than the 757-200s. The 767-200s have higher cargo capacity of course - something that certainly wouldn't be required on the EDI route.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
Ready4Pushback
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:39 pm

Quoting Boysteve (Reply 8):
Personally I'm more concerned with having my own television screen and what food and drink I get rather than the number of aisles an aircraft has. Just my opinion

I totally agree with this.

I don't understand people that argue that we shouldn't go on about not having PTVs because we never used to have it before and we should just put up with it. That's a stupid argument.

Anyway - I don't understand why people would rather fly on a widebody - particularly if it means travelling to some distant airport or even having to change thru a hub? Personally, although i love the aircraft, i have always found the 747 to be the most uncomfortable a/c to fly on. I always travel in economy "coach", btw, and found the 757 to be a great a/c to fly on.
CO fly from BHX-EWR and I hope to do the journey one day.

Why do people need to be on a widebody!?

Gary
 
N1120A
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:39 pm

Quoting Pawsleykat (Thread starter):
I didn't want to go. I flew on a 752 to PMI in 03 and although the flight was only 2 hours and 15 minutes, I felt really cramped as we came into land

Totally different configurations

Quoting Pawsleykat (Thread starter):
Is it just me or would anybody else feel uncomfy on a 7 hour trans-atlantic flight on a narrowbody aircraft and no PTV infront of you?

People do it all the time. Also, CO is planning on introducing their new AVOD system on their trans-atlantic 757s

Quoting Pawsleykat (Thread starter):
I don't know why CO don't set up the 767-200 on that route?

Because the route cannot support it from a cargo, premium traffic or yield standpoint

Quoting JetTrader (Reply 22):
71 inch seat pitch was fine

A 71 inch seat pitch would be awesome. A 31 inch pitch, like on AA's 752s is not quite as nice
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ARGinLON
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:45 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 25):
think I'm right in saying that the 767-200s flown by CO have less seats than the 757-200s. The 767-200s have higher cargo capacity of course - something that certainly wouldn't be required on the EDI route.

No.

752: 16BF + 156 eco = 172
762: 25BF + 149 eco = 174
 
jettrader
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:54 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
A 71 inch seat pitch would be awesome. A 31 inch pitch, like on AA's 752s is not quite as nice

Oops - my mistake!

But the 31" seat pitch, whilst not the most roomy, was just fine.

Cheers,
Dean / JT
Life's dangerous. Get a f**king helmet!
 
N77014
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:34 am

Quoting Pawsleykat (Thread starter):
13 months ago Continental started up operations direct to EWR from EDI. I was inteding to fly on the route, but when i discovered that CO were using the 757-200, I didn't want to go. I flew on a 752 to PMI in 03 and although the flight was only 2 hours and 15 minutes, I felt really cramped as we came into land.
Just a small question. Is it just me or would anybody else feel uncomfy on a 7 hour trans-atlantic flight on a narrowbody aircraft and no PTV infront of you? I'd have to fly from GLA on the 762 or 764 and feel comfy. I don't know why CO don't set up the 767-200 on that route?

The truth is, if not for a B757, there would be no flight at all. Oftentimes, it is the only aircraft with the break-even and performance to keep a route profitable.

So, from EDI, OSL, BRS, BFS or HAM; burn a few hours connecting in a hub, or enjoy the convenience of a nonstop. If time is money, you will know where to go.
A new life awaits you in the Off-World Colonies...
 
mikkel777
Posts: 361
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2002 1:15 am

RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:03 am

I did EWR-OSL in 752 on CO 2 weeks ago, as part of MCO-CLE-EWR-OSL. I must say that to date, this is my best transatlantic flight. Have previous flown SK, KL, NW, LH and DL, some in Y and some in C and some in both C and Y on 767,777, DC10, MD11, 330 and 340. As long as you are in the front of the airplane, a 757 is just as good as any other. In fact, i prefer the smaller cabin and more personal service of 16 C seats, compared to other carriers 40+ C-seats. I did not use the IFE at all, since i had a nice little notebook with 12" screen loaded with friends and 24. On my returnflight, I don't have the pc anymore, so I will check out the IFE then.

For pictures of the cabin, the food +++, look at my norwegian trip-report at http://www.scanair-forum.net/forums/read.php?TID=4856. The report has 4 pages, but page 2 and 3 has the most pictures. Some day, I might translate it to english and put it in the tripreports-forum on a.net.

