I was watching Airline on A and E and I saw a woman try to get on an earlier flight that had seats available and be denied because of a southwest policy. She was even offered an article by Herb Kelleher entitled "why Cant I Just fly standby?". What is "WN's reason for not letting people fly standby? Seemingly it does not cost them anything.

[Edited 2005-07-20 01:30:45]

It does costs a lot of time and delays the boarding process which costs $$$.

WN will let you pay the difference of the fare class available or confirm on a full fare Y ticket, that way there is no wasted energy on anyone's part.

They didn't outright deny her, she just turned down the $125 extra charge per seat she would have had to pay, the price difference 1MillionFlyer is talking about.

Harry

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 1): It does costs a lot of time and delays the boarding process which costs $$$.

The airlines board non-revs all the time in this manner. Why is it different for revenue passengers?

By allowing someone to stand by for an earlier flight may help more people to get on the next flight. In other words if Flight A is not full because people have misconnected due to a late inbound flight. Instead of connecting to Flight A, these people now have to try to get on a Flight B, which may be full. If some people who are scheduled to go on Flight B were early and put on A, then B would have seats available.

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 1): It does costs a lot of time and delays the boarding process

Curious about how it costs.... I know WN likes their quick turn arounds, but its not like they have to find the pax a seat. If they know there are only, say, 100 pax confirmed on the flight how much trouble can it really be to issue a new boarding pass?

Quoting Mrmoose (Thread starter): Why Can't You Standby On WN?

You can stand by on SWA. Just pay the fare difference. The reasoning - I believe – behind this rule is the following:

Someone buys a ticket on the 11:30 AM flight instead of the 8AM flight because it was $125 less. They really want the 8AM flight. They go and try to stand by for the earlier flight.

Its worse on other carriers because they charge hideous $100 change fees in addition to the fare difference.

  

Thanks FlyingTexan, that's what I was attempting (poorly) to say.

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 5): Someone buys a ticket on the 11:30 AM flight instead of the 8AM flight because it was $125 less. They really want the 8AM flight. They go and try to stand by for the earlier flight.

This is the essence of the explanation I was given by a Southwest gate agent concerning the reasoning behind their standby policy the one and only time I have asked about flying standby for an earlier flight on the same date, same routing.

Flying Texan,

If you buy a full fare ticket on WN and have to change your departure to the next flight because you missed the check in time for traffic or for other reasons they will take a full fare ticket holder and make that ticket holder play trained MONKEY and stand around and wait to see if they get called to be seated as standby when they have paid more money for flying than the person on the cheaper ticket. What kind of BS is that?

On other airlines you are given priority.

Yet another reason why flying on WN is better than the legacies right?

My family recently flew delta. They allowed my family of four to take an earlier flight from ATL to MCI because my scheduled flight was already showing late. Once the gate agent realized that the flight leaving in 20 minutes was supposed to be full, but wasn't because of many misconnects. And the fact that our scheduled flight was both late and overbooked. She agreed with our argument that we were helping both Delta and ourselves to be put on the earlier flight. There would be four fewer people to deal with on the last flight of the day that was both late and overbooked. We got home early, and Delta had four more seats available on their later flight.

We were not charged, and we agreed to be separated from our checked luggage.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 8): If you buy a full fare ticket on WN and have to change your departure to the next flight because you missed the check in time for traffic or for other reasons they will take a full fare ticket holder and make that ticket holder play trained MONKEY and stand around and wait to see if they get called to be seated as standby when they have paid more money for flying than the person on the cheaper ticket. What kind of BS is that?

 

I’m missing something.

Full Fare Y ticket on SWA.

Miss one flight, no problem, change to the next one (for no add/collect change fee).

That Full Y customer is now standby for what? The next flight? No, he can change his ticket to get a confirmed seat provided that flight is not oversold and it’s the same routing.

Enlighten me.


 

[Edited 2005-07-20 03:38:12]

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 8): If you buy a full fare ticket on WN and have to change your departure to the next flight because you missed the check in time for traffic or for other reasons they will take a full fare ticket holder and make that ticket holder play trained MONKEY and stand around and wait to see if they get called to be seated as standby when they have paid more money for flying than the person on the cheaper ticket. What kind of BS is that?

Yes, please enlighten me as well... All I can surmise from what you are saying is that Southwest is, in your mind, obligated to bump ticketed pax confirmed on a given flight on a less-than-full-fare ticket, if necessary, to make room for full fare pax who have missed their ticketed and confirmed flight and are going standby on a later flight...??? Anything other than this interpretation of you reply makes no sense -- I for one would luv to be entertained by hearing what you would have to say about LUV if you (or a friend or family member) were the discount fare pax arbitrarily bumped from your confirmed flight by Southwest because a full fare pax needed the seat because they either missed their flight or decided to standby for an earlier/later departure (in which case they would be flying standby only if the flight was sold out inasmuch as they would have been confirmed on the flight if a seat were available for sale).

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12): Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 5): Its worse on other carriers because they charge hideous $100 change fees in addition to the fare difference. The difference is other carriers don't enforce this rule as strictly.

I must concede, other carriers laxly enforce this in my experience. They are to be commended on that.

As far as the $100 dollar change fees........

The legacies charge this if you are changing your reservation before the day of the flight. There is no fee if you go to the aiport the same day as your reservation and standby for an earlier flight. This is a same-day standby.

On DL, they don't have standby. They have "same day confirmation" for $25.

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 14): The legacies charge this if you are changing your reservation before the day of the flight. There is no fee if you go to the aiport the same day as your reservation and standby for an earlier flight. This is a same-day standby.

Exactly! I think the standby rule for WN is probably the dumbest WN policy. I cant really see that it'd hurt WN by a passenger flying same-day standby.

I've done it on legacy carriers and it's its keep my happy with those carriers. I would guess that the policy is in place to generate revenue rather than protect it from delayed flights. But I cant be too upset at WN, however, because you normally get more than what you paid for on WN.

pilottim747

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12): The difference is other carriers don't enforce this rule as strictly. More than once have I arrived at the airport early on a high-frequency route (like MIA-LGA) to have been offered a space on the earlier flight, no change fees involved. Airlines especially like to do this when the later departure is oversold, and there is still space on the earlier flight. They trust that the person didn't have such intentions to purchase the later ticket and go on the earlier flight. Nevermind the fact it is simple customer service and keeping the customer satisfied. Twice while flying home via Atlanta, I was able to switch from landing at FLL to an earlier flight landing at MIA with no questions asked and no fees assessed, because they want to make the customer happy.

AA is very good at this. They are very flexible with standbys, as per my experience. But DL is something else. If you are not high elite you need to pay the $25 standby fee...ugh!..but at least you can get the next flight confirmed within 3 hours of departure instead of waiting to see if you are going to get a seat or not at the gate.

The WN standby policy doesnt make sense to me. They are so flexible and easy to deal with with everything else, but then, at the gate, they give you a hard time to standby. I think the gate agent should have the power to waive that if necessary, depending on the situation, as others have mentioned.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 8): If you buy a full fare ticket on WN and have to change your departure to the next flight because you missed the check in time for traffic or for other reasons they will take a full fare ticket holder and make that ticket holder play trained MONKEY and stand around and wait to see if they get called to be seated as standby when they have paid more money for flying than the person on the cheaper ticket. What kind of BS is that?

I was under the impression that passengers booked on a FULL FARE ticket DO NOT HAVE RESTRICTIONS and DO NOT HAVE TO PAY A FARE DIFFERENCE. Can they stand by as well? I believe you can buy a stand-by ticket...how does that work?
I've flown on a low fare ticket JAX-FLL and had to caugh up $60/person because my parents didn't want to sit in the airport for 4+ hours! Oh well, we got the A pass and a great crew.

Full Y tickets can be changed and confirmed space for no cost as many times as you want on WN.

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 16): AA is very good at this. They are very flexible with standbys, as per my experience

yes. this is part of the reason why i really really like AA. i've had good experience with going stand by with no problems on Northwest, US Air, United and Continental, too.

The gate agents at WN do have the ability to wave the difference in fare. When I worked @ ISP for them I used to let the customers on the ISP-PVD or ISP-BWI flights standby all of the time.

Quoting Mrmoose (Thread starter): She was even offered an article by Herb Kelleher entitled "why Cant I Just fly standby?".

Can someone post a link to the article please?

BWI757

Well, they're making money, and most of their passengers seem pretty happy. So, obviously they are doing something right. Maybe this policy is one of the reasons that they are making money.

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 1): WN will let you pay the difference of the fare class available or confirm on a full fare Y ticket, that way there is no wasted energy on anyone's part.

Let's see..

Time to clear standby without collecting fee
vs
Time to clear standby while insisting on a fee.

I think there is more wasted energy when you collect the fee!

This is one of the times where other carriers are actually more flexible than WN.

On most other carriers, you may fly standby on any earlier or later same-day flight as the one you're ticketed for for free, or in some cases for a minimal fee.

With WN, you can't stand-by for a different flight - it's considered an actual change, and as such you are required to pay the difference between your ticket's price and today's walkup fare. No exceptions.

Again, as others have posted, their rationale is that if you locked in an el-cheapo 21 day advance fare on the 11am flight but REALLY wanted the 8am flight that only had the no-advance walkup fare available, you'd be circumventing their rules if they permitted you to get on the 8am for the price of your 11am ticket.

Put another way - if others are only able to buy full -Y- on the 8am, where the hell do you get off thinking you should be able to get on using your cheap-ass 11am ticket?   

Bottom line? This is their rule, and that's that.

The only way I can see WN making more money with a "no stand by" policy is with customers who buy a cheaper later flight with the intentions of trying to board the earlier flight. However, when booking, there doesn't seem to be a big difference between fares of flights at different times on the same day. If you stand by for an earlier flight, you are taking a chance of having available seats. I don't see many people taking a risk of sitting in an airport for an extra 2-3 hours to save $20. Usually, the passenger who wants to stand by is a business traveler who got out of a meeting early. Or, the vacation traveler who got to the airport extra early to make sure they didn't get stuck in traffic. Wouldn't Southwest want to keep this segment of the market happy?

I think Southwest should change the policy and allow standby on earlier, same day flights if:

1) There are seats available (obviously)
2) The passenger is making the request early enough to not cause any sort of departure delay
3) The passenger waives the expectation of their luggage to be on the same flight
4) The stand by passengers board last.

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 16): If you are not high elite you need to pay the $25 standby fee...ugh!..but at least you can get the next flight confirmed within 3 hours of departure instead of waiting to see if you are going to get a seat or not at the gate.

It's not a standby fee. DL is pulling the seat(s) from inventory for you and charging a $25 fee to be confirmed. There is no standby at DL when paying the fee and there is no paying the fee if the flight is full.

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 17): The WN standby policy doesnt make sense to me.

They are a point to point airline and as one believe that the passenger had the choice to book which flight they wanted. If you couldn't book the flight you wanted then it was because that flight was full, so standby is irrelevant. The only reason a WN passenger wants to standby is because they booked the cheaper fare later in the day hoping they could be put on the actual flight they wanted for that same fare. They didn't force you to book the later flight and they also aren't responsible for what time you get to the airport.

Coming back from LAX last week, I had a $200 roundtrip coach ticket which has been upgraded to business class by a contact I had at AA.

I was allowed to standby for an earlier flight at no cost and still got my upgrade   although I did volunteer to downgrade if need be to get on an earlier flight and get home 2 hours earlier.

Let's step back from this a moment and look at this logically.

There are two ways this thing goes: a) if it is advantaging the passenger and b) if it is advantaging the airline.

So passenger Mr. Jones arrives two hours early for his flight with a discounted ticket and Southwest has a departure 45 minutes out with seats available and the flight Mr. Jones is booked on is oversold by 50 seats (not unusual for WN). Southwest offers to put Mr. Jones on earlier flight for no charge. Mr. Jones agrees, Southwest priority tags his bags, he goes through security and off on to the plane and adios. a) Mr. Jones gets to his destination earlier and b) Southwest has one less passenger to be concerned with paying DBC.

Scenario B: Mr. Jones arrives two hours early with a discounted ticket and Southwest has a departure 45 minutes out with seats available and Mr. Jones wants to change to the earlier flight. The later flight has seats still available. WN is entitled to charge him the difference in the fare (if required), plus the change fee. Whether that actually happens or not is another question. Generally speaking, check in agents are not going to go through the exercise of reissuing a ticket. Charging a change fee is easier, so they will likely just charge the change fee and put him on the earlier flight. This way, he travels on the same ticket and the carrier picks up an additional fee, which covers to some degree the loss of revenue on the later flight.

Now I do not know WNs procedures. What I do know is the reality of airport operations, having overseen one myself. When you have a lot of aircraft on the ground and a lot of people in front of you, the idea is to process them and get them on their way quickly. However, this said, you also do not want to leave money on the table. If there are change fees, we collect them. If there are ticket reissuances to be done, an assessment is made regarding the kind of change which needs to be made and if the add coll is small, we just collect the change fee. If the add collect is large, then we do go through the exercise of reissuing the ticket. It is a question of balancing the processing of passengers and maintaining the quality of the operation vs. collecting incremental revenue through fees and ticket reissues. In the grand scheme, ticket reissues fall way down the list. The priority is a) check in then b) add collect then c) ticket reissue. An eye is always kept toward watching flights to mitigate oversells and if possible, moving passengers to flights which are not full at our expense if necessary so as to not pay DBC. Paying cash DBC is the absolute worst thing you can do at a station and is the one thing that is to be avoided at all costs. If you have to give away 10 tickets to avoid 1 cash DBC, then you do it, because the likelihood that all ten tickets will be used is far less then giving away up to $400 to the passenger, plus transporting them at our expense to their destination.

We can discuss "rules and regulations" until we die and roll over in our graves. Its the reality of the situation at the airport that dictates our actions and it takes good supervisors and managers to make sure that the operation runs smoothly and that personnel think on their feet instead of just operating as a robot, simply checking in people and saying "next".

baw716

I stood by on JBU not long ago from JFK to PBI. I simply got to the airport hours earlier than planned. There was no charge for this (I assume the original ticket would have been the same price on both flights). They seemed happy to get me going (plane left with a number of empty seats).

My spouse, as a top elite on several carriers, does this all the time. She gets out of the meeting early, or the flights are running many hours late.

As a 90% business traveler, this would keep her away from WN. Her tickets are always bought by schedule, not by price, so sometimes they are amazingly low, other times sky high. Also, if you are taking the time to clear non-rev standbys, wouldn't that just anger any revenue people waiting for a seat?

Do WN's business elites have better privileges in this regard?

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 27): The only reason a WN passenger wants to standby is because they booked the cheaper fare later in the day hoping they could be put on the actual flight they wanted for that same fare.

um...not true. I booked a flight on a cheap fare knowing full well that fare was available on an early flight. I got to the airport early because I did not like the college I visited and it was pointless to sit around and do nothing. I told my parents that there would be a change fee involved and we gladly (although after some argument and a little help from me and the agent who explained what it appears others have been told) put up the fee. I know many people schedule becuase a meeting is supposed to last until a centain time and it ends early. Nobody can help that...so your generalization is wrong. Maybe I'm reading what you say wrong, but many WN passengers would fly standby for the reason I mentioned, and not for your reason.

Still nobody has confirmed, there is no change fee for full fare tickets, correct?

Quoting FLAIRPORT (Reply 31): Still nobody has confirmed, there is no change fee for full fare tickets, correct?

Who in his right mind would pay a change fee?! (With a full fare, just get a full refund and then rebook!) This is why there is no charge with full fare changes, and that is why airlines offer the full fare in the first place.

Quoting FLAIRPORT (Reply 31): Still nobody has confirmed, there is no change fee for full fare tickets, correct?

That is correct, there is no change fee for full-fare tickets on Southwest. They are fully refundable and changeable.

They don't want people standing around barefoot in the terminal for that long, just in case there is no room on the first few flights.

Quoting Flightopsguy (Reply 30): Do WN's business elites have better privileges in this regard?

WN 'business elite'?? ROFL!!!!       

Quoting ScottB (Reply 33): That is correct, there is no change fee for full-fare tickets on Southwest.

There are no change fees on ANY WN tickets - you just pay the difference to today's new fare when you make a change.

Quoting AKelley728 (Reply 35): WN 'business elite'?? ROFL!!!!

I don't quite understand what you're laughing about as WN has a pretty good share of business travelers, especially on the intra-Texas routes

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 37): Quoting AKelley728 (Reply 35): WN 'business elite'?? ROFL!!!! I don't quite understand what you're laughing about as WN has a pretty good share of business travelers, especially on the intra-Texas routes

I think the point was that WN doesn't have "business elites" because while they have a good amount of business travelers, they do not have different tiers in their FF program. There are no "elites" of which to speak.

Quote: SWA’s business *elites*

The *elite* perk SWA offers is a Companion Pass after obtaining 100 Rapid Reward Credits per year. This was easily obtainable when RR was at Double Bonus credits for online bookings up until the end of 2003. Then it went to an extra half credit per online booking thru April of this year. Now it’s a straight 1 for 1.  

But that’s bonus for ya. The Companion Pass is an exceedingly valuable reward and a fairly unique one. Even on free Rapin Reward tickets, you can take your companion (essentially doubling that reward).

AirTran offers something similar (but one can only use their CP on revenue tickets).

Of course, SWA’s best customers view their no BS attitude, reasonable fares, reliable operations, extremely fair ticketing policy (ie: no ludicrous change fees, transferability) as unparalleled *elite* benefits.

No special lines or pre-boarding but that doesn’t effect me anymore as I was [sarcasm]lucky enough[/sarcasm] to have the neuro-docs and rehab docs assign me a cane last year.

(That’s an involuntary elite club no one wants to join)

And another *elite* perk is redeeming reward tickets. Virtually no capacity controls sans a handful (I think six) of blackout dates. If there is a seat available; its fair game for reward travel.

If I want to travel LAS-MHT tomorrow on a RR ticket, I can with no fees. If I decide not to go, there are no tacky charges for re-depositing those RR credits in my account.

Elite enough?

Way more than fretting over an upgrade on a 1.5 hour flight – that is if that service has not gone RJs yet.

Of course, there are a few benefits extended to their top 100 customers (which I am not, however I regularly interact with 2). But they don’t seem to advertise those.

 

Cjpark, maybe you should look up the definition of "Internet Troll" cos I think you wear that title quite well, especially on the subject of WN and Love Field/Wright Amendment issues...

Please see the following link... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 36): There are no change fees on ANY WN tickets - you just pay the difference to today's new fare when you make a change.

Excellent point. They also do not charge 100 dollars to Re-issue non-refundable tickets towards future travel.

No Other US airline offers no change fee on non-refundable tickets. It is always 100 dollars (or less in some cases) plus the fare difference.

There are a few incorrect assumptions and a lot of BS being thrown back and forth on this thread:

1. You don't have to pay a penalty to change your reservation, you simply have to pay the difference between the original fare and the unrestricted walk-up fare.
2. If you've already paid the walk-up fare, you may change to an earlier/later departure without cost (over the same routing).
3. If the alternate flight is full, you can stand-by for any no-shows. You will be prioritize between reaccommodated passengers and nonrevs.


WN's policy of not waiving the fare differential is justified as they do not charge a service fee for changing the reservation. They simply collect the difference between a nonchangeable ticket and a changeable one. If the desired flight is available, you can simply pay the difference and get a confirmed seat. If the flight is full, most folks will not want to pay the difference if there is no guarantee of getting on. There simply isn't enough time to process additional collections in the time alloted for clearing standby's. That's why WN's policy is sensible and fair.

[Edited 2005-07-20 22:59:39]

Quoting FLAIRPORT (Reply 31): I know many people schedule because a meeting is supposed to last until a certain time and it ends early. Nobody can help that...so your generalization is wrong. Maybe I'm reading what you say wrong, but many WN passengers would fly standby for the reason I mentioned, and not for your reason.

I of course wasn't generalizing every WN passenger. I realize there are plenty of reasons out there, true or not, that would cause a passenger to arrive at the airport multiple hours prior to their original flight yet just enough time to make the next flight. However all of WN fliers had the opportunity to book the earlier flight and chose not to thus their policy. When a passenger books WN they are offered all of the flights between those cities.
Business fliers on WN generally book the refundable ticket so that they can pretty much jump on any DAL-HOU, OAK-ONT or MDW-CLE flight or wherever the top performing business routes are for WN. They know their plans change, meetings get canceled, or meetings get out earlier so they book their travel accordingly. WN has great walk-up, refundable fares.
Your circumstance isn't one that happens to a lot of people and most visiting a school in a city of the size to maintain WN service would likely visit the city when not visiting the school and still catch their original flight.
Airlines that fly based on hub and spoke offer flights based on connecting time and there are 1000 options for a flier to go LGA-LAX, so if passenger arrives at LGA for their 4:00 PM ATL flight at 2:00 PM it isn't too much trouble for DL to offer the 3:00 PM flight. DL doesn't expect the flier to go through all of their options before booking.

Quoting FLAIRPORT (Reply 31): Still nobody has confirmed, there is no change fee for full fare tickets, correct?

Of course not. Or else passengers would just refund their refundable ticket and buy another ticket on their flight of choice.

SCX,

Thank you I am honored to know that I have pissed off yet another mindless member of the WN praetorian guard. Please add me to your respected users list.

Seriously just trying to keep you guys honest.

Quoting Mrmoose (Thread starter): Seemingly it does not cost them anything.

They have to be consistent and firm with the policy of requiring an upgrade to the y fare for catching earlier flights. It's a significant source of revenue.

Her bag is with the other bags for that ticketed flight. It takes time to find 1 bag out of 100s. The pax and bag have to travel together. It could take upwards of 30mins to find that bag. And looking for a black bag with a handle and wheels is no fun task. (I just used that description because thats the favorite response I get alot when I'm asked to find a bag.) There needs to be a wider selection of bag colors. Looking through 20+ bags that look alike is no fun task.

The fare difference is much less on WN also, so paying the change fee is minimal.

Example: 39 internet fare CLE-MDW, decide to change ticket full fare is 95 (56 Dollars difference). (plus Tax)


Other airlines, 50-100 dollar change fee for confirmed, or 50 dollars for stand-by.

I heard it best put by a WN CSA, you can't buy a ticket for the matinee and expect to get into the evening show. Its no different on an airline.

Quoting BUFjets (Reply 26): Usually, the passenger who wants to stand by is a business traveler who got out of a meeting early. Or, the vacation traveler who got to the airport extra early to make sure they didn't get stuck in traffic.

The business traveler probably bought the full fare, so its usually not a problem. Person on vacation, what they want to go back to work earlier.... If you want to go early and have that flexibility, then you should pay for it, I don't see any reason why it should be any different.

How about it this way, if you paid full fare for the flexibility to get on any flight, and someone with their supersaver leisure plus fare walks up and gets to do the same, wouldn't you be a bit miffed?

Quoting Flightopsguy (Reply 30): Also, if you are taking the time to clear non-rev standbys, wouldn't that just anger any revenue people waiting for a seat?

Believe me, non-revs are WAAAYYY behind anyone that paid for their ticket, even if they are on standby, the way it should be. Ask someone who tries to nonrev between DAL and HOU, they'll tell you all about that policy.

Quoting Flightopsguy (Reply 30): Do WN's business elites have better privileges in this regard?

Nope, its first-come-first-served at WN, no elites.

GreatChecko

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 41): Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 36): There are no change fees on ANY WN tickets - you just pay the difference to today's new fare when you make a change. Excellent point. They also do not charge 100 dollars to Re-issue non-refundable tickets towards future travel. No Other US airline offers no change fee on non-refundable tickets. It is always 100 dollars (or less in some cases) plus the fare difference.

True. Which is why WN's policy is better when changing your outbound (or anything requiring a ticket reissue), while the other carriers' policies are far better for simple changes to the return and/or standby travel on the return.

Change your outbound or the whole ticket at WN? No fee, just pay the fare difference. At other carriers, you pay a fee PLUS the fare difference if any.

Change just your return or travel standby on WN? No fee, but you pay the fare difference to the full walkup fare. At other carriers, you can standby for free or a small surcharge, or get a confirmed seat for just the change fee. There usually isn't a fare difference unless the same class of service isn't available.

So again, there are pluses and minuses to both ways of doing business.