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OPNLguy
Topic Author
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More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:21 pm

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...es/072805dnbuswright.18226876.html

Use www.bugmenot.com if you prefer not to register....

After Wright eventually gets repealed, methinks someone is going to chronicle AA's anti-Wright efforts as a college textbook example of how -not- to run a campaign....  Wink
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
GSPSPOT
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:47 pm

I still don't know what the issue is. Most other really big metro areas have multiple airports, and it works just fine. The WA has outlived any usefulness it ever had.
Great Lakes, great life.
 
cjpark
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RE: A New Twist On The Wright Amendment Debate

Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:06 pm

This is just AA telling the truth of the matter to smaller cities on what repeal of the WA will mean to air service to their markets. This is the truth that WN does not want out. But of course since WN does not serve those markets why should they care?

The concern over loss of service to small markets was the reason for the bill filed in the Senate to close Love Field down to commercial traffic by the two good Senators from Iowa and Oklahoma.

By the way how was the Pep Rally yesterday OPNL?
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
RJNUT
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:37 pm

Why Doesn't AA use that same logic in Chicago and start leaving al those close-in cities to ORD, like MLI or MSN..

It would also help free up air space in that region

Soundsl like double-speak to me!

American is GREAT at that!
 
dadoftyler
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:57 pm

CJ,

Bullshit. AA/AE know full well they will *not* dismantle their largest hub and move half of their operation to DAL. Further, even if they put a token operation there, it won't be with RJs.

True, removing anti-competitive restrictions at Love could negatively impact boardings at airports in the Dallas catchment area, like Waco, but that same exact thing would happen to them if Southwest did what you want--and opened longhaul service at DFW. It's a function of high fares from small airports vs. low fares from relatively close bigger airports. If AA/AE wanted to tell the truth, they'd explain it that way--then add in the caveat that because of their high operating costs, if they lowered the fares in those small airports to compete with Southwest (from DAL OR DFW) then AA/AE wouldn't make any money. Typical of AA--they never let the facts get in the way of a good lie.

And you know that, of course, but you can't see past your own anti-Southwest and anti-Love field biases.

And the pep rally was great--gotta hand it to our folks in PR. How'd they know to pick the only July day in memory with afternoon temperatures in the 70's?

dadoftyler
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:59 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Thread starter):
After Wright eventually gets repealed, methinks someone is going to chronicle AA's anti-Wright efforts as a college textbook example of how -not- to run a campaign....


Same will be said of SWA.

Quoting Dadoftyler (Reply 4):
And you know that, of course, but you can't see past your own anti-Southwest and anti-Love field biases.

And you are unable to see past the Dallas/Fort Worth region's lack of demand for two airports providing passenger service.

[Edited 2005-07-28 16:03:26]
 
thegreatchecko
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:05 pm

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 5):
And you are unable to see past the Dallas/Fort Worth region's lack of demand for two airports providing passenger service.

Doesn't seem to be a problem right now....didn't we have three airports doing this at one time?

GreatChecko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
exFATboy
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:05 pm

I still believe that AA's threats of a major split of operations between DAL and DFW if Wright is repealed is nothing more than a scare tactic.

It simply makes no sense at all - why would AA move part of the DFW hub to DAL just because DAL may be a little more convenient for a small fraction of the total Metroplex market? There's simply no logic to this. Yes, there might be downward fare pressure, especially on flights where they might have to offer a little incentive to some customers to drive to DFW instead of DAL, but that's about it.

And that downward fare pressure is what AA's "keep Wright" campaign is all about. If Wright is repealed and DAL remains open with the existing Master Plan, AA is likely to set up a small operation there aimed at the location-sensitive business travelers, a few other destinations with high local O&D demand, and perhaps a few flights to other AA hubs. A small number of flights out of DFW would be ended in favour of the new DAL service, but that's about it. AA isn't going to cut off its nose to spite its face, and a small, competive operation at DAL would allow AA to have the best of both worlds - effective competition for the local O&D market and a world-class hub.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:08 pm

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 6):
Doesn't seem to be a problem right now....didn't we have three airports doing this at one time?

And how many empty gates at each facililty?
 
cjpark
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:11 pm

Quoting Dadoftyler (Reply 4):
Typical of AA--they never let the facts get in the way of a good lie.

If that is not the pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is?

By the way have you started looking at homes in Austin or Houston yet? Seems like you all will be moving soon anyway.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
thegreatchecko
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:24 pm

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 9):
By the way have you started looking at homes in Austin or Houston yet? Seems like you all will be moving soon anyway.

Man you must love paying high fares and love those wonderful perks you get flying a worldclass (starting to laugh) airline like AA (ROTFL).

Damn, I wish I had the money to pay through the nose anytime I wanted to fly out of DFW. I probably won't go back to DFW for a while thanks to AA and their pain in the ass pricing. Is that what you want people to do?

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 8):
And how many empty gates at each facililty?

Love, north terminal.

DFW, a whole lot...

I think we've argued that one over and over again. DFW has over expanded and AA makes any attempt at "competition" difficult. Love is limited by a law that should've been gone years ago. So technically, they both have too many gates.

Oh and wouldn't high airfares have a part in keeping the demand low?

Alliance, well no one ever remembers them or has any problems with them existing with passenger service or cargo for that matter. I haven't actually been over there, so I don't know how many gates we are talking about. Two, three...

GreatChecko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:26 pm

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 10):
I think we've argued that one over and over again. DFW has over expanded and AA makes any attempt at "competition" difficult. Love is limited by a law that should've been gone years ago. So technically, they both have too many gates.

DFW was built to support what the market demands, DAL is surplus.

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 10):
Oh and wouldn't high airfares have a part in keeping the demand low?

That's a false argument. If SWA operated at DFW it's passengers transfer from one facility to another, you aren't going to magically find additional passengers. Market demand is based on population and travel projections. It doesn't matter one bit which airport the low fares are found at.

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 10):
Alliance, well no one ever remembers them or has any problems with them existing with passenger service or cargo for that matter. I haven't actually been over there, so I don't know how many gates we are talking about.

Alliance is a non-starter for passenger service and serves the GA/Industrial market just as DAL would. Both (DAL/AFW) would help DFW in terms of GA traffic capacity which would maximize passenger service efficiency at DFW.

[Edited 2005-07-28 16:32:27]
 
thegreatchecko
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:30 pm

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 10):
Oh and wouldn't high airfares have a part in keeping the demand low?

So this has nothing to do with it?

And AA being a bully at DFW has nothing to do with it either?

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 11):
DAL is surplus.

So all those people flying to HOU, SAT, LIT, OKC, ELP, AMA, etc. should be over at DFW with AA. Man doesn't competition suck.

GreatChecko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:33 pm

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 12):
So all those people flying to HOU, SAT, LIT, OKC, ELP, AMA, etc. should be over at DFW with AA. Man doesn't competition suck.

No, they'd be on WN flying to those destinations with the same fares they enjoy at DAL.
 
thegreatchecko
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:38 pm

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 13):
No, they'd be on WN flying to those destinations with the same fares they enjoy at DAL.

Okay lets just assume that would be true, however unlikely, it might happen, how about answering the other questions that conveniently have been ignored?

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 10):
wouldn't high airfares have a part in keeping the demand low?



Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 12):
And AA being a bully at DFW has nothing to do with it either?

Thanks!

GreatChecko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
thegreatchecko
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:45 pm

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 11):
That's a false argument. If SWA operated at DFW it's passengers transfer from one facility to another, you aren't going to magically find additional passengers. Market demand is based on population and travel projections. It doesn't matter one bit which airport the low fares are found at.

My appologies, Boeing 7E7, missed that one.

Thanks, I'll have a reply in a second.

GreatChecko

[Edited 2005-07-28 16:56:59]
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
thegreatchecko
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:56 pm

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 11):
That's a false argument. If SWA operated at DFW it's passengers transfer from one facility to another, you aren't going to magically find additional passengers. Market demand is based on population and travel projections. It doesn't matter one bit which airport the low fares are found at.

I have trouble seeing how its false. So I must now assumer that this Southwest Effect the DOT talks about is just propaganda. I must have had too much koolaid today, sorry.  crazy 

I hate to say it, but for an "analyst" to say this I'm shocked, I'm wondering what your economic basis for such a statement is.

Alright, please explain to me how lowering prices will not increase demand. This is where I have a major problem with your argument; its against most economic theory and principles.

Furthermore, this argument could only include the WA markets, because WN doesn't fly farther than those out of DAL thanks to the WA.

What you are basically saying is that that if AA lowered their priced on their DFW routes and matched WN's supposed pricing today on their Chicago routes, their planes would be just as full. That's ludicrous.

According to your reasoning, as I see it, a fare sale is just a way to purposely lower your profits because it doesn't stimulate more people to buy seats on your planes.

I must have missed something or you forgot that Econ-101 class you took in high school.

GreatChecko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:58 pm

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 10):
Oh and wouldn't high airfares have a part in keeping the demand low?

This is only experienced by the O&D pax. Connecting pax pay the same fares between markets regardless of the interline carrier. It just depends on the availability of seats on each flight segment. The fares are not any higher at DFW than they are at any other airport on any interline carrier. The seat availability, thus low fare availability, is low. This is the market that an unrestricted Southwest would pick up at DFW (as they do at every other market they serve) in affect hurting AA by pulling away the short hop, high yield inside seven day ticket buyer.


However....

Connecting pax seat absorption on Southwest at DAL or DFW (given the option of connecting through repeal of Wright/move to DFW) would have the same impact on SWA O&D passengers at DAL or DFW. You may not pay as much as mainline on Southwest, but you can pretty much kiss the $49-79 fares goodbye if you're an O&D passenger in Dallas unless you buy 14-21 days out (an action one would have to take to get a low fare on AA at DFW). The advanced purchase pax connecting will get those fares. O&D will pay upwards of $99. Due to increased loads, the walk up pax are going to get nailed with the $200+ fare. There's no way around it. This is how hub supply and demand works. So even if Wright is repealed, the O&D pax WN has now will pay higher fares, not because of competition within the market, but because of competition from the connecting markets and a reduction in available low fares absorbed by the connecting passengers.

If AA is such a bully, then why does every other carrier do well at DFW? Delta failed because the market cannot sufficiently provide enough O&D traffic to support two hub carriers to the level of profitability required of the established networks when you intermingle mainline and regional traffic. Only the Chicago market can, more so than New York.

[Edited 2005-07-28 17:15:21]
 
OPNLguy
Topic Author
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 12:17 am

Quoting RJNUT (Reply 3):
Soundsl like double-speak to me!

American is GREAT at that!

It's more of the same, IMHO...

Back in April of this year, the 9th, IIRC, there was an article in the Longview, Texas paper about how (were Wright repealed) American Eagle just might have to pull their RJs out of GGG and replace them with (horror movie music rising in backround) airplanes with PROPELLERS. Gasp! Oh, the horror and inhumanity of it all....  

[Edited 2005-07-28 17:18:46]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 12:18 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 18):
Texas paper about how (were Wright repealed) American Eagle just might have to pull their RJs out of GGG and replace them with (horror movie music rising in backround) airplanes with PROPELLERS. Gasp! Oh, the horror and inhumanity of it all....

That's going to happen anyway. Those little gas sucking RJ's can't cut it anymore.
 
typhaerion
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 12:28 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 17):
Due to increased loads, the walk up pax are going to get nailed with the $200+ fare.

Ah, my friend, lets all take a moment and cry for their fare of $200+ with a cap at $600 even on walk up when now they are paying $1300 to $1400 for that same ticket inside of that 2 week window.  sarcastic 

And yes, this is going to hurt AA, why do you think that they are lobbying so hard. On this I have no real opinion because while I woul dhate to pay $1400 dollars for a walk up ticket and can sympathize with the passenger flying out of the D/FW area, I do not want AA to suffer for this. We have enough legacies in the toilet right now that one more would just make the crowd already there a larger crowd. And none of it helps the industry at all.

I do however, believe that it is AAs own fault for the empty gates at DFW because they are so good at defending their hub. In fact, AA is one of the best hub defenders out there (Miami is the same way). So if there are empty gates at DFW and DAL, you have no farther to look then AA for the reason.
For some, the sky is the limit. For us, it is only the beginning... -- Jack Hunt
 
typhaerion
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 12:31 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 18):
Gasp! Oh, the horror and inhumanity of it all....

It must be nice only having to deal with one fleet type and no RJ's... cool 
For some, the sky is the limit. For us, it is only the beginning... -- Jack Hunt
 
OPNLguy
Topic Author
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 12:32 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 19):
That's going to happen anyway. Those little gas sucking RJ's can't cut it anymore.

I tend to agree, but it's rather disingenuous of them to link the issue to Wright when it's a separate issue....
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
thegreatchecko
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Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:34 pm

RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 12:38 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 17):
This is only experienced by the O&D pax.

Isn't that what we are talking about, Dallas/ Fort Worth, Texas. Aren't the higher fares experienced by D/FW residents. Last I checked DAL is in Dallas and the majority of the passengers through there are O&D.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 17):
This is the market that an unrestricted Southwest would pick up at DFW (as they do at every other market they serve) in affect hurting AA by pulling away the short hop, high yield inside seven day ticket buyer.

And how this is bad, I'm at a loss. Its a free market at its best. AA would be forced to slim down and increase their efficiency to compete, which would make both companies stronger in the end.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 17):
So even if Wright is repealed, the O&D pax WN has now will pay higher fares, not because of competition within the market, but because of competition from the connecting markets and a reduction in available low fares absorbed by the connecting passengers.

So if this is a problem, why isn't it seen in MDW and MCO and all the other supposed connecting cities for WN. Its because WN focuses on the point-to-point O&D market. The so called $49 fares are part of a sale (7-21 day advance purchase) and are usually aimed at a certain city pair. Full fare as it stands on the intra-Texas markets hovers around $100.

Also, looking at the WN track record, they would rather have full flights at the lower prices and add capacity than raising prices, that is why they are considered THE Low Fare Airline. (Yes, I know WN is not always the cheapest)

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 17):
If AA is such a bully, then why does every other carrier do well at DFW? Delta failed because the market cannot sufficiently provide enough O&D traffic to support two hub carriers to the level of profitability required of the established networks when you intermingle mainline and regional traffic.

I'm trying to think of another carrier that has 80-100 flights a day out of DFW....

Wait I don't think there are any.

That's what's being asked of WN. If Delta wasn't able to do it, then why would WN be able to do it? WN would be operating 150 flights a day max out of there compared to the 900+ that AA has. When you have that kind of power to cross-subsidize routes, then you would see how AA can be a bully. Combine that with the fact that AA has the money to do it, it would never work. AA has created a superhub that is difficult if not impossible to break into effectively and that is great for AA bad for anyone trying to compete on a broad scale like WN would.

Airtran in ATL: They have been working years at being a successful competitor to DL. DL financial problems have also been a gain for FL. Unlike DL, AA is in the position to be able to "defend their turf" by dropping airfares to prices no one can sustain.

GreatChecko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
OPNLguy
Topic Author
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 12:42 am

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 23):
Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 17):
If AA is such a bully, then why does every other carrier do well at DFW? Delta failed because the market cannot sufficiently provide enough O&D traffic to support two hub carriers to the level of profitability required of the established networks when you intermingle mainline and regional traffic.



Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 23):
I'm trying to think of another carrier that has 80-100 flights a day out of DFW....

Wait I don't think there are any.

That's what's being asked of WN. If Delta wasn't able to do it, then why would WN be able to do it? WN would be operating 150 flights a day max out of there compared to the 900+ that AA has. When you have that kind of power to cross-subsidize routes, then you would see how AA can be a bully. Combine that with the fact that AA has the money to do it, it would never work. AA has created a superhub that is difficult if not impossible to break into effectively and that is great for AA bad for anyone trying to compete on a broad scale like WN would.

You beat me to it....  Wink
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 12:47 am

Quoting Typhaerion (Reply 20):
I do however, believe that it is AAs own fault for the empty gates at DFW because they are so good at defending their hub. In fact, AA is one of the best hub defenders out there (Miami is the same way). So if there are empty gates at DFW and DAL, you have no farther to look then AA for the reason.

The gates are empty because the market can't support two hub carriers and barely one. DFW benefits from geographic location and the connectivity that location provides.

Quoting Typhaerion (Reply 20):
Ah, my friend, lets all take a moment and cry for their fare of $200+ with a cap at $600 even on walk up when now they are paying $1300 to $1400 for that same ticket inside of that 2 week window.

You can get to any city Southwest would serve from Dallas on AA for under $200 each way. One only has to go take a look. I just bought a ticket MSN to DFW RT leaving Saturday returning Monday for $435 with taxes. And that's on an 44 seat RJ with limited seats.
 
typhaerion
Posts: 425
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:00 am

Then why did I find this, a business "walk-up" fare to chicago tomorrow for $794?


AMERICAN AIRLINES
2382 DFW Dallas/ Fort Worth 07/29/2005 07:00 AM MDW Chicago 07/29/2005 09:15 AM M80

AMERICAN AIRLINES
2387 MDW Chicago 07/29/2005 06:25 PM DFW Dallas/ Fort Worth 07/29/2005 08:52 PM M80


Average Fare per Person - 776.00 USD

1 Adult
776.00 USD
18.90 USD
794.90 USD

Your Total Price 794.90 USD

To ORD it is $1007.40

So there isnt a cheaper option.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 25):
The gates are empty because the market can't support two hub carriers and barely one. DFW benefits from geographic location and the connectivity that location provides.

There are millions of travellers out of the Dallas region that I am sure would start flying more often if they had a cheaper option. The gates are empty because two hub carriers cannot afford to be at DFW beacuse one of them is AA. DL is a pushover when it comes to invading their hubs. And AA drove them out just like they make it hard for everyone else to be there.
For some, the sky is the limit. For us, it is only the beginning... -- Jack Hunt
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:03 am

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 23):
Isn't that what we are talking about, Dallas/ Fort Worth, Texas. Aren't the higher fares experienced by D/FW residents. Last I checked DAL is in Dallas and the majority of the passengers through there are O&D.

Yes. And the fares on SWA will also increase for Dallas residents with the repeal of Wright.

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 23):
And how this is bad, I'm at a loss. Its a free market at its best. AA would be forced to slim down and increase their efficiency to compete, which would make both companies stronger in the end.

Did I say it was bad? I only pointed out the reality.

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 23):
So if this is a problem, why isn't it seen in MDW and MCO and all the other supposed connecting cities for WN.

Because the geographic location of DFW benefits leisure connecting traffic to a greater extent. ORD offsets connecting demand at MDW. MCO is much like DFW, but less geographically desireable. It has higher O&D demand due to Disney. Each market has it's own traits. You can't take a model at one hab and assume it will be the same at another.

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 23):
If Delta wasn't able to do it, then why would WN be able to do it?

Because DL was serving small markets which support the larger markets to make it work. DL and WN have completely different operating models and the two cannot be compared on any scale. You comparing an airline that hits large markets to one that serves every market it can. The spoke cities simply don't have enough demand to support such a network as DL and AA operated. No spoke demand = insufficient mainline demand.

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 23):
AA is in the position to be able to "defend their turf" by dropping airfares to prices no one can sustain.

Maybe against another struggling carrier, but Southwest should have more than enough clout to offset that. Now who's spreading fear?

Quoting Typhaerion (Reply 26):
Then why did I find this, a business "walk-up" fare to chicago tomorrow for $794?

Because your traveling between two AA hubs on a busy travel day on a full aircraft. The fare is high because of low seat availability. You should do some reading on how fares are established. It would do you some good. By the way, pre-tax that's less than $299 each way. You could also connect on NWA for $523. They have better seat availability. Or through Tulsa on AA for $620.

[Edited 2005-07-28 18:09:33]
 
2H4
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:04 am




Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 25):
You can get to any city Southwest would serve from Dallas on AA for under $200 each way.



Yeah...that makes the price-gouging on their other routes look like a bargain.  Wink


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
typhaerion
Posts: 425
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:27 pm

RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:06 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 25):
You can get to any city Southwest would serve from Dallas on AA for under $200 each way. One only has to go take a look. I just bought a ticket MSN to DFW RT leaving Saturday returning Monday for $435 with taxes. And that's on an 44 seat RJ with limited seats.

And boss, why is the same fare you booked for $435 in the oppoiste direction of the same dates $630.40.

If that is not gouging the DFW region a little, I dont know what is.

[Edited 2005-07-28 18:09:21]
For some, the sky is the limit. For us, it is only the beginning... -- Jack Hunt
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18243
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:09 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 2):
This is just AA telling the truth of the matter to smaller cities on what repeal of the WA will mean to air service to their markets

Why do those cities deseve air service if they are not profitable on a segment basis, or even a beyond basis?
I don't take responsibility at all
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:11 am




Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 27):
And the fares on SWA will also increase for Dallas residents with the repeal of Wright.



By how much? All of them, or only certain ones?


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:13 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 30):
Why do those cities deseve air service if they are not profitable on a segment basis, or even a beyond basis?

I have to agree, if not profitable move on, this is business and not a charity!
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
1MillionFlyer
Posts: 1937
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:14 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
AA's profitable Dallas hub basiclly helps "subsidize" keeping these stations around.

What about cities that have Essential Air Services (EAS) payouts, are they going to drop those cities too?

Give me a break!
Golf Foxtrot you are cleared for departure
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:15 am

Quoting Typhaerion (Reply 29):
And boss, why is the same fare you booked for $435 in the oppoiste direction of the same dates $630.40.


Direction is irrelivant, its all about availability. You're paying more because on that particular date, fewer seats are available on the route you've chosen. If you were to buy a ticket now on the same trip I have, my purchase changed the seat availability and thus increases the fare basis for the next passenger. This causes people buying tickets to look to another carrier that has more seats available using the same fare basis. All interline carriers have the same fares, they just have different seat availability per flight. This is why some fare increases/decreases stick, and other's don't. The other airlines either agree to move up/down, or they don't.

As an example. If I flew on Delta from LAX-SLC-ORD or LAX-SLC-MDW the fare basis is the same. The difference is that the flight from SLC to ORD could be a 767 vs a 737 to MDW. As a result, they are more lower fare seats on the ORD segment vs. the MDW segment. However, pax demand for ORD may offset the aircraft capacity gain making the MDW fare lower as a result of more available seats on a particular flight to MDW.

[Edited 2005-07-28 18:29:56]
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26286
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:17 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 18):
Back in April of this year, the 9th, IIRC, there was an article in the Longview, Texas paper about how (were Wright repealed) American Eagle just might have to pull their RJs out of GGG and replace them with (horror movie music rising in backround) airplanes with PROPELLERS. Gasp! Oh, the horror and inhumanity of it all....

American Eagle has no RJ service to GGG. It is all Saabs.
a.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:29 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 17):
This is only experienced by the O&D pax. Connecting pax pay the same fares between markets regardless of the interline carrier. It just depends on the availability of seats on each flight segment. The fares are not any higher at DFW than they are at any other airport on any interline carrier.

Rubbish. Have you ever actually "analysed" the existing umpty-million North American fares ? Some airlines charge LESS THAN others on identical city pairs - it's called competition. Just because the legacies all charge roughly the same fares as each other, doesn't mean that everyone does. Fares are also based on the dominance that a carrier has out of the city in question. Fares out of GSO on US to domestic points connecting through CLT are higher than fares out of RDU to the same domestic points, also connecting through CLT, even though costs and mileage are about the same This is because WN IS at RDU, but ISN'T at GSO. Sad but true.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:34 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 31):
By how much? All of them, or only certain ones?

On an average all fares paid out fo DAL will increase, but it would depend on the amount of connecting traffic for a particular flight. Just as you can find a low fare on occassion due to low booking on American out of DFW you will also be able to find the $49 fare on occassion on Southwest, but you better buy early. Right now, SWA pax don't experience this at DAL because connecting traffic is not permitted.

As an example. Lets say you want to fly from LAS-DAL-MSY on WN. Right now you pay $99 for a one way non-stop. With connecting service, there will be more flight options for that market so if $99 is not available on a non-stop it might be available through DAL connecting. This person then absorbs the $49 fare from LAS to DAL and the $49 fare from DAL to MSY. If enough fares are absorbed, then that $49 ticket from DAL is now gone and the DAL pax pays the next higher fare of $79 to 99. This does not represent actual fares, but is an example of how the lower fare is absorbed by the connecting passengers.

[Edited 2005-07-28 18:40:36]
 
aaway
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:07 am

RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:38 am

Boeing 7E7,
I'm in agreement with you here:

"This is only experienced by the O&D pax. Connecting pax pay the same fares between markets regardless of the interline carrier. It just depends on the availability of seats on each flight segment. The fares are not any higher at DFW than they are at any other airport on any interline carrier. The seat availability, thus low fare availability, is low. This is the market that an unrestricted Southwest would pick up at DFW (as they do at every other market they serve) in affect hurting AA by pulling away the short hop, high yield inside seven day ticket buyer."


Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 17):
Connecting pax seat absorption on Southwest at DAL or DFW (given the option of connecting through repeal of Wright/move to DFW) would have the same impact on SWA O&D passengers at DAL or DFW. You may not pay as much as mainline on Southwest, but you can pretty much kiss the $49-79 fares goodbye if you're an O&D passenger in Dallas unless you buy 14-21 days out (an action one would have to take to get a low fare on AA at DFW). The advanced purchase pax connecting will get those fares. O&D will pay upwards of $99. Due to increased loads, the walk up pax are going to get nailed with the $200+ fare. There's no way around it. This is how hub supply and demand works. So even if Wright is repealed, the O&D pax WN has now will pay higher fares, not because of competition within the market, but because of competition from the connecting markets and a reduction in available low fares absorbed by the connecting passengers.

Don' tread too far down this path. WN is not attempting to position itself as the 'most convenient' HUB carrier in the DFW area.
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:40 am




Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 37):
On an average all fares paid out fo DAL will increase,



Ok, if this is true, are we talking about an average increase of hundreds of dollars? Tens of dollars? A few bucks across the board?

I only ask because this proclamation sounds like a rather vague scare tactic.




Not that pro-Wrighters would ever lower themselves to such standards.  Wink


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:48 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 36):
Rubbish. Have you ever actually "analysed" the existing umpty-million North American fares ? Some airlines charge LESS THAN others on identical city pairs - it's called competition.

They charge less because there are more seats available on a particular flight as a percentage of seats. And yes, I have analyzed the fares.

If you like, go to an airport and have an agent pull up a city pair and it's fares. You'll see the interline carriers that serve the particular market across the top. It will then show the availability of the fare basis. They can change to another carrier and you can see their availability in the same fare basis. One airline might have 10 seats for a flight at $100 and other might have none.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 39):
Ok, if this is true, are we talking about an average increase of hundreds of dollars? Tens of dollars? A few bucks across the board?

It all depends on the seats absorbed by the connecting pax. It could be $10 could be $100. Could be $200. It all depends on seat availability. Not a scare tactic, just a reality of a connecting market. You get a tour group of 50 kids going to Disney World from Phoenix connecting in DAL and you pick up the tab of the highest fare on those particular flights.

Quoting Aaway (Reply 38):
Don' tread too far down this path. WN is not attempting to position itself as the 'most convenient' HUB carrier in the DFW area.

Such an arrangement is not their goal, but the affect of the ability to connect is just that.

[Edited 2005-07-28 18:54:17]
 
stlgph
Posts: 11229
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:51 am

Quoting Typhaerion (Reply 26):
And AA drove them out just like they make it hard for everyone else to be there.

ah. so someone admits that Southwest is afraid of losing.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 30):
Why do those cities deseve air service if they are not profitable on a segment basis, or even a beyond basis?

it seems more than one person missed the lessons on corporate enterprising.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:53 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 40):
They charge less because there are more seats available on a particular flight as a percentage of seats. And yes, I have analyzed the fares.

Yes, that's called Fare Buckets - I am familiar with the concept. But the actual published fares are different for each carrier. There are a lot of YY fares too, that are valid on any carrier, but those are normally the unrestricted fares. The fare has to be valid for the Carrier AND the Selling Class and the route and the connecting points and the day of the week and the advanced purchase restrictions and and and. You oversimplify things enormously in your statement. The fare is NOT determined by the number of seats available - this is only true on LCC's. The fare is determined by the availability on a given selling class, which in turn is determined by the point of sale of the person making the query, the context (connection, stand-alone, round trip) that the flight is being sold, and the availability of the other flights in the connection (for most major carriers).
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:54 am




Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 40):
It all depends on the seats absorbed by the connecting pax. It could be $10 could be $100. Could be $200. It all depends on seat availability.



Ok, I see what you're saying, but there's a big difference between $10 and $200.

Surely there is currently an average ticket price paid to/from DAL...say, over the course of a year. If you were to make an educated guess as to how much that average ticket price would increase with the repeal of the W/A, what kind of numbers would you predict?


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:58 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 42):
The fare is NOT determined by the number of seats available

No, but the number of fares available in a particular class is. Thus, the absorbtion of a particular fare by passengers in affect increases the fares based on the availability of seats remaining on a flight. During what part of this conversation did you lose sight of what I was saying in the simplest of terms?
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 2:01 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 43):
Surely there is currently an average ticket price paid to/from DAL...say, over the course of a year. If you were to make an educated guess as to how much that average ticket price would increase with the repeal of the W/A, what kind of numbers would you predict?

On average, probably $60 each way depending on where you're going. Low density markets about $20-40 and high density markets $80-100.
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 2:10 am




Thanks for the straightforward reply, 7E7.


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 2:11 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 46):
Thanks for the straightforward reply, 7E7.

No problem.
 
cjpark
Posts: 1225
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:46 am

RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 2:17 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 22):
I tend to agree, but it's rather disingenuous of them to link the issue to Wright when it's a separate issue....

You mean sort of like linking the Wright Amendment to low fares?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 30):


Why do those cities deseve air service if they are not profitable on a segment basis, or even a beyond basis?

Why does your city need a highway? Think about it there is a market for feeder routes from smaller market cities.

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (Reply 33):
What about cities that have Essential Air Services (EAS) payouts, are they going to drop those cities too?

Go read the list and tell me if there are any cities served by an AA carrier?
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
SunValley
Posts: 674
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:51 am

RE: More Fear-Mongering Re: Wright Amendment

Fri Jul 29, 2005 2:28 am

AA and their tactics. The other night I flew into DFW on AA, and got there 19 minutes early, so we had to wait onboard for 28 minutes cause our gate was occupied. I think AA should lease a few more of those empty gates at DFW that they are inviting WN to occupy.

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