My returnflight will be in two days, July 20.th, so there will be a lot more pictures added soon.
 
toltommy
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:46 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 5):
Some of you forget that for many years until about 1970, your only choice on a long flight was on a narrowbody (707, DC-8's mostly).

Yep, until better alternatives were developed!

I know that the 757 can make the transatlantic flight just fine. I've flown on plenty of NW 757's for flights in the US, and I like the plane. But back when CO started flying CLE-LGW, and I was a plat CO elite, I connected in EWR to a 777. I just prefer a little bigger plane on longer flights. I won't fly on a CRJ/ERJ for much more than 90 minutes, and prefer the lower deck of the 744 as well. Personal choice, and maybe I'm just a little claustrophobic as well.
A300/A310/A319/A320/A321/A332/A333 / 707/712/727/732/733/734/735/738/739/752/753
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solnabo
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:09 am

Flying a narrowbody over the pond for 8-10 hours, not with my body. Give me a widebody and Ill go  thumbsup 

Micke//SE  Wink
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
mikkel777
Posts: 361
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2002 1:15 am

RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:17 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 33):
Flying a narrowbody over the pond for 8-10 hours, not with my body. Give me a widebody and Ill go

So, you are so wide that you don't fit in a narrowbody?? :-|

BTW, I'm 6'4 and 210, and I can not se that any other thing than the layout and seats the airline selects for its aircraft has anything to do with how comfy I feel on a long flight (noise could be a problem, but I have ANR)
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:23 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 33):
Flying a narrowbody over the pond for 8-10 hours, not with my body. Give me a widebody and Ill go

Micke//SE

Thats your choice, and its fine......but most pax select flights based upon:

Price, Schedule, nonstop or connecting, and FF mileage. And most pax are very happy to avoid connections (or multiple connections) whenever possible.

Type of aircraft is not a big factor for the average passenger, it is a big deal here at a.net because, after all, we are not average!
 
beauing
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 1:59 pm

RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:56 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 33):
Flying a narrowbody over the pond for 8-10 hours, not with my body. Give me a widebody and Ill go

I flew BA from SEA to LHR in coach. The 747 was full, I was in the middle. It was 9.5 hours of misery. When something fell off my tray I was unable to pick it up because there was no room to reach down. They must have the smallest seat pitch in the industry.

It doesn't matter which plane you fly on, it's how the airline configures it and how crowded the flight is.

[Edited 2005-07-18 21:13:52]
 
Blackbird1331
Posts: 1741
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:47 am

RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:59 am

I flew CO on a 757 from EWR to BXH and back. The only way I would have enjoyed it is if I was flying first class. Nine hours in the air is difficult under most conditions. An A380 with a swimming pool would be nice.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
USAFHummer
Posts: 10261
Joined: Thu May 18, 2000 12:22 pm

RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:14 am

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Reply 37):
I flew CO on a 757 from EWR to BXH and back. The only way I would have enjoyed it is if I was flying first class. Nine hours in the air is difficult under most conditions.

9 hours on an EWR-BHX-EWR segment? That seems a bit extreme...when I flew it, it was 6 hours eastbound and 7 hours westbound...

And on the topic, like many of you, I had my reservations about flying transatlantic in a narrowbody, but found it to be no big deal...I'd do it again if the need came up!

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
BOSPMV
Posts: 305
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:23 am

does anyone know how long BOS-NYO is?
 
Blackbird1331
Posts: 1741
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RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:48 am

Greg: That included a hold at the gate at EWR and low visibility at BXH. I wanted to swap seats with the captain, but he would not go for it. Something about company regulations.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
N766UA
Posts: 8394
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:01 am

People sure are spoiled with these PTVs. I'm used to spending hours at a time in a C172 with only the chatter of ATC for entertainment, I'll take a 757 anyday... plus the thrum of jets easily puts me to sleep so 5+ hours flies by. Literally!
 
beauing
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 1:59 pm

RE: 757s Flying The Atlantic.

Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:25 am

Quoting BOSPMV (Reply 39):
does anyone know how long BOS-NYO is?

I can give you the distance: 3241 nm (6002 km) according to gc.kls2.com

Given the 752s economical cruising speed of 850km/h I'd guess around 7.5 hours.

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Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos